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Will Texas Face Court Challenges to the New Science Standards?

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Now that the moaning and hand-wringing are over, there’s talk of mounting some legal challenges to the new science standards in Texas. At issue aren’t the standards themselves, but the personal motivations of some of the Board members who advocated for these standards.

Now the issue is whether there is enough prima facie evidence to challenge the Constitutionality of the wording now, or wait for the textbook review process in two years.

“They have shown clear religious motivations that certainly raise some questions,” Quinn said. “But if the board requires phony religious arguments in the science textbooks, I can’t imagine somebody won’t challenge it.” Publishers may end up producing a textbook for Texas and other conservative states and a separate version for other states—because under the new guidelines, a Texas textbook “will be poison in states that value education,” [Dan Quinn, a spokesman for the Texas Freedom Network].


I guess Quinn isn’t bothered at all by the motivations of atheists or philosophical naturalists who want to teach students that no matter how complex and specified biological systems might appear, the design is only apparent and not actual because nature posses all the creative power to produce it through chance and/or necessity. If Quinn is really concerned about motivations, he ought to check the philosophical and worldview motivations of those who want to promote naturalism as science in science classrooms. He has nary a peep about any of that.

So here’s a few questions for Mr. Quinn and anyone else sweating bullets over the “religious” motivations of those who question the way science is taught in public school classrooms: What does a worldview free science classroom look like? How do you sucessfully divorce science from any and all philosophical underpinnings? And if you can’t do that, how do you decide which philosophical considerations are necessary for science and which aren’t?

While we’re on the subject of motivations, perhaps Mr. Quinn might take note that William Wilberforce fought for over 20 years in the early 1800’s to end the slave trade in England motivated almost entirely by his “religion” (Christianity). Should England have repealed the anti-slave trade act because of those “religious” motivations? Or can we only call motivations into question when it involves how we teach science? If so, Mr. Quinn, what’s your specific criteria for determining those motivations and deciding that no matter how good the standards might be, if they were inspired by the “wrong” motivations, we just can’t let them stand.

Comments
mauka, I am not a christian and believe the Bible is nothing more than a collection of stories. As for your alleged transitional- it doesn't cause me any agony because you cannot demonstrate that any amount of mutational accumulation can account for such an organism "evolving" from a purely land animal. BTW I was a staunch evolutionist until I started looking more closely at the scientific data while studying to be a zoologist/ marine biologist.Joseph
April 24, 2009
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Adel, ID does NOT deal with trivial questions about any specific bone. The theory of evolution doesn't either.Joseph
April 24, 2009
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SCheesman writes:
Still, even if it is transitional, what of it? ID doesn’t deny that forms evolved, and there obviously has to be a gradation and transitional forms, even in ID.
SCheesman, You apparently aren't aware that ID's "big tent" includes creationists, such as Joseph. That's why I directed my comment specifically to him.mauka
April 23, 2009
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mauka Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The age of the fossil has it co-existing with modern seals, so the researchers are forced to say it must be a "living fossil". That puts it in the same category as many other "modern" creatures with some "ancestral" characteristics. I think, before you can call something transitional, you actually have to locate it at the correct time. Maybe both it and modern seals evolved from a different common ancestor. Still, even if it is transitional, what of it? ID doesn't deny that forms evolved, and there obviously has to be a gradation and transitional forms, even in ID. The point is that discoveries like this remain exceptional; evolution has not left the countless numbers and smooth parade of forms that Darwin hoped for. Evolution as observed in the fossil record happens in leaps and bounds. This discovery, though very interesting, does not change that.SCheesman
April 23, 2009
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Joseph, Here is a new transitional for you to agonize over. Enjoy!mauka
April 23, 2009
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Thank you, Joseph, for your non-answers to my questions about how Intelligent Design theory explains the evidence.
As for whales and that bone- it is obvious that you don’t understand ID.
Evidently, you don't understand it either.Adel DiBagno
April 23, 2009
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Adel, Intelligent Design is NOT anti-evolution. And yes Tiki could be a transitional. But until there is some genetic data that can account for the changes there isn't any way to test the premise. The genetic data that Khan posted is speculative- meaning it needs to be TESTED. So if imagination is evidence then there is evidence. However imagination is not evidence. As for whales and that bone- it is obvious that you don't understand ID. Oh well, not my problem...Joseph
April 23, 2009
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Joseph, Thanks for responding to my posts. You said,
Tiki could just be a mosaic- not a transitional.
It could also be a transitional form. How does Intelligent Design theory help us decide, based on the available evidence?
There isn’t any genetic evidence that would demonstrate those changes are even possible.
See Khan #45. To which you replied,
That is a start but they have a long, long way to go.
Nevertheless, there is genetic evidence for the possibility of such changes.
As for the bones in whales- they are bones. They certainly do not match any definition of “femur” we currently use.
So, you agree that they are bones, but their nature is a mystery to you. Does Intelligent Design theory provide an explanation for why the designer put those bones there?Adel DiBagno
April 22, 2009
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David Kellogg, Until YOU can start producing 1- That mysterious definition of nested hierarchy tat some few evolutionary scientists use AND 2- Those rigorous definitions that evolutionary scientists use Don't bother asking me anything as it is clear that YOU are beyond reasoning.Joseph
April 22, 2009
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Adel, Tiki could just be a mosaic- not a transitional. There isn't any genetic evidence that would demonstrate those changes are even possible. As for the bones in whales- they are bones. They certainly do not match any definition of "femur" we currently use.Joseph
April 22, 2009
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Tiki only has a “wrist” if one redefines the definition of a wrist. Evolution news and Views has a good article” An “Ulnare” and an “Intermedium” a Wrist Do Not Make: A Response to Carl Zimmer IOW Tike has a “wrist” only because it has been deemed a transitional from water to land.
That's exactly how it's supposed to work. The theory of evolution is a hypothesis. It predicts that transitional forms exist. Tiktaalik has features expected of a transitional form. Therefore, it confirms the hypothesis.
Which is basically what happened to whales- there have been claims of a femur found in whales. But the claim of a “femur” is just because it is assumed that whales evolved from land animals.
Again, you have it correct, except you need to substitute "it is hypothesized" for "it is assumed." (Since all assumptions in science are tentative.) So, if them bones ain't femurs, what are they? What does Intelligent Design theory have to say on that issue?Adel DiBagno
April 21, 2009
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I'm impressed by how every transitional form produces two new gaps. The more transitional forms, the more gaps between them! Also: Joseph, can you explain who claims that "a bone-less fin can evolve into a fin with robust bones"?David Kellogg
April 21, 2009
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Tiki's "wrist"- Tiki only has a "wrist" if one redefines the definition of a wrist. Evolution news and Views has a good article" An "Ulnare" and an "Intermedium" a Wrist Do Not Make: A Response to Carl Zimmer IOW Tike has a "wrist" only because it has been deemed a transitional from water to land. Which is basically what happened to whales- there have been claims of a femur found in whales. But the claim of a "femur" is just because it is assumed that whales evolved from land animals.Joseph
April 21, 2009
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Khan, That is a start but they have a long, long way to go. I do find it amusing how they start with the conclusion that said evolution occurred. But hey if they can take a fish embryo- one without those robust bones in its fins- add the missing genes- or whatever- and get a fish with those robust bones then you will have something. However we still do not know what makes a fish a fish. You know what else would be helpful for your position? Demonstrating that the HOX and other regulatory genes arose via an accumulation of genetic accidents. Ya see I think that the transition would require more than two specified mutations. And if that is the case there wouldn't be enough time on this planet for your scenario to work.Joseph
April 21, 2009
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mikev6, You were talikng about speciation. YEC accepts speciation.Joseph
April 21, 2009
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joseph@136 commented:
Young Earth Creationists accept speciation. They say that all living organisms are descended from the originally Created Kind.
That's my understanding as well; I'm not quite getting the connection here though - could you add a little more context?mikev6
April 20, 2009
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If I wanted a fin without bones I'd have to use a fillet knife.David Kellogg
April 20, 2009
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Joseph [118]
"How do your know that it’s a ‘fish’?" I am taking the word of the scientists who reviewed it.
Joseph [135]
The wikipedia article is wrong.
I sense a double standard regarding how you evaluate evidence.
There isn’t any genetic data which would demonstrate a bone-less fin can evolve into a fin with robust bones.
So?Adel DiBagno
April 20, 2009
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Joseph (144), we can test for the genetic bases of this transition by comparing expression of conserved genes like homeoboxes during fin and limb development. Differential expression of Hoxa-11 and Hoxd-13 in tetrapods and fish during development appear to at least be partially responsible for the fin-limb difference. the next step is to see how the regulatory genes that control hox expression differ between fish and tetrapods (no easy task). this would give us some idea of the mutations that would be necessary to cause the change in expression, and hence fin-limb transition. given that regulatory sequences are frequently quite small (sometimes just 6 nucleotides) it may not take many mutations to cause this change. but we will have to eagerly await those results. in the meantime you can read this nice article for a summary of work on the genetic bases of fin-to-limb transition. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VJ1-3WJG188-7&_user=5460004&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000062861&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=5460004&md5=a9de472b65b48569be541a83bc98139b does that help?Khan
April 20, 2009
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Khan, What is the genetic data which demonstrates that fish without such bones in their fins can evolve into fish with such bones? How can we test such a premise?Joseph
April 20, 2009
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Hi jerry, I was just suggesting another way of looking at the founder effect that might help others understand it. The founder effect, however, does play a role in punk eek, since it contributes to allopatric speciation. To Gould and Eldredge, punk eek was an explanation of the patterns allopatric speciation could be expected to show in the fossil record.Dave Wisker
April 20, 2009
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jerry, it really is difficult to know where to begin. i really think the problem is in your vague, poorly formulated definitions that seem to be shared exclusively by you. for example,in 140, what is "nothing major" and what is "current times"? and why does this statement completely contradict what you say in the end, that there should be "thousands of steps." you seem to simultaneously want small steps and major changes at the same time. in other posts you seem to agree that there are plenty of examples of "small steps", i.e. speciation events that we can observe. this is what you (mistakenly) call microevolution. each of these speciation events might (or might not) be a step towards something else (a novel complex function, for example). what that something is we have no way of knowing. so how can you say that we are not on the way to "new and better capabilities" when we don't know what those capabilities may be? and what, exactly, do you expect to see in"modern times" (besides Charlie CHaplin)? small steps or major changes?Khan
April 20, 2009
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David Wisker, ID has no problem with the founder effect or any of the other ways that populations generate new variants. I personally never associated the founder effect with punctuated equilibrium. My impression was that in these isolated populations, something more than micro evolution within a limited gene pool was going on. Otherwise why make a big deal about punctuated equilibrium and why did it take so long to convince evolutionary biologists about it. That's why I though it had to do with much more than micro evolution. It seems simple to understand.jerry
April 20, 2009
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mikev6, As far as evolution is concerned the evidence seems to point to nothing major happening during current times. That is one of the ID objections to the Darwinian process leading toward macro evolution. While micro evolution happens all the time, there does not seem to be any evidence that there is any progression to new complex capabilities anywhere on the planet. An interesting discussion of this is by John Davison who wrote an essay or paper on it called "The Blind Alley." Here is the link to this article https://uncommondescent.com/dr-john-davison-biologist/a-blind-alley/ The Darwinian process predicts thousands of steps along the way to new and better capabilities each of which would be a viable species and there should be evidence of this but there isn't. So why has this process stopped. Maybe it never happened the way they hypothesize.jerry
April 20, 2009
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Another way of describing the founder effect is to say small samples of populations often do not represent the gene pool of the population as a whole. For those familiar with statistics, it is the equivalent of sampling error.Dave Wisker
April 20, 2009
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Joseph, if the wikipedia article is wrong then the original scientific article is wrong too.: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v440/n7085/abs/nature04639.html
Although the body scales, fin rays, lower jaw and palate are comparable to those in more primitive sarcopterygians, the new species also has a shortened skull roof, a modified ear region, a mobile neck, a functional wrist joint, and other features that presage tetrapod conditions.
did you examine tiktaalik yourself? if so, you should write a follow-up paper to Nature.Khan
April 20, 2009
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Khan:
it is obvious in the article that they are referring to the standard definition of macroevolution as evolution at the species level and above, and not the special UD definition of evolution of novel complex traits.
And as you have been told that standard definition is useless regarding the debate. Also it is NOT the UD definition that is used to differentiate but the Creation definition. Ya see "species" is an ambiguous concept. Therefor saying variation leading to a new species or at or above the level of species, is macro-evolution, is nonsensical. Then you say you are trying to have a civil conversation- more nonsense. If you were interested in a civil conversation you would start supporting the claims of your position.Joseph
April 20, 2009
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mikev6, Young Earth Creationists accept speciation. They say that all living organisms are descended from the originally Created Kind.Joseph
April 20, 2009
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Adel, The wikipedia article is wrong. There wasn't any functional wrist found nor any lungs present. And it could just be a mosaic- ya know like the duck-bill platypus. There isn't any genetic data which would demonstrate a bone-less fin can evolve into a fin with robust bones.Joseph
April 20, 2009
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khan, I stand corrected. I understand what you are saying and that it is just micro evolution. It was my impression that more than just an unusual combination of alleles arose when the population was separated but that novel complex capabilities could also arise. So we are getting some place here and the ID and anti ID people are coming together on some stuff. Thank you, khan. I am sincere in that thank you and am glad you proved me wrong. So punctuated equilibrium is a little like artificial selection. There was no attempt to quote mine but just a misunderstanding on what you meant on your understanding of what I meant (sounds confusing). This is an interesting development because I bet few here have this understanding of punctuated equilibrium.jerry
April 20, 2009
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