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Walter White: Consequentialist

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I am a big fan of television show Breaking Bad.  For those who are unfamiliar with the show, let me give a brief synopsis of the plot.  Walter White is a technically brilliant chemist but an underachiever at life (at least by his own lights).  He had a chance to make big money using his chemical skills, but instead he wound up teaching chemistry to bored high school students while moonlighting at a car wash to make ends meet.  He finds out he has lung cancer and probably only a short time to live.  This is especially devastating to him because he knows he will not leave enough money behind for his wife and children to live comfortably.

Here is where things get really interesting.  Walt’s brother-in-law Hank is a DEA agent.  When Walt goes on a “ride along” with Hank when he busts a meth lab, he learns there is a lot of money to be made in the meth business.  Walt decides he will provide for his family after he is dead by cooking and selling meth and building up a nest egg during the brief time he has left.  And since Walt is a brilliant chemist, he will not cook just any meth.  He will cook the best meth on the planet.  The remaining five seasons of the show explore the consequences of that decision.

The consequences are not good.  The series is about Walt’s downward spiral into evil.  Over the course of the series we watch a startling metamorphosis as Walt transforms himself from a likable but bumbling and timid nerd into a truly monstrous criminal capable of appalling acts of cruelty and violence.

Breaking Bad is at its core a show about ethics, a morality play if you will.  Philosophers speak of consequentialist/utilitarian ethics and deontological ethics.  Briefly, the consequentialist says that an act is “good” if it creates the greatest net happiness.  Jeremey Bentham put it this way:  “it is the greatest happiness of the greatest number that is the measure of right and wrong.”  Because the consequentialist focuses on “overall” happiness, he can justify doing “bad” if he believes the bad act will result in a net overall increase in happiness.  Deontological ethics, on the other hand, focuses on the “inherent” goodness of a particular act without regard to consequences.  Thus, it is never good to do evil, even if one believes that somehow a greater good can be achieved by doing evil.

An example might help to demonstrate the difference between the two approaches to ethics.  Let us say that we can be certain that a young child will grow up to be a serial killer.  The consequentialist would say we should murder the child in his crib, because that will increase overall net happiness.  The deontologicalist says that murdering an innocent child is evil and can never be justified on any ground.  The Latin legal phrase Fiat justitia ruat caelum (“Let justice be done though the heavens fall”) captures this approach to ethics.

Walter White is a consequentialist.  Over the course of the series he justifies every evil act by appeals to a “greater good” that will result from the evil he commits.  Producing illegal meth?  How else is he going to get enough money to leave his family a little nest egg?  Killing a captured drug dealer?  I have to kill him to cover my tracks and provide for my family.  By the end of the series Walt has committed numerous murders and even poisoned a young boy to further his own selfish ends, and every step of the way he says he is doing it “for the family.”

I applaud Breaking Bad’s writers for exposing Walt’s consequentialism for the lie that it is.  They do this in two ways.  First, they turn Walt’s own consequentialism on its head.  One of the reasons evil is so bad is that we cannot in fact cordon off the consequences of evil actions in an airtight compartment.  Things have a way of spinning out of control, and Breaking Bad works as a morality play, because it does not let Walt off the hook.  In the end Walt loses everything.  He loses his wife, his children, his home, his ill-gotten money, his friends, and, finally, his life.

Even more importantly, Breaking Bad exposes the consequentialist for a liar even to himself.  In the last episode Walt, knowing he is about to die, is saying goodbye to his wife Skyler:

Walt:  “I just wanted to say that everything I’ve done . . .

Skyler:  “Stop!  Just stop!  I will scream if I have to listen to you say one more time you did everything for the family!”

Walt:  “No, that is not what I was going to say.  I did it for me.  I did it because I like it.  I was good at it, and it made me feel alive.”

That 30 seconds of dialogue is the crowning achievement of the five seasons of an already fabulous series, and my hat is off to the producers and writers.

In the end Walt finally admits that he had been lying all along.  He didn’t do evil to achieve a greater good.  He did evil to achieve his own selfish ends.  And that, dear readers, is a lesson that every consequentialist who has ever tried to justify his evil acts by sanguine appeals to a “greater good” should learn.  You say you want to do evil to achieve good?  I’m not buying it.  You want to do evil because you want to do evil.  Stop lying to me and, more importantly, stop lying to yourself.

Comments
BA77: “Radiocarbon dates on charcoal give the date the wood grew, not the date it was burned.”
You didn't read all of the article, did you? In the very next paragraph:
As mentioned earlier, no other radiocarbon dates from samples from City IV Jericho were available in the early 1990's. In 1995, however, results were published by Hendrik J. Bruins and Johannes van der Plicht from high-precision radiocarbon measurements made on eighteen samples from Jericho. Six of these samples were charred cereal grains from the City IV destruction. Bruins and van der Plicht did not set out to disprove Wood's thesis. Their stated purpose was to contribute "toward the establishment of an independent radiocarbon chronology of Near Eastern archaeology. The chart below is the same as the chart shown earlier. Heavy black bars have been added showing the range of dates radiocarbon gave from the six charred grain samples from City IV Jericho.
The charred cereal grains were certainly not 150 years old! They support Kenyon's 1550 BC dating.CentralScrutinizer
October 4, 2013
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correction 2: I should have also included the entire Canaanite conquest instead of just the Jericho conquestbornagain77
October 4, 2013
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correction "goes to the heart of the Gospel',,bornagain77
October 4, 2013
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Box, of note: If the justice of God is not a valid moral principle by which to justify and judge the Jericho conquest, as Peter Williams alluded to in providing the overall moral context for the situation at Jericho, then the principle of justice can also carry no weight for the propitiation of our sins before God's eyes through Christ's atoning sacrifice for our sins. Either justice is a objective moral principle that must be satisfied in God or else Christ's death on our behalf is of no real benefit for us as to providing justification for our salvation. Notes: G.O.S.P.E.L. – (the grace of propitiation) poetry slam – video https://vimeo.com/20960385 Falling Plates (the grace of propitiation) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGlx11BxF24 This following video revealed a very surprising holographic image that was found on the Shroud. An image that goes to the heat of the Gospel: Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words 'The Lamb' - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041205 Solid Oval Object Under The Beard http://shroud3d.com/findings/solid-oval-object-under-the-beardbornagain77
October 4, 2013
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He was teaching the Jewish people, like a parent does a child. He wasn't teaching them to kill )they evidently knew how to do that already, as one of the many unfortunate results of the Fall); but to trust him to help them them - not to do everything for them.Axel
October 4, 2013
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CentralScrutinizer is making a persuasive case about being consistent. On the other hand, Peter J Williams does make some excellent points about regarding context. One more question, which Williams did not address: What could be the reason for God to involve the Israelites in this annihilation? Why did He invoke their help? Williams said: 'God did most of the fighting'. My question is: why did He not do all of the fighting?Box
October 4, 2013
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For an example of me trying to see what type of non-atheist you actually are, you state:
By the way, can an earthquake be considered a miracle?
But as a Theist you should believe that everything, even Earthquakes and tidal waves are a miracle. The only way a 'non-atheist' can believe otherwise is to be a deist! Are you a deist? If so let me inform you that quantum mechanics has now given us a very strong indication that the Theistic presupposition, of God upholding this universe in his infinite power, is correct. A universe that is not self sustaining but one that requires a non-local, beyond space and time, cause in order to explain its continued existence through time:
‘Quantum Magic’ Without Any ‘Spooky Action at a Distance’ – June 2011 Excerpt: A team of researchers led by Anton Zeilinger at the University of Vienna and the Institute for Quantum Optics and Quantum Information of the Austrian Academy of Sciences used a system which does not allow for entanglement, and still found results which cannot be interpreted classically. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110624111942.htm
i.e. Photons, on which everything in the universe is dependent on so as to derive their most minute movements, are found to require a beyond space and time, ‘non-local’, cause to explain their continued existence in space time. It is also very interesting to point out how these recent findings for quantum non-locality of photons, (and even for material particles), dovetails perfectly into some of the oldest philosophical arguments for the existence of God and offers empirical confirmation for those ancient philosophical arguments. For instance, quantum non locality provides empirical confirmation for the ancient philosophical argument for ‘being’, for ‘existence’ itself!
Aquinas' Third way - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V030hvnX5a4 God Is the Best Explanation For Why Anything At All Exists - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjuqBxg_5mA
As well, non local, i.e. beyond space and time, quantum actions provide solid support for the argument from motion. Also known as Aquinas’ First way. (Of note, St Thomas Aquinas lived from 1225 to 7 March 1274.)
Aquinas’ First Way – (The First Mover – Unmoved Mover) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmpw0_w27As Aquinas’ First Way 1) Change in nature is elevation of potency to act. 2) Potency cannot actualize itself, because it does not exist actually. 3) Potency must be actualized by another, which is itself in act. 4) Essentially ordered series of causes (elevations of potency to act) exist in nature. 5) An essentially ordered series of elevations from potency to act cannot be in infinite regress, because the series must be actualized by something that is itself in act without the need for elevation from potency. 6) The ground of an essentially ordered series of elevations from potency to act must be pure act with respect to the casual series. 7) This Pure Act– Prime Mover– is what we call God. http://egnorance.blogspot.com/2011/08/aquinas-first-way.html
Or to put it much more simply:
"The ‘First Mover’ is necessary for change occurring at each moment." Michael Egnor – Aquinas’ First Way http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/09/jerry_coyne_and_aquinas_first.html
Of related interest to 'the first mover', in the following video Anton Zeilinger, whose group is arguably the best group of experimentalists in quantum physics today, 'trys' to explain the double slit experiment to Morgan Freeman:
Quantum Mechanics - Double Slit Experiment. Is anything real? (Prof. Anton Zeilinger) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayvbKafw2g0
Prof. Zeilinger makes this rather startling statement in the preceding video:
"The path taken by the photon is not an element of reality. We are not allowed to talk about the photon passing through this or this slit. Neither are we allowed to say the photon passes through both slits. All this kind of language is not applicable." Anton Zeilinger
further note:
Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 (Leggett's Inequality) http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html
Verse and Music:
Colossians 1:17 "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Kerrie Roberts - No Matter What – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA3MSqufJP4
bornagain77
October 4, 2013
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Bryant Wood, Professor of Near Eastern Studies at University of Toronto found the? exact diagnostic pottery, the imported pottery from Cyprus mentioned around 27:00, that effectively dates the city in concordance with Joshua's Jericho. The pottery was found in a more prosperous area of the city which Kathleen never excavated. http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-cypriot-pottery.htm from your site: "Radiocarbon dates on charcoal give the date the wood grew, not the date it was burned." Response from Wood: My dating of the destruction of Jericho to ca. 1400 B.C. is based on pottery, which, in turn, is based on Egyptian chronology. Jericho is just one example of the discrepancy between historical and C14 dates for the second millennium B.C. C14 dates are consistently 100–150 years earlier than historical dates.,,, Because of the inconsistencies and uncertainties of C14 dating, most archaeologists prefer historical dates over C14 dates. http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/08/Carbon-14-Dating-at-Jericho.aspx#Article So it appears you have chosen the (much) weaker position., Plus I'm left wondering what type of non-atheist you are in that you are always arguing the atheistic position? Does that not strike you as strange? It certainly raises my eyebrow!bornagain77
October 4, 2013
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By the way, can an earthquake be considered a miracle? If so, then it's quite possible a miracle toppled the Jericho walls. Considering that the area was prone to earthquakes, it's not a stretch. What rating on the Richter scale would it take to topple essentially mud walls?CentralScrutinizer
October 3, 2013
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BA77, by the way, archeology has indeed confirmed that Jericho existed. But it cannot tell us who, if anyone, conquered it, how the walls fell, and why the city was burned. The Biblical author ascribes this to Joshua's forces (and is off by 150 years.) How do you verify it? Whoever was responsible for compiling the Torah obviously had no qualms about assigning to Israelite heroes and progenitors acts that derived from difference sources that were more ancient. For example, the Adam and Eve creation story being remarkably similar to the Sumerian creation of Adam by Enki. Noah's flood and the Gilgamesh flood myth. The Tower of Bable and Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta. Etc. These stories pre-date any known Biblical text. Archaeology cannot prove that Yahweh knocked down the walls of Jericho, any more than it can prove that Zeus and Poseidon had a hand in the Trojan War. You have your pet religious reasons for believing the Bible story is the "real account." But it's merely a matter of faith.CentralScrutinizer
October 3, 2013
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BA77, Bryant Wood made a good attempt, but the latest assessment of the evidence contradicts his views. Kenyon's dating was right and Wood is wrong: http://www.biblicalchronologist.org/answers/bryantwood.php As for a miracle involved in crumbling the wall, I have nothing to say. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.CentralScrutinizer
October 3, 2013
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As to archeological evidence: That Joshua’s destruction of the Canaanites in Jericho had a supernatural element to it (the walls suddenly falling down) is evidenced from archeological evidence in the following video (at around the 13:00 minute mark): Jericho Unearthed Bible Proof - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-cmdl4Cqdo The following video is downright jaw-dropping with its 'supernatural' archeological evidence for the authenticity of the Bible: The Physical Ashen Remains Of Sodom and Gomorrah - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwTVFk1HK3Ybornagain77
October 3, 2013
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TheisticEvolutionist, Thanks, but still I ask: How do you explain unconscious people seeing what is actually going on with their bodies?BYEC
October 3, 2013
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vjtorley, By the way, if you believe the story about Yahweh telling Israelites to kill Canaanites babies, why didn't Yahweh just tell the Israelites to adopt the babies? Sidebar: For what it's worth, I don't believe the True God ever commanded any Israelites to kill anyone, let alone babies. The think the story is a myth created around the time of Ezra. There was never any harsh invasion of Canaan by Israelites. It was a slow assimilation. The dirt archeological evidence backs this up in spades. God doesn't order the killing of babies. Period. That would be obviously and absolutely Evil. And if you disagree with me, then you're evil too. (See how that works? Not much of an argument, is it?)CentralScrutinizer
October 3, 2013
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vjtorley, Hmmm, got cut off. Try again: That’s a satisfactory “nuanced explanation.” Is that what you believe about the Israelite treatment of the Canaanite babies? If so, fine business. But what about my explanation? What if those Canaanite babies were incarnated demons? Would God be justified in your mind in having the Israelites kill them in a harsh way, irrelevant of any suffering, as described in Psalm 137:9? "Happy is the one who seizes your (Babylonian) infants and dashes them against the rocks", if they were incarnated demons? Regardless of how God is justified, the point I'm making to Barry is that evil acts against "innocent" people are not necessarily "absolutely evil" just because they are disgusting and repugnant to him, personally. If you have to justify the act by appealing to some explanation beyond the "obviously evil act" then the "obvious" evil act is not the result of it being absolutely evil. Either killing innocent babies is always bad, in every place and time, or it isn't. And how you feel about it personally is not a basis for judgement on the merits of it being "absolutely and obviously evil." I respect Barry for so much of what he writes, but puzzlingly, Barry likes to demand in a rather sophomorical way "yes or no" answers regarding evil. "It's obviously evil, and if you don't agree with me, you're evil too." But it doesn't fly. Not if one is interested in being consistent.CentralScrutinizer
October 3, 2013
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vjtorley, That's a satisfactory "nuanced explanation." Is that what you believe about the Israelite treatment of the Canaanite babies? But what about my explanation? What if those babies were incarnated demons? Would God be justified in having the Israelites kill them in a harsh way, irrelevaCentralScrutinizer
October 3, 2013
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Central Scrutinizer, A very quick answer to your question, as I'm off to work in a minute. The killing of innocent babies is not intrinsically wrong for God, Who is the Author of their being, if He kills them in a manner that causes them neither pain nor distress of any kind, and if He does so because He knows (with infallible certainty) that they would suffer a great harm were they to go on living, from which He intends to rescue them. I am not the author of another person's being, and I don't know for sure what future harms may befall them; hence I have no right to "play God." For a further discussion of the issue, see here: http://www.angelfire.com/linux/vjtorley/dawkins.html (scroll down to the end). Cheers.vjtorley
October 3, 2013
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Barry: Central: Are you suggesting there is a nuanced answer as to whether the holocaust was evil?
Yes, there certainly is the possibility of one. For example, what if you discovered (because, say, God gave you a metaphysical certainty) that all the Jews that were killed by the Nazis were actually incarnate demons. Would not such a "nuanced explanation" make you re-classify the "absolute evil" of the Holocaust?
Are you suggesting there is no possible nuanced answer about God’s actions in Canaan 3,500 years ago?
Of course not. If God gave me metaphysical certainty that all those slaughtered Canaanite babies were actually incarnate demons, then it would mitigate my view of the situation. So, your "yes or no" type bully-questions are of little value in a mature philosophical discussion. It's always possible that unknown facts could "save the day" and alter one's perception of the "absolute evil" such that it become not absolute evil at all, whether we're talking about Nazis killing Jews or Israelites killing Canaanites babies. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.CentralScrutinizer
October 3, 2013
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Theistic Evolutionist, as to your claim here:
"Most Americans have been shrowded in the Biblical concepts and stories from birth or school so it is not surprising concepts of heaven or hell make their way into their NDE. Go and look at the reports from Asia. Hindus who experience an NDE report Hindu stuff in their NDE, Buddhists report Buddhist stuff etc and no mention of Biblical heaven or hell."
Which is an interesting claim for you to make since I know for a fact that it is a false claim:
Near-Death Experiences in Thailand - Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of 'going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm Near Death Experience Thailand Asia - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8M5J3zWG5g A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington: Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the 'das-log's discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here. Episode 6: The 'das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back. Episode 7: The 'das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living. http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/booksAndPapers/neardeath.html?nw_view=1281960224&amp India Cross-cultural study by Dr. Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia Medical School and Dr. Satwant Pasricha of the Institute of Mental Health and Neurosciences in Bangalore, India Excerpt: "Suddenly I saw two big pots of boiling water, although there was no fire, no firewood, and no fireplace. Then, the man pushed me with his hand and said, "You'd better hurry up and go back." When he touched me, I suddenly became aware of how hot his hand was. Then I realised why the pots were boiling. The heat was coming from his hands! When I regained consciousness, I had a severe burning sensation in my left arm." Mangal still had a mark on his left arm that he claims was a result of the burning. About a quarter of Dr Pasricha's interviewees reported such marks. http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/apr/06pas.htm
But you are right in one regards, some cultures, such as the Japanese and areas of China, have some rather weird NDE's, that are merely unpleasant and that are not full blown hellish NDE's in their description:
The Japanese find death a depressing experience - From an item by Peter Hadfield in the New Scientist (Nov. 30th 1991) Excerpt: A study in Japan shows that even in death the Japanese have an original way of looking at things. Instead of seeing 'tunnels of light' or having 'out of body' experiences, near-dead patients in Japanese hospitals tend to see rather less romantic images, according to researchers at Kyorin University. According to a report in the Mainichi newspaper, a group of doctors from Kyorin has spent the past year documenting the near-death experiences of 17 patients. They had all been resuscitated from comas caused by heart attacks, strokes, asthma or drug poisoning. All had shown minimal signs of life during the coma. Yoshia Hata, who led the team, said that eight of the 17 recalled 'dreams', many featuring rivers or ponds. Five of those patients had dreams which involved fear, pain and suffering. One 50-year-old asthmatic man said he had seen himself wade into a reservoir and do a handstand in the shallows. 'Then I walked out of the water and took some deep breaths. In the dream, I was repeating this over and over.' Another patient, a 73-year-old woman with cardiac arrest, saw a cloud filled with dead people. 'It was a dark, gloomy day. I was chanting sutras. I believed they could be saved if they chanted sutras, so that is what I was telling them to do.' Most of the group said they had never heard of Near-Death Experiences before. http://www.pureinsight.org/node/4 Near-Death Experiences Among Survivors of the 1976 Tangshan Earthquake (Chinese) Excerpt: Our subjects reported NDE phemenological items not mentioned, or rarely mentioned in NDE's reported from other countries: sensations of the world being exterminated or ceasing to exist, a sense of weightlessness, a feeling of being pulled or squeezed, ambivalence about death, a feeling of being a different person, or a different kind of person and unusual scents. The predominant phemenological features in our series were feeling estranged from the body as if it belonged to someone else, unusually vivid thoughts, loss of emotions, unusual bodily sensations, life seeming like a dream, a feeling of dying,,, These are not the same phemenological features most commonly found by researchers in other countries. Greyson (1983) reported the most common phemenological feature of American NDE's to be a feeling of peace, joy, time stopping, experiencing an unearthly realm of existence, a feeling of cosmic unity, and a out of body experience. http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Zhi-ying/Zhi-ying-Journal%20of%20Near-Death%20Studies_1992-11-39-48.pdf
But regardless, foreign NDE's are still in stark contrast to the extremely positive NDE's of Judeo-Christian cultures:
Near-Death Experiences in Thailand: Discussion of case histories By Todd Murphy, 1999: Excerpt: We would suggest that the near-constant comparisons with the most frequently reported types of NDEs tends to blind researchers to the features of NDEs which are absent in these NDEs. Tunnels are rare, if not absent. The panoramic Life Review appears to be absent. Instead, our collection shows people reviewing just a few karmically-significant incidents. Perhaps they symbolize behavioral tendencies, the results of which are then experienced as determinative of their rebirths. These incidents are read out to them from a book. There is no Being of Light in these Thai NDEs, although The Buddha does appear in a symbolic form, in case #6. Yama is present during this truncated Life Review, as is the Being of Light during Western life reviews, but Yama is anything but a being of light. In popular Thai depictions, he is shown as a wrathful being, and is most often remembered in Thai culture for his power to condemn one to hell. Some of the functions of Angels and guides are also filled by Yamatoots. They guide, lead tours of hell, and are even seen to grant requests made by the experient. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm
bornagain77
October 3, 2013
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TheisticEvolutionist, You may be interested in this study that was recently done by atheists trying to prove that NDEs were merely hallucinations:
'Afterlife' feels 'even more real than real,' researcher says - Wed April 10, 2013 Excerpt: "If you use this questionnaire ... if the memory is real, it's richer, and if the memory is recent, it's richer," he said. The coma scientists weren't expecting what the tests revealed. "To our surprise, NDEs were much richer than any imagined event or any real event of these coma survivors," Laureys reported. The memories of these experiences beat all other memories, hands down, for their vivid sense of reality. "The difference was so vast," he said with a sense of astonishment. Even if the patient had the experience a long time ago, its memory was as rich "as though it was yesterday," Laureys said. http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/health/belgium-near-death-experiences/
What is interesting in the paper is that even though the researchers in this preceding study found evidence directly contradicting what they had expected to find, they were/are so wedded to the materialistic/naturalistic view of reality, the view of “I’ am my body”, that it seemed sadly impossible for them to even conceive of the fact that they may be wrong in their naturalistic presuppositions which they had going into the experiment, and to even admit to the possibility of the reality/truth of the soul, i.e. to the “I’ am a soul distinct from my body” view of reality. As to the severely distorted, hypocritical, view of evidence atheists have in this area, this article by neurosurgeon Michael Egnor is very interesting,,,
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species (or origin of life), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html "A recent analysis of several hundred cases showed that 48% of near-death experiencers reported seeing their physical bodies from a different visual perspective. Many of them also reported witnessing events going on in the vicinity of their body, such as the attempts of medical personnel to resuscitate them (Kelly et al., 2007)." Kelly, E. W., Greyson, B., & Kelly, E. F. (2007). Unusual experiences near death and related phenomena. In E. F. Kelly, E. W. Kelly, A. Crabtree, A. Gauld, M. Grosso, & B. Greyson, Irreducible mind (pp. 367-421). Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield.
Here is a Doctor commenting on just how real his NDE was:
A Doctor's Near Death Experience Inspires a New Life - video Quote: "It's not like a dream. It's like the world we are living in is a dream and it's kind of like waking up from that." Dr. Magrisso http://www.nbcchicago.com/on-air/as-seen-on/A-Doctor--186331791.html
Further notes refuting all the excuses that have been proffered by atheists to try to circumvent the reality of NDE's
The Scientific Evidence for Near Death Experiences - Dr Jeffrey Long - Melvin Morse M.D. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4454627 Dr. Jeffrey Long: Just how strong is the evidence for a afterlife? - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mptGAc3XWPs
Moreover, there actually is now 'scientific proof', if I may so bold as to use the term, of a beyond space and time component within man:
Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – Stuart Hameroff - video (notes in description) http://vimeo.com/29895068 Quantum Entangled Consciousness (Permanence of Quantum Information)- Life After Death - Stuart Hameroff - video https://vimeo.com/39982578
Further notes:
A Harvard neurosurgeon confronts the non-material nature of consciousness - December 2011 Excerpted quote: To me one thing that has emerged from my experience and from very rigorous analysis of that experience over several years, talking it over with others that I respect in neuroscience, and really trying to come up with an answer, is that consciousness outside of the brain is a fact. It’s an established fact. And of course, that was a hard place for me to get, coming from being a card-toting reductive materialist over decades. It was very difficult to get to knowing that consciousness, that there’s a soul of us that is not dependent on the brain. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/he-said-it-a-neurosurgeon-confronts-the-non-material-nature-of-consciousness/ A Conversation with Near Death Experiencer Harvard Neurosurgeon Eben Alexander III, M.D. with Steve Paulson (Interviewer) - video http://www.btci.org/bioethics/2012/videos2012/vid3.html
bornagain77
October 3, 2013
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BYEC you need to look more closely at the article you pasted in, it is pseudoscience. There's nothing paranormal about the OBE. I have had an OBE myself, in my case it was a case of sleep paralysis. The OBE and the NDE experience can be self-induced by taking drugs, or stimulation of parts of the brain such as the vestibular cortex. Both the OBE and NDE are hallucinatory constructs that can arise from different psychological factors. There's nothing paranormal about them. It's true there's countless paranormal articles and blogs claiming a paranormal interpretation of the OBE but in reality there's no evidence for this, psychology explains it. It's self-deception and wishful thinking claiming that people have visited the afterlife in an NDE experience. There is not a single case on record of an totally inactive "dead" brain whilst someone having an NDE. It's all due to the brain. There are even case studies showing that fantasy proneness has been shown to be high among OBErs than those who have not had an OBE. Please note I am not opposed to an afterlife (I believe in it) and if there was evidence I would love it, but there isn't any. Zusne, L., & Jones, W. H. (1982). Anomalistic Psychology. Hillsdale, NJ: Lawrence Erlbaum. S. Bünning and O. Blanke. (2005) The out-of body experience: precipitating factors and neural correlates. Progress in Brain Research, vol. 150, p. 331-50. Parra, Alejandro. (2009). Out-of-Body Experiences and Hallucinatory Experiences: A Psychological Approach. Journal: Imagination, Cognition and Personality , vol. 29, no. 3, pp. 211-223. Gow, K., Lang, T. and Chant, D. (2004). Fantasy proneness, paranormal beliefs and personality features in out-of-body experiences. Contemp. Hypnosis, 21: 107–125.TheisticEvolutionist
October 3, 2013
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Hi. Just my second post ever (I think). I usually just hang around reading, almost every day (lurking sounds so sinister). My 2 cents. I think it's important to differentiate between the actions of men on their own behalf, and what God, being God, has a right to do, or command to be done. From a human standpoint, of course babies are innocent, and should not be murdered. From God's standpoint the only innocent baby to have ever lived was the Christ child (see Ps. 51:5 for all the rest of us). And though this may seem repugnant to us, God does have the right to take human life, at any age or stage, because no one is innocent by His standards, and he's GOD. Given His greater perspective (seeing all of eternity), God is much more concerned about what happens to us after death (Matt. 10:28), hence Christ's mission. I believe that babies are escorted to heaven at death, including those in Canaan, Flood victims, Holocaust victims, etc. But this fact doesn't mean it's OK for anybody to just kill babies. The Israelites were acting on God's behalf, if they weren't He would not absolve them of guilt for their actions, even as His chosen people. That campaign was for a particular time and circumstance and should not be used to justify genocide today. Besides, God's people are now involved in spiritual battle, not a physical war. Where modern wars are concerned, God will be the final judge of who was right or wrong in their actions. For TheisticEvolutionist: What Happens When We Die?
What was your first interview like with someone who had reported an out-of-body experience? Eye-opening and very humbling. Because what you see is that, first of all, they are completely genuine people who are not looking for any kind of fame or attention. In many cases they haven't even told anybody else about it because they're afraid of what people will think of them. I have about 500 or so cases of people that I've interviewed since I first started out more than 10 years ago. It's the consistency of the experiences, the reality of what they were describing. I managed to speak to doctors and nurses who had been present who said these patients had told them exactly what had happened, and they couldn't explain it. I actually documented a few of those in my book What Happens When We Die because I wanted people to get both angles —not just the patients' side but also the doctors' side — and see how it feels for the doctors to have a patient come back and tell them what was going on. There was a cardiologist that I spoke with who said he hasn't told anyone else about it because he has no explanation for how this patient could have been able to describe in detail what he had said and done. He was so freaked out by it that he just decided not to think about it anymore.
Heaven and Hell NDEs are easy to dismiss for those who don't think there's anything more. But how do you explain unconscious people seeing what is going on with their bodies?BYEC
October 3, 2013
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@35 I think it's best to leave it at was said so far since emotional entanglements only add heat not light to the matter.nightlight
October 3, 2013
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nightlight @ 31, no you misunderstand me. When I say you are evil I don’t mean evil in the sense of “we’re all just flawed human beings trying to muddle our way though and sometimes we make mistakes.” Nope, not at all. I mean you are a seriously evil (perhaps I should use a capital E) person. Anyone who can speak about the ruthless murder of millions with such insouciance doesn’t need an argument; he needs simple correction. Here, let me spell it out for you in words adopted to the meanest understanding: The ruthless murder of millions is evil. Spare us any more of your blitherings to the contrary. If you do not, you will be shown the door.Barry Arrington
October 3, 2013
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Central: Are you suggesting there is a nuanced answer as to whether the holocaust was evil? If so, you are wrong. Are you suggesting there is no possible nuanced answer about God's actions in Canaan 3,500 years ago? If so, you are wrong again.Barry Arrington
October 3, 2013
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bornagain77 the NDE is not evidence for an afterlife it is just hallucination from faulty brain activity. You have been mislead. There is nothing paranormal about near-death experiences: how neuroscience can explain seeing bright lights, meeting the dead, or being convinced you are one of them by Dean Mobbs and Caroline Watt. http://www.koestler-parapsychology.psy.ed.ac.uk/Documents/MobbsWattNDE.pdf
Approximately 3% of Americans declare to have had a near-death experience. These experiences classically involve the feeling that one’s soul has left the body, approaches a bright light and goes to another reality, where love and bliss are all encompassing. Contrary to popular belief, research suggests that there is nothing paranormal about these experiences. Instead, near death experiences are the manifestation of normal brain function gone awry, during a traumatic, and sometimes harmless, event.
As for your comments about people (Americans) experiencing heaven or hell in their NDE, they are consistent with the religious and social structure of the person creating them. Most Americans have been shrowded in the Biblical concepts and stories from birth or school so it is not surprising concepts of heaven or hell make their way into their NDE. Go and look at the reports from Asia. Hindus who experience an NDE report Hindu stuff in their NDE, Buddhists report Buddhist stuff etc and no mention of Biblical heaven or hell. It's all subjective and based on social factors. Highly imaginative and fantasy-prone individuals will produce more detailed NDEs.TheisticEvolutionist
October 3, 2013
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Barry: I assume you will continue to try to score cheap debating points by demanding a “yes or no” answer to a question that requires a highly nuanced answer.
Barry, I respect you and agree with just about everything you say, in every thread you say it, but here you're not being consistent. You have no problem demanding "yes or no" answers out of people when it suits you. (Holocaust: evil, yes or no?) And yet when it comes to the Israelites killing Canaanite babies you demand the privilege of a nuanced answer. Either the Tao in you judges the killing of babies as evil at all times and all places or it doesn't. And if you're not consistent with you application of Tao, why would you expect others to be? Why don't you humbly allow others the right to their nuanced answers? So will you be consistent and fore-go all the "evil, yes or no" type tactics?CentralScrutinizer
October 3, 2013
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@Barry Arrington #19
You say the holocaust was the result of nothing but a flawed "evaluation" on the part of the Nazis.
I didn't say "flawed" but "different" from our present evaluation. They certainly didn't think their perspective and methods were flawed. Eugenics, ethnic cleansing and deliberate mass slaughters of enemy civilians of any age were fine tools of the day in the ethical programs of the era, to them and to all others. The disagreements were merely about what the 'purity' meant, thus who needs to be 'purified' away to achive the utopia. In fact the relabeled and 'humanized' variants of 'purification' techniques are well and alive, and just fine with us too, as long as they bring us closer to our utopia du jour. Of course, as it is always the case, if you're evaluating from within the matrix and staying within your cubicle as instructed, looking only through the designated pinhole, the 'evil' as alive and as afire as ever in which you are active, contributing cog is invisible to you.
And you are evil.
Yep, we all are, being a transient computing technology designed and built to help work out a harmonization problem which is far beyond our computing capacity, hence we're all contributing the best we can to our own discordant solution, the next one in a long series of misses (evils). Looking back at the fate of the previous such technologies, it is quite conceivable that we (enlightened, civilized western societies, humans, or carbon based life altogether) may not figure in the ultimate harmonized solution in the way we hoped for, or even in the more immediate still incomplete ones that are just a bit ahead. In case of such outcome, our present efforts are still valuable in the sense of helping successfully work out 'how it is not to be done'. While that would 'only' amount to yet another among myriad dead ends tried so far, someone had to work this one out and uncover that it is indeed a real dead end with no cracks to squeeze through. Our contribution and role in the more harmonized solution would thus be to serve as a warning no-go sign at the very entrance of the path we are now pursuing with all our little earnestness.nightlight
October 3, 2013
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Central: I adopt Peter J Williams’ answer set forth in the video BA links at 21. I assume you will continue to try to score cheap debating points by demanding a “yes or no” answer to a question that requires a highly nuanced answer. But everyone will know that is what you are doing (i.e., scoring cheap debating points), so I am not concerned about it. Score away.Barry Arrington
October 3, 2013
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Thus to play into your twisted Canaanite thinking, it is objectively evil for God to send people to hell for eternity?bornagain77
October 3, 2013
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