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Upright Biped Replies to Dr. Moran on “Information”

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Dr Moran, sorry for the delay. Other responsibilities intervened for a bit.

Certainly the sequence in DNA is driving reactions. (And there are many varieties)

In your comments you refer to the use of the term “information” within nucleic sequences as a useful analogy, and you say that there is no expectations that it should “conform to the meanings of “information” in other disciplines.” I certainly agree with you that it conforming to other meanings would be a telling turn of events. And I assume your comment suggests that the nucleotide sequence isn’t expected to share any of the same physical characteristics as other forms of information – given that we live in a physical universe where information has physical effects. Ones which we can observe.

I think it makes an interesting comparison; the comparison between the physical characteristics of information transfer in the genome, versus information transfer in other forms. Just recently on this forum we were having a conversation about recorded information, and a question arose if a music box cylinder ‘contained information’. Speaking to its physical characteristics, the answer I gave was “yes”. Just like any other form of recorded information, the pins on a music box are an arrangement of matter to act as a representation within a system. No differently than ink on paper, or the state of a microprocessor, or the lines left on a recording tape, or an ant’s pheromones, or the tone of vibrations we make when we speak; they are all matter/energy arranged in order to represent an effect within a system.

It was also pointed out that a physical arrangement of matter (like the pins on a music box cylinder) cannot by themselves convey information – they require a second coordinated physical object. This second object is easily referred to as a protocol, but physically its is a rule (a protocol) established in a material object. The necessity of this physical protocol is something easily understood; for one thing to represent another thing within a system, it must be separate from it, and if it is truly a separate thing, then there must be something to establish the relationship that exist between the representation and the effect it is to represent (within that system). That is what the second physical object accomplishes, it establishes the relationship between a representation and the effect it represents, which is a relationship that otherwise wouldn’t exist.

There have been examples of this dynamic given in previous conversations. For instance, an apple is an apple, but the word “apple” is a separate thing altogether. Being a separate thing from the apple, there must be something that establishes the relationship between the two. In the case of the word “apple” we as humans have learned the protocols of our individual languages, and they physically exist as neural patterns within our brains. These neural patterns are material things, and they establish the immaterial relationship between a physical representation and its physical effect. This same dynamic is found in all other cases of recorded information. I have previously used the example of a bee’s dance; a bee dancing in a particular way during flight is a separate thing than having the other bees fly off in a particular direction, and the relationship between the two is brought about by a protocol which physically exist in the sensory system of the bee.

In the dynamics of information transfer, the operative observation is that each of these physical things (the representations, the protocols, and their resulting effects) always remains discrete. This is one of the key observations that allows information to exist at all. The input of information is always discrete from the output effect, and the protocol that establishes the relationship between the two, remains discrete as well. They are three completely independent physical realities which share a relationship, with the protocol establishing the relationship between the representation and its effect within the system. In no case does the representation (or the protocol) ever become the effect.

This same dynamic is found in all forms of recorded information; including those used in the information processing systems created by intelligence. As an example, the first automated fabric looms used an arrangement of holes punched into paper cards (which acted as physical representations of the resulting effects within the fabric). Sensors and pins within the machine would sense where the holes were punched, and it would use that information to change and control the colors of threads being woven. In this instance, the configuration of holes served as the representation, and the configuration of sensors served as the protocol, leading to the specified effects. Each of these is physically discrete, while sharing the immaterial relationship established by the protocol.

So here we have a series of observations regarding the physicality of recorded information which repeat themselves throughout every form – no matter whether that information is bound to humans, or human intelligence, or other living things, or non-living machines. There is a list of physical entailments of recorded information that can therefore be generalized and compiled without regard to the source of the information. In other words, the list is only about the physical entailments of the information, not its source. I am using the word “entailment” in the standard sense – to impose as a necessary result (Merriam-Webster). These physical entailments are a necessary result of the existence of recorded information transfer. And they are observable.

That list includes the four material observations as discussed in the previous paragraphs: a) the existence of an arrangement of matter acting as a physical representation, b) the existence of an arrangement of matter to establish the relationship between a representation and the effect it represents within a system (the protocol), c) the existence of physical effects being driven by the input of the representations, and d) the dynamic property that they each remain discrete. Observations of systems that satisfy these four requirements confirms the existence of actual (not analogous) information transfer.

These same entailments are is found in the transfer of information from a nucleic sequence. During protein synthesis a selected sequence of nucleotides are copied, and the representations contained within that copy are fed into a ribosome. The output of that ribosome is a chain of amino acids which will then become the protein being prescribed by the input sequence. The input of information is therefore driving the output production. But the input and the output are physically discrete, as evidenced by the fact that the don’t directly interact, and that the material output is not assembled from the material input.

The exchange of information (from input to output) is facilitated by a set of special physical objects – the protocols – tRNA and its entourage of aminoacyl synthetase. Acting together they make it possible for the input to alter the output, and they do so by allowing them to remain separate. The tRNA physically bridges the gap between the input and the output, acting as a passive carrier of the physical protocol. It accomplishes this by being charged with the correct amino acid by the synthetases (the only molecules in biology which actually hold the rules to the genetic code). The synthetases accomplish their tasks by being able to physically recognize both the tRNAs and the amino acids. They charge the tRNAs with their correct amino acids before they ever enter the ribosome. The actions of the synthetases are therefore completely isolated from both the input and output. In other words, the only molecules in biology that can set the rule that “this maps to that” are physically isolated from both the input and output, while the input and output remain isolated themselves.

These observations establish that the entailed objects (and dynamic relationships) exist the same in the translation of genetic information as they do in any other type of recorded information (in every example from human language, to computer and machine code, to a bee’s dance). These observations have been attacked as being as a misuse of the definition of words (a semantic word game, as you call it). But I have already produced the definitions of the words from a standard dictionary; I’ve restated the observations using those definitions in place of the words themselves; and I have asked the question: “If in one instance we have a thing that actually is a symbolic representation, and in another we have something that just acts like a symbolic representation – then someone can surely look at the physical evidence and point to the distinction between the two. There is also the simple fact that there is nothing about the attachment of cytosine to thymine to adenine that intrinsically means “bind leucine to a nearby polypeptide” as an inherent property of its matter. That is a quality beyond its mere materiality, one it takes on by being in a system with the correct protocol to cause that effect from that arrangement of matter.

There has also been the profoundly illogical objection that because these things follow physical law (and can be understood), they cannot be considered symbols or symbolic representations. Not only does this deny the existence of any symbol in the extreme, it fails for the obvious reason that everything follows physical law. If something can’t be true because it follows the same laws as everything else, then we have entered the Twilight Zone​.

So going back to your comment, a fair reading suggests that the information transfer in the genome shouldn’t be expected to adhere to the qualities of other forms of information transfer. But as it turns out, it faithfully follows the same physical dynamics as any other form of recorded information. As for “disciplines”, you will notice that these observations are very much in the domain of semiotics. Demonstrating a system that satisfies the entailments (physical consequences) of recorded information, also confirms the existence of a semiotic state. It does so observationally. Yet, the descriptions of these entailments makes no reference to a mind. Certainly a living being with a mind can be tied to the observations of information transfer, but so can other living things and non-living machinery. It must be acknowledged, human beings did not invent iterative representative systems, or recorded information. We came along later and discovered they already existed.

Therefore, the search for an answer to the rise of the recorded information in the genome needs to focus on mechanisms that can give rise to a semiotic state, since that is the way we find it. We need a mechanism that can cause an arrangement of matter to serve as a physical representation. We need a mechanism that can establish within a physical object a relationship between two discrete things. To explain the existence of recorded information, we need a mechanism to satisfy the observed physical consequences of recorded information

Do you agree, or do you have evidence that attaching adenine to thymine to guanine is mapped to “start a new protein” in any physical context?

 

 

Comments
crickets all day, crickets all night, crickets all day...Upright BiPed
December 15, 2011
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Dr Rec, you are going in circles. Again you want to claim that the system is not symbolic, presumably because it does not follow the observed physical entailments of a symbolic system. Moreover, you don't seem to want to address those observed entailments and actually point out the distinction you wish to assert. You will need to do so to make your case. Simply claiming that the system is physical, is a non-answer. All systems are physical. Shall I repeat the pertinent question: “If in one instance we have a thing that actually is a symbolic representation, and in another we have something that just acts like a symbolic representation – then someone can surely look at the physical evidence and point to the distinction between the two.”Upright BiPed
December 14, 2011
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"The spinning wheels of your car are a representation to what, or to whom? You? The car? ..... You are a natural symbol maker. Remove yourself from the sample." Precisely my point! The ATG isn't a symbolic representation to the cell-it is a physical handle that in a physical context tells the ribosome to drop in a MET. That the gas petal and the tires don't physically interact doesn't mean they are symbolically communicating-they are physically coupled to other objects in the system. The symbology is anthropomorphised.DrREC
December 14, 2011
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Dr Rec,
My post was in reply that ATG does map to “start” in a physical context. Are you saying it doesn’t?
No that is exactly the point. ATG is mapped to “start” in the physical context of a system - but only in a system where there is a physical protocol (a rule) that ATG is mapped to “start”. Otherwise, it has nothing to do with “start”. The mapping to “start” is an immaterial quality it takes on by being in a system coordinated to actualize that effect. It’s semiotic. (representations, protocols, effects, and appropriate dynamics)
I actually find the language analogy drawn to this physical system more confusing than it is clarifying.
I don’t really believe you, but give yourself a pep talk anyway. :)
If we took the example of my car, are the RPM of the wheels a symbolic representation of the angle of the accelerator? They are separate, representational of each other, and determinate. But inherently physical, despite not being directly physically coupled.
The spinning wheels of your car are a representation to what, or to whom? You? The car? Do you think your spinning wheels represent something to the accelerator pedal? How does your accelerator pedal receive this representation from the spinning wheels, and what does it do with it? This is the same calamity of anthropomorphic malaise that Dr Liddle waded through. I believe she made her way to the other side. I hope you do as well. You are a natural symbol maker. Remove yourself from the sample.
Similarly, if we take physical ‘ATG’ bases, they are represented throughout-in the DNA, mRNA, inversely in the tRNA, and recognized by the methionyl tRNA synthetase.
Yes. A rule is maintained throughout the system.
It isn’t symbolically representative, or truly ‘separate,’ but the same physical handle used for recognition throughout the process.
Let’s take the second part of this first: The representation being sent into the system is created by DNA serving as a template. The protocol that establishes the effect from that representation is the aaRS. At what point in protein synthesis does DNA and aaRS physically interact? Or further, at what point does the DNA-templated mRNA and the aaRS interact? Are they separate, or are they not? And now to the first part of your comment, where you say that templated DNA sequences are not representations. I will ask you again to answer the question above: “If in one instance we have a thing that actually is a symbolic representation, and in another we have something that just acts like a symbolic representation – then someone can surely look at the physical evidence and point to the distinction between the two.” ...Upright BiPed
December 14, 2011
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My post was in reply that ATG does map to "start" in a physical context. Are you saying it doesn't? I I actually find the language analogy drawn to this physical system more confusing than it is clarifying. If we took the example of my car, are the RPM of the wheels a symbolic representation of the angle of the accelerator? They are separate, representational of each other, and determinate. But inherently physical, despite not being directly physically coupled. Similarly, if we take physical 'ATG' bases, they are represented throughout-in the DNA, mRNA, inversely in the tRNA, and recognized by the methionyl tRNA synthetase. It isn't symbolically representative, or truly 'separate,' but the same physical handle used for recognition throughout the process. If we consider a simpler system, DNA translated into a Ribosome, the system is the effect. If we take a RNA virus, the template for process is physically the genome.DrREC
December 14, 2011
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Dmullenix, In front of your very eyes are the observed entailments of recorded information. The physical evidence is there for anyone to see. And no matter what you start with, you must get to this point - because this is the way we find it. This is the central issue regarding the argument given to Dr Moran; genomic information transfer (as it is found to exist) operates by semiosis and demonstrates the readily-observable physical entailments of being semiotic, just like any other form of information transfer ever observed, without exception. So let us boil the position down to the two key parameters: a) origins based upon the direct templating (of what you refer to as “information”) and b) the end result of a genuine semiotic system of recorded information. This position has been repeatedly addressed with regard to Dr Liddle, who holds the same hopeless monster in her mind’s eye. I responded to her:
And in a beautifully profound irony, you say ‘its the information (pattern) that really matters, not the substrate’ … Yet how odd then, in order to defend your remaining views, you believe that (in the end) it was the substrate that created the information in the first place. The details of that be damned, even against observable evidence to the contrary. And its not just any information that the substrate created, its the most incredible display of information processing to ever be seen – so much so that calling it “complex” is an insult to the fact. Mycoplasma genitalium is one of the least complex freely living organisms on Earth and it has 450+ genes consisting of 582,000 base pairs. How much of that required function do you think you can get to without a representation-translation-effect system in place; in other words, in the absence of the genuine recorded information processing we find in mycoplasma? And it really doesn’t matter where you put the mark Elizabeth, wherever it is, you’ll need the very simplest of chemical organizations to organically produce the immaterial representations and protocols you must have to get any further.
So, far from refuting anything in the semiotic argument, you’ve simply highlighted the forever compounding improbability of your own position. I am not saying it is impossible, I am saying that no one can even provide a plausible conceptual pathway for making the jump to genuine recorded information, particularly one based upon the (entirely speculative) direct templating of relatively simple organic compounds.Upright BiPed
December 14, 2011
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dmullenix:
Once you’ve got your polymer reproducing vigorously, evolution can start developing ways to make the reproduction more efficient and hardy and eventually you can wind up with today’s highly complex and highly efficient life.
Wow. It's really simple then. There really is no issue after all.SCheesman
December 14, 2011
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Your assumption is warranted.Barry Arrington
December 14, 2011
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I'm assuming that UprightBiPed actually wrote what I quoted and Barry Arrington just posted it for him. If not, sorry for the misattribution.dmullenix
December 14, 2011
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UBP: "It was also pointed out that a physical arrangement of matter (like the pins on a music box cylinder) cannot by themselves convey information – they require a second coordinated physical object." That's true for modern life, which is highly evolved and much more complex, hardy and efficient compared to first life. But it's possible to have a system in which the second coordinated physical object is not necessary. For instance: Start with a polymer made of small molecules (subunits) linked together like beads in a necklace. If those subunits have electrostatic fields that attract and hold similar subunits next to them and those new subunits then are attracted together to form a new polymer which then breaks free of the original, you have reproduction with nothing but the original polymer. No second coordinated physical objects are necessary. kairosfocus is fond of going on about von Neumann replicators. In the above scheme, the original polymer takes the place of the memory tape, the subunits floating around the polymer take the place of von Neumann's stockroom of spare parts and the electrostatic charges take the place of the manipulator. Once you've got your polymer reproducing vigorously, evolution can start developing ways to make the reproduction more efficient and hardy and eventually you can wind up with today's highly complex and highly efficient life.dmullenix
December 14, 2011
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I apologize for the delay DrRec (its the holiday season, I wouldn't want to be a Grinch). You say: -- “The initiating tRNA (Met) recognizes AUG via codon-anticodon base pairing.” Yes. -- “in context, for example, the Shine Delgarno sequence” Yes, in prokaryotes, it recruits the ribosome to the start codon. In eukaryotes the Kozak sequence performs the same general task. I think wikipedia refers to this as alignment, but a literature summary I have refers to it as recruitment. -- “which depends on 30S ribosome interaction with the mRNA)” Does this indicate to you that any of the following observations are false: a) information is recorded by a representational arrangement of matter/energy mapped to an effect within a system b) for one thing to represent another within that system, it must be separate from it c) a second discrete arrangement of matter/energy establishes the relationship between the representational arrangement and the effect it's mapped to. d) when recorded information is transferred, neither the representational arrangement nor the second arrangement becomes the effect. e) a system that satisfies the physical observations (a-d), demonstrates a semiotic system f) DNA templates used in protein synthesis are an arrangement mapped to an effect within a system g) nucleic sequences determine the ordering of amino acids, but are separate from them. h) aminoacyl synthetases (aaRS) establish the relationships between anticodons and amino acids. i) during protein synthesis, neither DNA or DNA-templated mRNA or aaRS are incorporated in the prescribed polypeptide j) The translation of nucleotides during protein synthesis demonstrates a semiotic system. If you would like to challenge point j) then I would ask you to look at the physical objects and their dynamics within the system and point to the distinction among the physical evidence.Upright BiPed
December 13, 2011
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“To start with, a brief introduction to modern evolution theory is given (chapter 1). A central and fundamental concept of this theory is that of “biological information,” since the material order and the purposiveness characteristic of living systems are governed completely by information, which in turn has its foundations at the level of biological macromolecules (chapter 2). The question of the origin of life is thus equivalent to the question of the origin of biological information.” Information and the Origin of Life, from the introduction. By Bernd-Olaf Küppers. MIT Press 1990.tgpeeler
December 13, 2011
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Therefore, the search for an answer to the rise of the recorded information in the genome needs to focus on mechanisms that can give rise to a semiotic state, since that is the way we find it.
So you are discussing the origin of life and the origin of the genetic code?Petrushka
December 13, 2011
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Ah, an interlocutor appears. Thanks, Dr Rec. I have a qualitative research paper that must be completed by COB. I will return shortly to address your comment.Upright BiPed
December 13, 2011
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"Do you agree, or do you have evidence that attaching adenine to thymine to guanine is mapped to “start a new protein” in any physical context?" The initiating tRNA (Met) recognizes AUG via codon-anticodon base pairing (in context, for example, the Shine Delgarno sequence, which depends on 30S ribosome interaction with the mRNA).DrREC
December 13, 2011
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