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Logic & First Principles, 20: What is law?

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A good first step to understanding the ongoing failure of our civilisation is to contrast the common, positive law view of law summarised by Wikipedia (as a handy point of reference):

Law is a system of rules that are created and enforced through social or governmental institutions to regulate behavior. It has been defined both as “the Science of Justice” and “the Art of Justice”. Law is a system that regulates and ensures that individuals or a community adhere to the will of the state. State-enforced laws can be made by a collective legislature or by a single legislator, resulting in statutes, by the executive through decrees and regulations, or established by judges through precedent, normally in common law jurisdictions . . .

. . . with Cicero’s summary of received classical views in de Legibus, c. 50 BC:

“Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” . . . . They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones. They think, too, that the Greek name for law (NOMOS), which is derived from NEMO, to distribute, implies the very nature of the thing, that is, to give every man his due. [–> this implies a definition of justice as the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities] For my part, I imagine that the moral essence of law is better expressed by its Latin name, (lex), which conveys the idea of selection or discrimination. According to the Greeks, therefore, the name of law implies an equitable distribution of goods: according to the Romans, an equitable discrimination between good and evil.
The true definition of law should, however, include both these characteristics. And this being granted as an almost self–evident proposition, the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.

Obviously, we cannot tell truth by the calendar or clock, but by what is sound. The first of these approaches is largely about an exercise in state power, justice is almost a footnote, a disputable matter of definition. The latter, we can summarise as highest reason regarding duty and justice (i.e. the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities) for the individual and the community. Where, the first known lawful duties of the rational, responsible individual are to truth, right reason, prudence, sound conscience, fairness and justice.

That is, the civil peace of justice must be central, not the raw exercise of rule making power. Thus, we see how law and primary, generally known duties of moral character are inextricably intertwined, tracing to our morally governed nature. Where also, due force is that which defends the civil peace of justice with proportionate means, enforcing what is lawful. Legitimate power is protective and regulated by rational and responsible principles of justice, it is not primary.

Why is such a distinction important?

Simple: unless sound reasoning i/l/o responsible, rational duty to justice is central (and so also the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities), we are establishing a system of power imposition under colour of law. That is, law becomes whatever some centre of power finds it advantageous and convenient to impose and back by force. This then reduces law to precisely what Plato warned against in describing the radical materialists of his day in The Laws, Bk X c. 360 BC:

[The materialistic sophists hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might . . . . these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others . . .

For, if the root of nature is an arbitrary, evolving material process, there is no basis for ought, save power. The door to nihilism lies open.

The famous second paragraph of the 1776 US Declaration of Independence brings the matter to a focus:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Here, we see that law is traced to the Just Creator, the source of reality who has made man as a rational, responsible, morally governed creature. One who holds “unalienable Rights,” binding moral claims to be respected due to one’s inherent dignity and status as a human being made in God’s image. As a social creature who thrives best in community (and, community founded on sound family), that leads to the need for rules of justice and good order, thus government. The just powers of government are circumscribed by general consent informed by the in-built laws of our evident nature. Where, patently, this is not “right-wing, Christofascist, theocratic tyranny” — let us lay that needless, slanderous strawman to rest.

In that context, prudence acts to address government gone sufficiently bad that resists remonstrance and calls for reformation:

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

In short, there comes a point where governments for cause lose their legitimacy: they are not merely incompetent but have become enemies of the civil peace of justice through abuse and usurpation. At that point, acting through existing or emerging representatives, the people have a collective right to replace government that has gone bad. This is of course a main function of the general election, a peaceful means of replacement.

This then allows us to refocus our understanding of law, that it is indeed a system of rules that are enforced and backed by sanctions. However, such must reflect also, the prime directive of justice, thus the innate law of our morally governed nature. Law that starts with duties to truth, right reason, prudence, sound conscience, fairness/justice etc. Absent such integral safeguards, power and will to power acting under colour of law will pervert justice and reduce citizens to serfs.

(And one obvious case is that it is no duty of the state to impose that evolutionary materialistic scientism is the de facto established ideology and religion-substitute, able to use force to block any challenge, including in institutions of science and those of education. Truth and right reason backed by the prudence that recognises how often scientific schools of thought change, would urge restraint. Dover et al, are failures of just law. Similarly, the acts under colour of law that have enabled the ongoing holocaust of our living posterity in the womb are manifestly lawless. The state’s powers are not the final judges of justice, they are accountable before the bar of truth, right reason and the right.)

To restore our civilisation to soundness, we have to soundly reform our understanding of law. A tough challenge, given the dominance of evolutionary materialistic scientism, and one has the impression that time is beginning to run out: Mene, mene, tekel, parsin. END

PS: I should pause to draw out a few notes on the implications of moral government of our inner life and linked behaviour. For, undeniably, we know that we have duties to the truth, right reason, prudence, good and sound conscience, fairness and justice.

If one would deny or dismiss this, let him or her ponder why s/he urges us to correct our errors of thought. In short, demonstrably undeniable.

From this, we see that insofar as law is rational and responsible (again hard to deny) it cannot be severed from the moral domain. In short the notion that we cannot legislate morality is fallacious. It is better to say that absent a critical mass of support, laws on the books are unenforceable.

We must then address the IS-OUGHT gap, in a post-Hume world, where only at the root of reality can such be bridged, on pain of ungrounded ought. That is, reasoning IS, thus IS, then poof-magic, OUGHT. Oughtness must be at the root of reality or else it is nowhere (other than as a grand delusion).

We thus need to hold that the root of reality is such that it inherently is good and thus grounds ought as reflecting that ultimate goodness. From this, law in seeking to support and defend the civil peace of justice must recognise such a root of reality or it will fail, opening the door to nihilism and the chaos of might and manipulation make ‘right,’ ‘truth,’ rights,’ ‘knowledge,’ ‘logic [i.e. right reason],’ ‘justice,’ and law etc. Which absurdity, should sound ever so familiar today.

The bill to be filled is a world source capable of grounding ought through being essentially good. After centuries of debate, there is precisely one serious candidate, the God of ethical theism. That is, the inherently good and utterly wise God, a necessary and maximaly great being. One, who is worthy of our loyalty and of our reasonable and responsible service by doing the good that accords with our evident nature.

You need not agree with this, but only to face the challenge that you too need to provide an adequate alternative that does not fall into ungrounded ought and/or grand delusion: _____________ Such is far harder to do than one may at first imagine.

PPS: Similarly, we may refresh our minds on how we may now freely set out to frame how that natural moral law may be drawn out, by using a first principles approach.

Let me promote some thoughts from 97 below, on |drawing out a framework for natural law, which on this focus is both more personal and more encompassing than statutory codes, judicial rulings, administrative regulations with force of law, contracts etc. Yes, it is a rational, self-evident principles based vision of law as shaping lives, families and civilisations that is regrettably now largely unfamiliar in a world that has now been reshaped by secularist forces and linked legal positivism, In effect, the forgotten vision of law.

It is worth the while to pause, and to remind ourselves of how that Bible-thumping theocratic Christofascist fundy [–> Pagan Stoic] Cicero summarised the received view, c. 50 BC; namely, how law is:

“highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” . . . .[such that] the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones . . . . the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice. “

This of course directly ties to how, undeniably, our responsible rational freedom is under the moral government (thus the law) of inherently known duty to truth, to right reason, to sound conscience, to prudence, to fairness, charity/benevolence and justice, etc. This then allows us to elaborate a worldviews level framework for law that then frames an agenda for rebuilding a sound culture. As in|, for instance:

1] The first self evident moral truth is that we are inescapably under the government of ought.

(This is manifest in even an objector’s implication in the questions, challenges and arguments that s/he would advance, that we are in the wrong and there is something to be avoided about that. That is, even the objector inadvertently implies that we OUGHT to do, think, aim for and say the right. Not even the hyperskeptical objector can escape this truth. Patent absurdity on attempted denial.)

2] Second self evident truth, we discern that some things are right and others are wrong by a compass-sense we term conscience which guides our thought. (Again, objectors depend on a sense of guilt/ urgency to be right not wrong on our part to give their points persuasive force. See what would be undermined should conscience be deadened or dismissed universally? Sawing off the branch on which we all must sit.)

3] Third, were this sense of conscience and linked sense that we can make responsibly free, rational decisions to be a delusion, we would at once descend into a status of grand delusion in which there is no good ground for confidence in our self-understanding. (That is, we look at an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds: once such a principle of grand global delusion is injected, there is no firewall so the perception of level one delusion is subject to the same issue, and this level two perception too, ad infinitum; landing in patent absurdity.)

4] Fourth, we are objectively under obligation of OUGHT. That is, despite any particular person’s (or group’s or august council’s or majority’s) wishes or claims to the contrary, such obligation credibly holds to moral certainty. That is, it would be irresponsible, foolish and unwise for us to act and try to live otherwise.

5] Fifth, this cumulative framework of moral government under OUGHT is the basis for the manifest core principles of the natural moral law under which we find ourselves obligated to the right the good, the true etc. Where also, patently, we struggle to live up to what we acknowledge or imply we ought to do.

6] Sixth, this means we live in a world in which being under core, generally understood principles of natural moral law is coherent and factually adequate, thus calling for a world-understanding in which OUGHT is properly grounded at root level. (Thus worldviews that can soundly meet this test are the only truly viable ones. If a worldview does not have in it a world-root level IS that can simultaneously ground OUGHT — so that IS and OUGHT are inextricably fused at that level, it fails decisively.)

7] Seventh, in light of the above, even the weakest and most voiceless of us thus has a natural right to life, liberty, the pursuit of fulfillment of one’s sense of what s/he ought to be (“happiness”). This includes the young child, the unborn and more. (We see here the concept that rights are binding moral expectations of others to provide respect in regards to us because of our inherent status as human beings, members of the community of valuable neighbours. Where also who is my neighbour was forever answered by the parable of the Good Samaritan. Likewise, there can be no right to demand of or compel my neighbour that s/he upholds me and enables me in the wrong — including under false colour of law through lawfare; usurping the sword of justice to impose a ruthless policy agenda in fundamental breach of that civil peace which must ever pivot on manifest justice. To justly claim a right, one must first be in the right.)

8] Eighth, like unto the seventh, such may only be circumscribed or limited for good cause. Such as, reciprocal obligation to cherish and not harm neighbour of equal, equally valuable nature in community and in the wider world of the common brotherhood of humanity.

9] Ninth, this is the context in which it becomes self evidently wrong, wicked and evil to kidnap, sexually torture and murder a young child or the like as concrete cases in point that show that might and/or manipulation do not make ‘right,’ ‘truth,’ ‘worth,’ ‘justice,’ ‘fairness,’ ‘law’ etc. That is, anything that expresses or implies the nihilist’s credo is morally absurd.

(Thus, we see here our sense of justice for the weak, inarticulate and defenseless; starkly manifest in the difference between luring and catching a fish to become lunch and luring and despoiling then destroying a child. Such a child has not the wit nor words to plead his case, nor the strength to defeat his attacker nor yet the speed to outrun him. Where, that some take pity on the fish and will go out of their way to eat only vegetables is itself further eloquent testimony on the point. [Notice, there is no “people for the ethical treatment of fruit, root starches, grains and vegetables” movement.]

10] Tenth, this entails that in civil society with government, justice is a principal task of legitimate government. In short, nihilistic will to power untempered by the primacy of justice is its own refutation in any type of state. Where, justice is the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities. (In Aristotle’s terms as cited by Hooker: “because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like .”) Thus also,

11] Eleventh, that government is and ought to be subject to audit, reformation and if necessary replacement should it fail sufficiently badly and incorrigibly.

(NB: This is a requisite of accountability for justice, and the suggestion or implication of some views across time, that government can reasonably be unaccountable to the governed, is its own refutation, reflecting — again — nihilistic will to power; which is automatically absurd. This truth involves the issue that finite, fallible, morally struggling men acting as civil authorities in the face of changing times and situations as well as in the face of the tendency of power to corrupt, need to be open to remonstrance and reformation — or if they become resistant to reasonable appeal, there must be effective means of replacement. Hence, the principle that the general election is an insitutionalised regular solemn assembly of the people for audit and reform or if needs be replacement of government gone bad. But this is by no means an endorsement of the notion that a manipulated mob bent on a march of folly has a right to do as it pleases.)

12] Twelfth, the attempt to deny or dismiss such a general framework of moral governance invariably lands in shipwreck of incoherence and absurdity. As, has been seen in outline. But that does not mean that the attempt is not going to be made, so there is a mutual obligation of frank and fair correction and restraint of evil.

Comments
x At this point, I again point out that commenting is a privilege, not a right. I have no intent to keep on monitoring and trying to bring back a thread to a focal topic in the face of persistent side tracking and what seems to be obsessive behaviour. Enough has been said to substantiate the framework of the OP, on law. Enough has been said on side tracks to provide correctives and to establish that we are not seeing serious discussion, by and large from those caught up in aspects of various radical secularist agendas. I have no need to go into yet another loop. I will re-open comments on threads I own when I am satisfied that the message has got through. KF, Owner xkairosfocus
May 18, 2019
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On a totally unrelated topic, does anyone know what happened to ET? I don’t miss his pointless and repetitive comments, but I do hope that nothing bad has happened to himBrother Brian
May 18, 2019
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Eugen
This is not an argument: if you can have something then I should have that same.
No, if you have something, and you have no rational reason for denying me the opportunity of the same, then I should not be denied that possibility. Not guarantee, but possibility. What has not been provided is a rational argument why a same sex couple should be denied the possibility of marriage. All I have heard are things like inability to have children, incomparable sex organs, higher rates of STDs and the like. All of which some opposite sex couples have, and we don’t deny them marriage. In short, the arguments against SSM are little more than religious arguments being masked as something more legitimate. But since churches are not forced to preside over a SSM, and the institution of marriage is not owned by religion, there is no valid reason for a blanket ban on SSM.
It’s as nonsensical as inter species “marriage” . This is just simple reasoning.
If you want to marry a sheep, and the sheep can demonstrate that it is doing so with informed consent, understanding the legal responsibilities and obligations, I would fully support it. But until that time comes, your analogy is farcical.Brother Brian
May 18, 2019
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Eugen,
This is not an argument: if you can have something then I should have that same.
We have the 14th amendment to our constitution, which pretty much says just that (in the context of legal protection from the state).daveS
May 18, 2019
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Brother Brian,
I find it interesting that the initial push for same sex marriage came from countries who’s societies were Christian in origin.
That is interesting food for thought. Edit: If I were to try and "explain" why this happened, perhaps I would start with Jesus washing the feet of his disciples.daveS
May 18, 2019
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Dave, Brian This is not an argument: if you can have something then I should have that same. Else you're bigot. For example you are a short person but you see a tall basketball player and you demand to be tall, too. You can't, nature decided that you are not fit for basketball game. My limited understanding is that it's seems hard to apply natural law to homosexual "marriage" because it's simply unnatural! It's as nonsensical as inter species "marriage" . This is just simple reasoning.Eugen
May 18, 2019
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Eugen
Are you guys trolling because I don’t see any arguments
We have made plenty of arguments. They centre along the lines of their being no valid reason to deny a loving committed couple from enjoying the protections, pleasures and responsibilities that the rest of us do. It is the counter arguments that are extremely weak, unless the people who want to prevent SSM also want to prevent elderly couples from marrying, impotent couples, sterile couples or couples who have no intention to have children.Brother Brian
May 18, 2019
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DaveS
Looks like ~28 countries.
And it is the first Asian country to do so. I find it interesting that the initial push for same sex marriage came from countries who’s societies were Christian in origin. Either Christianity did a poor job at getting their anti-homosexual message out, or they were very good at getting the “judge not lest you be judged” message out. I take heart in the fact that an increasing number of Christian denominations are acknowledging the validity of same sex marriage.Brother Brian
May 18, 2019
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KF,
It is quite clear from the course of the thread that you have little interest in the focal topic for this thread, which is of civilisation level importance. The insistent tangentiality above is itself an indicator of what is at stake.
I am very interested in the thread topic as it applies in specific contexts, especially those where there is conflict. That's why I ask how all this applies to same-sex marriage. You have offered various rationales for denying same-sex couples the freedom to marry. I have found none to be persuasive. Scary agendas, Russian radicals, rates of STD's, the connection between marriage and reproduction, etc.
PS: I note the triumphalism of announcing that 25 – 30 jurisdictions out of 200+ have imposed homosexualisation of marriage under colour of law (which opens up a wedge of much more to follow through power of precedent and the importance of will to power nihilism implicit in legal positivism).
Those on "my side" would likely agree that it's too early to declare victory, but we can celebrate what we see as positive steps. Unfortunately Brunei, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Iran (pretty much all Muslim countries) are still living in a brutal dark age.daveS
May 18, 2019
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Dear Invisible Remnant, Kindly, note the chain of argument in the PS to the OP, on drawing out a framework for natural law, which on this focus is both more personal and more encompassing than statutory codes, judicial rulings, administrative regulations with force of law, contracts etc. Yes, it is a rational, self-evident principles based vision of law as shaping lives, families and civilisations that is regrettably now largely unfamiliar in a world that has now been reshaped by secularist forces and linked legal positivism, In effect, the forgotten vision of law. It is worth the while to pause, and to remind ourselves of how that Bible-thumping theocratic Christofascist fundy [--> Pagan Stoic] Cicero summarised the received view, c. 50 BC; namely, how law is:
“highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” . . . .[such that] the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones . . . . the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice. “
This of course directly ties to how, undeniably, our responsible rational freedom is under the moral government (thus the law) of inherently known duty to truth, to right reason, to sound conscience, to prudence, to fairness, charity/benevolence and justice, etc. This then allows us to elaborate a worldviews level framework for law that then frames an agenda for rebuilding a sound culture. As in:
1] The first self evident moral truth is that we are inescapably under the government of ought. (This is manifest in even an objector’s implication in the questions, challenges and arguments that s/he would advance, that we are in the wrong and there is something to be avoided about that. That is, even the objector inadvertently implies that we OUGHT to do, think, aim for and say the right. Not even the hyperskeptical objector can escape this truth. Patent absurdity on attempted denial.) 2] Second self evident truth, we discern that some things are right and others are wrong by a compass-sense we term conscience which guides our thought. (Again, objectors depend on a sense of guilt/ urgency to be right not wrong on our part to give their points persuasive force. See what would be undermined should conscience be deadened or dismissed universally? Sawing off the branch on which we all must sit.) 3] Third, were this sense of conscience and linked sense that we can make responsibly free, rational decisions to be a delusion, we would at once descend into a status of grand delusion in which there is no good ground for confidence in our self-understanding. (That is, we look at an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds: once such a principle of grand global delusion is injected, there is no firewall so the perception of level one delusion is subject to the same issue, and this level two perception too, ad infinitum; landing in patent absurdity.) 4] Fourth, we are objectively under obligation of OUGHT. That is, despite any particular person’s (or group’s or august council’s or majority’s) wishes or claims to the contrary, such obligation credibly holds to moral certainty. That is, it would be irresponsible, foolish and unwise for us to act and try to live otherwise. 5] Fifth, this cumulative framework of moral government under OUGHT is the basis for the manifest core principles of the natural moral law under which we find ourselves obligated to the right the good, the true etc. Where also, patently, we struggle to live up to what we acknowledge or imply we ought to do. 6] Sixth, this means we live in a world in which being under core, generally understood principles of natural moral law is coherent and factually adequate, thus calling for a world-understanding in which OUGHT is properly grounded at root level. (Thus worldviews that can soundly meet this test are the only truly viable ones. If a worldview does not have in it a world-root level IS that can simultaneously ground OUGHT — so that IS and OUGHT are inextricably fused at that level, it fails decisively.) 7] Seventh, in light of the above, even the weakest and most voiceless of us thus has a natural right to life, liberty, the pursuit of fulfillment of one’s sense of what s/he ought to be (“happiness”). This includes the young child, the unborn and more. (We see here the concept that rights are binding moral expectations of others to provide respect in regards to us because of our inherent status as human beings, members of the community of valuable neighbours. Where also who is my neighbour was forever answered by the parable of the Good Samaritan. Likewise, there can be no right to demand of or compel my neighbour that s/he upholds me and enables me in the wrong — including under false colour of law through lawfare; usurping the sword of justice to impose a ruthless policy agenda in fundamental breach of that civil peace which must ever pivot on manifest justice. To justly claim a right, one must first be in the right.) 8] Eighth, like unto the seventh, such may only be circumscribed or limited for good cause. Such as, reciprocal obligation to cherish and not harm neighbour of equal, equally valuable nature in community and in the wider world of the common brotherhood of humanity. 9] Ninth, this is the context in which it becomes self evidently wrong, wicked and evil to kidnap, sexually torture and murder a young child or the like as concrete cases in point that show that might and/or manipulation do not make ‘right,’ ‘truth,’ ‘worth,’ ‘justice,’ ‘fairness,’ ‘law’ etc. That is, anything that expresses or implies the nihilist’s credo is morally absurd. (Thus, we see here our sense of justice for the weak, inarticulate and defenseless; starkly manifest in the difference between luring and catching a fish to become lunch and luring and despoiling then destroying a child. Such a child has not the wit nor words to plead his case, nor the strength to defeat his attacker nor yet the speed to outrun him. Where, that some take pity on the fish and will go out of their way to eat only vegetables is itself further eloquent testimony on the point. [Notice, there is no “people for the ethical treatment of fruit, root starches, grains and vegetables” movement.] 10] Tenth, this entails that in civil society with government, justice is a principal task of legitimate government. In short, nihilistic will to power untempered by the primacy of justice is its own refutation in any type of state. Where, justice is the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities. (In Aristotle’s terms as cited by Hooker: “because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like .”) Thus also, 11] Eleventh, that government is and ought to be subject to audit, reformation and if necessary replacement should it fail sufficiently badly and incorrigibly. (NB: This is a requisite of accountability for justice, and the suggestion or implication of some views across time, that government can reasonably be unaccountable to the governed, is its own refutation, reflecting — again — nihilistic will to power; which is automatically absurd. This truth involves the issue that finite, fallible, morally struggling men acting as civil authorities in the face of changing times and situations as well as in the face of the tendency of power to corrupt, need to be open to remonstrance and reformation — or if they become resistant to reasonable appeal, there must be effective means of replacement. Hence, the principle that the general election is an insitutionalised regular solemn assembly of the people for audit and reform or if needs be replacement of government gone bad. But this is by no means an endorsement of the notion that a manipulated mob bent on a march of folly has a right to do as it pleases.) 12] Twelfth, the attempt to deny or dismiss such a general framework of moral governance invariably lands in shipwreck of incoherence and absurdity. As, has been seen in outline. But that does not mean that the attempt is not going to be made, so there is a mutual obligation of frank and fair correction and restraint of evil.
Let us now turn to how our civilisation could turn back from the brink, i/l/o the above. This, we shall ponder onward. KF PS: I'll bet that those out there who were trained as lawyers have by and large not heard of such a way to conceive of law, or else were taught in such a way as to frame ideas such as the above for dismissal. Likely, with a significant helping of the cultural marxist oppression thesis so often used to discredit our inheritance as a civilisation. The, the imperfect past equals a past with nothing to teach us thesis fails. Fails, as it is a counsel to dismiss the lessons of sound history that were bought with blood and tears . . . including, of course the many bloody failures of radicalism since 1789. Those who refuse to learn the sobering lessons of sound history doom themselves to pay the same coin of blood and tears over and over and over again.kairosfocus
May 18, 2019
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Dear Invisible Remnant, I find some remarks on a recent book on scriptural approaches to natural law (which complement the sorts of insights Cicero et al put on the table) are illuminating on how our thought-life is being undermined:
Natural law theory is controversial today because it presumes that there is a stable ‘human nature’ that is subject to a ‘law.’ How do we know that ‘human nature’ is stable and not ever-evolving? How can we expect ‘law’ not to constrict human freedom and potential? Furthermore if there is a ‘law,’ there must be a lawgiver . . .
The former is one of the many destructive consequences of the evolutionary materialistic picture: there is no stable cluster of core characteristics that form a basis for common identity of human beings, which of course historically opened the door to social darwinism, to racist dismissal and marginalisation of allegedly inferiour breeds, and to eugenics etc to eliminate the perceived weaker breeds. That history is already a warning, and when we multiply by the inherent amorality [it has no world-root level IS capable of bearing the weight of OUGHT], it is unsurprising that such destructive trends continue under new guises -- a root will keep on pushing up shoots. Which, these days, seem to take ever more bizarre forms that manifest a root of utter irrationality. Similarly, of course, duties to truth, right reason, soundness, prudence, conscience, justice and the like are radically undermined: there are no genuine duties, just delusions tossed up by accidents of cumulative survival of the fittest. (And yes, Rosenberg and Crick or Gessen et al only openly admit the truth, letting the cat out of the bag . . . the problem is inherent to the worldview.) We can see that if our civilisation is to turn back from a crumbling cliff's edge (and I am pessimistic), we need a radically different, sound framework. A start point is a counter to the undermining of our distinct identity as human beings. We are recognisably of a common kind of thing, rational, responsible, significantly free, morally governed creatures -- we have an intelligible, distinct common core identity pointing to a shared nature amidst undeniable diversity: A is A i/l/o its core characteristics . . . here, including conscience attested, morally governed rationality. In turn, that moral government starts with the credibility of the life of the mind: we are undeniably regulated by known duties to truth, right reason, sound conscience, prudence, justice etc. Even those who object to moral government are forced to implicitly appeal to our knowledge of such, in order for their arguments to have any convincing, persuasive power. And if they cynically seek to manipulate what to them is little more than a delusion, not only is that cynicism a red warning flag but the projection of grand, pervasive delusion radically undermines rationality, including their own. That is, the line of thought that rejects such moral government of our intellectual life is self-referential and self-falsifying. It is self-defeating. As the PS to the studiously ignored OP points out:
undeniably, we know that we have duties to the truth, right reason, prudence, good and sound conscience, fairness and justice. If one would deny or dismiss this, let him or her ponder why s/he urges us to correct our errors of thought. In short, demonstrably undeniable. From this, we see that insofar as law is rational and responsible (again hard to deny) it cannot be severed from the moral domain. In short the notion that we cannot legislate morality is fallacious. It is better to say that absent a critical mass of support, laws on the books are unenforceable. We must then address the IS-OUGHT gap, in a post-Hume world, where only at the root of reality can such be bridged, on pain of ungrounded ought. That is, reasoning IS, thus IS, then poof-magic, OUGHT. Oughtness must be at the root of reality or else it is nowhere (other than as a grand delusion). We thus need to hold that the root of reality is such that it inherently is good and thus grounds ought as reflecting that ultimate goodness. From this, law in seeking to support and defend the civil peace of justice must recognise such a root of reality or it will fail, opening the door to nihilism and the chaos of might and manipulation make ‘right,’ ‘truth,’ rights,’ ‘knowledge,’ ‘logic [i.e. right reason],’ ‘justice,’ and law etc. Which absurdity, should sound ever so familiar today. The bill to be filled is a world source capable of grounding ought through being essentially good. After centuries of debate, there is precisely one serious candidate, the God of ethical theism. That is, the inherently good and utterly wise God, a necessary and maximaly great being. One, who is worthy of our loyalty and of our reasonable and responsible service by doing the good that accords with our evident nature. You need not agree with this, but only to face the challenge that you too need to provide an adequate alternative that does not fall into ungrounded ought and/or grand delusion: _____________ Such is far harder to do than one may at first imagine.
In this context, of course law restricts "freedom" and "potential," as manifestly, such can be abused to create ruinous chaos. Therefore, there is a place for regulatory government that guides our freedom to the good and helps to restrain the forces of chaos. And, by first setting this in the context of our minds, we are able to see the positive functionality of such moral government more clearly than when our minds are clouded and our consciences are benumbed. And yes, in a world of the guilty secret, that does point to a counsel of scripture:
Eph 4:17 So this I say, and solemnly affirm together with the Lord [as in His presence], that you must no longer live as the [unbelieving] Gentiles live, in the futility of their minds [and in the foolishness and emptiness of their souls], 18 for their [moral] understanding is darkened and their reasoning is clouded; [they are] alienated and self-banished from the life of God [with no share in it; this is] because of the [willful] ignorance and spiritual blindness that is [deep-seated] within them, because of the hardness and insensitivity of their heart. 19 And they, [the ungodly in their spiritual apathy], having become callous and unfeeling, have given themselves over [as prey] to unbridled sensuality, eagerly craving the practice of every kind of impurity [that their desires may demand]. 20 But you did not learn Christ in this way! [AMP]
Sobering words, a warning that it is unsurprising to see clouded reasoning and warped moral thought when cultures turn their backs on the core, manifest truths that point to the root of moral government. Let us turn back from the brink of ruin. KFkairosfocus
May 17, 2019
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DS & BB: It is quite clear from the course of the thread that you have little interest in the focal topic for this thread, which is of civilisation level importance. The insistent tangentiality above is itself an indicator of what is at stake. Further, fair comment on issues you have raised will show little or no actual cogent substantial engagement, rather than assertions and talking points tied to dismissiveness. That is itself instructive, in an inadvertent way, as it illustrates how our thinking has been led in a thought-world dominated by a guilty secret. It is clear that our known, undeniable first intellectual duties to truth, right reason, prudence, sound conscience, justice etc are being flouted, and the onward implication that through such duties we live in a world that has in its roots adequate grounding for such moral government starting with our thought-life is also being flouted -- a second guilty secret. None of this portends good for our civilisation. That also tells us much about the consequences of radical secular humanism (with underlying self-referentially incoherent and irretrievably amoral evolutionary materialistic scientism), linked cultural marxism (with its oppression thesis used as a battering ram to discredit the heritage of our civilisation . . . including implication that all the radicalisms effectively mutually reinforce) and legal positivism opening the door to will to power nihilistic lawfare. So, when we see marriage and family in the cross-hairs and "freedom" abused as a battering ram to dismiss issues of inherent, manifest laws of our morally governed nature -- which is precisely where we can recognise that we are responsible, rational, significantly free, morally governed creatures with mutual duties of care -- as well as linked personal identity and moral nurture, social stability, law and the state, some serious alarm bells start to ring. The net effect of these is to show, precisely, the central importance of a sound understanding of law as:
"highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” . . . .[such that] the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones . . . . the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice. "
We neglect this 2000+ year old insight at our peril. KF PS: I note the triumphalism of announcing that 25 - 30 jurisdictions out of 200+ have imposed homosexualisation of marriage under colour of law (which opens up a wedge of much more to follow through power of precedent and the importance of will to power nihilism implicit in legal positivism). In answer, I again highlight the way marriage is built in in our nature as creatures with two complementary sexes:
“Marriage is the union of a man and a woman [--> complementarity of the two opposite, genetically stamped sexes factor] who make a permanent and exclusive commitment [--> stability factor] to each other of the type that is naturally (inherently) fulfilled by bearing and rearing children together [--> reproduction unit factor, tied to stability requisites of child nurture]. The spouses seal (consummate) and renew their union by conjugal acts—acts that constitute the behavioral part of the process of reproduction, thus uniting them as a reproductive unit [--> act of marital union factor, also properly defining sexual intercourse in the teeth of positivist distortions]. Marriage is valuable in itself, but its inherent orientation to the bearing and rearing of children contributes to its distinctive structure, including norms of monogamy and fidelity [--> child nurture, social stability and personal maturation/virtue factors]. This link to the welfare of children also helps explain why marriage is important to the common good [--> community stability factor, including productively channelling, civilising and taming young men] and why the state should recognize and regulate it.”[--> Legitimate state interest vs positivist subversion; note also, RECOGNISE, not constitute, marriage is antecedent to state, civilisation and society] [“What is Marriage?,” Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, Vol 34 No. 1, p. 246.]
That is the substantial built-in framework that transcends whatever may be done under colour of law.kairosfocus
May 17, 2019
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Eugen,
I hope happy couples go to Brunei for honeymoon
I don't think you really mean that. Anyway, apparently they have come to their senses and will not be stoning gay people to death.daveS
May 17, 2019
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I hope happy couples go to Brunei for honeymoon Are you guys trolling because I don't see any argumentsEugen
May 17, 2019
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Brother Brian, Looks like ~28 countries.daveS
May 17, 2019
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Taiwan just legalized same sex marriage. How many is that now? https://www.google.ca/amp/s/beta.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/taiwan-becomes-first-country-in-asia-to-legalize-same-sex-marriage/2019/05/17/d60e511e-7893-11e9-bd25-c989555e7766_story.html%3foutputType=ampBrother Brian
May 17, 2019
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F/N: Food for thought from SEP on Natural Law approaches:
Natural law theory accepts that law can be considered and spoken of both as a sheer social fact of power and practice, and as a set of reasons for action that can be and often are sound as reasons and therefore normative [--> duties to truth, right reason, prudence, justice etc pop up here] for reasonable people addressed by them. This dual character of positive law [--> laws as explicitly issued by a competent authority] is presupposed by the well-known slogan “Unjust laws are not laws.” Properly understood, that slogan indicates why—unless based upon some skeptical denial that there are any sound reasons for action (a denial which can be set aside because defending it is self-refuting)—positivist [--> note the distinction from positive law] opposition to natural law theories is pointless, that is redundant: what positivists characteristically see as realities to be affirmed are already affirmed by natural law theory, and what they characteristically see as illusions to be dispelled are no part of natural law theory. But because legal theories conceived of by their authors as positivist are, by and large, dominant in the milieux of those likely to be reading this entry, it seems appropriate to refer to those theories along the way, in the hope of overcoming misunderstandings that (while stimulating certain clarifications and improvements of natural law theorizing) have generated some needless debate. The point made in the preceding paragraph is made in another way by Orrego (Orrego 2007). When the accounts of adjudication and judicial reasoning proposed by contemporary mainstream legal theories are added to those theories' accounts of (the concept of) law, it becomes clear that, at the level of propositions (as distinct from names, words and formulations), those theories share (though not always without self-contradiction) the principal theses about law which are proposed by classic natural law theorists such as Aquinas: (i) that law establishes reasons for action, (ii) that its rules can and presumptively (defeasibly) do create moral obligations that did not as such exist prior to the positing of the rules, (iii) that that kind of legal-moral obligation is defeated by a posited rule's serious immorality (injustice), and (iv) that judicial and other paradigmatically legal deliberation, reasoning and judgment includes, concurrently, both natural (moral) law and (purely) positive law. Orrego's point seems to be confirmed by, e.g., the adjacent entry on Legal Positivism (Green 2003). Contemporary “positivist” theories are, it seems, natural law theories, distinguished from the main body of natural law theory (a) by their denial that the theory of law (as distinct from the theory or theories of adjudication, judicial duty, citizens' allegiance, etc.) necessarily or most appropriately tackles the related matters just listed, and accordingly (b) by the incompleteness of their theories of law, that is, the absence from them (and usually, though not always, from their accounts of those related matters) of systematic critical attention to the foundations of the moral and other normative claims that they make or presuppose. In short: a natural law theory of (the nature of) law seeks both to give an account of the facticity of law and to answer questions that remain central to understanding law. As listed by Green 2003 (having observed that “No legal philosopher can be only a legal positivist”), these further questions (which “legal positivism does not aspire to answer”) are: What kinds of things could possibly count as merits of law? What role should law play in adjudication? What claim has law on our obedience? What laws should we have? And should we have law at all?
We need to do some serious thinking on the underpinnings of law and today's dominant trends of thought (which are positivist) as first steps to sound reformation. Of course, if it is not too late. KFkairosfocus
May 17, 2019
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BB. Thank you for your question. (#80) Free, Full, Fruitful Free - I agree that a same-sex relationship can be freely entered. Free meaning there are no significant outside forces or coercions. Unfortunately, too many relationships are based on coercion. Full - To fully give yourself to a relationship means that you give all of you for life to one person. You also have to receive fully all that the other person has. Concerning your question - male on male sex or female on female sex can never involve that total sharing of each others sexual organs and sexuality. There seems to be an intrinsic compatibility of the male and female sex organs. The sex organs are designed (oh that horrible word again) to fit together and make babies. Deliberate ejaculation outside of a vagina is just an attempt to have sexual pleasure without the possible responsibility for children - you are denying your partner the full gift of your full sexuality. Pleasuring the vagina with no intention of receiving ejaculation fits those same conditions. Fruitful - This is the primarily (but not totally) openness to children. Obviously, a couple who by their nature could never have children without the intervention of a third person (or technology) can never qualify. Note - Involving the third person (or technology) also weakens the Fullness of the exclusive nature of the relationship. You may find it interesting that the Church considers impotence an impediment for a man to be married. The elderly situation is just understanding that we all grow old. The Church would point to the situation of Abraham and Sarah that age itself is not an impediment. Accidental sterility does not change the underlying nature of the man or woman. Intentional sterility, if the person is repentant, also does not change the underlying nature of the man or woman. I just want to emphasize that it was homosexual people who said marriage is the "gold standard". To be a gold standard it must somehow be above other relationships. I ask you to provide a definition of marriage that covers all the people you want covered while being specific enough not to include any and all relationships. Thank You and God BlessGCS
May 17, 2019
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DS, the agenda is working on the ground. We can already see the pernicious effects of playing word magic games under colour of law with marriage. (I add: this may be a live example. Ideologically related, i/l/o cultural marxist oppression narratives . . . and yes, this last must-read to believe is from The Nation Magazine, as is say, this bit of new-speak coupled to turnabout accusation linked to obvious lawfare intent. All of that and much more, in the context of the guilty secret. See also in that light, here, here, here, here and here.) KFkairosfocus
May 17, 2019
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KF,
The inconvenient, cat out of the bag, from the horse’s mouth comments by Gessen (which expose the anti-civilisational agenda), were similarly brushed aside:
I did brush it aside because you have apparently attempted to associate this person's statements with the community of same-sex marriage proponents at large (sort of like how you seem to hold all atheists accountable for the statements of Alex Rosenberg. Search for "horse's mouth" on UD and you will find a number of matches, including this one). In the case of the Gessen quotes, this certainly looks like an attempt to deny freedoms to a group via guilt by association.daveS
May 17, 2019
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Dear Invisible Remnant, Recalling, This thread, at core is about an underlying legal philosophy that sets up the nihilistic will to power abuse of law, legal positivism. A philosophy, which includes how those with judicial or legislative power now routinely imagine that such power gives them opportunity to impose their wishes and agendas under colour of law. That's a wake-up call that it is obvious that those determined to side-track this thread (and to promote agendas in the teeth of correction and calls to refocus they insist on ignoring) do not hear. A pity. So, let us remind ourselves:
WEST'S: positivists conclude that as long as a written law has been duly enacted by a branch of government, it must be deemed valid and binding, regardless of whether it offends anyone’s sense of right and wrong . . . COLLINS: positivism as a theory of law, it may be summarized by saying that law may have any content. The law is what is laid down and that is an end to it. It is directly contrary to natural law theories, which tend to have some touchstone that a man-made law has to meet for its validity. Positivism faces serious problems in that it opens the way to the use of law as a means of social engineering.
The radical secularist hostility to God, to religious heritage and to morality, often dressed up in "neutrality" or "science," is manifest. The apostasy of our civilisation, in the teeth of a guilty secret, counts . . . and opens the door to nihilistic, will to power driven chaos. As we are beginning to see all around. It is therefore unsurprising to see a clear resistance by distractions in this thread and others that point out how our civilisation is losing its way and is headed down a path to ruin. It seems it is only going over a cliff's edge and having a hard impact with rock bottom that will wake many up. But then, that is nothing new, it is a major point of the parable of the rebellious prodigal son who demanded his inheritance even before his father passed away and proceeded to squander his inheritance on his pleasures in utter disregard for prudence. He only woke up to reality when he was reduced to feeding pigs. From these things, we can see how a philosophy has been promoted that robs law of its connexion to justice, squandering the inheritance of our civilisation. Further, it turns attention away from the longstanding observation that we are morally governed creatures, manifesting a higher in-built law (attested to by sound conscience) that starts with our own known duties of care to truth -- accurate description of reality, to right reason, to prudence, to justice and more. Where of course once such are discarded and conscience is benumbed, mind and our common community life alike will be en-darkened in the name of progress and enlightenment. By contrast, We may put on the table a recognition of the in-built natural law (starting with truth, right reason, prudence, conscience, justice etc) and develop a framework for law that is based on the civil peace of justice. As Cicero noted c. 50 BC. For, law, first and foremost, is:
highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” . . . .[such that] the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones . . . . the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.
A test, we are blatantly failing today. However, we can turn around, refocussing:
Legal systems have a function— to secure justice. Grossly unjust laws . . . are not really laws at all, but a perversion of law or mere violence. As St. Augustine put it, lex injustia non est lex. Aquinas’s way of stating this point: positive law has as its purpose the common good of the community. Any positive law which conflicts/is inconsistent with either natural law or divine law is not really law at all. Hence, not only is there no moral obligation to obey it, but there is no legal obligation to obey it, either. Augustine, Aquinas, and Martin Luther King are supporters of this view. Lon Fuller argued there is some necessary overlap between legality and justice, because it’s impossible to have a legal system without fidelity to the rule of law and formal justice. (Fuller would probably have cited Iraq under Saddam Hussein as a good example of a society that violated the rule of law so much that it really had no genuine legal system at all). But Fuller does not go as far as Augustine or Aquinas, because he admits that a society can have a genuine legal system that satisfies the demands of formal justice (“like cases must be treated alike”) yet still have particular laws that are unjust.
In such a mixed context, the typical case, we may embark on sound reform through laws premised on restoring good order and making corrections towards sound justice. Where, "if competent authorities can be seen as having such duties, failure on their part to do due diligence to apply wisdom towards good order is negligence, a form of injustice." This outlines a genuine way forward, exposing the worldviews root, its consequence in the legal ideology of positivism which opens the door to clever but ultimately ruinously nihilistic, chaotic imposition under colour of law, and showing how we may restore soundness. Of course, in a sense this is addressed to Nock's invisible remnant, with an eye to the way forward after we hit rock bottom, having heedlessly squandered much good that was our birthright. What of the repeatedly asserted claims about the novelty, that marriage is a legal fiction, a standard form contract that somehow for thousands of years was denied men or women wishing to marry others of the same sex and the like? It should be obvious, first, how this reflects the pattern of imposition and manipulation to enable it that we have highlighted, and it is further obvious that it is being pushed heedless of the consequences of destabilising a keystone component of a stable society. But, when a tide of ideology rises and rages, God help those who try to steer the ship of state aright, or who counsel prudence. The course of this thread, is demonstration enough, but let us review as a lesson in how we discard moral government starting with conscience-guided minds at peril. I have pointed out. Others have pointed out, but in the heady rush of an ideology, prudence and correction will be brushed aside. For instance, I have already noted above, only to see how such is studiously ignored, the better to push talking points:
given what a marriage and a family inherently are, marriage is only possible between a man and a woman. Marriage is not a standard form contract of the fill in the blanks variety that any two individuals can fill in, absent some dubious religious theocratic discrimination or the like. We are dealing with the core institution of stable society and with predictable destabilising consequences of abusing the colour of law to try to push into it what is inherently not of the same nature. Already, we can see that individual identity based on being born as male or female is being similarly destabilised and much more. You can grab the word marriage, paste it on to a contract form, seize state power and decree that Adam and Steve, or Eve and Mary, or Sue and Fido or Sam and his robot are “married,” but such acts under colour of law are by the nature of the case simply unable to be what marriage is as to its core nature and identity, which are what drive its foundational social functionality, significance and effects. Of course, this is just one of several such damaging exercises that are now in progress. No magic of words and power games with positivist approaches to law or cultural marxist oppression narratives are going to change what is in the end something that is a law of our nature. All that will result from the attempt is chaos and damage to our civilisation. Likely with terrible, lingering consequences; similar to the now failed socialist experiments of the past century.
The inconvenient, cat out of the bag, from the horse's mouth comments by Gessen (which expose the anti-civilisational agenda), were similarly brushed aside:
Ms. Gessen’s comments on the subject seem to contradict the pro-gay-marriage party lines. Gessen shared her views on the subject and very specifically stated; “Gay marriage is a lie.” “Fighting for gay marriage generally involves lying about what we’re going to do with marriage when we get there.” “It’s a no-brainer that the institution of marriage should not exist.” (This statement is met with very loud applause.) As mentioned above, Gessen also talked about redefining the traditional family. This may have something to do with the fact that she has “three children with five parents”: “I don’t see why they (her children) shouldn’t have five parents legally. I don’t see why we should choose two of those parents and make them a sanctioned couple.” Ms Gessen is frank, and we must thank her for that. Now, we cannot say that we do not know or did not have access to knowing. Which means, we have to think, soberly discuss then do something principled and effective about this.
In short, we here see the power of big lie agit prop when backed by powerful forces. Precisely the same factor that drives legal positivism: when courts of justice and legislatures charged to do justice pass will to power under false colour of law and are trumpeted by media houses and education systems betraying duty to truth, many will predictably be misled. That is how marches of folly get started. And once enough momentum is there, it will be very hard to turn back even as the deluded community heads over the cliff. The lessons of sound history were paid for with blood and tears. Those who neglect or deny or dismiss such, doom themselves to pay the same coin over and over and over again. For shame! KFkairosfocus
May 17, 2019
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Hazel
Not all homosexuality involves penises: have you all forgotten about women?
My wife won’t let me. :) But seriously, and I say this as a man, I don’t understand why all women aren’t lesbians. Who would want to sleep with a guy?Brother Brian
May 16, 2019
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Not all homosexuality involves penises: have you all forgotten about women?hazel
May 16, 2019
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[reproductive organ name deleted]. We can always count on BB for a frank statement about what he thinks we think!
It’s OK to say penis. And let’s be honest, KF has already talked about being repulsed by homosexuality. Which involves the use of penises.
I would say in the US’ past, we had greater moral unity than we do now.
When was this? During slavery? Before women got the vote? When blacks were being lynched? When interracial marriage was still illegal in many states? When homosexual acts were grounds for jail time? When people lost their jobs for being homosexual? I concede your point. There were times in the past when there was more moral unity than now.
What on earth is it? [national vision]
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Some [cultural] diversity is good; too much, not so good.
For who?Brother Brian
May 16, 2019
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P.S. Don't forget that I'm part of the "diversity" that some people say they value so much! If I changed my mind on issues, the amount of cultural diversity in the nation would go down, and we certainly can't have that! 8-)EDTA
May 16, 2019
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BB @ uh, I forgot the number, >But you are willing to deny marriage to couples simply because you are disgusted by where they put their [reproductive organ name deleted]. We can always count on BB for a frank statement about what he thinks we think! >But, to be fair, has there ever been a time when a civilization has had moral unity? I would say in the US' past, we had greater moral unity than we do now. Never completely unanimous of course, but today we have a somewhat stable core of traditional morals, and a Left that keeps moving further and further away from that core. That seems like increasing disunity to me. >If there was no political diversity/division, would there be any need for a democracy? Again, some division can lead to multiple solutions to choose from. Too much and there's trouble. >And I believe that we do have a national vision. What on earth is it? Social democracy and liberalism/progressivism? Not terribly inspiring to a large chunk of the population. >I’m not sure what you mean by [cultural continuity]. I mean the ability of a culture to pass its good aspects reliably to successive generations. In the absence of this, culture can go in literally any direction, and rapidly. How do you reliably know where the sexual revolution (for instance) will stop? >Are you referring to cultural homogeneity? No. >I would argue that a civilization is more vibrant with a diversity of cultures. Seems like the classic progressive position. You might not be aware that sociological research has shown that an increase in cultural diversity eventually results in a decrease in interpersonal trust, which is essential for a smoothly operating society. Some diversity is good; too much, not so good. But all of this will make no sense to some...as further evidence of the growing divide.EDTA
May 16, 2019
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GCS
The highest standard of marriage is found in the Catholic understanding. ... Three words explain marriage: Free, Full, and Fruitful.
And explain to me how a same sex couple can’t have a marriage that is free, full and fruitful. And before you raise the red herring that they can’t be fruitful because they can’t have children of their own, please start advocating for the banning of marriage between elderly couples, sterile couples and couples who are physically incapable of having sex.Brother Brian
May 16, 2019
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BB (#72) - It all depends on the definition of marriage. One argument by homosexuals in Vermont to go from civil unions to gay marriage was that marriage was the "Gold Standard". If even they admit marriage was a standard, nay even the highest standard, then marriage must mean something more than just a contract. The highest standard of marriage is found in the Catholic understanding. Marriage is a permanent union of one man and one woman. Three words explain marriage: Free, Full, and Fruitful. Fulfill all three and you have the Gold Standard. Only the Catholic definition of marriage fills these three requirements. Any other relationship violates one or more of these three qualities. Interestingly these three qualities can be used to judge sexual activity. Again, only the Catholic sexual morality meets these three requirements. Every other sexual relationship violates one or more of the qualities. If we need to protect other relationships then do that, but do not pretend they are the same as marriage. Thank You and God BlessGCS
May 16, 2019
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Dave Resistance comes from most rudimentary understanding of nature, common sense , simple logical reasoning and easily triggered gag reflex. Like I said pendulum may swing the other way as people realize they don't have to submit to continuous brainwashing and bullying from liberal activists, media and politicians.Eugen
May 16, 2019
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Eugen,
I’m not sure why BB and DS are steering this thread into discussion about homosexual marriage. What’s there to say about it other than it’s unnatural, nonsensical and it’s around ONLY because of sexual revolution program being pushed on people for decades.
It always seems to come up in these threads about the collapse of civilization. I sort of get the resistance to it from some communities, but fortunately it seems people are adjusting to it quickly. I predict that in a few decades, people will look back on the time when gay marriage was not legal (in the US, Canada, etc) much like we look back on "white" and "colored" drinking fountains.daveS
May 16, 2019
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