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Yes, KN. It Is a Literal Code

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Kantian Naturalist is always good for provoking a thought.  In a comment to a prior post he writes:

I had a minor insight yesterday: that one way of characterizing the dispute between design theorists and their critics is in terms of the question, “is the ‘code’ in ‘the genetic code’ meant literally or metaphorically?”

What I’m not sure is whether that question has a framework-neutral answer — whether one could give a fully satisfying answer to that question without presupposing either design theory or evolutionary theory.

This is an interesting comment. A debate on this topic raged on these pages for several weeks earlier this year. See here.

Summary: The genetic code is a literal code. Even prominent Darwinists admit this.

In response to the above, KN wrote in a comment:

If a code requires linguistic rules, and if linguistic rules are just how speakers hold each accountable for what they say, then the genetic code cannot be a literal code, since nucleotide sequences are not themselves speakers or agents of any kind.

So if one is going to maintain that the genetic code is a literal code, one will have to present a theory of what it is for something to be a linguistic rule without there being any speakers of the language. (Good luck with that.)

I have expanded this post to include my response to KN’s comment:

KN:  “If a code requires linguistic rules . . .”

It does not.  Accordingly, everything you say after this is irrelevant.

Here is the problem.  We have a word “code” and you and I seem to be using it in two different ways.  I am using the word broadly to refer to any code, including a linguistic code.  You are using the word narrowly to refer to only a linguistic code.

If we hope to make any progress, we must arrive at a convention.

I propose using the definition set forth in Wikipedia here*

“A code is a rule for converting a piece of information . . . into another . . . form or representation (one sign into another sign) . . .”

(*as kairosfocus always says “testifying against known ideological interest.”  In other words, there are no friends of ID over at Wiki, so we don’t have to worry that they may have skewed their discussion of “code” as a result of a pro-ID bias.  They have a clear Darwinian/materialist bias there).

Thus, a code is the protocol (the rules if you will) by which one translates a sign into that which is signified.

Here is an example from Morse Code:  Let us say the sign is “dot dash.”  The thing signified by the sign is the English letter “A.”  The protocol/rule connecting the “dot dash” with the letter “A” – that is the “code” – is the conventions of the Morse Code system.

You focus on language as a code, and certainly it is.

Example:  Let us say the sign is “Dog.”  The thing signified is the furry four-legged critter sitting in my wife’s lap right now.  The protocol/rule connecting “dog” with “furry critter” is the conventions of the English language.

Summary:  For every code there will be a sign.  There will be that which is signified by the sign.  And the “code” will the protocols/rules by which the sign is linked to the thing signified.

Notice that arbitrariness of the linking rules within codes is ubiquitous.  In other words, the sign has no independent connection with that which is signified, and the sign could be something else completely if the rules of the code were different.

For example, there is nothing about “dot dash” that suggests it should stand for “A.”  The connection is completely arbitrary, and “dash dash dot” could just as well stand for “A.”  There is nothing about “D O G” that suggests the furry critter, and another combination of letters (say “B L I M P”) could serve just as well if English speakers agreed to start using the word “blimp” instead of the word “dog” for the furry critter.  This is made even more obvious by the fact that other linguistic systems use different conventions to achieve the same result.  If I point to a furry critter and say “dog” and a German points to the same critter and says “hund,” we are both correct within the conventions of the linguistic code we are employing.  Thus, the word we use to refer to the furry critter (the sign) is arbitrary.

OK.  We’ve established that a code is the set of rules linking a sign with that which is signified and the fact that the link is arbitrary.

How does this apply to the DNA code?  In this code we have a sign (a codon) and a thing that is signified (an amino acid) and a protocol for translating one into the other.  Moreover, the arrangement of signs constituting a particular instruction in the DNA code is arbitrary in the same way that the arrangement of signs for representing the furry critter is arbitrary.

For example, suppose in a particular strand of DNA the arrangement “AGC” means “add amino acid X.”  There is nothing about the chemical structure of amino acid X that requires the instruction “add amino acid  X” to be represented by “AGC.”  If the semiotic rules of the genetic code were different, the identical result could be accomplished using, say,“UAG” or any other combination.  Thus, the sign “AGC” is arbitrary to the thing signified, “add amino acid X.”

Genetic code (RNA form), courtesy Wiki
Genetic code (RNA form), courtesy Wiki

BTW, Wiki agrees that the genetic code is a literal code.  The articles on codes linked above uses the genetic code as an example of a type of code and states:

Biological organisms contain genetic material that is used to control their function and development. This is DNA which contains units named genes that can produce proteins through a code (genetic code) in which a series of triplets (codons) of four possible nucleotides are translated into one of twenty possible amino acids. A sequence of codons results in a corresponding sequence of amino acids that form a protein.

Why is all of this important to ID?  It is important because it shows that the DNA code is not analogous to a semiotic code.  It is isometric with a semiotic code.  In other words, the digital code embedded in DNA is not “like” a semiotic code, it “is” a semiotic code.  This in turn is important because there is only one known source for a semiotic code where the provenance of the code is actually known instead of inferred:  intelligent agency.  Therefore, the presence of a semiotic code embedded within the cells of every living thing is powerful evidence of design, and the burden is on those who would deny design to demonstrate how a semiotic code could be developed though blind chance or mechanical law or both.

 

Comments
Mark Frank (#194), You wrote,
You provide examples of natural explanations or theories which have been rejected but they have not been superseded by accepted supernatural explanations based on repeatable mutual observation. This is not a coincidence.
I agree that the null hypothesis is invalid here. The question is, which alternate hypothesis most adequately accounts for the data? Your hypothesis is,
It is woven into the definition of supernatural that it cannot be based on repeatable mutual observation.
I find that hypothesis to be improbable. Apparently supernatural events can be repeated often enough so that they come to be expected; for example, the healing miracles of Jesus. People expected them enough to seek after them. Of course, if one starts out knowing that Jesus could not perform miracles, then these could not have been reproducible events. But that is assuming naturalism, which I am not willing to do a priori. It seems to me that one must be open to all possibilities, at least at the start. What I see instead is that people have worked backwards from naturalism. Sometimes this led them to claim that they had solved a supposedly supernatural event that, in their mind, had a naturalistic explanation. And sometimes supernaturalists agreed. I doubt you will find any educated Westerners that deny that lightning and thunder are electrically based phenomena. And there are some believers in naturalism (I will call them naturalists* to distinguish them from those who study nature regardless of their belief in the supernatural, who can also be called naturalists) that will never admit that a supernatural explanation is really the correct one. If they did, they would not believe in naturalism, now, would they? They do occasionally switch (see Antony Flew), but most simply manage to avoid the implications of the evidence. But being a naturalist* does not mean never having to say that you were wrong. Sometimes a puzzle has to go from "solved" to "unsolved" for naturalism, and the evidence itself may turn out to be much more compatible with supernaturalism than the previous naturalistic model. So in practice, the one-way ratchet fails. Let me give one more example that is not in the article. The story of the invasion of Judah by Sennacherib is recounted in Isaiah 36 and 37. The miracle is recorded in Isaiah 37:36. It is also repeated in 2 Kings 18:13-37 and chapter 19, the key verse being 2 Kings 19:35, and in a shorter version in 2 Chronicles 32:1-23, with the key verse being verse 21. The theist story was, Sennacherib was invading Judah, and his spokesman, presumably at his command, insulted God. God caused 185,000 of his troops to die overnight, and Sennacherib left Judea without taking Jerusalem. Of course, that story is incompatible with naturalism. So a solution was sought by naturalists*. They thought they had solved the problem by declaring that the story was made up. There was no independent evidence that such a campaign had been undertaken, and the whole 185,000 soldier story was a myth. (In fact, there was independent evidence, from Herodotus, and from Berossus, quoted by Josephus, but the latter was written off as coming through a known theist and therefore unreliable, and the former came from someone who would repeat fables and the account was therefore unreliable. It is a classic example of how one can insulate oneself from data that would destroy one's pet theory. One simply finds ways to deny the validity of the data, because they would otherwise undermine the pet theory.) When Sennacherib's annals were found, it turned out that Sennacherib had invaded Judah, took Lachish and 45 other cities and towns, and for unclear reasons, shut up Hezekiah in Jerusalem like a bird in a cage, but did not conquer him [uncharacteristically of Assyrian monarchs], and instead had accepted tribute and left. (Note that the tribute was given/taken before the invasion according to the Biblical story.) One has to be careful with the monuments, as they spin and sometimes lie (Sargon II did not conquer Samaria, even though his monuments claim this--of course, our government never does this, cough, cough, gulf of Tonkin, cough). But it does seem that there is some basis for believing the Biblical record on this, and more than there used to be.
You will not be surprised to learn that I am not very familiar with the Bible
I recommend that you change that. It could be enlightening.
but the fact that medicine was wrong about the spleen being functional doesn’t meant that medicine now thinks it was put there by God.
That statement may very well be wrong, as most physicians are theists, but the comment misses the point. It was at one time widely believed that the spleen was vestigial. Vestigial organs were the model for the "junk DNA" argument. Vestigial organs have turned out to be a bad argument. The theist is much more comfortable believing that the spleen has a function, and therefore may have been deliberately designed to be there, than that it is useless junk whose only function is to prove evolution true. Naturalists* should be uncomfortable (but probably won't admit it) that one of their prize arguments has been shown to be erroneous. In the arena of real-life beliefs, naturalists* have sometimes been forced to backtrack. The ratchet does not just work one way when considering present beliefs that are thought to be backed by evidence.Paul Giem
October 14, 2013
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Upright BiPed:
I was trying to keep my email addy off the spider’s radar
I suspected as much. I just completed the book, What Darwin Got Wrong, and in my opinion it's worth the read. They raise substantive issues.Mung
October 9, 2013
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PG: I hear your concern. I suspect, however, that it is not coincidental that this focus on the threat from the right is at a time when the progressivist statist left is generally ascendant and/or militant, especially in the academy. I also find that there is a strong tendency in much of this, and in things that do not SOUND so militant, to present a one-sided litany of the sins of Christendom, without reckoning with contributions to the rise of science and modern democratic self government, or the ending of major abuses such as slavery and child labour, and oth4er good that has flowed from 1 - 2,000 years of Christian influence on our common civilisation, etc. I find myself quite concerned that almost whenever one points out such, one is angrily or snidely pounced on and denounced, with a piling on of attacks on the Christian faith, history, and people. Yes, I have little doubt that any good cause can and will be perverted by fallen men with power agendas. I think this is the real focus we should have, the dangers of out of control power. Right now, in the academy, the courts and the parliaments as well as major media houses, that is coming from the secularist progressive left and its fellow travellers on the whole. In that context, I take strong exception to the projection of a patently false conspiracy narrative that singles out design theory thinkers and supporters, willfully falsely (cogent correction is accessible) equates them to creationists and onwards to an imagined vast right wing theocratic totalitarian tyrannical treasonous push in the making. This is slander, and given the common erroneous equation right wing Christian theocratic agendas = nazism, this is blood libel, frankly. And in that context, I take serious exception to how, when this libel was presented at TSZ, it went over without a peep of protest; taken as a self evident fact. Warning bells should be going off bigtime. On the strength of that libel, millions, on their core identity [not for demonstrated toxic and destructive behaviour . . . ], were equated to "enemies of humanity," primary the alleged ringleaders [which would include men like Meyer, whose book was just unjustly panned by TSZ], and secondarily their imagined dupes. There is a clear and present danger, let us confront it as what it is -- the boiling over front burner issue. The onward possibility of a right wing authoritarian backlash, let us bear in mind but that is frankly a back burner, fringe group issue. In the case of the US, I frankly could not see a right wing totalitarian theocratic takeover save after civilisational and population collapse though bloody and massively destructive defeat that sweeps the military and policing forces off the board as a bloc, leading to small, struggling successor entities among traumatised survivors. Maybe you can come up with a credibly plausible scenario otherwise, though I find one hard to conceive in which the substantially intact USA becomes a theocratic Church of America whole. (And while I am at it, I should note that there are established churches aplenty in Northern Europe, but I do not see the sort of totalitarianism that has been so luridly painted. Russia is the closest I can imagine, but that simply underscores my collapse point, and that was a collapse of a tyranny.) But, I am not going to feed a major fallacy and scapegoating game by pointing out the danger on the right [such as Prussianism was], when the real clear and present danger is -- again, for the third major time in 100 years: Fascism, communism, now radical secularist, scientistic evolutionary materialist progressivism and its fellow travellers -- on the left. For the very excellent reason that if you want to push an agenda through across a state, the easiest way to do so is to seize control of the government's key organs or at lest the institutions that shape its thinking and deciding, and widespread ideologies that legitimise such in our time, now tend strongly to be statist and beyond internationalist/ one-world/ new world order. Yes, we must be aware that he back burner can boil over if neglected, but the front burner is boiling over right now. KFkairosfocus
October 9, 2013
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Paul You provide examples of natural explanations or theories which have been rejected but they have not been superseded by accepted supernatural explanations based on repeatable mutual observation. This is not a coincidence. It is woven into the definition of supernatural that it cannot be based on repeatable mutual observation. You will not be surprised to learn that I am not very familiar with the Bible - but the fact that medicine was wrong about the spleen being functional doesn't meant that medicine now thinks it was put there by God.Mark Frank
October 8, 2013
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KF (#172), I am in substantial agreement with most of your post. I do have one concern, though. There are a few people in the United States that in fact wish to create here what could reasonably be called a theocracy. It is true that this is not the majority, and I certainly do not see it controlling the Discovery Institute. It is also true that it is easier to see the left as dictating bondage to a false religious idea at present. My concern is that if the left tries and loses, many on the right will see this as justification to restrict religious liberty for the left and their allies, and the final status could be a poorly supported Christianity dictating again. It has happened before. The Christian church in the middle ages did some things it has had to repent of, and the newly minted Protestant churches sometimes forgot the lessons of their birth and persecuted such groups as the Anabaptists. I still think that the religious right is better than the religious left, especially when those on the right keep in mind Jesus' words that "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews. But now is my kingdom not from hence." But if the left is destroyed, especially after excesses, the right could become corrupted. The seeds are there.Paul Giem
October 8, 2013
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Mark Frank (#170), In my article, I mentioned multiple cases where the naturalistic consensus (usually self-identified as the consensus consistent with science, as opposed to those who persisted in the old superstitions) had to be abandoned in favor of a position originally supported by conservative religious belief. One can argue that the progressives were not respectful enough of ancient historical documents, and never had the actual experimental support that they thought they had. But they did think they had it, and this can be a cautionary tale for us. Just to give an example, it was argued, reasonably enough from their perspective, that Daniel could not have prophecy, that Daniel 10 and 11 were too accurate to be luck, at least until the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, and that therefore this part of Daniel must be second century BC (or BCE for the politically correct--the original authors used the original designation). They coupled this with the observation that neither Daniel nor his three friends were mentioned in the extant Babylonian records, nor for that matter, was Belshazzar. They thought it was reasonable to conclude that the whole story was a myth (tall tale, whatever your favorite label) without any basis in fact. The last part turned out not to be repeatable, as not only has Belshazzar been identified, but Daniel and his three friends (see the notes in the article). But at the time, if you had asked the skeptics, they would have told you in no uncertain terms that their view was supported by evidence. More recently, when I was in medical school, and for some time thereafter, the common belief was that the spleen was completely unnecessary. This was based on the fact that spleens could be removed from accident victims with no obvious decrease in their quality of life. This supported the idea that spleens were an evolutionary leftover, or vestigial organ. This was enough consensus that if the spleen was ever ruptured, or even had a subcapsular hematoma that could rupture, it was routinely removed. This was thought to be based on scientific data. In a certain sense it was, but incomplete data that has since been superseded. One can still argue that the ratchet operates only one way. But not only have we not established that it will eventually explain all disputed points or mysteries naturalistically, we have not even established that the current consensus will never have to be abandoned in favor of a position that is more compatible with supernaturalism.Paul Giem
October 8, 2013
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...and you are right. Ludicrous.Upright BiPed
October 7, 2013
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Mung, Very interesting stuff, thank you. When I was researching semiosis I read up on the von Frisch experiments, and I think I remember reading something akin to this as well, but I have yet to read What Darwin Got Wrong. In any case, I could have read more closely, I let RB catch me somewhat out on bounds on the bee's dance when I was on TSZ. Nothinng substantive though. Again thanks, I will make a pact to read the book. (By the way, you weren't being dense; it was me. I was trying to keep my email addy off the spider's radar by leaving off the "at" symbol and the dot com).Upright BiPed
October 7, 2013
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Upright BiPed, I'm being particularly dense at the moment, or something. I can't figure out if you're giving me an email address or telling me where to go to find one. But who cares, here's the text:
Optimal foraging strategies: the honeybees As von Frisch had taught us, at the start of a foraging period some individual honeybees go out foraging on their own ('proactive' search) and some ('reactive' searchers) stay in the hive awaiting information from returning foragers that is conveyed by the famous 'bee dance' (von Frisch, 1967). The issue to be solved was: which optimal percentage of individuals should go out and forage and which correspondingly optimal percentage should wait for information? Clearly, it can't be the case that all searchers are reactive; so the question arises whether there is an optimal percentage of proactive to reactive searcers (as a function of colony size and the availability of perishable food). Researchers (Dechaume-Moncharmont et al., 2005) combined measurements of actual foraging behaviours with a mathematical model of he energy gain by a colony as a function both of the probability of finding food sources and of the duration of their availability. The key factor is the ratio of proactive foragers to reactive foragers. Under specifiable conditions, the optimum strategy is a totally independent (proactive) foraging for all the bees, because potentially valuable information that reactive foragers may gain from successful foragers is not worth waiting for. This counter-intuitive outcome is remarkably robust over a wide range of parameters. It occurs because food sources are only available for a limited period. But their study emphasizes the importance of time constraints and the analysis of dynamics, not just steady states, to understand social insect foraging. The predictions of their model for optimal foraging, often quite coutner-intuitive, have been confirmed both in the wild and in laboratory conditions (Dechaume-Moncharmont et al., 2005). The bees appear to be 'sitting' (so to speak) at the optimum of the curve of the possible ratios of proactive versus reactive foragers in a variety of situations. Once again we want to raise some key issues for the theory of evolution: it's not possible that all sorts of foraging strategies have been tried out at random over the aeons, and that natural selection determined that only the optimal foraging bees left descendants. Maybe no neo-Darwinian wishes today to suggest this kind of crude hypothesis. A somewhat more plausible picture is that, once some change in foraging strategies has occurred, the range of further changes beyond that will have changed completely. The subset of possible further small changes around the present behavioural phenotype is constrained; as suggested by Richard Lewontin, the metaphor is rather one of finding one's way through a maze, with no possibility of wandering back to the starting point. The population, or the species as a whole, is committed to certain downstream passages. Every evolutionary change constrains to some subset, and new sub-subsets of possible further mutational effects at the next step. It's hard, at present, to to beyond such metaphors. However, the picture of a blind search winnowed by selection is utterly implausible. Multiple stepwise canalization of variants, under the kinds of physical-computational constraints suggested by Cherniak et al. must have eventually led to an inbuilt computation of the optimal ratio of proactive and reactive foragers, somehow encoded in the interaction between genes, development, and the actions of some laws of form. The question here involves multiple individualsd an their behaviour, and the solution will in due time turn out to be more complex than that of the individual canaries. Once again, nobody today really has a clue to a solution of these problems. These issues need to be raised nonetheless. We have seen examples where it seems that only physico-chemical and geometric constraints can explain the narrow canalizations that natural selection must have explored. The case of the bees, and two more that we are going to see (just a sample among many more in the recent literature) are such that, once more, the space of possible solutions to be explored seems too gigantic to have been explored by blind trial and error. The inference appears to be that a highly constrained search must have taken place. Accordingly, the role of natural selection may have been mostly just fine-tuning. Or less. Fodor, Jerry and Piattelli-Palmarini, Massimo. What Darwin Got Wrong. pp 84-86
This strategy seems to be optimal. That the strategy could have been found by blind search is ludicrous.Mung
October 7, 2013
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Alan Fox:
I prefer a God who can get it right first time.
So you're a deist then? Alan Fox:
I prefer a God who can get it right first time.
And you decide what's right? Alan Fox:
I prefer a God who can get it right first time.
I prefer to look at the evidence before deciding what sort of God I prefer. Alan Fox:
I prefer a God who can get it right first time.
Alan, have you ever studied the Bible in order to investigate the ways in which God is pictured? For example he planted a garden. For example he planted a vineyard. etc. "Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed." (I wonder in which day God planted the garden, and whether all the trees were fully formed when first planted, etc., etc.)Mung
October 7, 2013
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Alan Fox:
I am using “niche” in the ecological sense to emphasize the point that organisms can inhabit very tightly limited spaces or micro-environments. Habitats, if you will.
That's right Alan, and that's the only relevant sense of the word given the context. It's about ecology, not environment. Ecology != environment. Your first statement was pure nonsense. Now, should you decide to show back up some day, please do read What Darwin Got Wrong first so that we won't waste time in the future going back over this same ground.
Habitats, if you will.
Habitats have, well, inhabitants. Inhabitable places don't. Please do try to not engage in question-begging when it comes to defining your "niche habitats" and their occupants and explaining one in terms of the other. Good luck.Mung
October 7, 2013
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That was Friday, but Sunday was coming . . .kairosfocus
October 7, 2013
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AF: Still dodging the bouncers? You'll score no runs that way. You proposed niches as designers. You were called on it. Obviously, you have no answer or you would not be trying to change the subject so hard. As it is, while cosmological fine tuning considered in light of the logic of necessary being does get us to the point where a sovereign God is a reasonable worldview, that is independent of issues tied to the world of life. If I were simply looking at theism and phil, I would stop there, after all a fine tuning God could set up a cosmos to unfold thereafter. But that is not the problem. The real issue is that life happens to be chock full of FSCO/I and there is but one known causal process observed as capable of causing FSCO/I. Design. So, there is reason to infer design on FSCO/I as sign. And oddly, that by itself does not actually point to God as designer of life, just to design which is for good reason habitually associated with designers. As design theorists have pointed out freely since Thaxton et al in TMLO c 1984. (So there is a grand red herring to strawman loaded with ad hominems and set alight chase in the usual rhetoric emanating from NCSE et al. But those who want to poison the atmosphere we all have to breathe, have no regard for truth.) Further, niches -- a special case of differential reproductive success -- simply have no empirically warranted powers of design. That leads us to the other half of the darwinist body plan origination mechanism: chance variation. But oops, that has no observed power to originate FSCO/I either. Mechanism, proposed, fails coming out the starting gate. A mechanism adequate for minor adaptive variations, is grossly unwarranted to originate body plans requiring 10 - 100+ millions of bits of FSCO/I. Dozens of times over. Gross and unwarranted extrapolation bites the dust again. The science issue is over. Show observed cause for FSCO/I produced by blind chance or mechanical necessity, or else stand having your bluff successfully called. What about theological debates on notions regarding what is or is not beneath the dignity of God? The God I believe in warns that pride goeth before a fall, was willing to suffer betrayal at the hands of scheming manipulators, being mocked, spat upon and slapped in cruel mockery, plus a crown of thorns, on the way to hanging in shameful and distressing agony -- to be Saviour (that was Friday, but Sunday was coming . . . ) and condescended to make fresh wine for a wedding where the couple could not afford enough. Do you think such a God would give ha'penny for rhetorically loaded notions as to what is or is not beneath his dignity? It is time to drop the silly tangential talking points and address the substantial issue, the source of the FSCO/I in the genetic code and associated molecular machinery. KFkairosfocus
October 7, 2013
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Red herring, and strawman distractive from the issue you put on the table (which I responded to on what design is about), and attempting to shift the burden of warrant.
Feeble response; could do better. God creates the universe and everything else unfolds. He doesn't need to tinker because, being omniscient, he gets it right first time. Or is your Goid not omniscient and needs to add the odd touch on the tiller? I prefer a God who can get it right first time.Alan Fox
October 7, 2013
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Red herring, and strawman distractive from the issue you put on the table (which I responded to on what design is about), and attempting to shift the burden of warrant. KFkairosfocus
October 7, 2013
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By designing niches god designs organisms! Refute that, KF!Alan Fox
October 7, 2013
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AF, are you asserting that niche environments conceive goals and make plans to configure components taking advantage of the materials and forces of nature to achieve these ends, which are then effected? When was this observed to create systems or structures beyond the FSCO/I threshold of 500 bits? (Or is this yet another case of emphasising differential reproductive success that subtracts less successful varieties, rather than the chance variation that we are told creates body plans incrementally, which requires incremental writing of 10 -100+ mn bits of fresh genetic info. When was such observed?) KFkairosfocus
October 7, 2013
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Ah mung the merciless, those penetrating questions. You are indeed remorseless. I am using "niche" in the ecological sense to emphasize the point that organisms can inhabit very tightly limited spaces or micro-environments. Habitats, if you will.Alan Fox
October 7, 2013
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"I forgot to mention one other category of designer: the niche environment." - Alan Fox What on earth is a "niche environment"?Mung
October 7, 2013
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"How can you discuss a concept so utterly vague and unconstrained in any meaningful way." - Alan Fox You mean like "niche"?Mung
October 7, 2013
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Ah mung the magnificent! Please explain!Alan Fox
October 7, 2013
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Well, Alan, you don't seem to know the difference between environment and niche, so perhaps you should start there.Mung
October 7, 2013
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Alan Fox (#64) I have a hard time calling a niche a designer, but don’t think it is worth the trouble to argue the case.
Well, I’m not proselytising for the theory of evolution but niche adaptation, effectively a population of organisms being shaped by the dynamics of the particular niche it occupies, is an important element.
I have mentioned that the origin of life (at least life as we know it) requires long complex specified (good enough for life) strings of DNA. You have read the argument. Your comeback seems to be, do we have any independent evidence of such designers? Design-assisting factories? Visual sightings? The non-human designers we do know don’t seem to have enough capability to pull this off, and there is no evidence that they existed during (or before) the required time period.
There are some viruses that function with RNA rather than DNA, so I am not sure your assertion is correct. Nobody knows what the minimum requirements might be for self-sustaining self replicator are or what the first living cells for which there is evidence (stromatolites) were like in detail.
My first reply would be, what if for multiple events, a designer seems to be required? Would that not make a designer a unifying hypothesis? Supposing that for the origin of long complex DNA strings it appears that we need a designer. Then supposing that for the origin of the universe we also appear to need a designer, and furthermore that the Cambrian explosion, and the origin of complex mechanical devices like the ATP generator, the flagellar motor, etc. we appear to need a designer, and finally, for the onset of human consciousness, we appear to need an intelligent designer. Does it at some point make sense to say, maybe the objection that there is no independent evidence of such a designer isn’t such a strong one after all?
I don't follow the logic. You seem to be assuming a "designer" by default. "Designer" is an empty concept.
Once that point is conceded, I would be happy to discuss deductions about the nature of the designer from the designs left behind. But it hardly makes sense to discuss the nature of a designer with someone when he/she doesn’t even believe that there is evidence for design.
But you know absolutely nothing of the nature of the designer. How can you discuss a concept so utterly vague and unconstrained in any meaningful way. I agree it doesn't seem likely to be fruitful. You seem to want me, as apparently all ID proponents do, to subscribe to an evidence-free, imaginary entity as the default rather than, as I prefer to acknowledge, we don't yet know.Alan Fox
October 7, 2013
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Alan Fox (#64), I have a hard time calling a niche a designer, but don’t think it is worth the trouble to argue the case.
Well, I'm not proselytising for the theory of evolution but niche adaptation, effectively a population of organisms being shaped by the dynamics of the particular niche it occupies, is I have mentioned that the origin of life (at least life as we know it) requires long complex specified (good enough for life) strings of DNA. You have read the argument. Your comeback seems to be, do we have any independent evidence of such designers? Design-assisting factories? Visual sightings? The non-human designers we do know don’t seem to have enough capability to pull this off, and there is no evidence that they existed during (or before) the required time period. My first reply would be, what if for multiple events, a designer seems to be required? Would that not make a designer a unifying hypothesis? Supposing that for the origin of long complex DNA strings it appears that we need a designer. Then supposing that for the origin of the universe we also appear to need a designer, and furthermore that the Cambrian explosion, and the origin of complex mechanical devices like the ATP generator, the flagellar motor, etc. we appear to need a designer, and finally, for the onset of human consciousness, we appear to need an intelligent designer. Does it at some point make sense to say, maybe the objection that there is no independent evidence of such a designer isn’t such a strong one after all? Once that point is conceded, I would be happy to discuss deductions about the nature of the designer from the designs left behind. But it hardly makes sense to discuss the nature of a designer with someone when he/she doesn’t even believe that there is evidence for design.Alan Fox
October 7, 2013
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F/N: Heinrich Heine's all too vividly apt prophetic critique:
Christianity — and that is its greatest merit — has somewhat mitigated that brutal German love of war, but it could not destroy it. Should that subduing talisman, the cross, be shattered [--> the Swastika, visually, is a twisted, broken cross . . .], the frenzied madness of the ancient warriors, that insane Berserk rage of which Nordic bards have spoken and sung so often, will once more burst into flame. … The old stone gods will then rise from long ruins and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes, and Thor will leap to life with his giant hammer and smash the Gothic cathedrals. … … Do not smile at my advice — the advice of a dreamer who warns you against Kantians, Fichteans, and philosophers of nature. Do not smile at the visionary who anticipates the same revolution in the realm of the visible as has taken place in the spiritual. Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder. German thunder … comes rolling somewhat slowly, but … its crash … will be unlike anything before in the history of the world. … At that uproar the eagles of the air will drop dead [--> cf. air warfare, symbol of the USA], and lions in farthest Africa [--> the lion is a key symbol of Britain, cf. also the North African campaigns] will draw in their tails and slink away. … A play will be performed in Germany which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll. [Religion and Philosophy in Germany, 1831.]
This was noted on regarding prussianism in the aftermath of the rape of Belgium in WWI (IIRC, right after the burning of the library at Louvain), and it is blatantly apt in anticipation of the much more destructive second war. KFkairosfocus
October 7, 2013
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PG, 156:
You are afraid that the ID movement is a secret right-wing conspiracy, perhaps to establish a theocracy. I have some sympathy with that position. I am reasonably certain that there are some in the conservative part of the right wing that do wish to turn America into a Christian nation, which I believe is wrongheaded and will, if tried, end in disaster (for one thing, which branch of Christianity gets preference?). And I am not much happier with the libertarian wing, which sounds suspiciously like the Robber Barons of the previous century. Neither do I believe that corporations should have free rein to do whatever they want . . .
I think we need to look at some history, trends, definitions and issues. Let me try notes on points: 1 --> The US is indisputably a part of a Civilisation that until within living memory (on the strength of 1 - 2,000 years of cultural influences) self-identified as Christian Civilisation. Sometimes known as Christendom, which for all its sins also brought its blessings -- and BTW, observe the use of this theological, covenantal term in the preamble to the US Constitution. This can be checked by simply reading the contemporary voice of leaders during the Second World War, for simple illustration. In summary they viewed nations as having two linked covenants, nationhood under God and good government under God. 2 --> The predominant worldview, philosophical thought, cultural expressions and moral frame of thought were deeply influenced by ethical monotheism, in various versions of the Judaeo-Christian worldview; whether or not the people involved were personally committed and involved Christians. (And power elites often have been much less committed than the common people for various reasons connected to Jesus' remarks on the deleterious influences of wealth and power.) This frame influenced legal thought, justice, policies and political institutions -- and especially the rise of modern liberty and democracy, a capital example being the US declaration of independence, 1776, which in material parts reads:
When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . . We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions [Cf. Judges 11:27 and discussion in Locke], do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
3 --> So, I take concern with how the term "Christian" is being used (especially in an increasingly Post-Christian era subjected to deeply hostile and active de-Christianisation that tends to be highly one sided and demonising in its characterisation of the Christian faith and impacts to the point of too often being materially and even willfully misleading). It can be used in a sense of individual commitment or sectarian establishment, but it can also mean the history, influence and cultural identity as just outlined. 4 --> I am particularly concerned to note that morality is a pivotal, worldview influenced and grounded entity. And while I will point out that some moral truths are self evident -- it is wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child [and I have in mind a specific case that happened to a little boy and his family who still mourn his loss] -- the worldview grounding of morality is a very important issue for well or woe. 5 --> That is, for the general good, we need a broad community consensus on a foundational IS that adequately grounds OUGHT. And, for good reason, the only serious candidate for such is the inherently good and just Creator God. To see the difference, let me here cite Hooker in Ecclesiastical Polity [1594+] as cited by Locke c 1690 in his 2nd essay on civil Govt Ch 2 sect 5, when he set out to ground justice, liberty and good government:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
. . . and contrast Wm B Provine in his 1998 U Tenn darwin Day address:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists [--> undermines morality, leading to radical relativism]; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent [--> undermines responsible freedom, thus both mind and morality, thence liberty and self government] . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. [--> The root is the worldview, perhaps best described as evolutionary materialism] Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .
6 --> The difference is striking and brims over with consequences not to the advantage of the latter view, despite the confident declarations and one-sided litanies of the sins and perils of Christendom of advocates to the contrary. I therefore hold that our age is one of great peril to the long term viability of liberty, justice and genuine self government by constitutional democracies. 7 --> I believe per fair comment that while there is indeed a fringe that would impose some sort of theocratic tyranny (much more likely from an IslamIST perspective BTW), that is not credibly a dominant school of thought among design thinkers or even Creationists. 8 --> The sort of secularist ideologically loaded conspiracy narrative and hostile agit prop kulturkampf agenda I have highlighted and objected to here, is a far more evidently clear and present danger. Morris Cargill, late dean of Jamaican columnists [and evidently some sort of atheistical Buddhist not noted for sympathy to "Bible bashers" of the ilk of televangelists], once put this in the terms that a man looking out to his right front, would easily miss the swinging blow coming from his left and behind him, until it is too late. 9 --> Notoriously, the 1st amdt to the US Constitution forbids an established Church of the US (though it envisioned freedom of local entities to have local state churches with provision for the freedoms of dissenters, in fact that is the context of freedom of association, expression and the press in that clause). Across C19, that moved to there being no locally established churches, though general Christian influences are remarked in de Toqueville's study, B. F. Morris' 1864 study on the Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States and the 1982 Trinity decision of the Supreme Court alike. 10 --> In that overall context, the likelihood of an intact USA reverting to an oppressive establishment of a church of the USA or a status where such a church becomes de facto established is effectively nil. Much more likely is undue influence of radically anti-Christian secularist sentiment, as is manifest in many ways. 11 --> In my considered opinion, for the sort of establishment that is set up as a bogeyman to emerge, there would have to be a sharp secularist radicalisation, leading to a situation where there is civilisational collapse, say by something like a successful EMP attack by North Korea or Iran (itself a high risk venture), triggering instant reversion to C19 and death of dozens of millions and chaos. Then in pockets of survivors, some sort of church-state alliance might emerge as a backlash. 12 --> Such is not likely at all. Science fiction, not a credible trend. 13 --> As for Republicans and the like, my thoughts are, that unbridled capitalism of C19 variety is dead, killed by the rise of unions and the recognition of market failures and the need to regulate monopolies. Libertarians and quasi-anarchists are and will remain a fringe. And while the Tea Party is a significant movement, it does not strike me that it could credibly morph into the lurid caricature too often projected, absent the sort of scenarios outlined. 14 --> I find a far more credible danger is the rise of the broad influence of Saul Alinsky and his destructive neo-marxist agit prop techniques. There is a loss of respect for duties of care to accuracy, truth, fairness and basic respect that is closely linked also to the rise of a cynical secularism that undermines moral consensus, and manipulates it without a moment's hesitation. The current cynical manipulation of marriage and family in a climate that tries to equate principled questions to nazism is a sobering case in point. 15 --> As to war-mongering, Western Civilisation is indeed one of the two most aggressive civilisations in our world today. That tendency needs to be checked. But at the same time, you do indubitably confront the rise in our time of IslamIST radicalism, making a powerful move for the geostrategic pivot, the Middle East, and with metastases far beyond. 16 --> That is why I point to the willing support for Britain by colonised peoples in the 2nd World War. Not because of some perception that the UK was an ideal and perfect society, but knowing that though flawed, it was the champion of Christian Civilisation in the teeth of an impending dark age of barbarism of a type prophetically warned against by Heine in the 1830's. 17 --> The USA is in a similar position today, even as Iran edges to the point of sprinting across the nuclear red line and as Al Qaeda in Syria is doubtless busily smuggling out chemical weapons. 18 --> The world is in a mess, and it is getting worse. A sober analysis of lesser of evils and due critically aware support for sensible and timely measures is indicated. 19 --> Which brings us back full circle. One of the urgent needs is to renew the thinking that guides our civilisation, at worldviews level, at scientific level, at policy and politics levels informed by sound and fair-minded deeply informed thought. 20 --> It is in that context that I think the rise of the design inference has significant scientific merit, and should not be swarmed down under a tide of a priori materialism imposed on science and science education. KFkairosfocus
October 7, 2013
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Timaeus #164 The paper in question is this one: http://www.grisda.org/origins/55003.pdfMark Frank
October 7, 2013
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#169 Paul I don't see an example in your essay of a natural explanation being rejected by the vast majority of the experts in the field on the basis of what they believe to be repeatable observations. Which ones did you have in mind?Mark Frank
October 7, 2013
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Mark Frank (#168), I agree that it does depend on what we mean by "established". If it is on the basis of repeatable mutual observations, you might be right. But if it is based on acceptance by the vast majority of experts in the field based on what they believe to be repeatable observations, there are most definitely counterexamples to the ratchet.Paul Giem
October 7, 2013
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#163 Paul
In fact, the paper’s whole point, from one perspective, was to deny the existence of the one-way ratchet, by giving counterexamples. Do you deny the existence of every single counterexample I gave?
You provide examples of cases where there has been a supernatural explanation and a natural explanation has tried and failed to replace it. But that is not the ratchet in reverse. The ratchet in reverse would be where there is an established natural explanation and we discover  a supernatural explanation which overturns it and becomes the established explanation.  I can’t see any of those and indeed I can’t imagine what it would look like.  It depends a bit on what we mean by “established” but it means something on the lines of “accepted by the vast majority of experts in the field on the basis of repeatable mutual observations”.Mark Frank
October 6, 2013
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