We’ve talked about near-death experiences. What about visions of hell?

_{Denyse O'Leary

December 8, 2019

Intelligent Design, Mind}

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Oddly, even distressing near-death experiences have had positive effects, say researchers:

One researcher observes at Psychology Today that the strongest predictor of a successful suicide attempt is a previous failed suicide attempt—unless the person has had a near-death experience, in which case further suicide attempts are unlikely.
News, “What if a near-death experience is a vision of hell?” at Mind Matters News

Remember when all this was supposed to be easily explained away?

Further reading: Do near-death experiences defy science? NDEs do not defy science. They sometimes challenge human senses, which are based on our biology. For example, if the human eye’s usual limitations were not a factor, previously unknown colors—which we KNOW from science to exist—might be perceived.

and

Why medical scientists take near-death experiences seriously now Today, we know much more about what happens to people when they die—and what we are learning does not support materialism. Near-death experiences are generally seen as real, even among hardcore skeptics and research focuses on how to account for them.

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Comments

For the study of NDE's, as with any scientific investigation, it requires some open-mindedness and a "willingness to follow wherever the evidence leads". I notice some atheists will approach the topic of NDE's having already decided that there is no possibility that they actually are experiences of an after-life. But that's just pre-judging. It's going beyond what the evidence shows. One strong possibility is that NDE's actually do reflect what happens to the human soul (and are evidence that an immaterial soul exists) after death. To dismiss that possibility is unscientific and reveals an atheistic bias. That kind of thing actually damages science.Silver Asiatic_{December 10, 2019
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Axel @ 3 - thanks, and good to see you!Silver Asiatic_{December 10, 2019
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Guys, please, let's be civil. Regardless of anyone's position, it is important to be respectful to everyone. Acting like this is just a sign of immaturity .massam_{December 9, 2019
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Chubs
Wow. Eddie gets exposed as a liar, quote-miner and infant and all it can come back with is to make crap up about me making fun of people with Tourette’s.
Now who’s the liar? Didn’t you say this about me?
Looks like my post in 22 hit a nerve. It caused Reaper timothy Horton/ Occam’s aftershave to go full blown Tourette’s
Ed May prefer not to interact with you because of your repulsive behavior, but I don’t suffer that affliction. You openly call people “ass munching faggots” and try to demean people by comparing them to people who suffer terrible medical conditions (eg, Tourette’s), and don’t see anything wrong with this. You somehow think that because someone’s views are different than yours that your behavior is justified. What you don’t realize is that your abusive behavior says more about your lack of intellect and character than it says about anyone else. What is mystifying is why the moderators of this site would continue to condone your behavior. But, it is their site. If they don’t care about the integrity of the site, they are free to allow whatever behavior they like.Reapers Plague_{December 9, 2019
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Wow. Eddie gets exposed as a liar, quote-miner and infant and all it can come back with is to make crap up about me making fun of people with Tourette's. You are pathetic, even for an evo.ET_{December 9, 2019
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ET
Acartia Eddie, please get a grip. You have lied. You have quote-mined. You have argued like an infant. You have no place to talk about anyone. Yes, my post was relevant as it explains the knee-jerk, spastic reaction by Reaper. People have a right to know why things happen.
So, that justifies making fun of people with a serious medical condition (Tourette’s)? Thank you for reminding me why I stopped responding to your comments. Something, apparently, that most intelligent people here have already decided. Hopefully I won’t make that mistake again.Ed George_{December 9, 2019
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Acartia Eddie, please get a grip. You have lied. You have quote-mined. You have argued like an infant. You have no place to talk about anyone. There wasn't any rant. There wasn't any insult. Just astute observation. Yes, my post was relevant as it explains the knee-jerk, spastic reaction by Reaper. People have a right to know why things happen.ET_{December 9, 2019
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ET
Looks like my post in 22 hit a nerve. It caused Reaper timothy Horton/ Occam’s aftershave to go full blown Tourette’s
Is this relevant to anything? Or just another insulting rant aimed at someone you dislike? Just because you dislike him. You should really try to behave like an adult.Ed George_{December 9, 2019
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Deleted by author.Ed George_{December 9, 2019
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Looks like my post in 22 hit a nerve. It caused Reaper timothy Horton/ Occam's aftershave to go full blown Tourette's. :razz:ET_{December 9, 2019
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Further notes
The Shroud of Turin – Evidence it is authentic Below is a summary of scientific and historical evidence supporting the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin as the ancient burial cloth of the historical Jesus of Nazareth. Excerpt: THE SHROUD AS AN ANCIENT TEXTILE 1988 CARBON-14 TEST REFUTED NEW TESTS DATE THE SHROUD IMAGE FORMATION VERSUS WORK OF AN ARTIST BLOOD EVIDENCE (vs PAINT THEORY) PATHOLOGY OF THE WOUNDS OF CRUCIFIXION AND THE SIGNATURE OF THE HISTORICAL JESUS BURIAL CONSISTENT WITH ANCIENT JEWISH BURIAL CUSTOM HISTORICAL REFERENCES SHROUD ILLUSTRATED IN PRAY MANUSCRIPT THE SUDARIUM CHRISTI - THE FACE CLOTH OF CHRIST THE HISTORICAL CASE FOR JESUS https://www.newgeology.us/presentation24.html Why is the Turin Shroud Authentic? – Giulio Fanti* – November 2018 Conclusion excerpt: If, as discussed above, by authenticity of the Shroud is meant a funerary sheet, of very ancient manufacture, of about 2000 years ago, that wrapped the corpse of a man hard tortured and dead on a cross, all the scientific clues considered seem favorable to this hypothesis. Six [8, 10-14] out of seven independent dating methods (and [9] has been widely criticized) indicate that this linen Sheet is datable to a period including the first century after Christ. The most important Relic of Christianity wrapped a corpse. The blood traces correspond to those of a tortured man. The body image cannot be explained, but the most reliable hypotheses refer to an intense and probably very brief burst of energy. The corpse, endowed with considerable corpse rigidity, remained wrapped in the Shroud for a short period, not exceeding forty hours. All these clues therefore confirm the authenticity of the Shroud [27] https://juniperpublishers.com/gjaa/pdf/GJAA.MS.ID.555707.pdf
Moreover, the repeated ‘voluntary forgetfulness’ of established facts and the repeated ‘distortion of scientific evidence’ by leading critics of the authenticity of the Shroud are gone over in the following paper, and contrary to what the critics would prefer, actually, due to the dishonest tactics the critics themselves have had to resort to to try to refute it, actually bolsters the claim that the Shroud is authentic.
Why is the Turin Shroud Not Fake? – Giulio Fanti* – December 04, 2018 Excerpt page 5: a. As reported above, some important arguments in favor of authenticity are forgotten in an apparently voluntary way. For example the scientific fact [6,19,20,25] that the Shroud wrapped the corpse of a severely tortured man, scourged, crowned with thorns and crucified according to Roman techniques is forgotten when a painting technique to explain the body image of the Shroud is supposed. Other recent results are also forgotten, such as the numismatic dating of the Shroud through the Byzantine coins [25], which sees it already in 692 AD, while someone keeps on stating that the Shroud did not exist before 1300 AD. b. The reality of scientific experiments are distorted and the global result is forgotten at the expense of a particular detail useful for the present goal. For example the work [22] detected the presence of pigments of various colors on the Shroud, probably due to the contamination with other paintings, but only the red pigments have been mentioned in a paper [13] to sustain a particular thesis. c. Statements relative to a distorted reality can be found when for example we read that pollen grains detected by a researcher on the Shroud have not been seen afterwards [13]. In fact, the same kind of pollen grains [29] together with other particles coming from powders vacuumed from the Shroud have been recently detected thus confirming more dated results. d. Not correct statements are still frequent like that asserting that the sample of Shroud used in 1988 for radiocarbon dating had been perfectly cleaned or that the pollutant should weigh about 80% of the total weight of the fabric to reach the age in which Jesus Christ lived in Palestine.,,, https://juniperpublishers.com/gjaa/pdf/GJAA.MS.ID.555715.pdf
Moreover, seeing is believing
Shroud of Turin: From discovery of Photographic Negative, to 3D Information, to Hologram https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-TL4QOCiis Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words “The Lamb” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tmka1l8GAQ
So basically, we have a clothe with a photographic negative image on it that was made well before photography was even invented. Moreover, the photographic negative image has a 3-Dimensional holographic nature to its image that was somehow encoded within the photographic negative well before holography was even known about. Moreover, even with our present day technology, we still cannot replicated the image in all its detail. My question to atheists is this, if you truly believe some mad genius forger in the middle ages made this image, then please prey tell why did this mad genius save all his genius for this supposed forgery alone and not for, say, inventing photography itself since he surely would have required mastery of photography to pull off the forgery? Not to mention mastery of laser holography? Moreover, why did this hypothetical mad super-genius destroy all of his scientific instruments that he would have had to invent in order to make the image? Leonardo da Vinci would not have been worthy to tie the shoe laces of such a hypothetical mad genius! The weight of evidence for the authenticity of the Shroud, like the evidence for Intelligent Design, is simply overwhelming. Yet, (since Reapers Plague refuses to accept the overwhelming evidence for ID in the first place, and believes in Darwinian evolution no matter how ludicrous it is shown to be by the evidence), it is hardly surprising that he also resolutely refuses to accept the overwhelming evidence for the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin. At least he is being consistent in his denial of any evidence that might point towards God. Hardly a praiseworthy virtue for him to possess, but a virtue none-the-less.bornagain77_{December 9, 2019
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"The shroud of Turin? Are you serious? " Serious as a heart attack: First off, given the extreme scrutiny that the Shroud of Turin has been through, (far more than any other ancient relic)
Scientific Papers and Articles (on the Shroud of Turin) https://www.shroud.com/papers.htm
as well as the extremely disingenuous, (i.e. Darwinian), way atheists have tried to refute the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin, I hold the Shroud to be 100% authentic: First, the carbon dating has been overturned
Shroud of Turin – Carbon 14 Test Proven False – – Joseph G. Marino and M. Sue Benford – video (with Raymond Rogers, lead chemist from the STURP project) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxDdx6vxthE Studies on the radiocarbon sample from the shroud of Turin – Raymond N. Rogers – 2004 Abstract In 1988, radiocarbon laboratories at Arizona, Cambridge, and Zurich determined the age of a sample from the Shroud of Turin. They reported that the date of the cloth’s production lay between A.D. 1260 and 1390 with 95% confidence. This came as a surprise in view of the technology used to produce the cloth, its chemical composition, and the lack of vanillin in its lignin. The results prompted questions about the validity of the sample. Preliminary estimates of the kinetics constants for the loss of vanillin from lignin indicate a much older age for the cloth than the radiocarbon analyses. The radiocarbon sampling area is uniquely coated with a yellow–brown plant gum containing dye lakes. Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud.,,, The fact that vanillin can not be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicates that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years. http://www.shroud.it/ROGERS-3.PDF NEW TESTS DATE THE SHROUD New experiments date the Shroud of Turin to the 1st century AD. They comprise three tests; two chemical and one mechanical. The chemical tests were done with Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy (FTIR) and Raman spectroscopy, examining the relationship between age and a spectral property of ancient flax textiles. The mechanical test measured several micro-mechanical characteristics of flax fibers, such as tensile strength. The results were compared to similar tests on samples of cloth from between 3250 BC and 2000 AD whose dates are accurately known. FTIR identifies chemical bonds in a molecule by producing an infrared absorption spectrum. The spectra produce a profile of the sample, a distinctive molecular fingerprint that can be used to identify its components. Raman Spectroscopy uses the light scattered off of a sample as opposed to the light absorbed by a sample. It is a very sensitive method of identifying specific chemicals. The tests on fibers from the Shroud of Turin produced the following dates: FTIR = 300 BC + 400 years; Raman spectroscopy = 200 BC + 500 years; and multi-parametric mechanical = 400 AD + 400 years. All the dates have a 95% certainty. The average of all three dates is 33 BC + 250 years (the collective uncertainty is less than the individual test uncertainties). The average date is compatible with the historic date of Jesus’ death on the cross in 30 AD, and is far older than the medieval dates obtained with the flawed Carbon-14 sample in 1988. The range of uncertainty for each test is high because the number of sample cloths used for comparison was low; 8 for FTIR, 11 for Raman, and 12 for the mechanical test. The scientists note that “future calibrations based on a greater number of samples and coupled with ad hoc cleaning procedures could significantly improve its accuracy, though it is not easy to find ancient samples adequate for the test.” They used tiny fibers extracted from the Shroud by micro-analyst Giovanni Riggi di Numana, who gave them to Fanti. Riggi passed away in 2008, but he had been involved in the intensive scientific examination of the Shroud of Turin by the STURP group in 1978, and on April 21, 1988 was the man who cut from the Shroud the thin 7 x 1 cm sliver of linen that was used for carbon dating. These tests were carried out in University of Padua laboratories by professors from various Italian universities, led by Giulio Fanti, Italian professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at the University of Padua’s engineering faculty. He co-authored reports of the findings in 1) a paper in the journal Vibrational Spectroscopy, July 2013, “Non-destructive dating of ancient flax textiles by means of vibrational spectroscopy” by Giulio Fanti, Pietro Baraldi, Roberto Basso, and Anna Tinti, Volume 67, pages 61-70; 2) a paper titled “A new cyclic-loads machine for the measurement of micro-mechanical properties of single flax fibers coming from the Turin Shroud” by Giulio Fanti and Pierandrea Malfi for the XXI AIMETA (Italian Association of Theoretical and Applied Mechanics) congress in 2013, and 3) the 2013 book “Il Mistero della Sindone” (The Mystery of the Shroud), written by Giulio Fanti and Saverio Gaeta in Italian. https://www.newgeology.us/presentation24.html
Here is a video from Robert Villarreal, friend of the late Raymond Rodgers (lead chemist on STURP). Villarreal is a scientist at the Los Alamos laboratory:
Shroud Carbon Dating Overturned By Scientific Peer Review – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlFTVv2l0L4
bornagain77_{December 9, 2019
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Darwin, Galton, Haeckel, Huxley, Sanger, Nietzsche … all with common interest in and support of evolution and eugenics.Silver Asiatic_{December 9, 2019
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What?
Unless you are a Jew, Hindu, Muslim, Shinto, Native American, native Australian, Incan, Mayan, Wiccan, or any number of other religions.
Someone needs a nap. No one on Earth gets to decide that. Grow upET_{December 9, 2019
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If NDEs are occurring as frequently as some say they are then resurrection from the dead is commonplace.
What language is that? It looks like English, but read like English, it does not. Near. Death. Experience. NEAR being the operative word. As opposed to a REAL death experience. Almost dead as opposed to dead. Being almost dead does not require a resurrection. Is there a medical doctor in the house?ET_{December 9, 2019
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Sometimes they're referred to as "clinical death" experiences, since "life functions" ceased for a time. However, it may still be true that it's not actually "death" with all of its finality. A person could still encounter an experience "beyond life" though, since heart and brain are not active. Where a dream-state or hallucination are not a good explanation though since studies show common elements among NDEs and they're actually analyzed well-enough to describe stages that persons of widely varying backgrounds go through. If NDEs were just dreams or personal hallucinations we wouldn't find those similarities and patterns.Silver Asiatic_{December 9, 2019
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BA77
Reapers Plague is purposely confusing Jesus’s victory over death itself with ‘merely’ a soul returning to its body. I provided evidence, via the Shroud of Turin, that Jesus’s death was anything but ordinary.
The shroud of Turin? Are you serious? We might as well be talking about baraminology, pyramid power, and alien abductions.
The eternal life that Jesus promises, as any gradeschooler in Sunday school can tell you, is in HEAVEN with Him, not here on this earth.
Unless you are a Jew, Hindu, Muslim, Shinto, Native American, native Australian, Incan, Mayan, Wiccan, or any number of other religions. Where have I heard this “Master Race” rhetoric before?Reapers Plague_{December 9, 2019
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For unbiased readers: First of all note that Reapers Plague, although Near Death Experiences in and of themselves refute his atheistic worldview, none-the-less, grants the validity of NDEs just so as to be able to argue against the validity of Christianity. In doing so, he reveals his real motive. i.e. His animus is against Christianity. In short, Reapers Plague does not really care if atheistic materialism is true or not just so long as he can attack Christianity by any means possible. Anyways, irrational hostility aside,,, Reapers Plague claims, "If NDEs are occurring as frequently as some say they are then resurrection from the dead is commonplace. Not limited to Jesus." Reapers Plague is purposely confusing Jesus's victory over death itself with 'merely' a soul returning to its body. I provided evidence, via the Shroud of Turin, that Jesus's death was anything but ordinary. Reapers Plague purposely ignored that evidence and just restated his fallacious talking point as if physical evidence was not presented. That is, to put it mildly, disingenuous of him and reveals that he is not really interested in sincerely seeking the truth. And then, in response to this, "Jesus, in his resurrection from the dead, forever conquered death itself." RP claimed, "For who? Certainly not for us. I’m pretty sure that both you and I are going to die. And as he is purported to be immortal, omniscient and omnipresent, it wasn’t possible for him to die." You got to be kidding me. The eternal life that Jesus promises, as any gradeschooler in Sunday school can tell you, is in HEAVEN with Him, not here on this earth. For instance, the thief on the cross next to Jesus was not promised to be delivered from death of his physical body on the cross at that moment, (as the other criminal on the other cross wanted), but was instead promised eternal life in 'paradise' with Jesus:
Luke 23:42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” 43 And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”…
Regardless of whatever irrational bias Reapers Plague has against Christianity, the evidence for the validity of NDEs is overwhelming. In terms of validating evidence, Darwinists have nothing close in terms of validating their claims. And to repeat, that in and of itself, despite his personal animus against Christianity, refutes his atheistic/materialistic worldview:
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist’s Evidentiary Standards to the Test – Dr. Michael Egnor – October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE’s are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception — such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE’s have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most “parsimonious” explanation — the simplest scientific explanation — is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a protein/gene, or of a molecular machine), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE’s show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it’s earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it’s all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html
supplemental note as to Christianity and NDEs:
The Easter Question - Eben Alexander, M.D. - March 2013 Excerpt: More than ever since my near death experience, I consider myself a Christian -,,, Now, I can tell you that if someone had asked me, in the days before my NDE, what I thought of this (Easter) story, I would have said that it was lovely. But it remained just that -- a story. To say that the physical body of a man who had been brutally tortured and killed could simply get up and return to the world a few days later is to contradict every fact we know about the universe. It wasn't simply an unscientific idea. It was a downright anti-scientific one. But it is an idea that I now believe. Not in a lip-service way. Not in a dress-up-it's-Easter kind of way. I believe it with all my heart, and all my soul.,, We are, really and truly, made in God's image. But most of the time we are sadly unaware of this fact. We are unconscious both of our intimate kinship with God, and of His constant presence with us. On the level of our everyday consciousness, this is a world of separation -- one where people and objects move about, occasionally interacting with each other, but where essentially we are always alone. But this cold dead world of separate objects is an illusion. It's not the world we actually live in.,,, ,,He (God) is right here with each of us right now, seeing what we see, suffering what we suffer... and hoping desperately that we will keep our hope and faith in Him. Because that hope and faith will be triumphant. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eben-alexander-md/the-easter-question_b_2979741.html
bornagain77_{December 9, 2019
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BA77
Jesus’s resurrection was anything but mundane.
If NDEs are occurring as frequently as some say they are then resurrection from the dead is commonplace. Not limited to Jesus.
Jesus, in his resurrection from the dead, forever conquered death itself.
For who? Certainly not for us. I'm pretty sure that both you and I are going to die. And as he is purported to be immortal, omniscient and omnipresent, it wasn't possible for him to die.Reapers Plague_{December 9, 2019
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Reapers Plague claims that.
If these are actual experiences while the person was dead then the resurrection of Jesus was not a miracle, just an event that happens every day. Almost mundane.
Jesus's resurrection was anything but mundane. Jesus, in his resurrection from the dead, forever conquered death itself.
Acts 2:24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.
Everyone else who has been dead for a while and has come back to life, never-the-less. dies again. i.e. Their reprieve from death was temporary. Jesus, on the other hand, ascended to the right hand of God the Father in heaven and never died again.
Acts 1:9-12 9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
Because He conquered death itself, that is exactly why Jesus has the power bestowed within Himself to grant eternal life to us:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Just how out of the ordinary Jesus's resurrection from the dead was is testified to by the Shroud of Turin: To give us a small glimpse of the power that was involved in Christ's resurrection from the dead, the following recent article found that, ”it would take 34 Thousand Billion Watts of VUV radiations to make the image on the shroud. This output of electromagnetic energy remains beyond human technology.”
Astonishing discovery at Christ’s tomb supports Turin Shroud – NOV 26TH 2016 Excerpt: The first attempts made to reproduce the face on the Shroud by radiation, used a CO2 laser which produced an image on a linen fabric that is similar at a macroscopic level. However, microscopic analysis showed a coloring that is too deep and many charred linen threads, features that are incompatible with the Shroud image. Instead, the results of ENEA “show that a short and intense burst of VUV directional radiation can color a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin, including shades of color, the surface color of the fibrils of the outer linen fabric, and the absence of fluorescence”. ‘However, Enea scientists warn, “it should be noted that the total power of VUV radiations required to instantly color the surface of linen that corresponds to a human of average height, body surface area equal to = 2000 MW/cm2 17000 cm2 = 34 thousand billion watts makes it impractical today to reproduce the entire Shroud image using a single laser excimer, since this power cannot be produced by any VUV light source built to date (the most powerful available on the market come to several billion watts )”. Comment The ENEA study of the Holy Shroud of Turin concluded that it would take 34 Thousand Billion Watts of VUV radiations to make the image on the shroud. This output of electromagnetic energy remains beyond human technology. http://westvirginianews.blogspot.com/2011/12/new-study-claims-shroud-of-turin-is.html
Verse:
Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
And to remind, Jesus's resurrection from the dead provides the correct solution for the much sought after 'theory of everything':
,,, allowing the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics, as the Christian founders of modern science originally envisioned,,,, (Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, James Clerk Maxwell, and Max Planck, to name a few of the Christian founders),,, and as quantum mechanics itself now empirically demands (with the closing of the free will loophole by Anton Zeilinger and company), rightly allowing the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics provides us with a very plausible resolution for the much sought after ‘theory of everything’ in that Christ’s resurrection from the dead provides an empirically backed reconciliation, via the Shroud of Turin, between quantum mechanics and general relativity into the much sought after ‘Theory of Everything”. Here are a few posts where I lay out and defend some of the evidence for that claim: November 2019 - despite the fact that virtually everyone, including the vast majority of Christians, hold that the Copernican Principle is unquestionably true, the fact of the matter is that the Copernican Principal is now empirically shown, (via quantum mechanics and general relativity, etc..), to be a false assumption. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/so-then-maybe-we-are-privileged-observers/#comment-688855 To support Isabel Piczek’s claim that the Shroud of Turin does indeed reveal a true ‘event horizon’, the following study states that ‘The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image.’,,, Moreover, besides gravity being dealt with, the shroud also gives us evidence that Quantum Mechanics was dealt with. In the following paper, it was found that it was not possible to describe the image formation on the Shroud in classical terms but they found it necessary to describe the formation of the image on the Shroud in discrete quantum terms. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/experiment-quantum-particles-can-violate-the-mathematical-pigeonhole-principle/#comment-673178 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/experiment-quantum-particles-can-violate-the-mathematical-pigeonhole-principle/#comment-673179
bornagain77_{December 9, 2019
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Severski (@ 12), You make an important point in that these are called near death experiences. Many of them document cardiac arrest. Lingering cellular life could be existing waiting for restoration of a heart beat. However, a surprising number have also been out of body experiences. People saw things that there was no way they could have known about unless their soul was wandering around. This documentation is possibly more damning to a materialist world view - these involved specific material things that were seen and occurred in the world. The only problem is - the person who reported it could not have know about it. He or she was dead/totally unconscious at the time. For the record - My wife is an RN and had an experience with a patient which was totally unexplainable in view of his being in cardiac arrest at the time. Thank You and God BlessGCS_{December 9, 2019
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If these are actual experiences while the person was dead then the resurrection of Jesus was not a miracle, just an event that happens every day. Almost mundane.Reapers Plague_{December 9, 2019
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Seversky apparently thinks he can proclaim what is possible and not possible from his a-apriori materialistic presuppositions. Perhaps if Seversky could explain how life can possibly arise from purely materialistic processes he might have a case. He has no clue. Thus that renders his speculations moot.bornagain77_{December 9, 2019
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I have no problem accepting that patients reporting NDEs did experience what they claim. The problem is that they are near death experiences. They did not actually die since death, by definition, is a state from which you do not recover. Since they did not die they could not have experienced any afterlife, whether heavenly or hellish. This leaves some sort of dream-like state or hallucination as an explanation of the experiences.Seversky_{December 9, 2019
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Well Doubter, I did not say mind did I? I said soul did I not.
we now have very strong empirical evidence suggesting that we do indeed have an eternal soul that is capable of living beyond the death of our material bodies.
The typical rejoinder, as you yourself pointed out, to the 'hard problem of consciousness' that you highlighted, and to the problem of how the mind and brain can possibly interact, is that the brain is held to be somewhat of a 'receiver of consciousness' instead of being a generator of consciousness. To quote Pim van Lommel who has done extensive research on NDEs
A Reply to Shermer - Medical Evidence for NDEs - Pim van Lommel Excerpt: In trying to understand this concept of mutual interaction between the 'invisible and not measurable' consciousness, with its enormous amount of information, and our visible, material body it seems wise to compare it with modern worldwide communication. There is a continuous exchange of objective information by means of electromagnetic fields (real photons) for radio, TV, mobile telephone, or laptop computer. We are unaware of the innumerable amounts of electromagnetic fields that constantly, day and night, exist around us and through us as well as through structures like walls and buildings. We only become aware of these electromagnetic informational fields the moment we use our mobile telephone or by switching on our radio, TV or laptop. What we receive is not inside the instrument, nor in the components, but thanks to the receiver the information from the electromagnetic fields becomes observable to our senses and hence perception occurs in our consciousness. The voice we hear in our telephone is not inside the telephone. The concert we hear in our radio is transmitted to our radio. The images and music we hear and see on TV is transmitted to our TV set. The internet is not located inside our laptop. We can receive at about the same time what is transmitted with the speed of light from a distance of some hundreds or thousands of miles. And if we switch off the TV set, the reception disappears, but the transmission continues. The information transmitted remains present within the electromagnetic fields. The connection has been interrupted, but it has not vanished and can still be received elsewhere by using another TV set. Again, we do not realize us the thousands of telephone calls, the hundreds of radio and TV transmissions, as well as the internet, coded as electromagnetic fields, that exist around us and through us. Could our brain be compared with the TV set that electromagnetic waves (photons) receives and transforms into image and sound, as well as with the TV camera that image and sound transforms into electromagnetic waves (photons)? This electromagnetic radiation holds the essence of all information, but is only conceivable to our senses by suited instruments like camera and TV set. The informational fields of our consciousness and of our memories, both evaluating by our experiences and by the informational imput from our sense organs during our lifetime, are present around us as electrical and/or magnetic fields [possible virtual photons? (18)], and these fields only become available to our waking consciousness through our functioning brain and other cells of our body. So we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. And as soon as the function of brain has been lost, like in clinical death or in brain death, with iso-electricity on the EEG, memories and consciousness do still exist, but the reception ability is lost. People can experience their consciousness outside their body, with the possibility of perception out and above their body, with identity, and with heightened awareness, attention, well-structured thought processes, memories and emotions. And they also can experience their consciousness in a dimension where past, present and future exist at the same moment, without time and space, and can be experienced as soon as attention has been directed to it (life review and preview), and even sometimes they come in contact with the 'fields of consciousness' of deceased relatives. And later they can experience their conscious return into their body. Michael Shermer states that, in reality, all experience is mediated and produced by the brain, and that so-called paranormal phenomena like out-of body experiences are nothing more than neuronal events. The study of patients with NDE, however, clearly shows us that consciousness with memories, cognition, with emotion, self-identity, and perception out and above a life-less body is experienced during a period of a non-functioning brain (transient pancerebral anoxia). And focal functional loss by inhibition of local cortical regions happens by 'stimulation' of those regions with electricity (photons) or with magnetic fields (photons), resulting sometimes in out-of-body states. To quote Michael Shermer: it is the job of science to solve those puzzles with natural, rather than supernatural, explanations. But one has to be aware of the progress of science, and to study recent literature, to know what is going on in current science. For me science is asking questions with an open mind, and not being afraid to reconsider widely accepted but scientifically not proven concepts like the concept that consciousness and memories are a product of the brain. But also we should realize that we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. There are still a lot of mysteries to solve, but one has not to talk about paranormal, supernatural or pseudoscience to look for scientific answers on the intriguing relation between consciousness and memories with the brain. https://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Research/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm
Of related interest: At about the 16:30 minute mark of the following video, an interesting experiment on the sleeping brain is highlighted in which it is demonstrated that there is a fairly profound difference in the way the brain ‘shares information’ between different parts of the brain in its sleeping state compared to how the brain ‘shares information’ in its waking state. i.e. In the sleeping state, the brain shares much less information with different parts of the brain than the brain does during our waking state.
Through The Wormhole s02e01 Is There Life After Death – video (16:30 minute mark) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XhrDrqmXE4 Of note, the preceding video, after you sign up, can be watched in much better quality at this following site (season 2 episode 1) https://www.sciencechannel.com/tv-shows/through-the-wormhole/ Researchers: Deep sleep short-circuits brain’s grid of connectivity - September 29, 2005 Excerpt: Tononi and his team observed the disconnect when brief, magnetically generated pulses of electricity were directed to specific regions of the brain. The pulses stimulated an electrochemical response from the targeted cells, which, when the subject was awake, rippled across the brain, traveling along networks of nerve fibers to different cerebral destinations. But when the subject was in deep sleep, the same response was quickly extinguished and did not travel beyond the stimulated cells. When consciousness fades, according to Tononi, “the brain breaks down into little islands that can’t talk to one another.” https://news.wisc.edu/researchers-deep-sleep-short-circuits-brains-grid-of-connectivity/
Also of related note:
Study targets 'fingerprint' of human consciousness - OCTOBER 11, 2019 Excerpt: "Remarkably, we saw very similar results in the two groups of participants scanned on opposite sides of the Atlantic. Specifically, loss of consciousness—whether due to propofol anaesthesia or brain injury—was accompanied by reduced functional diversity and integrative capacity in similar brain networks, which may represent a neurobiological marker or 'brain fingerprint' for consciousness," Owen said. Put simply, functional diversity and integrative capacity are properties of the brain that reveal how much information is being exchanged and integrated between different brain regions. https://medicalxpress.com/news/2019-10-fingerprint-human-consciousness.html
The interesting thing about these long range correlations in the brain, long range correlations that differentiate a sleeping brain from a brain that is awake, is that the long range correlations are found to be, for all intents and purposes, 'instantaneous'
The Puzzling Role Of Biophotons In The Brain - Dec. 17, 2010 Excerpt: It’s certainly true that electrical activity in the brain is synchronised over distances that cannot be easily explained. Electrical signals travel too slowly to do this job, so something else must be at work.,,, ,,, It’s a big jump to assume that photons do this job. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/422069/the-puzzling-role-of-biophotons-in-the-brain/ ,,, zero time lag neuronal synchrony despite long conduction delays - 2008 Excerpt: Multielectrode recordings have revealed zero time lag synchronization among remote cerebral cortical areas. However, the axonal conduction delays among such distant regions can amount to several tens of milliseconds. It is still unclear which mechanism is giving rise to isochronous discharge of widely distributed neurons, despite such latencies,,, Remarkably, synchrony of neuronal activity is not limited to short-range interactions within a cortical patch. Interareal synchronization across cortical regions including interhemispheric areas has been observed in several tasks (7, 9, 11–14).,,, Beyond its functional relevance, the zero time lag synchrony among such distant neuronal ensembles must be established by mechanisms that are able to compensate for the delays involved in the neuronal communication. Latencies in conducting nerve impulses down axonal processes can amount to delays of several tens of milliseconds between the generation of a spike in a presynaptic cell and the elicitation of a postsynaptic potential (16). The question is how, despite such temporal delays, the reciprocal interactions between two brain regions can lead to the associated neural populations to fire in unison (i.e. zero time lag).,,, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2575223/
In other words, 'non-local', beyond space and time, quantum entanglement must be invoke to explain why we even wake up in the first place. Materialism simply has no beyond space and time cause to appeal to in order to explain 'non-local' entanglement. Whereas we Christian Theists, on the other hand, do have a beyond space and time cause to appeal to so as to explain these long range quantum correlations and thus explain how it is even possible for us to wake up:
Isaiah 50:4 The Sovereign LORD has given me a well-instructed tongue, to know the word that sustains the weary. He wakens me morning by morning, wakens my ear to listen like one being instructed.
Thus Doubter, your claim that "The soul exists, but its nature still totally eludes scientific understanding" simply is not true. It would be more proper for you to state that ii totally eludes a materialistic understanding of science. But we are not beholden to, or encumbered by, the false philosophical doctrine of materialism are we Doubter?bornagain77_{December 9, 2019
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BA77@5:
The implication of finding ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, and ‘conserved’, quantum information in molecular biology on such a massive scale, in every important biomolecule in our bodies, is fairly, and pleasantly, obvious. That pleasant implication, of course, being the fact that we now have very strong empirical evidence suggesting that we do indeed have an eternal soul that is capable of living beyond the death of our material bodies. As Stuart Hameroff states in the following article, the quantum information,,, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed.,,, it’s possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.”
It seems to me that Hameroff and Penrose with their quantum mechanical neural microtubules theory still run afoul of Chalmers' good old "Hard Problem" of consciousness, which invalidates all physicalist theories of consciousness. Ultimately, like most neuroscientists they still view consciousness as the workings of some sort of neurological mechanisms. The supposed quantum mechanical information in the microtubules is still inherently physical. Neither this theory or any other mechanistic neurological theory can evade Chalmers' famous Hard Problem of consciousness, where the properties of conscious awareness are realized to be in an entirely different existential realm than the properties of matter, energy and space. Some examples with conscious awareness: - qualities of subjective awareness - qualia, i.e. blueness, redness, loudness, softness - subjectivity: what it is like to be a person, a conscious agent - intentionality - the quality of directing toward achieving an object - aboutness: being about something - this object of aboutness may be totally immaterial as in abstract thought, i.e. a thought about the number pi What are the properties of all proposed theoretical biological/neurological mechanisms for consciousness? These are the ultimately physically measurable physics parameters involved in neuronal interactions through synaptic junctions or "quantum entanglement" or whatever. Measured classical parameters include forces, field strengths, masses, charges, velocities, etc. All of this amounts to "things" of some sort, not thoughts. The properties of mental phenomena such as the examples given can't be derived from the properties of the ultimately physical phenomena utilized by Hameroff's theories. They are in entirely different existential categories. So this seems to leave consciousness as some sort of epiphenomenal illusion as imagined by the hard-line materialists, where what it is that is experiencing this illusion is undefined. But consciousness can't be a powerless epiphenomenon because consciousness has causative power in the world. And to try to propose something called "emergence" is just to evoke another mysterious miracle. Aside from all this related to the Hard Problem, a large body of paranormal empirical evidence has been accumulated that clearly indicates that human consciousness is ultimately independent of the physical brain. This is especially in the area of NDEs including many cases of very clear consciousness NDEs occurring while the physical brain is not functioning or only to a small degree, as in cardiac arrest. And of course there are hundreds of veridical NDEs where the experiencer came back with numerous verified pieces of information simply not physically available to the unconscious bed-ridden NDEer. Other areas are the several thousand investigated and verified reincarnation cases including a number involving correlated birthmarks/birth defects, and investigated and verified mediumistic communications. The soul exists, but its nature still totally eludes scientific understanding. The core mystery remains, and may simply not be scientifically understandable by humans any more than a monkey can understand differential equations. Certainly a physical brain is necessary for consciousness to manifest in the physical world. The best metaphor or simile would be the TV set analogy. The TV set interfaces between the immaterial electromagnetic waves carrying the picture information, and the physical display. The TV is essential for the manifestation of the TV show in the physical world, and disruption of its various component parts will distort or destroy that displayed picture, but the TV set does not actually generate the displayed program. Any more than the brain microtubules or whatever generate consciousness.doubter_{December 9, 2019
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Pater Kimbridge @ 4
Did you read the article? Nobody had a “vision of hell”
I don't think that article exhausts everything that has been experienced in NDEs. I just googled Vision of Hell NDESilver Asiatic_{December 9, 2019
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Thus it is not surprising that atheists would claim, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, that NDEs are just 'dreams'. EVERYTHING, including the atheist himself, is ultimately illusory and imaginary in his materialistic worldview. In fact, the only thing that is to be considered 'real' in the atheists' worldview is "the material constituents postulated by our most fundamental physical theories."
What Does It Mean to Say That Science & Religion Conflict? - M. Anthony Mills - April 16, 2018 Excerpt: Barr rightly observes that scientific atheists often unwittingly assume not just metaphysical naturalism but an even more controversial philosophical position: reductive materialism, which says all that exists is or is reducible to the material constituents postulated by our most fundamental physical theories. As Barr points out, this implies not only that God does not exist — because God is not material — but that you do not exist. For you are not a material constituent postulated by any of our most fundamental physical theories; at best, you are an aggregate of those constituents, arranged in a particular way. Not just you, but tables, chairs, countries, countrymen, symphonies, jokes, legal contracts, moral judgments, and acts of courage or cowardice — all of these must be fully explicable in terms of those more fundamental, material constituents. In fact, more problematic for the materialist than the non-existence of persons is the existence of mathematics. Why? Although a committed materialist might be perfectly willing to accept that you do not really exist, he will have a harder time accepting that numbers do not exist. The trouble is that numbers — along with other mathematical entities such as classes, sets, and functions — are indispensable for modern science. And yet — here’s the rub — these “abstract objects” are not material. Thus, one cannot take science as the only sure guide to reality and at the same time discount disbelief in all immaterial realities. https://www.realclearreligion.org/articles/2018/04/16/what_does_it_mean_to_say_that_science_and_religion_conflict.html
Yet, in irony of ironies, not even the material particles themselves turn out to be solid, and concrete, and therefore 'real' on the materialistic definition of what is supposed to be ‘real’, but the supposedly solid and concrete material particles themselves turn out instead to be made of “abstract” immaterial information that represent, as Werner Heinsenberg himself stated, "our knowledge of this behavior”
“The conception of objective reality of the elementary particles has thus evaporated not into the cloud of some obscure new reality concept but into the transparent clarity of a mathematics that represents no longer the behavior of particles but rather our knowledge of this behavior” – Werner Heinsenberg – The Representation of Nature in Contemporary Physics – pg. 100
And as John Wheeler himself stated, "in short all matter and all things physical are information-theoretic in origin and this is a participatory universe."
"it from bit” Every “it”— every particle, every field of force, even the space-time continuum itself derives its function, its meaning, its very existence entirely—even if in some contexts indirectly—from the apparatus-elicited answers to yes-or-no questions, binary choices, bits. “It from bit” symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has a bottom—a very deep bottom, in most instances, an immaterial source and explanation, that which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions and the registering of equipment—evoked responses, in short all matter and all things physical are information-theoretic in origin and this is a participatory universe." – Princeton University physicist John Wheeler (1911–2008) (Wheeler, John A. (1990), “Information, physics, quantum: The search for links”, in W. Zurek, Complexity, Entropy, and the Physics of Information (Redwood City, California: Addison-Wesley))
That is to say, according to quantum theory, the most fundamental ‘stuff’ of the world is not even the 'stuff' of matter or energy at all, (as Atheistic materialists had originally presupposed), but it turns out the most fundamental stuff of the universe is ‘abstract’ immaterial information itself (and even our relation as to how we 'participate' with this immaterial information). As Professor Vedral of Oxford stated, “The most fundamental definition of reality is not matter or energy, but information”,,,
“The most fundamental definition of reality is not matter or energy, but information–and it is the processing of information that lies at the root of all physical, biological, economic, and social phenomena.” Vlatko Vedral – Professor of Physics at the University of Oxford, and CQT (Centre for Quantum Technologies) at the National University of Singapore, and a Fellow of Wolfson College .
And as leading experimentalist Anton Zeilinger states in the following video, “It is operationally impossible to separate Reality and Information”,,, And Dr. Zeilinger even goes on to note the Theological significance of finding immaterial information to be the most fundamental definition of reality. Specifically, he cites John 1:1 which states “In the beginning was the Word”
“It is operationally impossible to separate Reality and Information” (48:35 minute mark) “In the beginning was the Word” John 1:1 (49:54 minute mark) Prof Anton Zeilinger speaks on quantum physics. at UCT https://youtu.be/s3ZPWW5NOrw?t=2984
Or to put the implications from these recent advances in quantum mechanics much more simply, as Physics professor Richard Conn Henry put it at the end of the following article, “The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy.”
The mental Universe – Richard Conn Henry The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things. Excerpt: “The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy.” – Richard Conn Henry is a Professor in the Henry A. Rowland Department of Physics and Astronomy, The Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Maryland http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/The.mental.universe.pdf
Thus far from consciousness and our sense of self being illusory, as Darwinian materialists are forced to believe because of their unwarranted presupposition of reductive materialism and/or methodological naturalism, it turns out that the material particles themselves are what is in fact found to be abstract and illusory. As Physics professor Richard Conn Henry further stated in response to the experimental falsification of 'realism' by Leggett’s inequality, “if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the “illusion” of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism”,,,
Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry – Physics Professor – John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the “illusion” of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one’s own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry’s referenced experiment and paper – “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 – “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 (Leggett’s Inequality: Violated, as of 2011, to 120 standard deviations) http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html
Thus, although the Darwinist may firmly believe that he is on the terra firma of science (in his appeal, even demand, for reductive materialism and/or methodological naturalism), the fact of the matter is that, when examining the details of his materialistic/naturalistic worldview, it is found that Darwinian Atheists are adrift in an ocean of fantasy and imagination with no discernible anchor for reality to grab on to. Even the material particles themselves turn out to be illusory. It would be hard to fathom a worldview more antagonistic to modern science, indeed more antagonistic to reality itself, than Atheistic materialism and/or methodological naturalism have turned out to be.
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Not that atheists have ever listened to any of my suggestions before, but if atheists were ever inclined to listen to any of my suggestions, might I suggest that Atheists base their lives on the solid foundation of Christianity instead of on the foundation of sand that Atheistic Materialism has turned out to be?
Matthew 7:24-27 24 “Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock. 25 Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won’t collapse because it is built on bedrock. 26 But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn’t obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand. 27 When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.”
bornagain77_{December 9, 2019
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Ed George states,
So, NDE’s can be pleasant or unpleasant. Just like dreams.
In regards to the claim from Darwinian atheists that NDEs are just 'dreams', in the following study, materialistic researchers who had a bias against Near Death Experiences being real, set out to prove that they were ‘false memories’ by setting up a clever questionnaire that could differentiate which memories a person had were real and which memories a person had were merely imaginary. Simply put, they did not expect the results they got: to quote the headline 'Afterlife' feels 'even more real than real”
'Afterlife' feels 'even more real than real,' researcher says - Wed April 10, 2013 Excerpt: "If you use this questionnaire ... if the memory is real, it's richer, and if the memory is recent, it's richer," he said. The coma scientists weren't expecting what the tests revealed. "To our surprise, NDEs were much richer than any imagined event or any real event of these coma survivors," Laureys reported. The memories of these experiences beat all other memories, hands down, for their vivid sense of reality. "The difference was so vast," he said with a sense of astonishment. Even if the patient had the experience a long time ago, its memory was as rich "as though it was yesterday," Laureys said. http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/health/belgium-near-death-experiences/ Memories of Near Death Experiences (NDEs): More Real Than Reality? - Mar. 27, 2013 Excerpt: University of Liège ,,,researchers,, have looked into the memories of NDE with the hypothesis that if the memories of NDE were pure products of the imagination, their phenomenological characteristics (e.g., sensorial, self referential, emotional, etc. details) should be closer to those of imagined memories. Conversely, if the NDE are experienced in a way similar to that of reality, their characteristics would be closer to the memories of real events. The researchers compared the responses provided by three groups of patients, each of which had survived (in a different manner) a coma, and a group of healthy volunteers. They studied the memories of NDE and the memories of real events and imagined events with the help of a questionnaire which evaluated the phenomenological characteristics of the memories. The results were surprising. From the perspective being studied, not only were the NDEs not similar to the memories of imagined events, but the phenomenological characteristics inherent to the memories of real events (e.g. memories of sensorial details) are even more numerous in the memories of NDE than in the memories of real events. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130327190359.htm
Here are a few quotes on the 'more real than real' attribute of Near Death Experiences:
A Doctor's Near Death Experience Inspires a New Life - video Quote: "It's not like a dream. It's like the world we are living in is a dream and it's kind of like waking up from that." Dr. Magrisso http://www.nbcchicago.com/on-air/as-seen-on/A-Doctor--186331791.html "More real than anything I've experienced since. When I came back of course I had 34 operations, and was in the hospital for 13 months. That was real but heaven is more real than that. The emotions and the feelings. The reality of being with people who had preceded me in death." - Don Piper - "90 Minutes in Heaven," 10 Years Later - video (2:54 minute mark) https://youtu.be/3LyZoNlKnMM?t=173 “I was in the spiritual dimension. And this spiritual dimension, this spiritual world, that’s the real world. And this spiritual man that I was seeing and perceiving, that was the real me. And I instantly knew it. The colors are brighter. The thoughts are more intense. The feelings have greater depth. They’re more real. In the spirit world instantly I knew that this is the real world.,,,” – The Near Death Experience of Mickey Robinson – video (testimony starts at 27:45 minute mark) https://youtu.be/voak1RM-pXo?t=1655 Medical Miracles – Dr. Mary Neal’s Near Death Experience – video (More real than real quote at 37:49 minute mark) https://youtu.be/WCNjmWP2JjU?t=2269 Dr. Eben Alexander Says It's Time for Brain Science to Graduate From Kindergarten - 10/24/2013 Excerpt: To take the approach of, "Oh it had to be a hallucination of the brain" is just crazy. The simplistic idea that NDEs (Near Death Experiences) are a trick of a dying brain is similar to taking a piece of cardboard out of a pizza delivery box, rolling it down a hill and then claiming that it's an identical event as rolling a beautiful Ferrari down a hill. They are not the same at all. The problem is the pure materialist scientists can be so closed-minded about it. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ingrid-peschke/near-death-experiences_b_4151093.html
Whereas on a Theistic view of reality, in which the Mind of God is held to be the source for all reality, this 'more real than real' aspect of NDEs is to be expected. But, on the other hand, in the Atheist's materialistic view of reality, how is it even possible for something to become 'even more real that real'? Atheists, in forsaking the necessity of 'mind' to be the foundation for any coherent definition of reality that we may put forth,,,
“No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” Max Planck (1858–1947), the main founder of quantum theory, The Observer, London, January 25, 1931 “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334. “The principal argument against materialism is not that illustrated in the last two sections: that it is incompatible with quantum theory. The principal argument is that thought processes and consciousness are the primary concepts, that our knowledge of the external world is the content of our consciousness and that the consciousness, therefore, cannot be denied. On the contrary, logically, the external world could be denied—though it is not very practical to do so. In the words of Niels Bohr, “The word consciousness, applied to ourselves as well as to others, is indispensable when dealing with the human situation.” In view of all this, one may well wonder how materialism, the doctrine that “life could be explained by sophisticated combinations of physical and chemical laws,” could so long be accepted by the majority of scientists." – Eugene Wigner, Remarks on the Mind-Body Question, pp 167-177.
,,,, in forsaking the necessity of 'mind' to be the foundation for any coherent definition of reality that we may put forth, Atheists simply have no coherent basis for reality that they can put forth that does not collapse into pure fantasy and imagination. As I have stated several times now,
Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris), who has unreliable, (i.e. illusory), beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the reality of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God (Craig, Kreeft). Who, since beauty cannot be grounded within his materialistic worldview, must hold beauty itself to be illusory. Bottom line, nothing is truly real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, beauty, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,, - Darwinian Materialism and/or Methodological Naturalism vs. Reality – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaksmYceRXM
bornagain77_{December 9, 2019
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So, NDE’s can be pleasant or unpleasant. Just like dreams.Ed George_{December 8, 2019
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