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UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

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UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
onlooker- Please tell us about this physical law that determines which codon encodes for which amino acid. Or stuff it because you are only exposing your ignorance. But that doesn't matter to an anonymous, insipid troll...Joe
October 26, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
In any case, my usage of the term “physical law” does not differ from any definition found in a standard reference text.
Okay, let's go back to your original statement then:
The relationship between the representation and its material effect is context specific; not reducible to physical law (regardless of any mechanism proposed as the origin of the system)".
This conflicts with what you write in the paragraph numbered 9:
Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.
You seem to want to claim that some part of the transcription process is "arbitrary" by your yet to be clarified definition. However, you note that binding is dependent on "physical structures". How is that not "reducible to physical law" by your definition? And if it is "reducible to physical law" it can't be "arbitrary" as you use the word. I'd rather not skip ahead before understanding the rest of your argument, but your obviously fear-based reluctance to actually define your terms and articulate your premises clearly requires that I do so if any progress is to be made in this discussion.onlooker
October 26, 2012
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lol. the return of 'onlooker' I think we need a new name for this obvious troll. Now it doesn't know what is mean by a physical law and thinks that every thing that occurs must be caused by some physical law or other and therefore can be reduced to a physical law, all while arguing it doesn't know what a physical law is. So here's what I recommend. It can help to define what a term means in terms of what it does not means. So allow onlooker to pose questions to which you will give a yes or no answer, and nothing more. Here, let me hlep: Do you, by the term physical law, mean anything that could possibly cause a physical effect? Example: The effect of the specific character sequence in onlookers post. Caused by physical law?Mung
October 25, 2012
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Good grief. Now you don’t know what a physical law is?
I’m trying to understand how you are using the term in your argument. From what you’ve written thus far, I don’t know what you mean.
I think the argument in the OP is better suited to those people who have previously comprehended what a "physical law" is. I believe people generally understand that the invisible forces of gravity caused Newton's apple to fall to the ground, and that electromagnetic forces lift a paper clip to a magnet held above it. Others understand that the negatively charged electrons of one atom may attract the positively charged protons of another, forming the basis of a chemical bond. In any case, my usage of the term "physical law" does not differ from any definition found in a standard reference text. Given that fact, you will need to articulate what you do not understand.Upright BiPed
October 25, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
Good grief. Now you don’t know what a physical law is?
I'm trying to understand how you are using the term in your argument. From what you've written thus far, I don't know what you mean. I certainly don't know what could possibly cause a physical effect without being a "physical law". Please provide a definition of what you mean by that term in your argument.
And if you only knew what people meant when they used terms like “physical law” you could then articulate the long promised refutation of the argument in the OP? Is that the case?
Oh, we're nowhere near that point yet. Due to your continued reluctance to actually explain what you're trying to say, you've still got nothing but word salad. Perhaps we'll get to the point of an actual argument when you decide to define your terms and clarify your claims as I've repeatedly asked.onlooker
October 25, 2012
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what do you mean by “physical law”?
Good grief. Now you don't know what a physical law is? And if you only knew what people meant when they used terms like "physical law" you could then articulate the long promised refutation of the argument in the OP? Is that the case?Upright BiPed
October 25, 2012
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Upright BiPed, Real life work has been interfering with my online time. My apologies for the delay.
Onlooker:… I have two questions. First, does "law" mean a fully deterministic mechanism or would a stochastic mechanism be covered by that term? UB: You ask about a mechanism. The issue of the representation being materially arbitrary to its effect does not address any proposed mechanism which may establish that relationship within a system. It does not address (in one way or another) whether a potential mechanism is purely law-based, or contains stochastic or other non-deterministic elements, or otherwise – it simply acknowledges that the relationship between the representation and its effect is not a matter of inexorable law. You cannot derive one from the other (without the system).
That's a lot of words to avoid answering a simple yes or no question. To refresh your memory, you made the statement:
The relationship between the representation and its material effect is context specific; not reducible to physical law (regardless of any mechanism proposed as the origin of the system)".
What, exactly, do you mean by "not reducible to physical law"? More specifically, what do you mean by "physical law"? This seems to be at the heart of some of your claims, so it's important to understand it in order to understand your larger argument. Can you give an example of something outside of biology that is "not reducible to physical law"? You have also failed to respond to my questions about your definition of the word "arbitrary". Consider this definition: D3. Arbitrary: Not established by a deterministic mechanism. Is that how you use the word in your argument? If not, what essential characteristics does that definition lack? If you are genuinely interested in making your argument intelligible, you will answer these questions directly.onlooker
October 25, 2012
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Defn 31: arbitrary - not not arbitraryMung
October 23, 2012
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onlooker, were the words you've decided to argue over chosen arbitrarily? You've got your hollow victory. Why are you back?Mung
October 19, 2012
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Onlooker, When you are able to articulate an ambiguity in the definition given for the term "materially arbitrary": "The relationship between the representation and its material effect is context specific; not reducible to physical law (regardless of any mechanism proposed as the origin of the system)" I will be happy to address it.Upright BiPed
October 19, 2012
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Onlooker,
D3?. Arbitrary: Not established by a deterministic mechanism. Is that how you use the word in your argument? If not, what essential characteristics does that definition lack? Also, what do you mean by “reducible to physical law”? Is a stochastic process a “physical law”?
You brought this new round of questions up on Oct 4th. Your question was immediately addressed within two hours on Oct 4th. You then completely ignored that repsonse on the 6th, and then again on the 10th, and then again on the 12th. So I repeated the repsonse on the 12th, which you subsequently ignored on the 16th, and yet again today, the 19th. I will repeat my response now, in the hope that you wil stop ignoring it.
October 4th Onlooker:… I have two questions. First, does “law” mean a fully deterministic mechanism or would a stochastic mechanism be covered by that term? UB: You ask about a mechanism. The issue of the representation being materially arbitrary to its effect does not address any proposed mechanism which may establish that relationship within a system. It does not address (in one way or another) whether a potential mechanism is purely law-based, or contains stochastic or other non-deterministic elements, or otherwise – it simply acknowledges that the relationship between the representation and its effect is not a matter of inexorable law. You cannot derive one from the other (without the system).
Upright BiPed
October 19, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
You have yet to provide a precise definition of “arbitrary” sufficient to allow one to parse your statement
That is your assertion, which has long since grown stale. The fact remains, you have been given an unambiguous definition: "The relationship between the representation and its material effect is context specific; not reducible to physical law (regardless of any mechanism proposed as the origin of the system)".
You are still failing to answer the questions I asked, repeatedly, in response to that definition. In order to verify my understanding, I have attempted to rephrase your definition to reflect what I think you might mean: D3'. Arbitrary: Not established by a deterministic mechanism. Is that how you use the word in your argument? If not, what essential characteristics does that definition lack? Also, what do you mean by "reducible to physical law"? Is a stochastic process a "physical law"? Let's get these out of the way, and then perhaps I'll be able to parse your prose.onlooker
October 19, 2012
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850 and still waiting...Mung
October 18, 2012
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no intelligent life was harmed during the making of this threadMung
October 17, 2012
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No laws of physics are violated in the programming of configurable switches. Yet the effects of the particular functional settings of these configurable switches cannot be reduced to laws and constraints. - David L. AbleMung
October 16, 2012
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Formalisms are governed by arbitrarily written rules, not by inescapable physicodynamic laws. The word "arbitrary" is often confused with "random." In a cybernetic context, arbitrary refers to choice contingency in the sense that no selection is constrained by cause-and-effect determinism. Neither is it forced by external formal controls. The choice at any decision node is uncoerced by necessity. But it is not just contingent (could occur in multiple ways despite the orderliness described by the laws of physics). David L. AbelMung
October 16, 2012
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onlooker:
Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism.
FAIL onlooker:
Arbitrary: In one configuration of many possible configurations.
FAILMung
October 16, 2012
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indeed 845 and counting ...Mung
October 16, 2012
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Mung, When Onlooker refused to enage in any examples of the word "arbitrary" (like the one you gave, or the ones I had given earlier in the conversation) he demonstrated that his position simply cannot afford to do so. For him to enter into an genuine discussion of examples and illustrations would quickly corner him into revealing that he already knows what the word "arbitrary" means. He must remain silent on the issue. And if you'll look back across the conversation, you'll see that he never actually engages in any descriptive contexts of the word for this very specific reason. Instead, he attempts to shuffle the words around, and offer alternatives, without ever stating in any meaningful way whatsoever "why" new words and alternatives are needed in the first place. Its all tactical, and not the least bit substantive. Of course, the ultimate reason for all of this gamesmanship is that he can think of no way whatsoever to refute the argument given at the top of the page. It is the evidence itself that beats him. He must therefore remain silent on the actual issues, while he slings insults under the pretense of trying to understand. As I said earlier, its a sorry-assed way to have to support your worldview. Better him than me.Upright BiPed
October 16, 2012
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Configurable switches represent decision nodes and logic gates. They are set according to arbitrary rules, not laws. Here arbitrary does not mean random. Arbitrary means "not physicodynamically determined, but freely chosen." Arbitrary means "freely selectable" - choice contingent. - David L. Abel onlooker:
Arbitrary: Not established by a deterministic mechanism.
FAIL onlooker:
Arbitrary: Not established by a deterministic mechanism operating within the system under consideration.
FAIL onlooker:
Arbitrary: Not reducible to law in any context.
FAIL What a freaking moron.Mung
October 16, 2012
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Consider a bank of light switches. Pushing a switch to the up position turns on a set of lights. Pushing it to the down position turns off the same set of lights. Pushing a different switch to the up position turns on a different set of lights. That pushing the light switch up should turn on the light rather than having the lights come on when pushing it down is arbitrary. Which lights are controlled by which switch is arbitrary. The fact that onlooker cannot incorporate these concepts into a simple definition of arbitrary displays a certain lack of mental acuity. onlooker:
Unless and until you do answer those questions, any claim that your argument supports ID, or makes any sense at all, would be both incorrect and dishonest.
From the fact that you're ignorant and dishonest it does not follow that everyone else is too. Enjoy your rhetorical 'victory.' You don't get to claim it for everyone. It belongs to you and you alone.Mung
October 16, 2012
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Onlooker,
You have yet to provide a precise definition of “arbitrary” sufficient to allow one to parse your statement
That is your assertion, which has long since grown stale. The fact remains, you have been given an unambiguous definition: "The relationship between the representation and its material effect is context specific; not reducible to physical law (regardless of any mechanism proposed as the origin of the system)". If you are unable to present an example of ambiguity in that definition, then your complaint has no merit. The ball is in your court. Can you substantiate your assertion?Upright BiPed
October 16, 2012
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onlooker:
Unless and until you do answer those questions, any claim that your argument supports ID, or makes any sense at all, would be both incorrect and dishonest.
Upright BiPed's argument both makes sense and the observations support ID, and your objections to it are completely arbitrary.Mung
October 16, 2012
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Joe (838):
Any and all claims you make are totally meaningless and amount to your pissing in the wind, as it were.
Upwind or downwind?Jerad
October 16, 2012
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onlooker, Any and all claims you make are totally meaningless and amount to your pissing in the wind, as it were. Thankfully all objective onlookers see that.Joe
October 16, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
Your battery of questions have been answered over and over again
No, they haven't. You have yet to provide a precise definition of "arbitrary" sufficient to allow one to parse your statement that
If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents.
This appears to be essential to your argument, yet you repeatedly refuse to even attempt to clarify it. I suspect that the reason for this is that you fear that clarity will make the flaws in your argument obvious. It's evidently much better, from your point of view, to be incoherent than to risk being proven wrong. I'll keep monitoring this thread in the hopes that you'll develop some intellectual integrity and actually answer the questions I've posed. I won't be holding my breath, though. Unless and until you do answer those questions, any claim that your argument supports ID, or makes any sense at all, would be both incorrect and dishonest.onlooker
October 16, 2012
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836 posts and waiting ...Mung
October 13, 2012
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Onlooker,
If you are interested in people understanding and being able to discuss your argument, you would answer the questions I asked: D3?. Arbitrary: Not established by a deterministic mechanism.
Your battery of questions have been answered over and over again, yet you keep repeating them as if they haven’t. It is no mystery as to why you keep doing so. There is a materially arbitrary relationship between the representation and its resulting effect within a semiotic system. This arbitrary relationship is indeed the very thing that allows the system to operate in the first place. The system cannot logically transfer information without it, and in fact, no instance of information transfer has ever been observed otherwise. Faced with this empirical and logical reality, you desperately want to obfuscate this arbitrary aspect of the system. You have now spent weeks and weeks trying to change the definitions in way which would help you to either assume your own conclusions, or provide you the opportunity to attack me for assuming mine. And when I resist altering my argument to allow this, you then quickly follow up with the absolutely ridiculous pretense that you can’t understand the argument otherwise. But the description of the system is intended only to establish the specific methods of its operation; it is not to be subverted in order to support presumptions.
October 4th Onlooker:… I have two questions. First, does “law” mean a fully deterministic mechanism or would a stochastic mechanism be covered by that term? UB: You ask about a mechanism. The issue of the representation being materially arbitrary to its effect does not address any proposed mechanism which may establish that relationship within a system. It does not address (in one way or another) whether a potential mechanism is purely law-based, or contains stochastic or other non-deterministic elements, or otherwise – it simply acknowledges that the relationship between the representation and its effect is not a matter of inexorable law. You cannot derive one from the other (without the system).
Upright BiPed
October 12, 2012
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D3?. Arbitrary: Not established by a deterministic mechanism.
FAIL
Is that how you use the word in your argument?
NO.
If not, what essential characteristics does that definition lack?
Any connection to reality.
Also, what do you mean by “reducible to physical law”? Is a stochastic process a “physical law”?
That depends on whether the stochastic process is reducible to physical law.Mung
October 12, 2012
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People understand the argument. Only those with an anti-ID agenda don't. And no one cares what you can parse.Joe
October 12, 2012
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