Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Usefulness of Chance & Necessity

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Over on Panda’s Thumb Arthur Hunt protests Phil Skell’s essay in Forbes where Skell describes the theory of evolution as not being useful to modern experimental biology.

Hunt goes on to give an example in how it is useful. But Hunt plays the old bait and switch game. Every honest person with some knowledge of ID knows that ID doesn’t dispute common descent as the reason why all living things are deeply related. ID disputes the notion that chance and necessity alone produced all the living things and the differences between them.

I don’t think anyone (including Phil Skell) will argue that knowing all living things are deeply related is not a sometimes valuable guiding heuristic to experimental biology. So Hunt plays the old switcheroo by giving an example where common descent provided some insight and pretending that chance & necessity is part and parcel of common descent.

This is par for the course for evolutionists. They describe common descent and call it “evolution” instead of common descent. Then they describe special creation and call it “intelligent design” instead of special creation. This is dishonest and downright pathetic. ID doesn’t dispute evolution defined as descent with modfication from one or more common ancestors over billions of years. It disputes the mechanism (chance & necessity or random mutation & natural selection) commonly ascribed as sole motive force behind the creation and diversification of life.

The need to play switcheroo with the definitions of ID and evolution in order to make their arguments is prima facie evidence that they have no compelling argument.

Comments
JT wrote:
"The Ancient Israelites would not have been allowed to make monumental images of their human founders and then revere those images. This would have been an absolutely flagrant violation of the Old Testament Law."
I didn't dispute the illegality of idolatry under Mosaic law; my response (as quoted) was properly directed at your provocative claim:
Surely if the Ancient Israelites had done it they would have been annihilated by God.
Regardless, we needn't continue a debate about the Tanach. We can easily agree that idolatry isn't permissible according to the Torah. However the classification of a contemporary sculpture under the idol category is more than a stretch. Mount Rushmore is a renown landmark used by ID proponents as an example of specified complexity with a historically traceable designing agent. Classifying it as some sort of irony for religious reasons is convoluted at best. You would have done better claiming that ID was using Borglum-of-the-gaps reasoning. ;-)Apollos
March 3, 2009
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Has the discussion here missed the mark? Skell's point, to which Hunt adds his counterpoint, is that evolutionary theory is not used as a "guide" in biological experimentation. Hunt's example is meant to suggest that 'knowing' the 'evolutionary history' of the P. falciparum helped to develop an anti-malarial therapy. This is his central point. Here is what he says: Briefly, several groups followed an obvious line of thought - since the parasite has an organelle that is evolutionarily-related to plastids, see if it has plant-like metabolic pathways or other targets that plant (and chloroplast)-specific drugs would act upon. I ask this question: Is Hunt justified in saying that "since the parasite has an organelles that is evolutionarily-related to plastids, see if it has plant-like targets that plant-specific drugs would act upon"? Specifically, do you need to know "how" the organelle got into the bacterium to decide to pursue "plant-specific" drugs, or, is it sufficient simply to know that the organelle is related to plant-like plastids? I don't think "how" the organelle got there really matters, only that it uses "plant-like" biochemical pathways. Is this the best that Darwinists can come up with?PaV
March 3, 2009
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JT:
That there were precursors to life that resulted in life doesn’t prove there is no God.
The question is not whether or not there is a God, the question is whether chance + necessity are adequate to explain life. Proving precursors to life would not prove the efficacy of chance and necessity, but finding an environment that realistically existed in the prebiotic earth, and a path whereby replication could come about within the parameters of chance, and finding a path from simple replicators to modern biology that is smooth enough (mutation-by-mutation) to get from simple replication to modern biology would establish the feasibility of chance + necessity as an adequate explanation. If chance + necessity is an adequate explanation, then ID as a science is irrelevant. It is only our conviction that chance + necessity is inadequate that has folks like me questioning the reasonableness of neodarwinism.bFast
March 3, 2009
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Me [37]:So yeah, the info apparently had to be there to begin with, and you could even assume it always existed (Otherwise you’re assuming it came together at a point in time at random which Dembski et. al. rule out.) Just to clarify (and then I'll quit hogging band-width for a while): "a point in time" isn't relevant - so mutations occuring over a period time for example have the same problem.JT
March 3, 2009
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JT, if you look at my list of requirements for first life in post 35, I mention some specific parameters. Again, 1 - It must be demonstrated that the environment realistically existed in the prebiotic earth. If engineers simulate an environment that likey was, if they spend years of research to figure out what that environment was, then they are not front-loading knowledge, they are only discovering. To my knowledge the RNA world experiments that have produced some fruit, by the way, are painfully not environments that likely naturally existed in the prebiotic earth. This, of course, is a major problem for abiogenics. 2 - The replicator must have had a chance better than 1 in 10^-40 of happening by chance. This extends (though I find Dembski's number of 10 ^ -150 to be a bit generous) Dembski's work. Events with this chance of occurring could realistically be said to have occurred by chance, especially if there are lots of opportunity for trials. The scientific community grissles at the idea of a threshold on chance. ID, through Dembski, has suggested a threshold on chance. Let us be honest and hold to the threshold. These requirements, as far as I am conserned solve the problem of "look how many worked to solve this problem".bFast
March 3, 2009
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bFast: Why should the fact that there was a process involved in the emergence of life have any bearing in the debate, one way or the other? I would not have thought that I.D. was thinking that life just materialized instanteously, literally by magic. That there were precursors to life that resulted in life doesn't prove there is no God.JT
March 3, 2009
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JT:
bFast [35]: You could still always say that it took 1000’s of the best minds in science working concertedly for nearly a hundred years to figure out how to create life through abiogensis. This could serve to gauge the difficulty of the problem.
I am not interested in finding a rhetorical way around the facts. If the scientific community can demonstrate a realistic abiogenesis strategy, a strategy that could realistically have occurred, they merit a rethinking of one's position. This is not about us v. them, its about a search for truth.bFast
March 3, 2009
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Apollos, "fourthly, idolotry was prevalent during significant periods of Israel’s ancient history, yet still they remain even today" The Ancient Israelites would not have been allowed to make monumental images of their human founders and then revere those images. This would have been an absolutely flagrant violation of the Old Testament Law. (My point was a minor one to begin with but for clarification...)JT
March 3, 2009
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Apollos - All your commentary notwithstanding, Mount Rushmore would have most certainly qualified as a "graven image" in the Old Testament Law. And I said it was "slightly" ironic, so I was not equating I.D. to religion. And also Mount Rushmore would equate to DNA, in that Mount Rushmore is a complex symbolic object whose existence would trigger the creation of duplicates of itself.JT
March 3, 2009
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B L Harville @ 21: "The day scientists announce a successful abiogenesis experiment is going to be a difficult day for some people." Surely not for ID people, though. A successful abiogenesis experiment would demonstrate that intelligence (in that case, the intelligence of the experimenters) is capable of giving rise to life. Whose point does that prove? As has been pointed out many times in this forum, ID in itself doesn't stipulate a supernatural intelligence, though of course in practice that seems the most likely source. As an ID supporter I would see a successful abiogenesis experiment more as a vindication than a challenge.Stephen Morris
March 3, 2009
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bFast [35]: You could still always say that it took 1000's of the best minds in science working concertedly for nearly a hundred years to figure out how to create life through abiogensis. This could serve to gauge the difficulty of the problem. Someone could observe, "We still don't see this happening in nature today. And although it would be true that chemicals had to have come together at some point in the past to result in the first life, the only other instance we have seen that happen today is when intelligence was involved (human intelligence). Thus we are reasonable in assuming intelligence was involved to begin with." And someone could respond, "Well why not assume the original cause was a human being as well, on the same basis." OTOH, if f is natural laws and x is some initial state of physical affairs, and f(x) results in a man then f(x) can be viewed as man in a previous form. (Like an oven a recipe and ingredients and labor for a cake equals a cake.) Einstein was a genius prior to discovering relativity. He was still a man even while sleeping or unconcious. Even though f(x) hadn't accomplished much it still wouldn't negate the fact that it was man in a previous form. So yeah, the info apparently had to be there to begin with, and you could even assume it always existed (Otherwise you're assuming it came together at a point in time at random which Dembski et. al. rule out.) But neverthless there's no place in science for a black-box called "Intelligence" that magically generates complex designs via some indescribable method (which is what it would be if operated outside of law as is affirmed in I.D.)JT
March 3, 2009
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Mount Rushmore is a demonstration of human ingenuity via engineering and artisanship. It's unmistakably the work of intelligent agents, and if it proclaims anything, it does so indelibly: "The U.S.A. was here."
Mount Rushmores do not create more Mount Rushmores.
Exactly. Mount Rushmores do not create more Mount Rushmores. Human agents create them, and facsimiles thereof.
I would say its also qualifies as an idol. Surely if the Ancient Israelites had done it they would have been annihilated by God. So its slightly ironic its become the symbol for the I.D. movement.
Where is the irony? Firstly, the bacterial flagellum is ID's primary symbol; secondly, ID has no direct relation to Mosaic Judaism, nor its offspring Christianity; thirdly, idols are commonly representative of false deities, not human governmental figures, unless there are implications of a fusion between the two -- and there exists no such implication with Mount Rushmore; fourthly, idolotry was prevalent during significant periods of Israel's ancient history, yet still they remain even today, "...for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable." (Rom 11:29)
I would say its also qualifies as an idol. Surely if the Ancient Israelites had done it they would have been annihilated by God. So its slightly ironic its become the symbol for the I.D. movement.
Comments such as these are intended to derail discussions by[re]introducing the ID=religion straw man. There is no irony here, other than that ID's detractors find religious motive mongering more comfortable territory than discussing the hallmarks of intelligent agency. If chance and necessity were viable as explanations for art and engineering, ID critics would have no need for retreating to religious criticisms, nor making attempts at labeling a triumph of human art and engineering as "idolotry."Apollos
March 3, 2009
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B L Harville:
The day scientists announce a successful abiogenesis experiment is going to be a difficult day for some people.
You are correct that if a successful abiogenesis experiment ever is produced, it will rock the ID word, it will cause many to abandon ID. The requirements that ID will demand however are: 1 - That the environment be reasonably likely to have existed in the prebiotic earth. 2 - The initial lifeform must self-start or at least be more likely than 1 in 10^40 of naturally occurring. 3 - At least a rather believable story from first replicator to simplest known cell, detailing how complex structures like ATP synthase came about mutation-by-mutation. If all of those requirements are met, it is likely that I will be one of those abandoning the ID ship. That said, since I was a child I have heard stories of "we've made it" or "we almost made it" coming out of the abiogenesis science. At some point one gets to "once bit, twice shy". You'll not get much sympathy in the ID community from the hope that one day the study of abiogenesis will be fruitful. "is going to be" is optimism that isn't supported by history. To us it seems as likely as man flying faster than the speed of light.bFast
March 3, 2009
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billobard = billboardJT
March 3, 2009
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B. L. Harville wrote: Mount Rushmores do not create more Mount Rushmores. I would disagree. Mount Rushmore is in effect a huge billobard saying "Copy me. Revere Me. Pay attention to me." It captures the attention of mechanisms that already have a propensity to go about making copies of things (i.e. humans). How many copies of Mount Rushmore have been spawned, (in photographs images paintings, cast moldings, sculptures) By the mere fact that Mount Rushmore exists. Mount Rushmore is a very powerful program by itself. I would say its also qualifies as an idol. Surely if the Ancient Israelites had done it they would have been annihilated by God. So its slightly ironic its become the symbol for the I.D. movement.JT
March 3, 2009
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Perhaps there is a theoretical answer to this question somewhere out in the abiogenesis literature: If life arose from a pool/cloud/soup of organic but non-living material, why can't we find any of it? Shouldn't there be swarms of it in places that it theoretically arose (ocean floor vents, volcanoes, whatever)?uoflcard
March 3, 2009
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Well golly gee, life replicates. So because it is so much more complicated than the non life examples that do not have to have the complicated machinery and parts to reproduce, that makes it a candidate for a natural explanation. Nature cannot produce the less complicated stuff, but boy is it great at the more complicated stuff. You can teach old dogs new tricks. I never knew that more complicated things were easier for nature to produce. Live and learn. Thank you B. L. Harville for that magnificent insight.jerry
March 3, 2009
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The day scientists announce a successful abiogenesis experiment is going to be a difficult day for some people.
The day we discovered nano machinery in the cell, metainformtion in genomes were difficult days for neo-Darwinists, but that didn't stop you guys! Maybe we'll just follow you guys did/do: Either ignore it, deny it, or pretend Darwin predicted ituoflcard
March 3, 2009
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B L Harville
Upright BiPed:
And something had to bring that (conventional) code into being. That something was not chance, it was not mechanical necessity, and it was not natural selection. “
That is an assertion which you cannot prove.
So the theory of abiogenesis is unfalsifiable. That is what you're saying? Yet it is "science", and an OU professor recently received a $500,000 grant from the NSF to have it taught in high school chemistry classrooms. btw, Harville, I'm sure you would say the same exact thing to this statement: "All of the complexity of life did not come about strictly via random mutation and natural selection." In that case, you would be admitting that neo-Darwinian theory is also unfalsifiable.
The day scientists announce a successful abiogenesis experiment is going to be a difficult day for some people.
Yet we are the ones living in faith, right?uoflcard
March 3, 2009
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Hello Dave, You stated above "ID is design detection." You also stated that ID "disputes the mechanism (chance & necessity or random mutation & natural selection) commonly ascribed as sole motive force behind the creation and diversification of life." So, as I understand your position, positive evidence of design undermines the adequacy of mutation and natural selection as the mechanism responsible for common descent; however, ID is not about positing an alternative mechanism. Although we differ about the nature of the evidence in favor of design, I don't disagree that unambiguous evidence of design could shift the argument with respect to common descent in your direction. What I don't understand is how this relates to another foundation of ID (at least as defined on this site), that is the inadequacy of materialist explanations in biology and cosmology. How is your definition of ID inherently anti-materialist? MichaelMichael Tuite
March 3, 2009
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When self replicating computers or robots are created does that somehow grant the area of programming and robotics immunity from a design inference or would the replication of functioning programs warrant even further design inference?CJYman
March 3, 2009
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B L Harville:
Life creates more life. Life contains info for duplicating itself. ... a “design inference” for living things is not exactly the same as for non-living things.
Wow, thanks. It hadn't dawned on me that life self-duplicates, and that this would need to be factored into design detection. That said, how did life get its start anyway? Isn't first life fully submitted to the same standard as mount rushmore?bFast
March 3, 2009
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Life creates more life. Life contains info for duplicating itself. Mount Rushmores do not create more Mount Rushmores. Signals in space do not create more signals in space. Life is of a different category than non-life. Therefore reaching a "design inference" for living things is not exactly the same as for non-living things.B L Harville
March 3, 2009
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BL Harville ID is design detection. It requires intelligent agency. SETI is a good specific example of the science of design detection. The process of reaching a design inference is exactly the same and notably they don't have to know anything about the designer. Is SETI something within the scope of what you'd call science? If it is then the same principles of design detection should be considered science whether you apply it to patterns found in the electromagnetic spectrum and patterns found in living things. No double standards.DaveScot
March 3, 2009
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bFast: Good ideas. There is a hierarchy in scientific theories, with some serving as integrative constructs that tie together more specific models and it is the latter that are more directly empirically testable. That holds for newtonian Dynamics, for Quantum theory and for many, many other domains of science. It would be good for us to all read beyond Popper's falsificaionism, e.g. through starting with Imre Lakatos' progressive and degenerative research programmes and the issue of the protective belt of hypotheses and the core vision and key ideas of a research programme. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 3, 2009
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Oops - sorry for the double comment. My connection hung up and I didn't think the original comment went through.B L Harville
March 2, 2009
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Upright BiPed:
And something had to bring that (conventional) code into being. That something was not chance, it was not mechanical necessity, and it was not natural selection. "
That is merely an assertion.B L Harville
March 2, 2009
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Upright BiPed:
And something had to bring that (conventional) code into being. That something was not chance, it was not mechanical necessity, and it was not natural selection. "
That is an assertion which you cannot prove. It can be disproven however. The day scientists announce a successful abiogenesis experiment is going to be a difficult day for some people.B L Harville
March 2, 2009
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Harville, natural selection can only work after functioning living tissue is a reality, unless you intend to ascribe a fitness level for inorganic matter. Volitional agency is the only force known that is able to create the selection for function at the original nucleic sequence, coming from inorganic matter. The primary difference between living tissue and inorganic matter is the organizational information contained in the nucleic code. And something had to bring that (conventional) code into being. That something was not chance, it was not mechanical necessity, and it was not natural selection. I know it is very convienent (and often great fun) to forget this fact, particularly when defending the materialist paradigm against the mountain of evidence that does not follow to it. But that changes nothing.Upright BiPed
March 2, 2009
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B L Harville, "ID doesn’t seem to require anything." ID requires one thing -- foresight. B L Harville, "It’s rather amorphous and non-committal to be considered a scientific theory." I would suggest that ID is not a scientific theory as naturalism is not a scientific theory. ID is a metatheory, a framework where theories are built. IC, SC, etc. are theories developed within that framework. These theories (hypothesees) are not nearly so amorphous as ID itself.bFast
March 2, 2009
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