Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

80 megabytes seems too small to specify a human

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Dan Graur
dan graur

and Larry Moran argue that most of the human genome of 3.2 giga base pairs is junk. I will appeal to engineering intuition and say these guys are awfully premature in their pronouncements since their estimates would imply that a mere 80 megabytes would be enough specify not only an adult human but all the developmental forms that have to be implemented along the way from conception to adulthood.

Where did I get the 80 megabyte number? The human genome is about 3.2 giga base pairs. Evolutionnews reports Graur is arguing 5% to 15% of the human genome is functional. For simplicity I’ll suggest the mid range figure from Graur as 10%. That means then 3.2 billion * 10% = 320 million base pairs. Since each nucleotide from one strand associated with a base pair has 2 Shannon bits, that’s 320 x 2 = 640 million bits. There are 8 bits in a byte so 640,000,000 / 8 = 80 megabytes.

From the BioMumbers website, human cells are reported to have on the order of 1 to 10 billion physical proteins from a supposed set of only 20,000 coding genes. If a human has 1 billion physical proteins per cell and there are 200 trillion cells in a grown human, that implies coordination of 200 billion trillion proteins. 😯

Do you think 80 megabytes could provide enough information to assemble and manage not only 200 billion trillion proteins, but all the developmental forms along the way? If you were tasked to build something as fearfully and wonderfully made as a human with its complex systems (nervous, immune, digestive, optical, auditory, endocrine, respiratory, smell sensing, vascular, reproductive, skeletal, urinary, lymphatic, muscular, etc.), would you feel comfortable having only 80 megabytes to store all the construction information for an adult plus all the developmental forms? Not me, and not a lot reasonable people either.

In fact, 3.2 giga bases (or 800 megabytes) would even seem too small. My computer RAM has more than 800 megabytes, and even that doesn’t seem like it would be enough. For those reasons, I think DNA cannot possibly contain all the heritable information that is important to humans. For DNA to work for a human, it must presuppose information rich parts in the rest of the cell. I think there is a lot of heritable information outside of the DNA, and we’re just not doing the information accounting properly. Epigenetic information needs to be accounted for.

Without ribosomes, spliceosomes and host of other pre-existing machines, the DNA would be useless, so I suppose there is information implicit outside the genome which had to be specified even though it is not explicit. For example a compressed ZIP file presupposes a decoder to decompress it. That decoder has a certain amount of information associated with it.

If I were a designer and had only 800 megabytes of DNA to specify something as complex as a human, I would think I’d have to store lots of assembly instructions outside the DNA and implement some of the manufacturing process instructions outside of the DNA. If some of the manufacturing process instructions are implicitly stored outside of DNA, then that is yet more information we have to account for, and if we include that, I think it strains credulity that a mindless process could construct something as complex as a human.

Added to this, the human has moderate self-healing capabilities. How can you construct a system as complex as a healthy human with the added ability to self heal certain parts? I think Dan Gruar’s 80 megabyte argument is on shaky ground, unless he wants to argue for large amounts of epigenetic information. But arguing for large amounts of epigenetic information doesn’t exactly help his crusade against functionality.

He is quite confident he is right because he places his faith in evolutionism more than in reasonable engineering intuitions.

NOTES

1. photo credits Evolution News

Comments
"incredulity is not an argument" Does this include the incredulity of atheists towards God? Quote: "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" - Frank Turek case in point: HOW BIOLOGISTS LOST SIGHT OF THE MEANING OF LIFE — AND ARE NOW STARING IT IN THE FACE - Stephen L. Talbott - May 2012 Excerpt: “If you think air traffic controllers have a tough job guiding planes into major airports or across a crowded continental airspace, consider the challenge facing a human cell trying to position its proteins”. A given cell, he notes, may make more than 10,000 different proteins, and typically contains more than a billion protein molecules at any one time. “Somehow a cell must get all its proteins to their correct destinations — and equally important, keep these molecules out of the wrong places”. And further: “It’s almost as if every mRNA [an intermediate between a gene and a corresponding protein] coming out of the nucleus knows where it’s going” (Travis 2011),,, Further, the billion protein molecules in a cell are virtually all capable of interacting with each other to one degree or another; they are subject to getting misfolded or “all balled up with one another”; they are critically modified through the attachment or detachment of molecular subunits, often in rapid order and with immediate implications for changing function; they can wind up inside large-capacity “transport vehicles” headed in any number of directions; they can be sidetracked by diverse processes of degradation and recycling... and so on without end. Yet the coherence of the whole is maintained. The question is indeed, then, “How does the organism meaningfully dispose of all its molecules, getting them to the right places and into the right interactions?” The same sort of question can be asked of cells, for example in the growing embryo, where literal streams of cells are flowing to their appointed places, differentiating themselves into different types as they go, and adjusting themselves to all sorts of unpredictable perturbations — even to the degree of responding appropriately when a lab technician excises a clump of them from one location in a young embryo and puts them in another, where they may proceed to adapt themselves in an entirely different and proper way to the new environment. It is hard to quibble with the immediate impression that form (which is more idea-like than thing-like) is primary, and the material particulars subsidiary. Two systems biologists, one from the Max Delbrück Center for Molecular Medicine in Germany and one from Harvard Medical School, frame one part of the problem this way: "The human body is formed by trillions of individual cells. These cells work together with remarkable precision, first forming an adult organism out of a single fertilized egg, and then keeping the organism alive and functional for decades. To achieve this precision, one would assume that each individual cell reacts in a reliable, reproducible way to a given input, faithfully executing the required task. However, a growing number of studies investigating cellular processes on the level of single cells revealed large heterogeneity even among genetically identical cells of the same cell type. (Loewer and Lahav 2011)",,, And then we hear that all this meaningful activity is, somehow, meaningless or a product of meaninglessness. This, I believe, is the real issue troubling the majority of the American populace when they are asked about their belief in evolution. They see one thing and then are told, more or less directly, that they are really seeing its denial. Yet no one has ever explained to them how you get meaning from meaninglessness — a difficult enough task once you realize that we cannot articulate any knowledge of the world at all except in the language of meaning.,,, http://www.netfuture.org/2012/May1012_184.html#2bornagain77
June 22, 2014
June
06
Jun
22
22
2014
06:11 AM
6
06
11
AM
PDT
Considering all of the necessary integrated parts of an adult human plus all the necessary integrated parts of a human in all the developmental stages, do you think 80 megabytes is enough to provide the assembly and operating instructions?
I sincerely doubt that the DNA contains anything that could be considered assembly instructions and/or operating instructions. Much of the biological development is just chemistry. The DNA supplements that. But biological systems seem to be such that much of the assembly and operating instructions are in the natural chemistry used so do not need to be in the DNA. Consider an analogy. You want to drive from Boston to New York. You do not have to pre-plan when to change lanes, when to slow down, when to speed up. While actually driving, your adaptive behavior can take care of most of that. You only need to pre-plan for the points where you might make a mistake (such as take the wrong exit). And even if you do make a mistake, your adaptive behavior might be able to recover from that. I see it the situation for biological development as somewhat similar. The developing organism is chock full of adaptive processes that can manage much of the process. What's in the DNA only needs to give suitable nudges at various points.Neil Rickert
June 22, 2014
June
06
Jun
22
22
2014
05:29 AM
5
05
29
AM
PDT
Your incredulity is not an argument.Roy
June 22, 2014
June
06
Jun
22
22
2014
05:09 AM
5
05
09
AM
PDT
Most comments in the thread https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/a-third-way-of-evolution/ are about a few specific biological mechanisms that have not been fully described yet. Please, note that most comments in the indicated thread deal with a narrow area of biology, mainly the cell fate determination mechanisms, though some comments may refer to other biological systems too. Hence most comments have to do with a subset of the entire biological enchilada. How much 'code' would it be required in order to simulate their functionality in a 4D dynamic model system implemented in a computer? Perhaps this hasn't been done, because a complete description isn't available yet? How difficult would it be to develop a comprehensive 4D simulation system before one has the entire picture well described in the programming tech specs? Would it make sense to develop an incomplete simulation system that could be incrementally adjusted and enhanced as more information about the actual functioning of the real system becomes available later?Dionisio
June 22, 2014
June
06
Jun
22
22
2014
05:00 AM
5
05
00
AM
PDT
Why is making billions of copies of the same protein that much more information heavy than just one? It would take a lot fewer than 60 megabytes of code to jury-rig Nethack into creating 200 billion trillion copies of the Mazes of Menace, but I don't think you would consider that a comparable feat. And anyway, 60 megabytes is a lot of information, while 200 billion trillion molecules is only about a third of a mole.PeterL
June 22, 2014
June
06
Jun
22
22
2014
03:26 AM
3
03
26
AM
PDT
" ... you have reading comprehension issues. " haha, this is the same condition almost every dirt worshipper I've ever met suffers from.humbled
June 22, 2014
June
06
Jun
22
22
2014
02:28 AM
2
02
28
AM
PDT
Here is a description of only one among many of the molecular machines that need assembly instructions. Ribosome Assembly.
Ribosome Assembly I Ribosome assembly takes place in the nucleolus. The assembly of the 40S subunit (exemplified in the illustration) starts as the giant primary transcript is being produced. During this period initial folding and snoRNA-dependent cleavage of the primary transcript take place. Other snoRNAs direct modification of specific nucleotides in the rRNA. Primary rRNA binding ribosomal proteins associate to the rRNA and the folding of the rRNA proceeds. The next set of ribosomal proteins, i.e. proteins which do not bind directly to rRNA, join the rRNA-protein complex thereby forming the 40S ribosomal subunit. For production of the 60S subunit the assembly process also has to be coordinated with the production of 5S rRNA. The whole ribosome synthesis and assembly process is an intricate interplay between the nucleolus, the nucleus and the cytoplasm. Ribosome Assembly 1. tRNAs are transcribed in the nucleoplasm by RNA polymerase III. The primary transcript is processed to the mature tRNA and transported to the cytoplasm. In the cytoplasm the tRNAs are coupled to their cognate amino acids. amino acid activation» tRNAprocessing» 2. Pre-mRNAs, containing the sequences coding for the ribosomal proteins, are transcribed by RNA polymerase II in the nucleoplasm. The pre-mRNAs are processed (see splicing) and transported (see transport) as mRNP-particles to the cytoplasm where they are picked up by the ribosomes initiation and translated elongation into ribosomal proteins. The mature ribosomal proteins are then transported (see transport) to the nucleolus. 3. The ribosomal RNAs (except 5S rRNA) are transcribed in the nucleolus as one giant precursor RNA by RNA polymerase I. The precursor is processed (see rRNA processing) to 18S,5.8S and 28S rRNA. 5S rRNA is transcribed in the nucleoplasm by RNA polymerase III and transported to the nucleolus. The rRNAs are folded and associate with ribosomal proteins to form the 40S and 60S ribosomal subunits. The subunits are then transported from the nucleolus to the cytoplasm.
Its certainly won't be done with something as trivial as Acaratia_Bogarts number program. He seems to think his ability to write a 2 line program to make trillions of numbers somehow demonstrates that it doesn't take much specification to make a ribosome, much less an entire human that hosts in the ball park of 3 million ribosomes per cell, and many other molecular machines as well. To manufacture so many components with such complexity involves a lot of process control instructions. It cannot be trivial as a matter of principle, but Acaratia_Bogart wants to give the impression his 2 line program some how shows a human can be specified by 80 megabytes of information.scordova
June 22, 2014
June
06
Jun
22
22
2014
01:39 AM
1
01
39
AM
PDT
I didn't say 200 billion trillion unique proteins, I said physical proteins. Don't misrepresent me, or you have reading comprehension issues. Visit the BioNumbers website if you don't understand what I meant rather than attribute to me things I didn't say. You'll see the figures ranging on the order of 1 to 10 billion approximately based on the HeLa cells.
I can write code to make 200 billion trillion numbers fro a set of 20000 unique numbers with just a couple of lines of code
So what? Can you describe a sufficiently detailed manufacturing process with 80 megabytes that will construct something comparably complex (as in number of interdependent parts and systems) to a human through all its developmental stages. Your couple of lines of code won't do that, and neither does it prove 80 megabytes can specify a human. scordova
June 22, 2014
June
06
Jun
22
22
2014
01:12 AM
1
01
12
AM
PDT
"From the BioMumbers website, human cells are reported to have on the order of 1 to 10 billion physical proteins from a supposed set of only 20,000 coding genes. If a human has 1 billion physical proteins per cell and there are 200 trillion cells in a grown human, that implies coordination of 200 billion trillion proteins. " This must be the new math. If their are 20,000 coding genes, there are 20,000 unique proteins, not 200 billion trillion. I can write code to make 200 billion trillion numbers fro a set of 20000 unique numbers with just a couple of lines of code Acartia_bogart
June 22, 2014
June
06
Jun
22
22
2014
12:51 AM
12
12
51
AM
PDT
Neil, Considering all of the necessary integrated parts of an adult human plus all the necessary integrated parts of a human in all the developmental stages, do you think 80 megabytes is enough to provide the assembly and operating instructions? Assembly isn't just making proteins from genes, its putting all the parts together, in the right X,Y,Z positions in a cell, in the right X,Y,Z positions in the body and at the right time. The amount of communication that must be exchanged between 200 trillion cells in order to make a distributed computation to accomplish this boggles the mind. 80 megabytes seems insufficient, but if you think it can be pulled off with 80 megabytes, that is your choice, but I'd wager that we'll find out there is a lot of information not only in the DNA but elsewhere in an organism. I'd wager that the non-translated by transcribed RNA is critical to human life. I might explain why in another post. But really, would you wager 80 megabytes is enough storage space to contain the necessary instructions not only to build proteins but to locate them in the right place and at the right time. We are talking 200 billion trillion physical instances of proteins just for an adult, and that doesn't include the other human forms at earlier stages of development. The level of integration and specificity of the parts is enormous. 80 megs seems insufficient. But if you believe it, that's up to you.scordova
June 21, 2014
June
06
Jun
21
21
2014
10:30 PM
10
10
30
PM
PDT
I will appeal to engineering intuition and say these guys are awfully premature in their pronouncements since their estimates would imply that a mere 80 megabytes would be enough specify not only an adult human but all the developmental forms that have to be implemented along the way from conception to adulthood.
This is surely mistaken. The genes do not need to specify the final adult form, nor do they need to specify all of the intermediate development forms. Instead, they need to specify a development program. Two identical twins are not actually identical. They started with the same genes, but finished up different. That illustrates the point that genes do not have to specify the final form.Neil Rickert
June 21, 2014
June
06
Jun
21
21
2014
10:12 PM
10
10
12
PM
PDT
1 2

Leave a Reply