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UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

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UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
Reciprocating Bill is worse than a kid before Christmas. If he can't open his presents when he wants then they do not exist. Reciprocating Bill, YOUR inability or unwillingness to go through the process step-by-step suggests that you have an agenda. And your actions throughout demonstrate that at least part of that agenda is obfuscation.Joe
November 20, 2012
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UB:
It’s amazing that you consider this a win for your defense.
It establishes that semiotic theory as you have articulated has nothing to say regarding causal origins of the phenomenon in question, just as you state above. Your inability or unwillingness to address the following...
What does “a semiotic state” (and therefore the presence of “the entailments” and the TRI) entail that the contemporary understanding of the physiochemical interactions evident in the transcription of DNA into proteins does not?
Suggests that it offers no other usable, testable implications as well, and therefore has no other empirical uses.Reciprocating Bill
November 20, 2012
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Onlooker, let’s build on your own words and understanding.
You know what Jesus said about building on sand. onlooker's words and understanding are no less shifting.Mung
November 20, 2012
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Onlooker, let's build on your own words and understanding.
this means that the protein that ultimately is synthesized after transcription produces mRNA is arbitrary with respect to the original DNA since there is no direct physical connection between the two.
It's wonderful that you have so clearly articulated the essential characteristic you've been asking for. The relationship between the representation and the effect it produces within the system is "materially arbitrary". D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism. "no direct physical connection between the two". - - - - - - - This fits nicely with: "That mapping is context specific, not an inexorable law" (Aug 21) ...and... "The word “arbitrary” is used in the sense that there is no material or physical connection between the representational arrangement and the effect it evokes (i.e. the word “apple” written on a piece of paper evokes the recall of a particular fruit in an observer, but that recall has nothing whatsoever to do with wood pulp, ink dye, or solvent).” (Aug 30) ...and... "You ask about a mechanism. The issue of the representation being materially arbitrary to its effect does not address any proposed mechanism which may establish that relationship within a system. It does not address (in one way or another) whether a potential mechanism is purely law-based, or contains stochastic or other non-deterministic elements, or otherwise – it simply acknowledges that the relationship between the representation and its effect is not a matter of inexorable law. You cannot derive one from the other (without the system)". (Oct 4) - - - - - - - - Will you be posting your long-awaited rebuttal now?Upright BiPed
November 20, 2012
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onlooker:
Based on these two, the most succinct definition I could come up with is: D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism.
And just what is it you think that defines?Mung
November 20, 2012
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Upright BiPed:
You’ll need a transition from pure determinism to a system built upon an arbitrary relationship between objects that never interact. All unguided by the investigator.
But since you cannot show that it could not possibly be the case that a transition from pure determinism to a system built upon an arbitrary relationship between objects that never interact could take place, you lose. Besides, a stochastic system could do it.Mung
November 20, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill @ 1061 So?Mung
November 20, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
And all this was done, of course, while you played the “granting arguendo” card (which is code “oh shit” in the Materialism vs Design debate). I didn’t play that game then. I’m not playing it now either.
I don't see that as a game, nor as any kind of code. While I'm still interested in understanding the details of your argument, Reciprocating Bill has touched on an important question that you avoided answering repeatedly when you were commenting on The Skeptical Zone: How, exactly, does your argument support ID?onlooker
November 20, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
"The word “arbitrary” is used in the sense that there is no material or physical connection between the representational arrangement and the effect it evokes (i.e. the word "apple" written on a piece of paper evokes the recall of a particular fruit in an observer, but that recall has nothing whatsoever to do with wood pulp, ink dye, or solvent)." Yet, you have refused for the past 40 days to articulate what you find ambiguous about this description, preferring to sling insults instead.
Not true. As noted repeatedly, I based my questions on your statement you quoted here and on this one:
3. If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).
Based on these two, the most succinct definition I could come up with is: D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism. I then, again repeatedly, asked some questions about it: Is this really what you mean? It doesn't feel quite right to me because your example of a word triggering a memory does involve a physical process of observing the written word, the automatic firing of neural connections, and the retrieval of memories from a physical brain. Is your definition of "arbitrary" referring to the fact that this is a multistep process? Now, based on the rest of your comment, I have some optimism that we can progress the discussion.
You continue to insist that I include a mechanism in this description, even as you refuse all examples which would illustrate that a mechanism is not germane to the definition.
I think this is a red herring. I'm not asking you to specify a mechanism, I am asking if what you mean by the word "arbitrary" refers to the lack of a direct physical mechanism. If you would simply answer my questions directly, this wouldn't be an issue.
So I can now only ask: What do you mean by “Not connected by any direct physical mechanism”? If you can explain what you mean in a way that I can understand it, then I will be able to answer your question as to whether or not it applies to my argument.
Excellent. Let's make some progress. It appears that what you are ultimately trying to claim is that protein synthesis in a cell (transcription and translation) is a semiotic process, by your definition of "semiotic". It further appears that it is important to your argument that some aspect of a semiotic process is "arbitrary". Given the examples you've provided, the best understanding I can come up with of what you mean by "arbitrary" is that the process involves multiple steps and there is no component in the system that controls those steps explicitly. If I understand your meaning, and I am not confident I do, this means that the protein that ultimately is synthesized after transcription produces mRNA is arbitrary with respect to the original DNA since there is no direct physical connection between the two. So, does my proposed definition: D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism. reflect how you use the word in your argument? If not, what essential characteristics does it lack? Does a process being composed of multiple steps make it arbitrary?onlooker
November 20, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill,
What I have is your admission that it does not follow from semiotic theory that a particular class of mechanism is required to give rise to (cause, create) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic system. Therefore, it does not follow from semiotic theory that only design, agency, intelligence etc. can give rise to such systems.
Correct, I did not assume any conclusions in the observation of evidence. Excellent.
What I also have is your further admission that it does not follow from semiotic theory that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state. Therefore, it does not follow from semiotic theory that unguided processes cannot give rise to such systems.
Ditto. It's amazing that you consider this a win for your defense.
And, flat fact: what I have is your admission that it is false that “the observed physical entailments of information transfer is beyond even a conceptual unguided process". That is false.
You'll need a transition from pure determinism to a system built upon an arbitrary relationship between objects that never interact. All unguided by the investigator. Good luck on that.
No wonder you avoided answering my questions regarding causation from July 17 to November 12:
Yes, you implied a massive refutation going back for months based on faulty logic, circularity, and anything else one might imagine. That all came crashing down in June. So in July you began to ask "Well, what does this all mean anyway!?". Hilarious. And all this was done, of course, while you played the "granting arguendo" card (which is code "oh shit" in the Materialism vs Design debate). I didn't play that game then. I'm not playing it now either.Upright BiPed
November 20, 2012
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What we have here is Reciprocating Bill admitting that his position has absolutely nothing. IOW it is obvious that “the observed physical entailments of information transfer is beyond even a conceptual unguided process.” Otherwise RB would be posting evidence.Joe
November 20, 2012
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UB:
It’s too late in the game to be indefinite, Bill. You either have something or you don’t.
What I have is your admission that it does not follow from semiotic theory that a particular class of mechanism is required to give rise to (cause, create) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic system. Therefore, it does not follow from semiotic theory that only design, agency, intelligence etc. can give rise to such systems. What I also have is your further admission that it does not follow from semiotic theory that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state. Therefore, it does not follow from semiotic theory that unguided processes cannot give rise to such systems. And, flat fact: what I have is your admission that it is false that "the observed physical entailments of information transfer is beyond even a conceptual unguided process." That is false. No wonder you avoided answering my questions regarding causation from July 17 to November 12:
Upright Biped, please tell us what class of mechanisms you, or semiotic theory, assert is required to create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state.  Also, please tell us what class of mechanisms you, or semiotic theory, claim cannot create the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state?
http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/?p=1108&cpage=1#comment-14933 So, UB, why not cut to the chase and tell us where this all goes? Granting arguendo your argument and conclusion above, where does it go? At TSZ I asked you (about 20 times) what “a semiotic state” entails that “the transfer of recorded information” does not. I now restate that question in a slightly more generalized form that should be easier for you to answer: What does “a semiotic state” (and therefore the presence of “the entailments” and the TRI) entail that the contemporary understanding of the physiochemical interactions evident in the transcription of DNA into proteins does not? Here are some things you have already stated do NOT follow upon identifying a system as semiotic: - It does not follow that the system must have had intelligent or agentic origins. - It does not follow that the system could not have arisen by unguided means. What, then, what DOES necessarily follow? What DOES follow from characterizing the transcription of DNA as “a semiotic state” as you describe it that does not follow from a description of the physiochemical interactions evident in the transcription of DNA? Absent any further description of what follows from declaring “a semiotic state,” it really doesn’t much matter whether your “observations” and “logic” above are correct or not. They simply don’t go anywhere.Reciprocating Bill
November 20, 2012
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Toronto:
My “bricks” and “corks” transferred information regarding their mass, without a “material representation”.
No they didn't.
Your defence of Upright’s “theory” is to agree that it doesn’t do anything?
No attack was launched, no defense was required.
Despite not studying physics, only an ignorant caveman would make his raft out of rocks instead of cork after seeing that.
But if all you've got are rocks...
A ship will displace X mass of water depending on the thickness of the hull and the volume of space in the hull.
How much information would it displace?
If the hull was solid, a ship built of material with greater mass than water, would sink.
Unlike a ship built with a hull full of holes.
Upright’s argument has been refuted as no “representation of matter” was required for the transfer of information, in this case, that corks have less mass than bricks.
Really big corks have more mass than really small bricks.
No language, no protocol and no pre-existing information was required.
No information is required to float a brick. Agreed. So information about mass was transferred, but that was with no concept of mass, or brick, or cork, or water. Got it.Mung
November 19, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill at 1034, I was correct in my earlier assessment; your answers are an unspoken acknowledgement that you have no refutation to offer. As is ‘par for the course’, this is skillfully cloaked in stoic, face-saving, obfuscation. It’s too late in the game to be indefinite, Bill. You either have something or you don’t. And you don’t. The only thing of any substance in your response is the question of differing kinds of information. You mention this as a part of your response to both questions. Yet this is nothing more than a lingering attempt to add pointless ambiguity to an otherwise coherent (and unrefuted) understanding of the systems in action. You did not (and cannot) make a case for it. The word “apple” (spoken or written) is an arrangement of matter that evokes a specified effect within a system. The grooves on a vinyl record are an arrangement of matter that evokes a specified effect within a system. The chemical make-up of a particular pheromone is an arrangement of matter that evokes a specified effect within a system. There are untold numbers of differing kinds of information transfer, and they are each transferred within untold numbers of differing kinds of systems. Each of these systems has the capacity to react to the transfer, and produce specified effects. Some transfers of information result in us knowing what an actor is saying on the stage, so that we may follow along the plotline in the play. Some transfers of information result in the perfect milling of parts to be used in a machine of some kind. Some transfers make the doe stop to feed her young when they gesture for it. Some coordinate individual bacteria cells to attack a host at a particular point in time. Some cause relays, gates, and pumps within our municipal systems to switch and operate on order to maintain our cities. Others cause specific amino acids to be added to growing polypeptides in our cells. In each and every one of these cases there is an arrangement of matter evoking a response within the system, and a second arrangement of matter to establish what that response will be. The fact that you’d like to refer to some of these as “signals”, and others as “representations”, and others as “symbols” in entirely superfluous and unnecessary to the material function of the systems involved. Your personal language preferences are moot at the material level, and it is at that material level where the observations and the descriptions are made. There have now been tens of thousands of words between us on this matter, and you are down to making distinctions that present to no difference whatsoever in the systems at issue. My argument stands. As for Elizabeth Liddle: Dr Liddle had been on UD for quite some time making lots of claims she was unable to back up. She had suggested that she could write a simulation causing the rise of information using any definition of “information” that an ID proponent wanted to use. She accepted that challenge, and then recanted after she discovered that information had real world material consequences which she would have to deliver in order to falsify the ID claim. She not only failed to falsify the ID claim, but ended up supporting it. Here is a highly compressed assortment of highpoints from the conversation where she was given the argument (using the same general observations which you also cannot refute):
EL: …my position is that IDists have failed to demonstrate that what they consider the signature of intentional design is not also the signature of Darwinian evolutionary processes. EL: I simply do not accept the tenet that replication with modification + natural selection cannot introduce “new information” into the genome. It demonstrably can, IMO, on any definition of information I am aware of. UB: Neo-Darwinism doesn’t have a mechanism to bring information into existence in the first place. To speak freely of what it can do with information once it exists, is to ignore the 600lbs assumption in the room. EL: Well, tell me what definition of information you are using, and I’ll see if I can demonstrate that it can. EL: What makes it information, I think we agreed, is when it is not the objects themselves, but a arrangement of those objects that produces the specific effects. As, for example, when a codon produces an amino acid, not because the nucleotides themselves produce this effect, but because the arrangement of the nucleotides produce this effect. EL: I claimed that ID claims that information (by any definition ID proponents wish to use) cannot be generated by Darwinian processes, or indeed Chance and Necessity, can be demonstrated to be false. EL: I freely conceded that I could not make good on your challenge. My original claim assumed a different definition of information from the one you have asked me to use.
…and later
UB: (regarding heritable information) …you’ll need a source of symbolic representations and transfer protocols operating in a coordinated system. The rise of formalism doesn’t come cheap. EL: You know, Upright BiPed, you are absolutely right! Darwinian evolution doesn’t explain how replication with heritable variation in reproductive success first came into being!
Of course, she never recanted her false claim about ID’s ability to proffer an argument that Darwinian evolution could not also explain. She could only be forced to imply she didn’t really understand the argument (although the record shows she came to understand it fully. Frankly, she may wish you to stop reliving the moment for her. I join her in that wish. Elizabeth’s unfortunate learning curve was made public on this forum by her own claims against ID, and it was then made drastically more pronounced by her unwillingness to accept what was being shown to her. Why don’t you people just leave it alone? As for your specific comment regarding Dr Liddle, you already know full well that the semiotic argument I have presented doesn’t address the source of the semiosis, no more than the fire tetrahedron tells you who or what started a fire. Like the fire tetrahedron, it tells you what is materially required for the effect to occurUpright BiPed
November 19, 2012
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Toronto doesn’t care what the facts are. He only wants to get a response.
From now on I'm going to call that "floating a brick" in his honor.Mung
November 19, 2012
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Mung at 1051,
quoting Toronto: "The bottom line is bricks sink and corks float and that informs you of their mass relative to water, without any “representation instantiated in matter”.
Geeez. It is inconceivable that this guy is still trying to sell this line. He says information has been transferred when you see the bricks sink and the corks float. But when these things are seen, is it ‘sinking bricks’ and ‘floating corks’ traveling through the optical nerve to the brain? Or is it a transcribed representation of those objects which will then be translated into a usable cognition by a material protocol in the visual cortex? This objection is now six or seven versions old… (each one answered to him with the same facts)
Toronto: May17th Go to a barbershop anywhere in the world and get a haircut … the information regarding the success of your haircut will be transferred through your eyes and into your brain … No protocol, no code, no semiotic process of any kind involved … Imagine that a stray photon hits my face and bounces off a mirror into my eye… etc etc etc
Toronto doesn’t care what the facts are. He only wants to get a response.Upright BiPed
November 19, 2012
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tonto:
Upright’s argument has been refuted as no “representation of matter” was required for the transfer of information, in this case, that corks have less mass than bricks.
Umm the brick, matter, sinks through water, also matter. So the representation of the sinking of one piece of matter through another, would be "a representation of matter required for the transfer of information"- and actually it would just be data, not information, that was/ would be transferred.
No language, no protocol and no pre-existing information was required.
That is false. In order to make information out of the data, pre-existing information is required. And I could make a brick that floats and a rock that flaots. Heck according to you evos anyone who walks on a frozen lake is floating on water. So I went to a frozen lake, tossed a brick and a cork on it and neither sank. You lose, tonto.Joe
November 19, 2012
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The bottom line is bricks sink and corks float and that informs you of their mass relative to water, without any “representation instantiated in matter”.”
Joe: Nope. You already have to have that information. toronto:
No you don’t, any more than an accountant “already” has the information that Rice Crispies cost more than a Popsicle, simply by virtue of being educated as an accountant.
Nice non-sequitur tardgasm, there, toronto. And a popsicle can cost more than Rice Crispies, so what? An ignorant person would nave no idea why the brick sank nor why the cork floats. Therefor no information was transferred. If that experiment is conducted in front of a totally ignorant person, such as yourself, they wouldn’t have any clue as to what happened nor why.
Despite not studying physics, only an ignorant caveman would make his raft out of rocks instead of cork after seeing that.
Humans make ships out of heavy-than-water concrete.Joe
November 19, 2012
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...and it is entertaining.
It is that.Mung
November 19, 2012
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toronto chokes:
The bottom line is bricks sink and corks float and that informs you of their mass relative to water, without any “representation instantiated in matter”.
Nope. You already have to have that information. If that experiment is conducted in front of a totally ignorant person, such as yourself, they wouldn't have any clue as to what happened nor why. But please keep grasping at straws. It exposes your desperation and it is entertaining.Joe
November 19, 2012
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Reciprocating Billy:
So far as I am concerned, the fat lady sang vis Upright’s semiotic theory during this exchange:
The fat lady sang a long time ago vis YOUR position and the semiotic theory. Ya see Billy YOU still don't have any evidence that unguided evolution can do it. I take it that it bothers you that your position has nothing...Joe
November 19, 2012
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Toronto:
The bottom line is bricks sink and corks float and that informs you of their mass relative to water, without any “representation instantiated in matter”.
According to your logic, anything with mass greater than a brick should sink. But ships with a greater mass than a brick float. So much for your logic.Mung
November 18, 2012
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keiths:
How is this relevant to whether Upright’s argument is wrong?
And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information. This evidence demonstrates a central prediction of ID – that the genome is a semiotic process. It also demonstrates the most prolific example of irreducible complexity in the natural world. And also that, using Darwin’s own standard, evolution is incapable of establishing that process. keiths:
How is this relevant to whether Upright’s argument is wrong?
For someone who hasn't been following along, it probably isn't. But the statements and 'arguments' of someone who hasn't been following along are likewise irrelevant.Mung
November 18, 2012
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keiths:
Mung, You are amusingly predictable.
You're a predictable liar and there's nothing amusing about it.
2) that you wouldn’t bother to actually understand what the article says.
Which article? Do you think your google search returned only one article?
1) you would find that title irresistible, and that you would cherry-pick it for no other reason,
So you knew your search would return more than one result? So "the article" refers to which article? And you knew I would cherry pick that one article? But the facts show that I actually looked at at least two articles. So much for your powers of prognostication.
I was right on both counts.
You were right on neither count.
Second, the article states:
Which article? The search returned more than one result.
To make a successful argument for ID based on this idea, you would need to show that Shapiro’s hypothetical system of cross-replicating molecules was too complex to have arisen via unguided natural processes. Have at it.
By your own admission, such challenges are not objective. Come up with an objective falsification and we'll listen. How does one even begin to falsify the claim that a hypothetical system of cross-replicating molecules was too complex to have arisen via unguided natural processes? Have at it.Mung
November 18, 2012
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The TSZ Motto: "He can't prove that I can't imagine that I might be right and he might be wrong, therefore..."Mung
November 18, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill:
In his above exchange with me he clearly indicates that it does not follow from semiotic theory that the entailments of information transfer are beyond even a conceptual unguided process.
So? Once again the 'critic' retreats behind the non-objective "if you can't prove me wrong" excuse. Is that what it means to be a skeptic these days? If you can't prove me wrong I must not be wrong?Mung
November 18, 2012
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Toronto:
Toronto:
Upright’s “Semiotic Theory” is really a “Semiotic Labeling Theory” where he points out labels used in understanding human language and communications, and mapping them onto biology.
So? You have a theory of labeling not dependent upon human language and communications? Toronto:
His “theory” ends right after the labeling is done but before any analysis or conclusions are reached.
So? Toronto:
I also have a theory that’s just as useful where I apply labels to ID as in, “The Genesis Theory Of ID”.
Great theory. So?Mung
November 18, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill:
Granting arguendo your argument and conclusion above, where does it go?
It goes straight to the heart. Why would you grant an argument which has been claimed to be incoherent? Why would you grant an argument of which it is asserted that the premises are false?
Granting arguendo your argument and conclusion above, where does it go?
I take it that you, along with so many others from TSZ, are not able to refute it. So you, like so many others from TSZ, have to take a different approach to the argument, one that does not address the facts, the evidence, or the argument itself.
I have no opinion vis this question.
Is that because you are just ignorant of the science?Mung
November 18, 2012
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When you return, UB, why not cut to the chase and tell us where this all goes? Granting arguendo your argument and conclusion above, where does it go? Your argument is essentially that the "material evidence" establishes that the transcription of DNA into proteins is an instance of the transfer of recorded information, and therefore exhibits "the entailments" of the TRI, by which you mean the universally necessary and sufficient conditions for the transfer of recorded information. Those necessarily also confirm "a semiotic state." At TSZ I asked you (about 20 times) what "a semiotic state" entails that "the transfer of recorded information" does not. It was a question motivated by the same puzzlement that motivates this post. Your replies were non-responsive reproductions of the definitions of "the TRI" and "a semiotic state" that failed to address the question. I now restate that question in a slightly more generalized form that should be easier for you to answer. What does "a semiotic state" (and therefore the presence of "the entailments" and the TRI) entail that a contemporary understanding of the physiochemical interactions evident in the transcription of DNA into proteins does not? Here are some things you have already unambiguously stated do NOT follow upon identifying the system as semiotic: - It does not follow that the system must have had intelligent or agentic origins (including living agents). - It does not follow that the system could not have arisen by unguided means. Then, what DOES necessarily follow? What DOES follow from characterizing the transcription of DNA as "a semiotic state" that does not follow from a description of the physiochemical interactions evident in the transcription of DNA? Absent any further description of what follows from declaring "a semiotic state," it really doesn't much matter whether your "observations" and "logic" above are correct or not. They don't go anywhere.Reciprocating Bill
November 18, 2012
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I see Bill's answer. It looks like a non answer, or rather, an answer in the negative. I'll return later to respond. I don't have time now. I'm off to Turn One Row Six of the Formula One US Gran Prix. CheersUpright BiPed
November 18, 2012
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