Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

What if we DID find irreducibly complex biological features?

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In any debate on Intelligent Design, there is a question I have long wished to see posed to ID opponents: “If we DID discover some biological feature that was irreducibly complex, to your satisfication and to the satisfaction of all reasonable observers, would that justify the design inference?” (Of course, I believe we have found thousands of such features, but never mind that.)

If the answer is yes, we just haven’t found any such thing yet, then all the constantly-repeated philosophical arguments that “ID is not science” immediately fall. If the answer is no, then at least the lay observer will be able to understand what is going on here, that Darwinism is not grounded on empirical evidence but a philosophy.

(Added later)

To make the point more concretely: In my 1985 Springer-Verlag book ( here ) I gave as an example of irreducible complexity (though I didn’t use the term, of course) a carnivorous plant which catches small animals like this: an animal touches a trigger hair, which causes a double-sealed, valve-like door to open, and a water-tight vacuum chamber suddenly expands, sucking the victim into the trap, where it is digested, then the trap is reset for the next victim. Now, any reasonable person would say: this trap couldn’t have evolved through a single random mutation, and none of the parts seem to have any use whatever until all are in place, and until the vacuum chamber is water-tight, and the abilities to digest insects and to reset the trap are functional. A gradual development of this trap through useless stages toward usefulness would be no easier to explain–through natural selection or any other natural mechanism–than a sudden development. (See also the section “The origin of carnivorous plants” in the reference here )

Naturally, any Darwinist can come up with some far-fectched senario whereby the trigger hair had some earlier use, the vacuum chamber had some function before it became water-tight, etc.

My question is: what if we found another example, even more spectacular, so spectacular that every reasonable person would be forced to admit it could not have evolved through small improvements. Then would you consider the design inference justified? If you say yes, then you are admitting that design is a possible, even if currently unjustified, scientific hypothesis. If you say no, then everyone will finally understand that, as W.E.Loennig has stated, today’s evolutionary theory is completely unfalsifiable.

Comments
Joseph: The answer to both questions is it can't, obviously. The formation of each of those occurred under idiosyncratic conditions the absolute details of which we have no way of knowing. If this was the test for science then geology, climatology, criminal science, and a bunch of others would not be considered science. What we can do is find every mechanism that has been observed and not falsified and extrapolate them to the past (something done in all sciences listed above). A Darwinian picture is the best we can come with using this criterion. It would also be fine to say that there are other mechanisms that could contribute to the picture, the ones we have not thought of yet, and hence could not confirm. It would be absurd to extrapolate a specific and unconfirmed mechanism though - certainly not done in any science.DanP
August 31, 2007
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A few people mentioned that there is nothing that would be acceptable to Darwinists to accept ID and that is probably not true. From what I understand you hold that: 1) IC features exist and there is no way that they could have evolved through gradual steps (by definition). 2) Common descent is generally accepted. What this means in the case of the flagellum: 1) The immediate predecessor of a bacteria with one is a bacteria that did not have one (gradualism impossible according to IC). 2) A lot of genetic code was added, substituted, or deleted in this step. It could not have happened through chance mutation. General implications: 1) There are millions of IC features “evolving” separately. 2) We should at some point see one of them pop up somewhere. Hence if we saw an IC feature (or a similar major modification) immediately pop up in a population that previously did not have one (and we were certain that there was no genetic manipulation by humans, seeing as we are getting to the possibility), gradualists would fail to explain it. ID proponents would be right. I am not holding my breath.DanP
August 30, 2007
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Two seemingly easy questions for the anti-IDists: 1) How can the premise that the bacterial flagellum evolved via Darwinian processes, be tested and/ or falsified? 2) How can the premise that the mammalian vision system evolved via Darwinain processes be tested and/ or falsified?Joseph
August 30, 2007
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Kipper: As for they eye, well I guess it depends on what you need as proof. Something, anything, that would show that such a transformation is even possible- eyes from the eyeless. Complex eyes from simpler eyes. But heck you can't even find any scientific data which demonstrates that a population of single-celled organisms can "evolve" into anything but single-celled organisms! Kipper: The flagellum is not that complex, just because you say something is IC does not make it so. It has been demonstrated scientifically that the bacterial flagellum is IC. The structure is IC, the assmbly instructions are IC and the communication is IC. We know that its pieces can be used in other organelles and I could think of ways that signaling pathways could evolve (though I realize I could never prove the exact mech by which it happened, things like EA Ortlund et al (corticoid receptor paper) are small steps towards showing a possible route. Again "evolution" isn't the question. Culled genetic accidents is what is being debated. Did it evolve via culled gentic accidents? How can THAT be tested and/ or falsified? As for your definition, it states that a systems “basic function” is necessarily its “original” one. Why must that be so? The definition is from "No Free Lunch". Why must that be so? You could read the book or perhaps the following: Irreducible Complexity is an Obstacle to Darwinism Even if Parts of a System have other FunctionsJoseph
August 30, 2007
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Predictions for the extremely gullible: from talk origins (see comment 18): Evolution has been the basis of many predictions. For example: Darwin predicted, based on homologies with African apes, that human ancestors arose in Africa. That prediction has been supported by fossil and genetic evidence (Ingman et al. 2000). A few problems- first the theory of evolution didn't predict chimps or humans. There isn't any genetic evidence that demonstrates any mechanism can account for the physiological and anatomical differences between African apes and humans. IOW the premise is not testable. Also seeing ID is OK with Common Descent (ask Behe), that could also be a prediction of ID as it says NOTHING about a mechanism. And in a debate about the mechanism that is important. Theory predicted that organisms in heterogeneous and rapidly changing environments should have higher mutation rates. This has been found in the case of bacteria infecting the lungs of chronic cystic fibrosis patients (Oliver et al. 2000). Wow, minor changes. Perfectly acceptable to YECs. Predator-prey dynamics are altered in predictable ways by evolution of the prey (Yoshida et al. 2003). But that is nothing more than variations within a Kind. Ernst Mayr predicted in 1954 that speciation should be accompanied with faster genetic evolution. A phylogenetic analysis has supported this prediction (Webster et al. 2003). Speciation is nothing but minor changes. Again OK with YEC. Several authors predicted characteristics of the ancestor of craniates. On the basis of a detailed study, they found the fossil Haikouella "fit these predictions closely" (Mallatt and Chen 2003). No way to verify the "prediction" or the mechanism. Evolution predicts that different sets of character data should still give the same phylogenetic trees. This has been confirmed informally myriad times and quantitatively, with different protein sequences, by Penny et al. (1982). Common Design predicts that different sets of character data should still give the same phylogenetic trees. Insect wings evolved from gills, with an intermediate stage of skimming on the water surface. Scientifically undemonstrateable. Since the primitive surface-skimming condition is widespread among stoneflies, J. H. Marden predicted that stoneflies would likely retain other primitive traits, too. This prediction led to the discovery in stoneflies of functional hemocyanin, used for oxygen transport in other arthropods but never before found in insects (Hagner-Holler et al. 2004; Marden 2005). Umm that does not mean insects had an ancestor from the sea or a non-insect ancestor.Joseph
August 30, 2007
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Kipper said: “TRoutMac, simply because, as you said, the flagellum is part of a living system that can reproduce itself. There is no heredity in automobiles.” So because living systems have the additional capability of replication then a comparison made between human IC and biological IC is not valid? I would love to hear a Darwinist tell me what *would*, if found, qualify as IC?!?shaner74
August 30, 2007
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Howdy Kipper, I certainly do have a philosophical and theological bias. So do materialist Darwinists, if I'm not being too redundant. The difference is, to my mind, I don't masquerade my bias as an inconsequential facet of my otherwise sterling objectivity. Not that I'm accusing you; however it seems to be characteristic of atheist Darwinists (Dawkins comes to mind) -- the attitude that their philosophical position is the result of purely rational examination of the evidence rather than a precursor to it, or a filter on how the evidence is allowed to speak. This seems to me the thrust of this thread. If evidence for design could be submitted such that it was beyond reasonable doubt, how would it be received by Darwinists? I might ask the question differently: what evidence would convince [you or any] Darwinists that design is a feature of biological systems? Or more simply, what evidence for a designer would you accept short of a message spelled out in starlight to the effect of, "Hey you, I did this." It seems to me that atheists love to ask for evidence that God exists, then reject any such evidence when it has a theological implication (read Irreducible Complexity). As to opening my mind to the evidence, the more I do it, the more I'm convinced RM+NS has no creative power. I started as an atheist/agnostic who could see no other explanation for the presence of life than Darwinian evolution. Opening my mind has been a great experience. I consider that I have a wonderful destiny, other than my bones turning to dust long before the entire universe suffers heat death. I would actually predict that in the end, ironically, rather than being recognized as some sort of materialistic creative force, all evolution will be found capable of doing is preserving the design of life from premature decay.
Hopefully, the general public will finally start yearn for a true understanding of this world and our place in it and get in on debates like this, I think it would bode well for my side, I assume you think it would bode well for your. It would be nice to see.
Agreed! Thanks for the comments and take care.Apollos
August 30, 2007
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"The problem is that the eye once appeared irreducibly complex. If science is to remain the successful enterprise it has been up until now, then presumably there is no point at which it would be appropriate to stop seeking natural explanations and say ‘God did it’. That has been done in the past, and it hasn’t served religion well." Yet so far all science has been able to come up with is Darwin's fairytale called "the little eyeball that could". Thus saying "evolution did it" is just as useful as saying "God did it".Smidlee
August 30, 2007
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The problem is that the eye once appeared irreducibly complex. If science is to remain the successful enterprise it has been up until now, then presumably there is no point at which it would be appropriate to stop seeking natural explanations and say 'God did it'. That has been done in the past, and it hasn't served religion well. This is no different than in other fields such as criminology. In theory, it could simply be that God wanted a person dead. In practice, we all agree it is appropriate for the police to leave unsolved cases as open files rather than closing them with declarations of presumed divine intervention.James McGrath
August 30, 2007
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Patrick, so your saying that an IC can be the result of a Darwinian pathway, "Direct" or "Indirect", (whatever that means)? If that is the case, seeing as Darwinian evolution is a vastly more simplistic argument than ID, and there is a large amount of accumulated evidence to prove its testable predictions - then my answer is no, if something is IC, that doesn't mean that ID is a given. Not that it would never be justified, it would be if there was some evidence toward it, but not in this case. Charles, funny, I was thinking the same thing, slightly turned around. TRoutMac, simply because, as you said, the flagellum is part of a living system that can reproduce itself. There is no heredity in automobiles. So, though amino acids or proteins or RNA or DNA are not, by themselves, alive, what happens to them within the complete living system effects the next generation in a very direct way without any outside interference (even IDers must accept this, yes?). So, organelles are not like exhaust pipes. Granville Sewell, like Chris, I too never said those things. Design would be justifiable if there was evidence to justify it. Even according to IDers (Paul), IC, if it was found to exist, would not justify design. It is such an extremely complex and intricate process that must occur for design to happen (I think much more complex than evolution, many more things have to occur), I would hope that people require extreme evidence for extreme ideas. Apollos, I think most "Darwinists" do question things, I'm beginning to see that most IDers don't. I think your allowing your personal philosophy to interfere in what should be a purely scientific debate. And the hard evidence is there, you just have to choose to open your mind. Hopefully, the general public will finally start yearn for a true understanding of this world and our place in it and get in on debates like this, I think it would bode well for my side, I assume you think it would bode well for your. It would be nice to see.Kipper
August 30, 2007
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Charles wrote:
"I am nearly convinced, at this point, that all this discussion with Darwinists is pointless. I have only been looking for the last few days at the comments, but it seems to me that people who have the Darwinian faith cannot be swayed from it by anything, and that all this debate amounts to nothing more than mental exercise for its participants."
I think that the public debate represented here has a few distinct advantages. 1) Darwinists witness competent challenges to their ideas by capable thinkers who have allowed themselves to reach conclusions not endorsed by the materialist elite. This opens a door for them to question those conclusions even if they don't admit it here. 2) Those on the sidelines who don't have their entire lives invested in materialist ideas are able to witness competent rebuttals to Darwinist claims, and thus actually be swayed by the evidence. Those in this group are liberated by the knowledge that no, indeed, Darwin wasn't right; and we're not all slaves to a meaningless and random existence. I think many in this group are pleasantly surprised by the lack of monopoly of Darwinian ideas on the fabric of reality. 3) The failure of Darwinists to produce hard evidence in support of their claims (or even to win arguments/debates with pro-ID thinkers) continues to be illuminated by such discussions. The result will most likely be that the standards for Darwinists to actually prove what they claim will continue to rise among the general public, who will increasingly demand that materialists and Darwinists apply the same standard to themselves that they claim to represent: that conclusions about the origin and nature of biological systems be supported with evidence, not speculation and wishful thinking. #2 is my favorite on the list of advantages. The more real education that escapes the gravitational pull of the public school system, the media as represented by the NYT, and academia in general, the better for everybody. IOW, the more people who see the flagellar motor and come to understand how it works, the more they will understand ID and sympathize with its claims; creationist label or no.Apollos
August 30, 2007
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TroutMac:"But the flagellum, or flagellar motor, itself is not any more ‘living’ than a mousetrap." What is alive then?bill Me
August 30, 2007
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My apologies, Chris Hyland, for misunderstanding your comments, then.Granville Sewell
August 30, 2007
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Chris Hyland wrote: "If life was designed then certainly it may be possible to detect scientifically." Oh, well that's cool. Did you have any particular methods in mind? How might you be able to detect design in living things scientifically? Thank you.TRoutMac
August 30, 2007
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"Kipper and Chris Hyland seem to be giving the honest answer that most scientists today would give, if pressed: “no, it doesn’t matter what we find in the living world, the design inference would never be justified.” "no conceivable evidence could ever shake these people from their faith" I didn't say either of those things. "admit that design is a possible (even if currently unjustified) scientific conclusion" If life was designed then certainly it may be possible to detect scientifically. That wasn't the original question though.Chris Hyland
August 30, 2007
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Kipper wrote: "Found it on some web page, if you don’t like it please give some other one" Well, it's important that we get the definition right, because the ID critics always insist on using their OWN definition, and not one that ID advocates use. Here's a correct definition: "A single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function of the system, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning." (Darwin's Black Box, 39) Now that we've defined the term properly, do you still stand by the following comment? "My answer would have to be yes, seeing as IC has, in its definition, a designer" Kipper wrote: "Sure, there are things designed by humans that could be said to be IC (based on Joseph’s def). Though, they are not living, so they have no bearing in the discussion. Well, excuse me Kipper, but do you realize that a bacterial flagellum, itself, is not "alive"? It's a machine, essentially no different from a mousetrap. Okay, so it's a (very small) part of a living organism, and a mousetrap is not, I'll grant you that. But the flagellum, or flagellar motor, itself is not any more 'living' than a mousetrap. It's made of certain select parts, which are made of proteins, which are made from amino acids, but proteins and amino acids ALSO are themselves no more "alive" than the wood and metal in the parts of a mousetrap. So why is it that we cannot make comparisons between molecular machines and the machines that humans design?TRoutMac
August 30, 2007
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I am nearly convinced, at this point, that all this discussion with Darwinists is pointless. I have only been looking for the last few days at the comments, but it seems to me that people who have the Darwinian faith cannot be swayed from it by anything, and that all this debate amounts to nothing more than mental excercise for its participants. I am not trying to deride UD, all I'm saying is that, as stated in the first post of the mysterious Oracle of Outrage ( http://outrageoracle.blogspot.com ), you can't argue with "experts". Ever. It's futile. They wrap themselves in an armor of degrees, technical papers, and suppositions that no rational weapon can penetrate. Our best hope, at this point, is to sway the public in a strong enough fashion that the Darwinists are drummed out of their position as the dominant paradigm in academia. For, most, no more than Paley's argument (which I still find most compelling, so I'm not encouraging deception), would be enough. We have the advantage that ID lends itself to precise analogy and simple description, while the attempts for justifications of Darwinism are either silly just-so stories or mounds of steaming expertese (the language of "experts"). Even then, many will not see the light, and will dwindle away, bitter, indignant, and self-righteous until the end, an interesting footnote in the history of the world.Charles Foljambe
August 30, 2007
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kipper, The potential existence of an Indirect Darwinian pathway in configuration space in no way invalidates the fact that the flagellum IS Irreducibly Complex. Now if a workable DIRECT Darwinian pathway for the flagellum were to be found that'd be another story. Those who focus their research on Indirect Darwinian pathways implicitly affirm that it is indeed IC. After all, if it wasn't IC then why not simply point out the Direct Darwinian pathway? Just because something is IC does NOT mean that unguided Darwinian processes potentially could have evolved something Indirectly and that is exactly what Darwinists claim is the case. Denying that the flagellum is not IC at all just makes you appear uneducated in regards to the science involved. But considering that you reference TalkOrigins I can understand your confusion since that website leads many astray through its distortions.Patrick
August 30, 2007
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Ok, here goes (though I do have to eat dinner sometime) TRoutMac: 1. Found it on some web page, if you don't like it please give some other one (though there are now a couple below, I'll get to them) 2. Sure, there are things designed by humans that could be said to be IC (based on Joseph's def). Though, they are not living, so they have no bearing in the discussion. Joseph: Predictions:here is a short list I found http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA210.html (sorry, don't know how to do the link thing) As for they eye, well I guess it depends on what you need as proof. If your looking for someone in a lab to force an eye to evolve in a species that as of now has none, then your right (though I suspect that person would be called a designer anyway plus I suspect it would take many thousands of generations and you would need a pretty big grant to do this) however, there is a much physiological evidence in current species with different light sensing organs to guess at a pattern that could have occurred (all we can do) without reaching to the much more complex idea of ID. The flagellum is not that complex, just because you say something is IC does not make it so. You have to show it. We know that its pieces can be used in other organelles and I could think of ways that signaling pathways could evolve (though I realize I could never prove the exact mech by which it happened, things like EA Ortlund et al (corticoid receptor paper) are small steps towards showing a possible route. As for your definition, it states that a systems "basic function" is necessarily its "original" one. Why must that be so? And if this isn't so, why couldn't it have evolved that way? Sorry, have to go now, to be continuedKipper
August 30, 2007
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Kipper and Chris Hyland seem to be giving the honest answer that most scientists today would give, if pressed: "no, it doesn't matter what we find in the living world, the design inference would never be justified." Fine, but the layman has been led to believe that most scientists believe in Darwinism because the empirical evidence has led them to this reasonable scientific alternative to the obvious explanation (design); they would be astonished to know that no conceivable evidence could ever shake these people from their faith. And the point of my question is, it forces them to either admit that design is a possible (even if currently unjustified) scientific conclusion, or else admit that their theory is unfalsifiable (as Loennig states), and thus not science.Granville Sewell
August 30, 2007
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Chris Hyland wrote: "On the other hand if in this case it means a system that has somehow been proven not to have evolved by any known evolutionary mechanism, then I would have to say that we didn’t know how the system was created." Is it just me, or does the last portion of this statement sound like a "science stopper." You seem to be saying that if we can't account for irreducibly complex systems in biology by reference to random mutation and natural selection, a response of "Then I don't know how it came about" is preferred over a hypothesis which invokes a designer. Interesting.TRoutMac
August 30, 2007
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then I would have to say that we didn’t know how the system was created.
And that's where the various ID-compatible hypotheses (frontloading, etc) would step in.Patrick
August 30, 2007
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“If we DID discover some biological feature that was irreducibly complex, to your satisfication and to the satisfaction of all reasonable observers, would that justify the design inference?” The definitions I am aware of are variations of "a system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning". So I would agree that we have found many examples but I don't think this warrants a design inference. On the other hand if in this case it means a system that has somehow been proven not to have evolved by any known evolutionary mechanism, then I would have to say that we didn't know how the system was created.Chris Hyland
August 30, 2007
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Kipper You have to create testable predictions, get to the bench, do the work, see the results, modify your theory, etc. Just what predictions do you think the theory of evolution makes? And what science demonstrates that the physiological and anatomical differences observed between chimps and humans can be accounted for via culled genetic accidents? IC does not state that the system in question could not have evolved. IC questions the mechanism- designed to evolve vs. evolved via culled hgenetic accidents. BTW no one has demonstrated that an eye, any eye, can "evolve" in a population of organisms that never had one. And that is regardless of any mechanism. The bacterial flagellum- not only is it IC but so are its assembly instructions. And even once you have it assembled you still need to communicate with it- more IC. The only way around IC is to ignore it. As for defining IC try the following: IC- A system performing a given basic function is irreducibly complex if it includes a set of well-matched, mutually interacting, non-arbitrarily individuated parts such that each part in the set is indispensable to maintaining the system’s basic, and therefore original, function. The set of these indispensable parts is known as the irreducible core of the system. Page 285 NFL Numerous and Diverse Parts If the irreducible core of an IC system consists of one or only a few parts, there may be no insuperable obstacle to the Darwinian mechanism explaining how that system arose in one fell swoop. But as the number of indispensable well-fitted, mutually interacting,, non-arbitrarily individuated parts increases in number & diversity, there is no possibility of the Darwinian mechanism achieving that system in one fell swoop. Page 287 Minimal Complexity and Function Given an IC system with numerous & diverse parts in its core, the Darwinian mechanism must produce it gradually. But if the system needs to operate at a certain minimal level of function before it can be of any use to the organism & if to achieve that level of function it requires a certain minimal level of complexity already possessed by the irreducible core, the Darwinian mechanism has no functional intermediates to exploit. Page 287Joseph
August 30, 2007
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Kipper: A couple of questions: 1. I'm curious where you came across the definition you used there of irreducible complexity… at least that's what I understood you to be doing: posting at least part of a definition of IC to try to show that it necessarily includes a designer. If that's not what you meant, I apologize for my misunderstanding. 2. Do you believe that there are machines in existence, designed by humans, that are irreducibly complex? In other words, do you believe that irreducible complexity is a real "quality" that can be found SOMEWHERE?TRoutMac
August 30, 2007
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If the answer is no, then at least the lay observer will be able to understand what is going on here, that Darwinism is not grounded on empirical evidence but a philosophy. This is a very helpful observation.ched
August 30, 2007
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My answer would have to be yes, seeing as IC has, in its definition, a designer: "certain biological systems are too complex to have evolved from simpler, or "less complete" predecessors, and are at the same time too complex to have arisen naturally through chance mutations" If they couldn't have evolved from simpler things, and couldn't have occurred as they are through a natural process, in my thinking all that is left is a designer (please let me know if there is something else). (And no, of course, I believe we have never found such features, but never mind that.) However, I don't see how it follows that "all the constantly-repeated philosophical arguments that “ID is not science” immediately fall". In order to be science, you have to do science. You have to create testable predictions, get to the bench, do the work, see the results, modify your theory, etc. You can't pick a system a random and state it is IC without some evidence that it is IC (see Behe vs the eye).Kipper
August 30, 2007
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TRoutMac: I think that the mousetrap example was meant to illustrate that some things that appear to be IC can still be built up step-by-step without ever being useless. As far as I know, there is nobody on that side of the argument who thinks that there is no such thing as irreducible complexity.Reed Orak
August 30, 2007
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The "answer" of course, is "No, mother nature, father time, the blind watchmaker and imagination can account for all we observe. Look at lighning and thunder. Once thought to be the work of the gods was just mother nature." Also Intelligent Design, for all intents and purposes, has been (arbitrarily) defined out of science. Meaning even if it is true it could never be considered "science". And THAT is one contradiction no one should live with as science only cares about reality, ie the truth.Joseph
August 30, 2007
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It strikes me that we may have already seen that at least SOME ID critics won't even allow that there IS such a thing as "irreducible complexity" in ANY realm. After all, John McDonald's hilarious IC 'rebuttal' involving mousetraps made from fewer than five parts is all about denying that even a mousetrap is irreducibly complex. Granted, they reach this conclusion based on a deliberate misunderstanding and distortion of the definition of IC. But regardless, McDonald at least, appears to be hell-bent on denying that even a simple manmade device, obviously the product of intelligent design, is irreducibly complex. I would suggest that Granville's excellent test question might be flawed only in that guys like John McDonald might attempt to evade it by claiming, in essence, that there's no such thing as Irreducible Complexity. It's not possible to win a rational, reasonable argument with irrational, unreasonable people. They'll violate any standard of decency, fairness and rational discourse to prevent themselves from being defeated.TRoutMac
August 30, 2007
August
08
Aug
30
30
2007
01:34 PM
1
01
34
PM
PDT
1 2 3

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