What Really Matters

_{Cornelius Hunter
January 29, 2013

Intelligent Design

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Intelligent Design}

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I believe there are big problems with evolution. But I could be wrong. Or perhaps I’m right but some form of evolution is nonetheless true. Evolutionists, on the other hand, are much more certain and there is a never-ending drum roll of high truth claims from their camp. These truth claims are unwarranted and it is them, rather than the theory itself, that are the problem. So I’m not so much concerned about the theory itself as I am about the certainty with which it is presented. Read more

Comments

Folks: This is what I was warning about in comment no 32, a death spiral down and away from the proper focal issue in the thread. I suggest a time out to address the proper focal issue, and that if you want to enter into debates on Islam, a much better forum would be in the context of this site at a forum that discusses these matters. And JM, pardon, but you are not dealing with naifs. Before you try to dismiss the Nicene Creed I suggest you examine what was already linked in 32 above, in light of the general warrant in the same site that is onward linked. (Just note, the Creed is made up in the main part from the earliest historical reference to Christ and his status as Messiah, 1 Cor 15:1 - 11, dating to AD 55 and recording the C1 church's official testimony and main witnesses [about 20 being specifically identifiable], dating to 35 - 38 AD. To this, a Biblically based prefix is attached, and a similarly based suffix.) Going beyond, I found it sadly astonishing to see your blatantly out of context misreading of say Heb, which begins with remarks like this . . . which BTW are directly taken up in the Nicene Creed:
. . . and has as main theme, the Atoning work of the said Christ.kairosfocus_{January 31, 2013
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I would like to conclude for tonight and remember in the meantime that: There is no object worthy of worship but Allah (The God) Semitic name including the ARAMAIC , not Greek or Latin for God that Jesus pbuh used ) And that Muhammad saws is His servant and Final Messenger Ciao for now oh!JoeMorreale1187_{January 31, 2013
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is that the government affiliated NIST That has been caught Lying and contradicting itself along with Popular Mechanics which have been thoroughly exposed and devastatingly refuted by the likes of Richard Gage at AE9/11Truth and David Ray Griffin that you are talking about? Wikipedia ? The same Wikipedia that deliberately distorts and misrepresents Intelligent Design? Mate , you are seriously wasting my time . Whether you like it or it is convenient you or not academic and intellectual honesty and objectivity demands that you change your mentality.JoeMorreale1187_{January 31, 2013
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Unscientific??? The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) and the technology magazine Popular Mechanics have investigated and rejected the claims made by 9/11 conspiracy theories.[14][15] The civil engineering community accepts that the impacts of jet aircraft at high speeds in combination with subsequent fires, not controlled demolition, led to the collapse of the Twin Towers.[16] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theoriesbornagain77_{January 31, 2013
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Btw just before I conclude on this particular thread I would like to point out as further and conclusive proof that you are guided in your opinions by convenience and not the truth by the example of you not accepting that 9/11 was an inside job. To hold this view clearly means you having to be unscientific.JoeMorreale1187_{January 31, 2013
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So basically Joe, you have no archeological evidence to support the early years of Islam (though you denied it) You have no positive Near Death Experiences to point to in the Muslim culture. (You denied they matter). You said that Jesus did not really die on the cross (which is laughable, even Christ's enemies admitted that he died and the tomb was empty and the Shroud testifies that he had indeed died before his resurrection). Then when confronted with clear evidence of violence by Muslims (for instance the Trade Center) you deny Muslims did it and say I'm a joker? (denialism and Ad hominem). You then try to deflect the inherent violence within Islam by saying that Jesus incited violence, (which is just plain false) ,,, Then you call me ignorant, etc... Save for the topic under discussion Joe, this conversation has gone pretty much like the hundreds upon hundreds of debates I've had with atheists on the internet.bornagain77_{January 31, 2013
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My point that you conveniently lap up the bad examples of Muslims that the media like to portray . Anyway you are clearly ignorant , wilfully ignorant I must add so good luck to you. You can take the horse to the water but......JoeMorreale1187_{January 31, 2013
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You are a clearcut joker . The verse is describing letting the non-Muslims listen to the Quran and NOT COMPELLING them to accept Islam. They are free to go and they were as this verse was describing a battle at that time . Btw so Muslims are not allowed to take non Muslims for friends but are allowed to marry Jews and Christians though!!JoeMorreale1187_{January 31, 2013
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Joe "Your latest comment has just proved my point!" What point? That the guy had his hand amputated for daring to speak out against Islam? That's the reality of Islam Joe. Look closely at the picture Joe, his hand is GONE because of Islamic law! That's your religion which you claim I misunderstand.bornagain77_{January 31, 2013
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I am not wasting anymore more time with you regarding this subject and I am going to try to resist the temptation to respond to your ignorance, distortions and provocations.JoeMorreale1187_{January 31, 2013
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"Those verses I mentioned regarding Jesus are in the NT which shows that when necessary taking arms is legitimate and I am sure you are aware of them and there is no getting away from them ." Really? The verses seem to slip my mind right now,,, Can you please help me and cite the exact verses where Jesus says it is OK to take up arms against your enemy and kill him? As to: ,GIVE HIM PROTECTION UNTIL HE LISTENS TO THE WORD OF ALLAH Joe, if he 'listens to the words of Allah' he is OK???, but what if he, like me, continues to think that Islam is a false and violent religion and refuses to listen? Is it OK for a Muslim to kill them then??? I really want to get the details down so I don't misinterpret you! :)bornagain77_{January 31, 2013
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Your latest comment has just proved my point!JoeMorreale1187_{January 31, 2013
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Those verses I mentioned regarding Jesus are in the NT which shows that when necessary taking arms is legitimate and I am sure you are aware of them and there is no getting away from them . Regarding 9:5 once again totally divorced from its context. EXCEPT THOSE OF THE POLYTHEISTS WITH WHOM YOU HAVE A TREATY, AND THEY WERE NIT DEFICIENT IN FULFILLING THE TREATY WITH YOU, AND DID NOT BACK ANY ONE AGAINST YOU. SO FULFILL THE TREATY WITH THEM UO TO THEIR TERM . Then verse 5 kicks in! Then verse 6 says SURELY ALLAH MOST FORGIVING, MERCIFUL .AND IF ANYONE OF THE POLYTHEISTS SEEK YOUR PROTECTION ,GIVE HIM PROTECTION UNTILL HE LISTENS TO THE WORD OF ALLAH , THEN LET HIM REACH HUS PLACE OF SAFETY ; THAT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE A PEOPLE WHO DO NOT KNOW Ignorance is one thing but you are making it obvious that you are conveniently clinging to outdated images of Islam which the media like to portray. This is intellectual dishonesty on your part and I am not going to clear up anymore verses for. Read the book/s and educate yourself on IslamJoeMorreale1187_{January 31, 2013
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Joe, I wonder if the Muslims that amputated this guy's hand need to read the book you referenced explaining that the Koran does not incite violence? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1885052.stmbornagain77_{January 31, 2013
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HMMM Joe, so I just misunderstand the context when the Koran states something like this: [9.5] When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. Joe you claim Jesus incites 'physical' violence and murder??? REALLY??? Actually Joe it is quite the opposite, Jesus said that if you even hate your brother you have already committed murder! Many verses could be cited supporting that position, but to give you a clue as to what kind of 'warfare' Jesus is talking about: John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."bornagain77_{January 31, 2013
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I will give you an example started with the first verse which STARTS at 190: FIGHT IN THE CAUSE OF ALLAH THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU BUT DO NOT TRANSGRESS LIMITS; FOR ALLAH LOVETH NOT THE TRANGRESSORS....... Please do yourself a favour and buy on kindle the 'Islam: Silencing the Critics' book and go to the contents where it says The 'violent' verses in the Quran that deals with every single verse that you have quoted and more.JoeMorreale1187_{January 31, 2013
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And I did not come here claiming superiority for Islam. in fact I have even made positive comments about Christian contribution to science and said we share a common enemy in secular and atheistic ideologies . It was you that tried to make out that you can only come right by God via the Christian perspective on sin etc etc.....JoeMorreale1187_{January 31, 2013
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EVERY single verse you have mentioned comes with a context leading to the verse and/or after which you have due to ignorance or convenience left out . And that is why I have recommended several books to you that deal with every single one of them. If you are honest you will make an effort to read them. Now do you really want me to get started with the Old Testament??? Even Jesus according to the New Testament says that he did not come to bring peace but division and spoke about taking arms like swords when necessary . When he rode into Jerusalem again according to the NT he says that those who do not obey him should be brought to him and be slayed!!JoeMorreale1187_{January 31, 2013
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Now, Now, Joe, this thread is dedicated to Christianity and you are the one coming on here claiming Islam to be superior, don't back out now that it's getting juicy. So 911 was an inside job??? really??? Was the holocaust real or not??? You also claim that Islam does not incite violence against Christians and Jews? Really Joe???? Okie Dokie Joe let's go through the particular Koran verses and you tell me which ones are not in the Koran: 1) [2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. 2) [3:28] Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming. 3) [3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust. 4) [4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. 5) [4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Satan; surely the strategy of the Satan is weak. 6) [5.51] O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people 7) [8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. 8) [8.69] Eat then of the lawful and good (things) which you have acquired in war, and be careful of your duty to Allah; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 9) [9.5] When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. 10) [9.5] When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. 11) [9.14] Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people. 12) [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah (Jews and Christians), nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax (jizya) in acknowledgment of (Islamic) superiority and they are in a state of subjection. 13) [9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! 14) [9.33] He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse. 15) [9.123] O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). 16) [22.39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them. 17) [33.61] Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering. 18) [47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners 19) [48.28] He it is Who sent His Apostle with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness. 20) [48.29] Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. 21) [61.9] He it is Who sent His Apostle with the guidance and the true religion, that He may make it overcome the religions, all of them, though the polytheists may be averse. 22) [62.6] O ye who are Jews! If ye claim that ye are favoured of Allah to the exclusion of all mankind, and then long for death (as believers do) if ye are truthful. Dear Brother and Sisters, did you know that there are 123 verses in the Quran concerning fighting and killing for the cause of Allah? Here are but a few passages are sent herewith for your kind information:- 1) Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim’s “inveterate enemies” (Sura 4:101). Muslims are to “arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere” (Sura 9:5) for them. They are to “seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly” (Sura 4:90). “Fight them until Islam reigns supreme” (Sura 2:193). “Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers” (Sura 8:12). 2) If a Muslim does not go to war, Allah will kill him (Sura 9:39). He is to be told, “the heat of war is fierce, but more fierce is the heat of Hell-fire” (Sura 9:81). 3) They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33) 4) Muslims are to be “ruthless to unbelievers” (Sura 48:29). 5) Muslims are encouraged to be wholly occupied (Sura 2:273) with fighting for Allah’s cause. 6) Muslims are encouraged to be wholly occupied (Sura 2:273) with fighting for Allah’s cause. 7) I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12) 8) Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5) 9) Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57) 10) Anyone who fights against Allah or renounces Islam in favor of another religion shall be “put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off alternative sides” (Sura 5:34). 11) Allah loves those who “fight for his cause” (Sura 61:3). 12) A Muslim should “enjoy the good things” he has gained by fighting (Sura 8:69). 13) Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them (Sura 9:123). 14) A Muslim can kill any person he wishes if it be a “just cause” (Sura 6:152). 15) Allah will give “a far richer recompense to those who fight for him” (Sura 4:96). 16) A Muslim must “fight for the cause of Allah with the devotion due to him” (Sura 22:78) 17) Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. (Koran 69:30-37) Read more: Difference Between Islam and Christianity | Difference Between | Islam vs Christianity http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-islam-and-christianity/#ixzz2JaPpc28Ibornagain77_{January 31, 2013
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I didn't join these threads to incur hostility am engage in comparative religious debates which should be and are best done elsewhere . I joined for the reason that this is an excellent website that exposes and refutes Neo Darwinian Evolution and makes a compelling and in my opinion conclusive case for Intelligent Design. So as of now I will not respond to any comparative religious comments even if provoked. Whoever wants to debate me can do so on yusufsalahuhdin@googlemail.comJoeMorreale1187_{January 31, 2013
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Stephen B: what I will say about abrogation is that according to the Bible or the Christians interpretation of it is that virtually the whole of the New Testament due to Paul and not Jesus who clearly said He came to uphold and fulfil the Law abrogated the Old Testament!JoeMorreale1187_{January 31, 2013
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Islam the untold story has been exposed for its fallacy on article and video which you can catch on Hamza Tzortzis and IERA website. They even claim that Mecca didn't exist at the time of Prophet Muhammad saws!! I don't know if its genuine ignorance or convenience on your part but regarding the Quran and violence I recommend you read 'The Lies about Muhammad: How you were deceived into Islamaphobia ' by Mustafa Zayed and 'Islam:Silencing the critics' for a page for page refutation of the misconceptions, distortions and outright lies regarding Islam. I think you should abandon getting your information from CNN, Fox News , Sky and the BBC. The Quran's authenticity in doubt as you claim but the Bible is not? Are you serious??? I have already said that religious experiences real or not happen to all types religious and non and our subjective and not concrete proof for truth claims. I'm an Italian and ex Roman Catholic Sadly I notice that many Christians go outside scripture to 'prove' their beliefs and claims and appeal to subjective experiencess and emotional arguments. This is hardly intellectual or scientific. Speaking about science and the scientific method: Has not the ewes that 9/11 was an inside job reached you yet?JoeMorreale1187_{January 31, 2013
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Joe Morreale1187, what is your position on the Islamic doctrine of "abrogation," (if two moral directives are in conflict, the one written later cancels out the one written earlier).StephenB_{January 31, 2013
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Here is a post listing many verses from the Koran that incite violence and murder against non-believers in general and against Christians and Jews in particular: http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-islam-and-christianity/comment-page-1/#comment-159800 As a sidelight to this, it is interesting to note that unlike Christianity (and Judaism) which each have stunning archeological confirmation backing up the historicity of each, the accuracy of the historicity of Islam, particularly its origin as told in the Koran, is in severe doubt when it comes to archeological confirmation. The following video reveals the poverty of archeological evidence backing up Islam's historicity: Islam, the untold story - video http://apostates.weebly.com/islam-the-untold-story.htmlbornagain77_{January 31, 2013
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Joe as to this particular comment of yours:
I believe in near death experiences but unless You are a genuine Martyr or Prophet /Messenger of God nobody is shown Paradise until the Day of judgement
So the Muslims, that slammed those airplanes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, were they martyrs to you or did they commit egregious evil? i.e. Are they in paradise now because of what they did in your belief system?bornagain77_{January 31, 2013
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KF: The Nicene Creed? Sorry but do you really want to be going there ?JoeMorreale1187_{January 31, 2013
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Although I am a fan of W Lane Craig in his debates against atheism I don't agree with you that he refutes Jamal Badawi. I definitely don't think he beats Shabir Ally in his debates with him either in my opinion. As regards the crucifixion it is not at all as solid as many think. Matthew 10:24 ' A disciple (Paul had never met Jesus so was not even that,). Is not above his teacher , nor a servant above his master" (1) Blood sacrifice is not needed. Hosea 6:6, Matthew 9:13 and 12:7 (2) Sign of Jonah Matthew 12: 38-40 Jonah's miracle was that he was expected to die but lived . Jesus being saved from the cross also! Jesus also declared this Sign as the 'only' above all the other miracles that he had shown. (4) the word risen is consistently used instead of Resurection which is different. Risen from the dead is never from the lips of Jesus himself (5) The Turin Shroud: ' The Jesus Conspiracy' by Holger Kersten and Elmar shows that whoever was wrapped in the shroud did not die, and that the organised Church has made extensive effort to including falsifying carbon dating tests ) to discredit the authenticity of the shroud and hence perhaps the reason to their continul rejection to independent testing. One has to wonder why? (6) Deuteronomy 22:23 " .. He who is hanged ( crucified) is accursed of God. Jesus cursed? I don't think so. (7) HEBREWS 5:7 "In the days of his flesh , Jesus offered up prayers and SUPPLICATIONS , with loud cries and tears, to the one who was able to SAVE FROM DEATH, and he was HEARD because of his reverent submission. heard meaning his prayers were ANSWERED as at no time is God deaf is he? (8) Judas the traitor and this would be more logical and just could be the one that was placed on the cross instead because the Bible writers don't seem to be sure of his whereabouts or ending and death as Matthew 27:5 and Acts 1:18 contradict each other (9) There are many contradictions regarding before and the aftermath of the alleged crucifixion at the tomb scene . (10) Many early Christian groups like the Corinthians , Basilidians , Paulinians and the Carpocrations. Paul who claimed to have seen and receiving revelation from the risen Christ was in opposition to Jesus' disciples particularly his brother James. From a choice between Jesus , his closest disciples including family members and Paul it is obvious who one should choose.....JoeMorreale1187_{January 31, 2013
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JM: Pardon, with all due respect, I would suggest hesitating before dismissing another participant here as in effect a fraud; the direct implication of your words above. We do not need to go down that road. FYI, I have taken time to look at PJ's extended testimony, and I rather doubt that he is inclined to fabricate stories. FYFI, I think you will find that we also know a bit on the difference between the Jesus of the NT and the early reports as discussed in a recent UD thread, and the Prophet Isa including the eschatological forms joined to Mahdi, the Gharqad tree hadith and the hadith of the black flag army used by Islamists, as well. As in, we know full well that Christians who take something like the Nicene Creed seriously and understand Jesus in these terms -- which are provably pretty directly derived from the NT (which is authentically a C1 collection tracing in many respects to eyewitness testimony) -- would be viewed by many Muslims as guilty of Shirk, with certain Quranic texts being pretty direct support for that. In addition, someone who has been influenced by the sort of Islamic polemics emanating from several well known and widely publicised individuals such as Deedat, could very well summarise his view on the Jesus Christians believe in in the terms described. Finally, there is a fairly widespread movement of now former Muslims who have had revelatory dreams in which Jesus has appeared to them and has provided guidance through the gospel. Indeed, joined with the likes of Fr Boutros' work, there is a definite and strong movement across the ME and Africa, of Muslims becoming Christians. Cf. collection of testimonies here. So, please, let us keep this on balance. KFkairosfocus_{January 31, 2013
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In the Christian West you also have many more Christians who are nominal and not practicing beyond celebrating Christmas and Easter and few other festivals . I believe in near death experiences but unless You are a genuine Martyr or Prophet /Messenger of God nobody is shown Paradise until the Day of judgement . So what these people are experiencing is a 'taste' of the Unseen realm of the Hereafter. As to to why very few Muslims according to you experience NDExperiences the answer in my opinion is that it is the West that atheism, skepticism, materialism etc etc reigns supreme so God in His Mercy helps those people out. No such doubts in the Hereafter exists amongst Muslims so as a result we don't reassurances !JoeMorreale1187_{January 31, 2013
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Hi Joe, I appreciate what you are saying, in reagrds to how you regard Jesus, but I'm fairly positive that is what he said. I have thought about this myself many times, although on the few occsaions i have seen him since I have not mentioned it, but from what i could make out in our conversation that evening, not all Muslims regard Christ in a postive manner. Perhaps there are those, like my old school friend, who grow up with a hatred for Him. I really don't know? What I do know is that not long after he told me of his expereince he left a group who were meeting in a room at the back of an Indian restaurant becuase he no longer felt comfortable with what they preached. What I have told you is true.PeterJ_{January 31, 2013
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