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Uncommon Descent Contest 4: Can we save physics by dumping the Copernican principle? – Winner announced

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The question is here. It looks at “Does Dark Energy Really Exist? Or does Earth occupy a very unusual place in the universe?” by physicist Timothy Clifton and astrophysicist Pedro G. Ferreira, who argue just that: If we give up the Copernican principle, we do not need dark energy to explain the composition of the universe.(Scientific American, March 23, 2009)

The winning entry is by KeithDP:

I liked it because he made a number of pertinent points that less often raised than they should be:

– “The problem with the principle is how do you define special?” The fact that Earth is the only known home of life should cause it to be classified as special, at least for now.

– “Unlike the multiverse, the theory [re the existence or necessity of dark energy] is testable and efforts are underway to confirm or dismiss it.” Indeed. Consider the upcoming SNO+ experiment in Sudbury, Canada, whose awesome facilities I toured recently – which aims to trap a particle of dark matter. That would be a good beginning.

– ” … will we also discover that Earth’s place in the centre of a vast cosmic void is another necessary precondition for life?” That too would be useful, because we could revise current estimates of where to look for life. Too many estimates have been Drake equation-style “choose your own parameters.” Fun, sure, but science fiction.

So KeithDP needs to provide me with a current postal address at oleary@sympatico.ca to receive his free copy of the Privileged Planet DVD.

I will shortly judge Question 5: Darwinian fairy tales: Why middle-aged men have shiny scalps: “What is the down side for serious Darwinists to just cutting the “evolutionary psychology” psychodrama loose, and focusing on what real science can say about evolution?”

Now here is KeithDP’s entry:

Copernicus’ modest proposition was that the solar system is heliocentric and not geocentric. Centuries later came the Copernican principle: the idea that Earth does not occupy any special position in the universe. In the last few decades this principle has been expanded to include the idea that there is nothing special about humans or the Earth. This idea is often called the Copernican principle of mediocrity. In recent years some astronomers have taken the idea further still and have popularized the notion that there is nothing special about our universe, as it is just one among an infinite number of other universes: a multiverse. Although no evidence supports the theory, and as it is not testable no evidence is ever likely to, it is considered the natural and ultimate culmination of the Copernican principle.

The problem with the principle is how do you define special? In the Rare Earth hypothesis, scientists Ward and Brownlee identify no less than a dozen factors that make complex life possible on Earth. In their view these factors make the Earth, if not special, than certainly very rare. Astronomer Guillermo Gonzalez goes further and identifies factors that make the Earth particularly suitable for scientific discovery. In his view the Earth is more than a rare planet; it is a privileged one. Recently some astronomers have questioned the standard model of the universe that holds that at least 70% of the universe is composed of mystery material. They propose this material is unnecessary if we ignore the Copernican principle and assume instead that the Earth lies at or near the centre of a vast cosmic void with far lower density than other regions of space.

Unlike the multiverse, the theory is testable and efforts are underway to confirm or dismiss it. Considering what we have learned about what makes the Earth’s particular location in the solar system and in the galaxy especially suitable for life, will we also discover that Earth’s place in the centre of a vast cosmic void is another necessary precondition for life?

Do we have further need of the Copernican principle? Or is it instead merely a personal philosophical position about humanity’s place? Does it tell us more about the belief system of those who hold it than it does about the universe?

Comments
Hand, “Any school is permitted to “discuss the evidence for agency involvement in life.” Okay, name one. No really, name one. "If, however, that discussion is used to advance a religious agenda, the presentation would run afoul of the First Amendment." As a strategic position; ALL such discussions are attacked in the courts as proselytizing - regardless of the content of the discussion. “Courts have, to date, concluded that the scientific consensus is that there is no objective, scientific evidence for design, and, in each case so far, that the school board’s attempt to pretend otherwise was rooted in their religious beliefs.” 1) Consensus means nothing. (See human history). 2) A scientific conclusion that is amenable to religious belief is not a religious belief. (See the Big Bang). 3) The scientific observation that the sequencing of nucleic acids in DNA is physically inert is not a passage in the Bible. 4) A school board member’s religious belief is irrelevant. “A prudent school board would therefore conclude that an ID-based presentation was a First Amendment violation. I could be wrong, but I believe the Discovery Institute concurs with that conclusion.” 1) The First Amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." No one has ever demonstrated in a court of law that a classroom discussion of the scientific evidence for agency involvement in life impinges on any of the items listed in this clause. 2) A “prudent” school board would not offer science programs that begin with what must be disallowed on ideological grounds. 3) What the Discovery Institute thinks is irrelevant to the issue.Upright BiPed
June 22, 2009
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Have you been under a rock since for the past 200 years? No, but I spent several of them in law school. When someone claims that there are laws "seeking to codify that Life came about by spontaneous generation," and "seeking to control and limit the public behavoir of all people," it occurs to me that I have never seen or heard of such a law. Nor have you identified any. Can you please provide an estimate to the number of public schools in this country that are legally allowed even to discuss the evidence for agency involvement in life? Depending on how one reads your question, the answer is either zero or all of them. Any school is permitted to "discuss the evidence for agency involvement in life." If, however, that discussion is used to advance a religious agenda, the presentation would run afoul of the First Amendment. Courts have, to date, concluded that the scientific consensus is that there is no objective, scientific evidence for design, and, in each case so far, that the school board's attempt to pretend otherwise was rooted in their religious beliefs. A prudent school board would therefore conclude that an ID-based presentation was a First Amendment violation. I could be wrong, but I believe the Discovery Institute concurs with that conclusion. Don’t mind me if I decide not to hang around to argue over the historically obvious. Alright.Learned Hand
June 22, 2009
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Hand, Have you been under a rock since for the past 200 years? Actually, I often tend to steer clear of these arguments - simply because they are a sideshow to the evidence for agency involvement in Life. But let's imagine that going to a public school or sending your children to a public school is a behavior of a citizen. Can you please provide an estimate to the number of public schools in this country that are legally allowed even to discuss the evidence for agency involvement in life? How many are allowed to discuss any problems with the current paradigm? How many are allowed to use textbooks that promote the empirically appropriate (and agnostic) stance on the question of how life arose and came to be as we see it today? How many science programs can legally state that there is anything to debate at all? Don’t hold back Learned Hand…let the sideshow begin. Don’t mind me if I decide not to hang around to argue over the historically obvious.Upright BiPed
June 22, 2009
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PaulBurnett, "The preposterously arrogant hubris of this concept is almost mortally impossible to comprehend." This is your response to Gonzales's hypothesis that the earth is the center of all things etc. You're the only one being irrational. Gonzales is hypothesizing and testing, isn't that what you're supposed to do when faced with unknowns? What if he's right? Is there any evidence against it? Part of the Atheist naturalist paradigm is: Answers must be mundane, our present agreed upon concept of mundane. Human's, or spirits, MUST be not allowed to have an important role in ANYTHING, at all costs. Yet no ultimate answers have been found to base this on. I bet some answers are totally bonkers. Once you attack hubris, you're on the hubris to null scale, of your own invention. So all truths will be found to contain in them the opposite of hubris?lamarck
June 22, 2009
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1) Hubris in modern action is seeking to codify into the Laws of a free nation (thereby seeking to control and limit the public behavoir of all people under that Law) that Life came about by spontaneous generation, while not having even a shred of positive evidence for the claim - and then ignoring by choice any evidence to the contrary. This is a baffling comment. What laws, existing or proposed, would "codify . . . that Life came about by spontaneous generation," or even attempt to "limit the public behavior of all people"?Learned Hand
June 22, 2009
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Paul, watching your posts has been amusing to say the least. 1) Hubris in modern action is seeking to codify into the Laws of a free nation (thereby seeking to control and limit the public behavoir of all people under that Law) that Life came about by spontaneous generation, while not having even a shred of positive evidence for the claim - and then ignoring by choice any evidence to the contrary. 2) Persons who beleive that man and woman are the creation of a God should be expected to give thanks for those things that sustain them (such as a river). This is an action that hardly needs an authority to police, but is far more personal for those who beleive in such things. You will find these concepts throughout human history and across all cultures. Yet, you stand here shaking your fist at their stupidity and using words like hubris to describe them. 3) Mr Pot meet Mr Kettle.Upright BiPed
June 22, 2009
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To back up my assertion that the odds are getting far worse for the materialist, this following paper came out very recently: New Definition Could Further Limit Habitable Zones Around Distant Suns: - June 2009 ... liquid water is essential for life, but a planet also must have plate tectonics to pull excess carbon from its atmosphere and confine it in rocks to prevent runaway greenhouse warming. Tectonics, or the movement of the plates that make up a planet's surface, typically is driven by radioactive decay in the planet's core, but a star's gravity can cause tides in the planet, which creates more energy to drive plate tectonics.... Barnes added, "The bottom line is that tidal forcing is an important factor that we are going to have to consider when looking for habitable planets." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090610124831.htmbornagain77
June 22, 2009
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(What evidence is found for the earth's ability to support life?) we will consider many "life-enabling characteristics" for the galaxy, sun, moon and earth that establishes the earth as extremely unique for hosting advanced life in this universe. Again, the presumption of materialistic blind chance being the only reasonable cause must be dealt with. As opposed to the anthropic hypothesis which starts off by presuming the earth is extremely unique in this universe, materialism begins by presuming planets that are able to support life are fairly common in this universe. In fact, astronomer Frank Drake (1930-present) proposed, in 1961, advanced life should be very common in the universe. He developed a rather crude equation called the “Drake equation”. He plugged in some fairly optimistic numbers and reasoned that ten worlds with advanced life should be in our Milky Way galaxy alone. That worked out to roughly one trillion worlds with advanced life throughout the entire universe. Much to the disappointment of Star Trek fans, the avalanche of scientific evidence that has been coming in recently has found the probability of finding another planet, with the ability to host advanced life in this universe, is not nearly as likely as astronomer Frank Drake had originally predicted. Probability For Life On Earth - Michael Strauss - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zfOaXQh2SE There are many independent characteristics required to be fulfilled for any planet to host advanced carbon-based life. Two popular books have recently been written, “The Privileged Planet” by Guillermo Gonzalez and “Rare Earth” by Donald Brownlee, indicating the earth is extremely unique in its ability to host advanced life in this universe. Privileged Planet, which also holds the earth is uniquely situated to allow profound discoveries into the deep mysteries of the universe, has now been made into a video. The Privileged Planet - video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5488284265590289530 There is also a well researched statistical analysis of the many independent "life-enabling characteristics" that mathematically proves the earth is extremely unique in its ability to support complex life. The statistical analysis, which is actually a refinement of the Drake equation, is dealt with by astro-physicist Dr. Hugh Ross (1945-present) in his paper "Probability for Life on Earth". Probability For Life On Earth - List of Parameters, References, and Math - Hugh Ross http://www.reasons.org/probability-life-earth-apr-2004 A few of the items in Dr. Ross's "life-enabling characteristics" list are; Planet location in a proper galaxy's “habitable zone”; Parent star size; Surface gravity of planet; Rotation period of planet; Correct chemical composition of planet; Correct size for moon; Correct and stable orbit of planet; Thickness of planets’ crust; Presence of magnetic field; Correct and stable axis tilt; Oxygen to nitrogen ratio in atmosphere; Proper water content of planet; Atmospheric electric discharge rate; Proper seismic activity of planet; Ratio of carbon dioxide and water vapor in the atmosphere; Many interrelated and complex feedback cycles necessary for a stable temperature history of planet; Translucent atmosphere; Various complex cycles for various elements etc.. etc.. I could go a lot further for there are a total of 322 known parameters which have to be met for complex life to be possible on Earth, or on a planet like Earth. Individually, these limits are not that impressive but when we realize ALL these limits have to be met at the same time and not one of them can be out of limits for any extended period of time, then it becomes "irreducibly complex" and the probability for a world which can host advanced life in this universe becomes very extraordinary indeed. Here is the final summary of Dr. Hugh Ross's "conservative" estimate for the probability of another life-hosting world in this universe. Probability for occurrence of all 322 parameters =10^388 Dependency factors estimate =10^96 Longevity requirements estimate =10^14 Probability for occurrence of all 322 parameters = 10^304 Maximum possible number of life support bodies in universe =10^22 Thus, less than 1 chance in 10^282 (million trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion) exists that even one such life-support body would occur anywhere in the universe without invoking divine miracles. The following is another very surprising Privileged Planet principle that recently came to light: The Protective Boundaries of our Solar System - NASA IBEX - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O0qcQZXpII Proverbs 3:19 "The Lord by wisdom founded the earth: by understanding He established the heavens;" The scientific evidence clearly indicates the earth is extremely unique in this universe in its ability to support life. These facts are rigorously investigated and cannot be dismissed out of hand as some sort of glitch in accurate information. Here materialism can offer no competing theory of blind chance which can offset the overwhelming evidence for the earth's apparent intelligent design that enables her to host complex life. A materialist can only assert that we are extremely "lucky". This is some kind of fantastic luck materialists believe. The odds of another life-supporting earth “just happening” in this universe (1 in 10^282) are not even remotely as good as the odds a blind man would have in finding one pre-selected grain of sand, which has been hidden in the vast expanses of the Sahara desert, with only one try. Actually, the size of the Sahara desert, the blind man would be aimlessly wandering through trying to find that one pre-selected grain of sand, would be trillions upon trillions of sizes larger than the size of the known universe. These fantastic odds against another life-supporting world “just so happening” in this universe have not even been refined to their final upper limits yet. The odds get far worse for the materialist. Search For Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence - SETI receives message from God,,,,, Almost - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiQ8Jr5B2Eo I find it strange that the SETI (Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence) organization spends millions of dollars vainly searching for signs of extra-terrestrial life in this universe, when all anyone has to do to make solid contact with THE primary "extra-terrestrial intelligence" of the entire universe is to pray with a sincere heart. God certainly does not hide from those who sincerely seek Him. Actually communicating with the Creator of the universe is certainly a lot more exciting than not communicating with some little green men that do not even exist, unless of course, God decided to create them! Isaiah 45:18-19 For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens, who is God, who formed the earth and made it, who established it, who did not create it in vain, who formed it to be inhabited: “I am the Lord, and there is no other. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth; I did not say to the seed of Jacob, ‘seek me in vain’; I, the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.”bornagain77
June 22, 2009
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PaulBurnett, ------"The preposterously arrogant hubris of this concept is almost mortally impossible to comprehend." There is nothing arrogant about this at all.Clive Hayden
June 22, 2009
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Guillermo Gonzalez and others have hypothesized that the most basic physical constants of the universe (c, G, h, and many others - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_constants), which affect galaxies billions of lightyears from earth in all directions, were all pre-set for the benefit of life on earth. The preposterously arrogant hubris of this concept is almost mortally impossible to comprehend. This is worse than the medieval cleric who asked his flock to give thanks to God because He had put a nice river and harbor and ocean right next to their fair city. What's next? Rehabilitation of the Ptolemaic system?PaulBurnett
June 22, 2009
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