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Why do evolutionary psychologists exist?

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A reader wrote to me to say,

I greatly enjoy your writing and I would like to ask your opinion about something I really find puzzling.

Well, once someone has decided to praise my writing, how can I resist responding? Anyway, this person goes on to say,

My question concerns the so-called agent detection device” and the affirmation that it disproves God’s existence beyond any reasonable doubt.

Sounds like a scam to me, but then I have shut the door on the feet of so many people selling winter home heating plans that I may have an innate door-shutting mechanism that “evolutionary psychology” can explain … (Like, it would never have anything at all to do with suspicion that the new plan would end up sticking me with more expenses than the present one – or anything else that suggests that the human mind is real, right?)

According to many experimental studies, human beings seem to have an innate mechanism enabling them to identify the presence of an agent under some circumstances. ( if one is in a deep wood, the shuffling of trees and bushes and a sudden silence would lead one to believe some creature is present).

Well, all I can say is, when that happens to me in the deep woods, I institute my wilderness survival plan immediately.

Admittedly, the last time that happened to me, wandering down a trail in Muskoka, the creature I nearly collided with was a fox that had apparently missed his rabbit. So the fox ran off. But what if it had been a bear who had missed his deer? …

Anyway, my correspondent went on to explain,

However, this mechanism can easily fool us. What if we are, for instance, alone in an old house and hear some noise. We may be inclined to assume, too easily, that someone or something must be there, even if other explanations (like wind) would be much more likely.

Okay, not me. I’ve never had any trouble detecting the difference between, say, a fox and a ghost.

Not that I believe in ghosts. I figure, either a spirit is a holy soul or it is not. If it is a holy soul, I need not worry. And if it is not a holy soul, it would never approach a baptized and confirmed Christian like me.

True, during high summer, the floorboards of old houses can start to creak. It can sound like someone is walking there, due to the wood’s adjustment to the temperature difference between day and night. I learned that as a small child.

(This was especially useful information for us girls because we were often yakking far into the night when we should have been asleep. … So it was important for us to know whether an adult was sneaking in to check on us, as opposed to natural night noise that we could ignore.)

My correspondent advises me that evolutionary psychologists think that this “agent detection” mechanism is hyperactive and therefore completely unreliable.

That doesn’t sound right to me. (Admittedly, not much about “evolutionary psychology” – a discipline without a subject – sounds right to me. But this “agent detection” stuff sounds especially unright.)

I wrote back and said, essentially,

I am nearly 60 years old, and have often faced real danger – and have never found the mechanism unreliable at all.

In every situation in which I suspected real danger, I was right to be concerned.

Yes, false alarms are common, but people learn to ignore them after a while.

If the mechanism is so unreliable, why am I still here? Why are you? Why is anyone?

Re God: I never thought God existed on those terms! I assumed it was because of the majesty and fine tuning of the universe and the moral law, and reason and revelation.

However, I have never uncovered a really good reason for why evolutionary psychologists exist, apart from taxpayer-funded universities. But if someone comes up with one, please let me know.

Comments
Allen, The following book is where I garnered much of my information about neurons: “Fundamentals of Anatomy and Physiology” Martini, 5th edition
Dr Frederic (Ric) Martini received his PhD from Cornell University in comparative and functional anatomy.
Joseph
May 6, 2009
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Clive:
Wherever there is history, there is evolution, is false.
A little bit O' cheese paring, there. Of course you understood I meant a "natural history," and that by "natural history" I intended the evolutionary history of our physical bodies that I briefly summarized above. That said, if I understand you correctly, you don't believe that human beings have a natural evolutionary history (spanning ~60,000 centuries, as intended above) that culminated in current human phenotypes - our bodies, bipedality, large brains, and so forth. It follows for me that there is no point in your debating the specific merits (or lack thereof) of "evolutionary psychology." No one adduces the inferential and tentative conclusions of EP as dispositive evidence for human evolution itself - rather, the question of EP arises (I think inevitably) from the general picture of human evolution established to date. Both the broad picture and many specific elements of hominid evolutionary history have a very secure empirical foundation (in paleontology and physical anthropology, genetics, etc.) that is vastly more detailed than the more indirect inferences of EP. If you find yourself able to reject that, then your rejection of EP follows as a matter of simple logic, not in response to problems with specific arguments or evidence vis EP specifically. (It occurs to me that you may be asserting that our bodies and brains have the natural evolutionary history to which I refer, but our "minds" do not - a belief that motivates your mind-body dualism. I don't think that is the case, but if it is please clarify.)Diffaxial
May 6, 2009
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Diffaxial ----"So, what say you Clive? Do human beings have a natural history? If you accept that, then something like an evolution of human psychology follows - even if the details prove beyond reconstruction. If you reject that, then there is no point debating the merits of theory regarding a particular perspective on that history, namely the history of the human cognitive and psychological endowment." Yes, I reject that "something like an evolutionary history follows", for that, itself, doesn't follow from the fact of having a history. Wherever there is history, there is evolution, is false. There is no evolution of thinking or of the mind. There is absolutely no evidence that man's capacity to learn or understand has in any way changed throughout history.Clive Hayden
May 5, 2009
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Well, we're a hundred posts in, and still no evidence from Ms. O'Leary that Pascal Boyer (or anyone in the field of evolutionary psycholgy, for that matter) has asserted that humans have an agent detection device that “disproves God’s existence beyond any reasonable doubt” and is “completely unreliable.” In fact, it appears clear that no one in that field makes such claims. Are these her journalistic standards? Just making assertions about other peoples' views without any support? (Note, I'm not talking about the truth-value of the claims. My point is that no one makes those claims. Ms. O'Leary's post sets up an oil-soaked strawman that no one advocates.)Ludwig
May 5, 2009
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One more thing- Most of my info on neurons comes from my studying kinesiology at a local university. The neuro-muscular system is very important to that field. Now if these college textbooks are wrong then it is a sure bet that I will also be wrong. However I doubt that is the case. But you can go on accusing me because that appears to be all you have.Joseph
May 5, 2009
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BTW Allen, the evolutionary histories are assumed. I say that because there isn't any scientific data which demonstrates the transformations required are even possible. A duplicated gene requires a new binding site. It also requires a host of other meta-information- promoter, enhancer, repressor- as well as the instructions on where the new protein will go. All of that has to slid in to the existing combinatorial logic. Dr Lee Spetner wrote a book titled "Not BY Chance". You should read it because ten you may understand what is being debated.Joseph
May 5, 2009
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Allen, If my comment contains errors than so do many alleged experts of biology. That is where I get my information. The book I quoted was peer-reviewed and written by biologists. Why can't the similarity in ion channels be evidence for common design? What is the data that demonstrates such a channel can "evolve" via non-telic processes?Joseph
May 5, 2009
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"There was once a time when none of these things were in the world." By the evidence, language and meaning are at the heart of all life, and they existed long prior to mankind naming them.Upright BiPed
May 5, 2009
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It seems to me that debates of this sort often become needlessly entangled in and bogged down by questions such as dualism vs. monism. A clarifying and simplifying question: Do human beings have a natural history? Did the characteristics we most identify as human, including speech, theory of mind, the capacity for abstract reasoning, the capacity for culture and teaching, and so forth, emerge over that history? It seems to me that the answer is unequivocally "Yes," to both questions. The human species, and the hominid line of which we are the current and sole instance, does have a unique history that spans approximately 60,000 centuries. We are the remaining single line of what once was a ramifying bush of hominid species. Moving forward from the divergence of the hominid line from the other great apes, both physical and behavioral features now characteristic of all human beings emerged stepwise - including the emergence of am increasing capacity for culture, fire tending ("minding" the fire), various epochs of tool making, the emergence of cooperative skills grounded in the quick and accurate representation of others' mental states (what Whiten has called "Deep Social Mind"), and the deployment of rapid and powerful syntactic speech. It is rather obvious that the evolution of the human brain both made possible and was furthered by the emergence of these uniquely human capacities. The explosion of agriculture, domestication of animals and technology witnessed over the last 13,000 years all occurred atop these biological attainments. There was once a time when none of these things were in the world. Now, as a result of these processes and that history, here we stand, "fearfully and wonderfully made." In my opinion, it is possible to be confident that these things occurred, even if the precise details of the selection pressures and contingencies, nor their precise expression in the present day, may never be completely reconstructed. Each of us undoubtedly represents the culmination of three "tiers" of history: one's individual history, the history of the culture in which one is embedded, and the biological history that provided the platform for these more proximate forms of contingency and innovation. The collection of skills and attributes we sometimes reify as "mind" certainly also emerged by means of these tiers of history. I have never understood the reluctance of so many to accept and embrace the history that made us. So, what say you Clive? Do human beings have a natural history? If you accept that, then something like an evolution of human psychology follows - even if the details prove beyond reconstruction. If you reject that, then there is no point debating the merits of theory regarding a particular perspective on that history, namely the history of the human cognitive and psychological endowment.Diffaxial
May 5, 2009
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Allen, The evidence I use for the concept of mind is that it is not matter, nor is it an emergent quality of matter. You can say that we define it via negativa, removing false analogies and false concepts that simply won't do. Come on Allen, surely you can explain your theory of mind convincingly to a lowly moderator like me? The very definition of mind between the evolutionary psychologists and myself is what is at issue. If you cannot, in plain language and without reference to other people's books, explain the evolutionary psychology of the evolution of the mind, then I submit that you really have nothing of substance to say on the matter.Clive Hayden
May 5, 2009
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Diffaxial in #92: Bateson's "double-bind" theory of schizophrenia was revolutionary for its time. That was, of course, before there was any clear understanding of either the biochemical or genetic influences in psychopathology. In my experience, people who eventually develop schizophrenia show signs of a significant neurochemical disorder long before the full-blown syndrome develops. That said, given some of the recent research indicating that cognition can have significant effects on neurobiology (see http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2006/03/reinvention-of-self.html ), the question of whether something like Bateson's "double-bind" situation can push an already unstable mind into madness is once again an open question.Allen_MacNeill
May 5, 2009
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Clive in #91: It is finally clear to me now that you and I define "mind" very differently - indeed, our definitions are essentially incommensurate. Furthermore, your arguments for your definition of "mind" are based entirely upon assertion, and do not contain any appeal to evidence as far as I can tell. Ergo, I don't think there can be any benefit from further discussion of this topic. Indeed, based on your closing assertion:
"All I’ve heard, quite honestly, is empty rhetoric and false analogies. If the “mind’s evolution” is to be maintained, the burden of proof is on you."
I believe that any rapprochement between us on this topic is impossible. If we cannot even agree on the definition of "mind", then we cannot agree on anything. You may, of course, continue to call me names and cast aspersions on my character and quality of thought (indeed, I fully expect you to do so, rather than make an honest attempt to understand my point of view), but that's your problem, not mine.Allen_MacNeill
May 5, 2009
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Allen:
This is why Gregory Bateson entitled his most famous book Steps to an Ecology of Mind. If you haven’t read it, I strongly recommend it.
A classic, and his cybernetic view of mind as embodied and embedded loops of feedback (some of which extend outside the body) still quite relevant. His double-bind theory of schizophrenia didn't fare so well, however.Diffaxial
May 5, 2009
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Allen, Consider this bit of wisdom from G. K. Chesterton: "Some fall back simply on the clock: they talk as if mere passage through time brought some superiority; so that even a man of the first mental calibre carelessly uses the phrase that human morality is never up to date. How can anything be up to date? -- a date has no character. How can one say that Christmas celebrations are not suitable to the twenty-fifth of a month? What the writer meant, of course, was that the majority is behind his favourite minority-- or in front of it. Other vague modern people take refuge in material metaphors; in fact, this is the chief mark of vague modern people. Not daring to define their doctrine of what is good, they use physical figures of speech without stint or shame, and, what is worst of all, seem to think these cheap analogies are exquisitely spiritual and superior to the old morality. Thus they think it intellectual to talk about things being "high." It is at least the reverse of intellectual; it is a mere phrase from a steeple or a weathercock. "Tommy was a good boy" is a pure philosophical statement, worthy of Plato or Aquinas. "Tommy lived the higher life" is a gross metaphor from a ten-foot rule." In short, there must be a standard that is approximated to in order to say that minds have evolved. For evolution implies a steady-up gradient. But in the world of metaphysical things, it implies and improvement. There can never be an improvement unless there is a standard that is being approximated to. Otherwise evolution would mean congratulating yourself on reaching your destination and defining your destination as being the place that you've reached.Clive Hayden
May 5, 2009
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Allen, ----"Does the mind consist entirely of logic and reason? What about art and music and emotion and aesthetics and sentiment? Are these not just as “real” and just as “metaphysical” and just as much a part of the mind as logic and reason? Do you think that only logic and reason have regularities, and therefore only logic and reason can be studied using empirical science?" Do I think that logic and reason can be studied empirically? Of course they cannot. They are the starting point that gives any empirical study its "study". You cannot reach an ought from an is. The ought has to come first, before we can even see what anything is. The logic has to come before the study, otherwise, you're just playing with counters. And yes, there is no "science" of the mind, regardless of things like psychology, for the mind can never fully be on trial, for it is also the judge. So I ask you again, how does the immaterial mind evolve? It may boil down to your usage of the word "evolve." You stated: "The evolution of the mind is separate from the evolution of the brain, but the mind evolves and develops (i.e. changes over time in both individuals and in aggregates/cultures). If not, why would anyone ever say they “changed their mind?” The mind changes over time and cultures? No it doesn't. I don't really think you're grasping what you're saying. Just by virtue of someone changing their mind, then the mind evolves? To be honest, Allen, I can't make any sense of this. This is the smokescreen, the language game, the analogy that is not really an analogy. You would have to show me physically, an "evolution" of an immaterial mind, otherwise your usage of evolution is to mean anything that ever does anything. Minds change, so what? Why is that an evolution? There is no natural selection and no random mutation in immaterial things. There is no "ecology" of the mind. I know you evolutionists are singularly fond of biological metaphors that are totally meaningless when applied to immaterial and non-biological entities. This is really the crux of the matter. You've convinced yourself that the physical world produces the mind. But on the assumption that nature herself has no mind, this is not an answer. And any answer, any response, that you give me, that even remotely suggests that the outside world, the "ecology" plays any role in "changing the mind" begs the question, for it is only through the mind that there is any outside world to begin with, and all events that might have any bearing on our minds are not relevant when considering the mind itself, for the mind comes first, and the outside world second. It is these immaterial realities that the mind adheres, things like laws of logic and reason, sentiment, morality, and none of these are physical. So, no, I'm not convinced that our mind evolves. All I've heard, quite honestly, is empty rhetoric and false analogies. If the "mind's evolution" is to be maintained, the burden of proof is on you.Clive Hayden
May 5, 2009
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BTW, in case you're curious, my ex-wife is a relative of Wilder Penfield (look it up) and worked in the laboratory of Mohyee Eldefrawi here at Cornell (see: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/173/3994/338 )Allen_MacNeill
May 5, 2009
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The same is the case for the evolution of both neurotransmitters and their protein receptors. My ex-wife once worked with one of the principle discoverers of the acetylcholine receptor (purified from the electrical organs of electric rays, Torpedo marmorata). Like the ion channels found in all eukaryotic cells, the various neurotransmitter receptors have also been extensively studied by evolutionary biologists, and cladograms constructed illustrating their evolutionary histories. See: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/5/518Allen_MacNeill
May 5, 2009
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joseph: Your comment #85 is riddled with minor and major errors of both fact and interpretation. This is probably due, at least in part, to your use of a popular book as your reference for the biochemistry and cell biology of neurophysiology. I recommend that you take a look at the most recent edition of the standard textbook in this field: Principles of Neural Science, by Nobel-prize-winner Eric Kandel, Joseph Schwartz, and Thomas Jessell (see: http://www.amazon.com/Principles-Neural-Science-Eric-Kandel/dp/0838577016 ). In it, you can read about the fine structure of the various ion channels found in neurons and many other cells in eukaryotes. The evolution of these ion channels is an area of extremely active research (see: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/10/1/221 ). Comparisons between the structures of such channels has yielded a consistent and well-supported cladogram (i.e. "nested hierarchy") which clearly illustrates the underlying evolutionary unity of such channels.Allen_MacNeill
May 5, 2009
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Potassium sodiumJoseph
May 5, 2009
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Wet electricity. Whereas the electricity that powers our computers comes from the flow of electrons through a conductor and “hates” water, the electricity that runs our bodies is designed for a wet environment and uses pumped ions to help convey differing messages to our command center. In this environment mere electrons are of little use because they would be easily dispersed. What is needed is something bigger. And as I eluded to in my opening an ion or ions will fit the bill. Well there just happen to be two atoms well suited for ionization- two atoms with 1 outer valence electron. If we take a look at the Periodic Table, and also a look at the electron shell arrangement (note the sodium diagram on the right and also thepotassium arrangement, we see these atoms are perfect fits for the job of positive ions (as both have only one outer valence electron). Now we have the ions but we need a way for them to get into and out of the cell-> Ion Channels
Ion channels are proteins that line holes in the plasma membrane. They can open on demand to let ions in and out of the cell. They allow nerve impulses to travel, cause your heart to beat, and allow your muscles to contract. In many cells, channels and another kind of protein called a pump together maintain a relatively constant negative charge within your cells. This net negative charge, or membrane potential, affects the entry and exit of a variety of materials. page 15 of Bioinformatics, Genomics, and Proteomics: Getting the Big Picture
10 million to 100 million per second!
The importance of these precise structures and hence functioning of protein machines like these channels cannot be understated. Potassium channels, like other channels that pass other ions from one side of the cell membrane to the other, have a particular architecture that allows them to open and close upon command. We now know that intricately designed and mechanically fine-tuned ion channels determine the rhythm and allow an electrical impulse initiated when we stub our toe to be transmitted to the brain.- Ibid page 19
However even these, in comparison to electrons, huge ions also get lost in the wet environment. So what is needed are pumps along the way to pump ions in and also out. In the case of our nerve cells, ions go in to start the signal and are pumped out to reset that part of the system so it is ready for the next (or continuing) sensation. See nerve cell. (Some venoms and poisons effect these pumps (stop them from working) thereby shutting down the nervous system of the inflicted- ie paralysis sets in.) However our nerves to not touch each other as wires do in an electrical system to make a circuit. Neurons have functional connections called synapses. These can connect neuron to neuron or other types of cells (for example muscle). Between the synapse and the next cell is a gap- the synaptic cleft. This gap is too large for even ions to traverse. So to make the connection- to send the signal from one cell to the next, neurotransmitters is sent. These flow in one direction. And once the neurotransmitters reach their destination, that cell responds accordingly, and all the neurotransmitters are dismantled and shuttled back to the transmitting site to be refabbed and ready for the next signal. (some do linger a bit longer and then disperse) This is key because if the neurotransmitters stay docked the receiving cell would remain locked in that sensation. And if any unused neurotransmitters- the synaptic cleft is basically flooded to ensure signal transmission- remain they will just fill in the docking site when the first arrivals are gone. IOW the receiving cell will be locked in that past sensation. And there are different types of neurotransmitters for different sensations and purposes.Joseph
May 5, 2009
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Allen, There isn't any scientific evidence that demonstrates that flight can "evolve" from the flight-less. Ya see to go from non-flight to flight requires the rearranging of bones and muscle. Can biologists point ot the DNA sequence(s) that do such a thing? No. As for wet electricity you are so far off I don't know where to start. Perhaps you could start by reading "Electric Universe". Sodium and potassium pumps keep the ions flowing. The influx of sodium ions increase the potential difference. Once that potential reaches a threshold the information flows, riding the wave of ions. And there isn't any scientific data which demonstrates that nerves can "evolve" from organisms that never had one. So the bottom line is if glossy narratives are passed off as scientific evidence then you have it covered. However glossy narratives are never to be confused with scientific data so again you lose.Joseph
May 5, 2009
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joseph in #82: I find many of your comments useless at best (and counter-productive, if not deliberately inflammatory, at worst) because, in general, they do not contain arguments nor evidence. Instead, they usually consist of unsupported negative assertions against particular arguments. That is, they consist almost entirely of unsupported negative opinions, which (lacking such supporting evidence) are completely worthless. As to your specific examples in comment #82: With respect to the evolution of flight, the point was to show that flight (defined as movement through the air using an airfoil) has evolved dozens (possible hundreds) of times, in phyla as unrelated to each other as birds and maple trees (I have listed out the various examples of this convergent series elsewhere, and so will not waste further bandwidth doing so here). This is presumptive evidence that the evolution of flight is both tightly constrained by the physical dynamics of airfoils, but not tightly constrained by the evolutionary genetics of airfoil specification and/or development. Stated simply, it appears that the evolution of flight is relatively easy (as it happened multiple times in multiple, unrelated phylogenetic lines), so long as the organisms being modified have phenotypic characters (generated by sufficiently variable genetic and developmental systems) that can be modified into airfoils. If you want detailed expositions of the actual numerical data underlying these conclusions, be prepared to delve deeply into a highly technical literature. I can provide you with references, but to duplicate that data here would represent a colossal waste of bandwidth. That's what libraries (full of paper and ink books) are for. To sum up, flight has evolved multiple times in multiple phylogenetic lines by means of natural selection operating on pre-existing structural features (specified by variable genetic and developmental programs) in the context of flight using airfoils (which are, in turn, grounded in the physics of the Bernoulli principle). As for the "wet electricity" that supposedly "flows down neurons", electricity doesn't flow down neurons; if that was how our nervous system worked, no animal could be more than a millimeter or so in longest dimension. Indeed, the fact that neurons have very low longitudinal conductance (i.e. very high longitudinal resistance) is essential for their biological function. The way information is transmitted along neurons (or, to be more specific, axons) is by a propagated wave of rapid changes in permeability of the axonal membrane to sodium ions, followed a few milliseconds later by a concomitant change in permeability of the membrane to potassium ions. These changes are propagated along the membrane of the axon by successive changes in ionic permeability in successive segments of the axonal membrane, and not by longitudinal electrical conductance (which decays very rapidly with distance according to the standard inverse-square law of electrical resistance). This system (which exists in the neurons of all animals and the plasma membranes of many unicellular protists, and even some plants) simply co-opts a transmembrane ionic regulation system that is found as far back as the most ancestral unicellular eukaryotic cells (and possibly as far back as the non-encapsulated thermoplasmas; that is, at least three billion years ago). To sum up, nervous signal transmission via action potentials has evolved multiple times in multiple phylogenetic lines by means of natural selection operating on pre-existing structural features (specified by variable genetic and developmental programs) in the context of variable ion regulation across selectively permeable plasma membranes in highly modified cells (which are, in turn, grounded in the physics of diffusion and electrostatic interactions). In other words, both of the examples you have chosen to represent as "failures" of evolutionary explanations are, in fact, among its most spectacular successes.Allen_MacNeill
May 5, 2009
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Allen, If you don't like my comments then perhaps YOU can start supporting YOUR position with scientific data. To date you have failed to do so. Your links to flight were sophmoric at best. Those scientists didn't even seem to understand kineseology. Your position doesn't have an explanation for wet electricty- ya know what flows down neurons and runs our bodies. You have nuthin' except to say "it evolved".Joseph
May 5, 2009
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It's 12:4 AM, the rest of my family has been asleep for hours, and my students will be waiting for me and for their final exams in just a few short hours. Good night, sweet prince, and flights of angels sing thee to thy rest. For tonight, at least, the rest is silence...Allen_MacNeill
May 4, 2009
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Clive in #78: Does the mind consist entirely of logic and reason? What about art and music and emotion and aesthetics and sentiment? Are these not just as "real" and just as "metaphysical" and just as much a part of the mind as logic and reason? Do you think that only logic and reason have regularities, and therefore only logic and reason can be studied using empirical science? Do you, in fact, think there is no such thing as a "science" of the mind (i.e. psychology)? If so, then I can see why you might not also think there could be a science of the evolution of the mind as well. The evolution of the mind is separate from the evolution of the brain, but the mind evolves and develops (i.e. changes over time in both individuals and in aggregates/cultures). If not, why would anyone ever say they "changed their mind?" The "ecology" of the mind changes over time in ways that are analogous to the "outdoor" ecology of the biosphere. This is why Gregory Bateson entitled his most famous book Steps to an Ecology of Mind. If you haven't read it, I strongly recommend it. One of the most basic concepts of Zen Buddhism is that our perception of our self (i.e. our mind) as a singular, isolated, and unchanging entity is an illusion. The same is apparently true for the physical world within which the mind evolves. Indeed, the two (the mind and nature) co-evolve, and both cause changes in their respective ecologies, and also react to those changes. Are you therefore asserting that metaphysical things (such as minds) can't evolve? Why not? And based upon what evidence?Allen_MacNeill
May 4, 2009
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In #76 Clive Hayden wrote:
"...then you’re admitting that mind is separate from matter,
yes, I agree, they are not the same thing
and not as some emergent quality of material,
no, I disagree, emergent properties are also not reducible to the components that produce them; if they were, we wouldn't refer to them as "emergent from", but rather as "composed of" or "reducible to" those components
but as a real and separate entity.
yes, I agree
And if you admit that the mind really is separate, then the capacity of any “evolved” trait is only the vehicle, the second thing, that allows the immaterial mind access to what it has capacity to detect.
Nicely expressed, if slightly different than I would have expressed it. Specifically, I would add "and invent (and dream up)" after "to detect" at the end of the sentence (and maybe change "detect' to "discover"). Also, I would go on to assert that: 1) there is abundant empirical evidence that brains can exist without minds (this is certainly the case for dead brains); but 2) there is no empirical evidence that minds can exist without some kind of material vehicle in which to live; 3) there is also no empirical evidence that the entire contents of a given mind can be transferred with very high fidelity to another material vehicle (yet), nor somehow exist outside of one (yet); and 4) point #3 notwithstanding, there is no necessary reason that I can think of that such "high fidelity" transfer or "immaterial existence" must or will remain forever impossible.Allen_MacNeill
May 4, 2009
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Allen, "Evolutionary psychology is the empirical study of the evolution of the cognitive structure and functions of the human mind...." Mind? The study of the functions of the mind? What does that even mean? The functions of the human mind are things called laws of logic and reason. And, you're back-peddling again Allen, the "cultural and ecological contexts within which the mind has evolved"? Didn't you just explain that the mind is separate from the evolution of the brain? In effect saying that the mind is not matter, so how can the mind evolve? How can metaphysical things evolve?Clive Hayden
May 4, 2009
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"Psychology": From the Greek psyche, meaning "idea" or "mind" (orig. "soul"), and logos, meaning "knowledge" or "study" (orig. "word"). Psychology is the study of the mind, which "lives" in (but is not reducible to nor determined by) the neural circuitry of the brain. Evolutionary psychology is the empirical study of the evolution of the cognitive structure and functions of the human mind and their relationships with the structures and functions of human (and higher primate) sensory, nervous, and motor systems, its relationships with human genetics and development, and its relationships with the cultural and ecological contexts within which the mind has evolved. If you would like a more detailed description, go here: http://www.psych.ucsb.edu/research/cep/primer.html I don't necessarily agree with all of Cosmides and Tooby's definitions and hypotheses, but it's a good start.Allen_MacNeill
May 4, 2009
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Allen, I realize that you're not a strict materialist, for a strict materialist would have to contend that the things that "live" in the brain are part of the brain, for no metaphysical reality exists. You, however, recognize the importance and reality of the metaphysical realm, which I am glad to see. But it does seem odd to me that you still think these metaphysical things to be a "quality" of the matter, as beauty is a quality of a painting. The beauty doesn't live in the painting. The metaphysical realm doesn't live in the brain. Numbers, for example, would exist regardless of our ability or capacity to access them or add them up. I'm only trying to get you to see that these things do not really emerge from any capacity, they exist prior to the capacity. Maybe you agree with that statement, I don't know. If you do, then you're admitting that mind is separate from matter, and not as some emergent quality of material, but as a real and separate entity. And if you admit that the mind really is separate, then the capacity of any "evolved" trait is only the vehicle, the second thing, that allows the immaterial mind access to what it has capacity to detect. And exactly how is it that the physical capacity is at all linked with the "psychology'........you know, the second half of your discipline. When does the psychology come into play?Clive Hayden
May 4, 2009
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Allen, Again, where does the 'psychology' come into play?Clive Hayden
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