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Why do we need to make a decision about common descent anyway?

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To “Why, exactly, should we believe that humans are descended from simpler forms of life?”, Mark Frank responds,

This is really very simple. Either:

1. We descended from a simpler form of life.

2. We descended from an equally complicated form of life which has left no trace.

3. We didn’t descend from any form of life but somehow sprang into existence (as adults I guess as human babies can’t survive by themselves).

Be honest – which seems the most plausible?

Actually, it is even simpler than Mark Frank makes out. Nothing is at issue if I just decline to offer an opinion.

His 1. would seem plausible except for the people shouting that we are 98 percent chimpanzee. And they’re the strongest supporters of common descent. They want it rammed down everyone’s throat from kindergarten to the retirement home.

Yet not only is their claim implausible on its face (anyone can tell the difference between a human and a chimpanzee), it is unsatisfactory. It leaves unaccounted for everything of which we would like an account.

His 2. is hardly implausible. It would be a familiar situation to any adopted child who can’t trace birth parents. As an account, is it unsatisfactory principally because it amounts to saying that there is no information available? That might be true, but I don’t know that it is.

His 3. is really not much different from 2., in that no further information about origins is likely to be available.

So the actual choice, assuming Frank’s list is exhaustive, is between an account offered by people whose judgement can be seriously questioned and accounts that point to the futility of seeking further information.

It’s a good thing Thomas Huxley coined the term agnostic (“it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of any proposition unless he can produce evidence which logically justifies that certainty”). That just about characterizes what I consider the wisest position just now on common descent.

See also: What can we responsibly believe about human evolution?

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Comments
Joe @8:
Was the alleged common ancestor of chimps and humans more like chimps and apes or more like humans?
Why is that important? We had a common ancestor. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not even correct to say that we are more complex than our common ancestor with the apes. All we can say is that we are different.Acartia_bogart
August 5, 2014
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Mark Frank 7 and 10
So we are left with a hypothesis which says we arose through an extension of processes we see around us all the time [i.e.]
Biological reproduction as observed millions of times.
or it happened as a unique event we know nothing about and nothing resembling which has ever been observed
So does the process of "Biological reproduction as observed millions of times." also have a unique initial event we know nothing about? or has it always been what we observe since the beginning of time?awstar
August 5, 2014
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#11 News I remind you once again that the people who believe in Common Descent (which is a stronger claim than We Are Descended from Simpler Life Forms) include many of ID's leading proponents including VJ Torley and Gpuccio on this forum (I can't remember whether Barry does). I doubt they make any claim about the similarity of people and chimpanzees. So why don't you calm down about that particular bee in your bonnet and examine the arguments.Mark Frank
August 5, 2014
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Mark Frank at 7: No one said anyone says humans are descended from chimpanzees. BUT claimed 98% similarity due to a common ancestor (a claim that hundreds of science writers regularly make, in support of common descent) *undermines anything else they have to say on the subject.* I do not know how to put the matter more simply than this: A person who does not see the problem is not a credible source of information. You write, "There may well be a reasonable dispute about how much people differ from chimpanzees. It may even be that those who claim we are similar are wrong." Indeed. Recognizing such facts may even function as a sanity test. It is not just a "reasonable dispute." It is a sine qua non (without which, nothing) for taking their position seriously. If the people who claim common ancestry DO ever want to get serious about their figures, I'm all for taking a look at their arguments. If not, well, they can always pull in people who can live with blatant contradiction, but not everyone is so logic-free, it seems.News
August 5, 2014
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#9 awstar
Specifically which processes would these be?
Biological reproduction as observed millions of times.Mark Frank
August 5, 2014
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Mark Frank at 7 said:
So we are left with a hypothesis which says we arose through an extension of processes we see around us all the time or it happened as a unique event we know nothing about and nothing resembling which has ever been observed
Specifically which processes would these be?awstar
August 5, 2014
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Mark Frank- Was the alleged common ancestor of chimps and humans more like chimps and apes or more like humans? All of the examples of descent have organisms producing the exact same type of organism as the parents. Human babies are slightly different from their parents but they are still human and nothing suggests they will be anything else other than humans. There aren't any known evolutionary events that can be used to extrapolate universal common descent. No known mechanism can produce the changes required. That means the extension of processes hypothesis is refuted.Joe
August 5, 2014
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His 1. would seem plausible except for the people shouting that we are 98 percent chimpanzee. And they’re the strongest supporters of common descent. They want it rammed down everyone’s throat from kindergarten to the retirement home. Yet not only is their claim implausible on its face (anyone can tell the difference between a human and a chimpanzee), it is unsatisfactory. It leaves unaccounted for everything of which we would like an account.
Denyse I suggest you repeat this until you have learned it by heart:  Biologists do not claim that people are descended from chimpanzees. For some reason it seems to keep slipping your mind. There may well be a reasonable dispute about how much people differ from chimpanzees. It may even be that those who claim we are similar are wrong. They may even be the same people who argue for common descent (but remember the latter group includes many ID proponents – so I think it is unlikely).  None of this weakens the overwhelming evidence that we are descended from a simpler life form which to put it simply comprises: * Every living thing that we know of (including every person) was descended from another living thing. We have zero examples of living things appearing do novo. We have many millions of proven cases of descent. * Descendants are not identical to their parents. They change. * Once upon a time there were only much simpler life forms on this planet. Notice – no mention of chimpanzees or even apes.
His 2. is hardly implausible. It would be a familiar situation to any adopted child who can’t trace birth parents. As an account, is it unsatisfactory principally because it amounts to saying that there is no information available. That might be true, but I don’t know that it is.
It is unsatisfactory for a deeper reason.  It raises the question  – what was the more complex life form descended from?
His 3. is really not much different from 2., in that no further information about origins is likely to be available.
So we are left with a hypothesis which says we arose through an extension of processes we see around us all the time or it happened as a unique event we know nothing about and nothing resembling which has ever been observed (assembling a viable population of people at one time in one place from inanimate matter). Sure you don’t have to choose.  But I have to suspect your motives.
So the actual choice, assuming Frank’s list is exhaustive, is between an account offered by people whose judgement can be seriously questioned and accounts that point to the futility of seeking further information.
Criticise the account, not the people who offer it. Mark Frank
August 5, 2014
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I agree with Joe #5. Further if we only consider the general physical strength of the Neanderthal’s then we must conclude that we have been in descent for a very long time. Besides we have the genetic load of accumulating harmful mutations that is tearing us down – not building us up which is exactly opposite to what evolution teaches.fossil
August 5, 2014
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What evidence supports scenario 1?
Loci that are obviously variable within natural populations do not seem to lie at the basis of many major adaptive changes, while those loci that seemingly do constitute the foundation of many if not most major adaptive changes are not variable.- John McDonald, “The Molecular Basis of Adaptation: A Critical Review of Relevant Ideas and Observation”, Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics: 14, 1983, p77-102
Joe
August 5, 2014
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///They want it rammed down everyone’s throat from kindergarten to the retirement home./// The evidence only supports scenario 1. So yes, people have to be taught about it. If you want a science literate population, that is. ///That just about characterizes what I consider the wisest position just now on common descent./// Nobody with a proper understanding of the evidence will take an agnostic position on common descent. Only those with a certain agenda will try to shoo away the overwhelming evidence in support of it.Evolve
August 5, 2014
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^^^^ It should be...Evolve
August 5, 2014
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///Why do they say we “descended” from a simpler form of life./// Gosh! It's should be descent, not descend. There's a difference between the two words.Evolve
August 5, 2014
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Why do they say we "descended" from a simpler form of life. Shouldn't they be saying we ASCENDED from a simpler form of life? Without this conflicting terminology, the arguments become much clearer as to whether science shows we are ascending or descending as human beings.awstar
August 5, 2014
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