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Is there a transitional in princple for these hearts?

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Yeah, only in Dawkins’ dreams.

Look at the right atrium in these four creatures from Encyclopedia Britannica:

reptile hearts

How did that right atrium evolve from one side to the other along with changes in its connection to the pulmonary artery? In the crocodile and snake the right atrium is on the right ventricle but in the lizard and turtle they are on the left ventricle.

Look at the aortas. In the lizard they are all on left ventricle, in the snake on the right ventricle, and then split for the turtles and crocodiles. How did those aortas migrate from on ventricle to the other without the transitionals being lethal?

Study the picture more and you’ll see, the Intelligent Designer seems almost to have a sense of humor in exploring the various implementations.

Darwinists will say, “we have sequence comparisons that demonstrate the similarity, therefore the transitionals had to exist”, but someone with an engineering mind would say, “so what did the transitionals look like without killing the organism?”

Is neutral evolution in play? No, because lethal changes aren’t neutral. Did natural selection cause the change? No, because natural selection would prevent the change. How about blind luck mutation. That’s possible if there are multiverses.

Wd40 accuses me of not naming one transitional that can’t exist in principle. Well above you have 4 transitionals that don’t exist in principle. Connecting these hearts via Darwinian evolution doesn’t exist even in principle. What were the functional transitionals as the atrium migrated from on ventricle to the other, or the aortas migrating from one ventricle to the other?

On could say, “Sal you have it all wrong, they all evolved from the 2-chambered heart”. 😯 Well that only makes the problem worse, not better! The above hearts are not 2-chambered. See below to understand the difficulty. But first, I note, I’m not the first to raise the issue. One brave ID student challenged his biology teacher as recounted by this atheist student:

There’s a fellow in my class who is quite religious, we both enjoy a good discussion about life. He is a Christian (who believes VERY strongly in intelligent design) while i am a Atheist.

One topic came up in class about how the heart could have evolved from 2 chambers to 3 (and i suppose a 4 chamber heart), our science teacher couldn’t answer the question to which he replied “Than why teach it?” (He often says that, gets on my nerves a bit, but I’d rather let it be).

After class i came up to him and told him I’d have a answer for him, time went on and i forgot about it, but I’d love to answer the question for him. I couldn’t seem to find anything about it in wikipedia or google, so i figure maybe a message board dedicated to science may have the answer.

http://cosmoquest.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-63125.html

Here is the difficulty. The wiring from 2-chambered (fish) to 3-chambered (some reptiles) is pretty difficult. It can’t happen in gradual steps. Not only does the 3rd chamber have to come into existence, there has to be a major simultaneous plumbing overhaul. After that, then you have to account for the different plumbing above for the non-2-chambered hearts. The transitionals would be lethal in each step.

ideacenter 2-chambered, 3-chambered hearts

No wonder the biology teacher could not describe the transitional!

PS
1. The evolution from 3-chambered to 4-chambered might not be so bad, but again, what about the wiring? If the chambers are wired differently, then the evolution via slow incremental changes would be precluded. I mentioned earlier the difficulty of evolving from 3-chambered to 4-chambered, but upon further consideration, I think the problem evolving 2-chambered to 3-chambered or the diagram above are more pointed arguments.

2. Apparently 3-chambered hearts are often viewed as having one ventricle, but the Encyclopedia Britanica describes the single ventricle as being 2 (one right and one left), but it doesn’t matter that much when considering the position of the right atrium and other plumbing.

Comments
You might want to read about lungfish hearts wile you’re at it
Your position cannot account for lungfish...Joe
July 19, 2013
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Alan Fox:
It’s the process by which multicellular organisms develop from embryos.
And your position has no idea how that came to be. IOW your position is a total wash-out.Joe
July 19, 2013
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Alan Fox:
And sunshine and rain make grass grow.
Only where there is grass. But anyway, Alan, viable means it can live outside of the womb- I didn't think I needed to mention that!
What drives viruses to reproduce
Its design. And if you think keiths is clever, then you have already lost- but we already knew that.Joe
July 19, 2013
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It's the process by which multicellular organisms develop from embryos. There's a whole new (well, quite new) field of study called evolutionary developmental biology (evo-devo for short)that looks at how the process is orchestrated. See wd400 at 3. If you are genuinely interested you may need to venture beyond this site. Necessity?Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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AF@12 What do you mean by necessity?
What do you mean by "embryology"?cantor
July 19, 2013
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Also human zygotes are not “viable”- they depend on the mothers.
And sunshine and rain make grass grow. I did not think I needed to mention this!Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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Hello, Cantor, I'm still wondering why you asked that probability question.unfortunately KeithS has been banned for being too clever by half, though I suspect he may still be reading the site and might appreciate your response. What do you mean by necessity? What drives viruses to reproduce (which is about all they do, given the chance) is an interesting question. What drives (or appears to drive) sentient beings to survive and reproduce? Is it more of the same?Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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Unguided evolution cannot account for any heart, nor can it account for embryology. Just sayin'...Joe
July 19, 2013
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Alan Fox:
How does a human zygote get from a single cell to a fully grown adult – no heart to fully functional heart – and all the while remaining viable?
By design! Also human zygotes are not "viable"- they depend on the mothers. Add "viable" to the list of words Alan Fox doesn't understand.Joe
July 19, 2013
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AF@8 How does a human zygote get from a single cell to a fully grown adult – no heart to fully functional heart – and all the while remaining viable?
Necessity!cantor
July 19, 2013
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Yes, it's a serious question. The process happens seamlessly.Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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How does a human zygote get from a single cell to a fully grown adult – no heart to fully functional heart – and all the while remaining viable?
Is this a serious question/analogy? Or perhaps I'm falling for troll bait on a facetious question.TSErik
July 19, 2013
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How does a human zygote get from a single cell to a fully grown adult - no heart to fully functional heart - and all the while remaining viable?Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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born again: "Please do tell how this word, thrown out with such confidence, explains the insuperable difficulty highlighted by Sal?" evolutionists have a terrible case of "magic wand syndrome." So whenever they get in an intellectual bind they've developed a strategy to duck and run by using catch words and phrases like "Embryology!" or "Evolution!" or "Mother Nature," which tend to mentally soothe over logical impossibilities in their own minds, so they hope these words will do the same in yours. It's their own version of "Goddiidit."vh
July 19, 2013
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Mr. Fox, "Embryology!" Please do tell how this word, thrown out with such confidence, explains the insuperable difficulty highlighted by Sal? As for Darwin, Embryology is not your friend Mr. Fox! Notes:
Haeckel's Bogus Embryo Drawings - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecH5SKxL9wk Actual Embryos - photos (Early compared to Intermediate and Late stages); http://www.ichthus.info/Evolution/PICS/Richardson-embryos.jpg There is no highly conserved embryonic stage in the vertebrates: - Richardson MK - 1997 Excerpt: Contrary to recent claims that all vertebrate embryos pass through a stage when they are the same size, we find a greater than 10-fold variation in greatest length at the tailbud stage. Our survey seriously undermines the credibility of Haeckel's drawings, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9278154 Current Textbooks Misuse Embryology to Argue for Evolution - June 2010 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/06/current_textbooks_misuse_embry035751.html The mouse is not enough - February 2011 Excerpt: Richard Behringer, who studies mammalian embryogenesis at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Texas said, “There is no ‘correct’ system. Each species is unique and uses its own tailored mechanisms to achieve development. By only studying one species (eg, the mouse), naive scientists believe that it represents all mammals.” http://www.the-scientist.com/news/display/57986/ Darwin or Design? - Paul Nelson at Saddleback Church - Nov. 2012 - ontogenetic depth (excellent update) - video Text from one of the Saddleback slides: 1. Animal body plans are built in each generation by a stepwise process, from the fertilized egg to the many cells of the adult. The earliest stages in this process determine what follows. 2. Thus, to change -- that is, to evolve -- any body plan, mutations expressed early in development must occur, be viable, and be stably transmitted to offspring. 3. But such early-acting mutations of global effect are those least likely to be tolerated by the embryo. Losses of structures are the only exception to this otherwise universal generalization about animal development and evolution. Many species will tolerate phenotypic losses if their local (environmental) circumstances are favorable. Hence island or cave fauna often lose (for instance) wings or eyes. http://www.saddleback.com/mc/m/7ece8/ Evolution by Splicing – Comparing gene transcripts from different species reveals surprising splicing diversity. – Ruth Williams – December 20, 2012 Excerpt: A major question in vertebrate evolutionary biology is “how do physical and behavioral differences arise if we have a very similar set of genes to that of the mouse, chicken, or frog?”,,, A commonly discussed mechanism was variable levels of gene expression, but both Blencowe and Chris Burge,,, found that gene expression is relatively conserved among species. On the other hand, the papers show that most alternative splicing events differ widely between even closely related species. “The alternative splicing patterns are very different even between humans and chimpanzees,” said Blencowe.,,, http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view%2FarticleNo%2F33782%2Ftitle%2FEvolution-by-Splicing%2F
bornagain77
July 19, 2013
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Yeah. Alan has it, you don't need to morph one adult form into another. You have to find developmental pathways can be tweaked in one direction or another. Question like this one don't make much sense in that case: "How did those aortas migrate from on ventricle to the other without the transitionals being lethal?". You might want to read about lungfish hearts wile you're at itwd400
July 19, 2013
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Embryology!Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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The philosopher, Mary Midgley, nailed (or rather 'pinned') poor old Dawkins in a particularly withering put-down, which seems to have absolutely incensed his 'groupies'. 'She wrote that she had previously "not attended to Dawkins, thinking it unnecessary to "break a butterfly upon a wheel.' No wonder Kipling said that the female of the species is more deadly than the male!Axel
July 19, 2013
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