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Society, Rights, and Self-Identification

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Does a man have the right to identify himself as a woman and enter their locker rooms and bathrooms, demanding equal rights for their self-identification?  Does a person have the right to identify herself as a native American and, when filling out forms for employment or college, indicate her ethnicity as such, even though she is not?   Should the force of law support such self-identifications which contradict the physical facts and insist that society accommodate any such self-identifications?

Where is the line between socially protected self-identification in conflict with physical facts and delusion?  Can physically unrelated people identify themselves as family and represent themselves as such on legal forms?  Can an adult self-identify as a child and thus obligate his parents to take care of him his entire life?

There are physical realities that exist which are not transformed by how one chooses to conceptualize themselves or others and which are not changed by altering clothes or body parts. Men are not women, and women are not men, no matter how much anyone believes that one can become the other.  Even if the whole world calls a woman a man, it is not so.  That’s just the physical reality.  No amount of self or public identification as such makes Elizabeth Warren a Native American or Shaun King black or Bruce Jenner a woman.

A person can dress up, obtain surgeries and call themselves whatever they like; that does not obligate the rest of society to indulge their particular conceptualization of themselves.  I don’t have a problem with people doing any of that to themselves and for their own personal reasons, but surely the rest of us should not be forced by law or even compelled by PC obligation to indulge their self-conceptualization.

Do people have the right to self-identify in contradiction to the physical facts and expect the force of law to make society accept and conform to their concept of themselves?  If I refuse to indulge your particular conceptualization of yourself, or as a business refuse to indulge, am I being a “hater”? Am I being “intolerant”?  Is it my job to protect the feelings and promote a sense of “equality” and “enfranchisement” for those that self-identify in conflict with physical reality?

Further, won’t the social and legal demand to ignore physical realities in favor of protecting the feelings of such groups, and in fact make it a crime to state those physical realities or act in accordance with them, most certainly cause problematic, even dire unintended consequences in the future? A population trained to ignore reality in favor of sentimental, feel-good, virtue signalling memes can be manipulated to do virtually anything given the right narrative-messaging.

Comments
Ziggy said:
It starts with equal rights for women, then legalizing homosexuality, then same sex marriage, closely followed by gender neutral bathrooms and then, as inevitable as night follow day, the rounding up and murder of millions of Jews. Do you not think that your absurdly rediculous hyperbole might be just a little offensive to the millions who actually suffered under Hitler?
It would be absurd if that was the point KF was making. I believe he was making a comparison about the quick rise of fascist power and how it was achieved in Germany which followed the same pattern we are witnessing here with regards to the fracturing, polarization and internal strife deliberately generated in order to pave the way for the comfort and security of a totalitarian regime, enforced by their own version of social justice warriors and BLM activists, the Sturmabteilung, also called the Brownshirts. From Wiki:
It played a significant role in Adolf Hitler's rise to power in the 1920s and 1930s. Their primary purposes were providing protection for Nazi rallies and assemblies, disrupting the meetings of opposing parties, (....) and intimidating Slavic and Romani citizens, unionists, and Jews – for instance, during the Nazi boycott of Jewish businesses. ... The future SA developed by organizing and formalizing the groups of ex-soldiers and beer hall brawlers who were to protect gatherings of the Nazi Party from disruptions from Social Democrats (SPD) and Communists (KPD) and to disrupt meetings of the other political parties.
Sound familiar? Conservative speakers, groups and organizations are facing similar intimidation tactics and physical threat in universities around the US and at public rallies or events. Have you read about BLM planning to "shut down" the upcoming Republican Convention? Have you heard about conservtive Ben Shapiro's events being harassed and blocked by leftist militants? Have you read about the violence and intimidation tactics that forced Trump to cancel his Chicago rally out of safety concerns for supporters? If you read the reddit accounts of people who were there, you get the real story that the news media did not report. Here are a couple of accounts:
“Because you were in there, I don’t blame you for not knowing, but it was a matter of life and death. I was listening to the police scanner throughout. Two people were shot in one of three separate shooting incidents. The cops were chasing a white dodge ram with temp tags, I’m unsure if they were able to stop the vehicle. There were multiple assaults happening everywhere. It came over the scanner that a group of black protestors were targeting and assaulting white Trump supporters. Rioters were stealing Trump signs from supporters and ripping them up. They were throwing bottles and rocks at police. They managed to climb the walls of the parking garage and up on the third floor were hitting cars with bats and hammers smashing in windows. Two police officers were taken to the hospital with serious injuries. They were blocking highways and side streets trying to prevent people from leaving so they could attack them. People were getting violent with police and when they would arrest someone other people would come over and attack the police. Two hispanic males shot at a firetruck. A black male was seen walking around with a handgun, description was white shirt black pants red shoes. It was insane. Even crazier was the fact that the media wasn’t reporting on any of it. You know they have scanners and the entire time I’m hearing the people on the news saying that it was a peaceful protest.”
“I feel that I experienced today, for the first time in my life, true totalitarianism and authoritarianism, expressed laterally from citizen to citizen, in order to silence opinions from being shared. This enforcement was shared through sheer numbers and intimidation, and in a few cases, violence. People brought their children, loved ones, and friends to attend the Trump rally. I saw an older Asian man and his white wife in attendance, and the looks on their faces when the rally was declared cancelled almost broke my heart. I saw scared children clinging to their parents’ sides as they exited the building to the screams of protesters. I saw a quiet, but excited crowd of Donald Trump supporters get thrown out of Chicago. Worst of all, I saw the first amendment trampled, spit on, and discarded like trash. This cannot go on. As I finish this, I feel a sense of utter dread and hopelessness for what is becoming of the youth in this country, particularly those of the regressive left. So polarized has political opinion become, that dissenting thoughts on college campuses are now seen as hateful. These people deal in absolutes. They are right, and whatever means they must take to achieve their ends, they will do it. They will not stop themselves from violence or censorship. They will do it, and they will call hell down upon you if anyone dare does upon them the same. Tonight I went to the Trump Rally to hear the thoughts of not only the man who was supposed to come and speak, but the people who support him. I found respect. I found calmness. I found peace. The truth is, I am a legal immigrant, not a US citizen. I am not American. I am not white. I cannot vote. After tonight, I support Donald Trump.”
I'm not saying that I'd vote for Trump, but this is the fascist left attempting to shut down all opposition in the same manner that the Sturmabteilung used to put and keep the Nazis in power. Also, are you unaware of the strong undercurrent of anti-semitism that runs virtually throughout leftist groups? It's not like the Obama administration and Israel are on the best of terms. The problem is, Ziggy, that there's no telling what this wave of enabled and encouraged political and social fascism coming from the left is capable of, and it's not like leftist leaders are condemning this behavior. They are, by and large, either silent or encourage it.William J Murray
May 8, 2016
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They keep adding letters, might as well type LGBTQWERTY :-D I use it on Facebook , it gets them ( social justice warriors) angryEugen
May 7, 2016
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RE 64 Canuck speaking of Orwell this is what I wrote concerning the hijacking of language in The End of Reasonable Debate thread. "WJM You are spot on. The left has hijacked our language by doing so they turn everything upside down. Telling the truth is indeed a revolutionary act and can get you fired all under the guise of tolerance. The tolerant left is anything but tolerant; they are the most intolerant people anyone can imagine, they are fascists ( this is not an ad hominim it is an accurate description) and want to impose totalitarianism. The fascism is most notable on our college campuses. Here is where language and Orwells “newspeak” really becomes evident. Terms such as hate speech, offensive speech and safe zones, are “newspeak” for intolerance, the silencing of free speech and any ideas that do not comport with leftist ideology. So Orwellian." Vividvividbleau
May 7, 2016
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KF -- "WJM, I fear we are just beginning the REAL slide. For comparison ponder Germany 1933 and 1945 — I doubt many would have believed what would happen in 12 years. KF" It starts with equal rights for women, then legalizing homosexuality, then same sex marriage, closely followed by gender neutral bathrooms and then, as inevitable as night follow day, the rounding up and murder of millions of Jews. Do you not think that your absurdly rediculous hyperbole might be just a little offensive to the millions who actually suffered under Hitler?ziggy lorenc
May 7, 2016
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Vivid, My college has a "Gay-Straight Alliance" student organization. Conveniently missing in LGBTQ is the "S." I'm shaking my head. They want alliances and safe spaces at the same time?CannuckianYankee
May 7, 2016
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RE 68 Haha. Hey we should be grateful they only used 20% of the alphabet :) Ok it was just over 19% but it early they are just getting started. Vividvividbleau
May 7, 2016
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Vivid, "LGBTQ safe space training." Does each one require a separate space? That could get expensive.CannuckianYankee
May 7, 2016
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WJM @ 63 [ It’s impossible to tell which are the useful idiots that simply parrot talking points and make sentimental “arguments” to “protect” some disenfranchised, reality-defying minority towards some half-baked idea of a progressive utopia, and which are the true Alinskyites who are pushing the downfall of western civilization knowingly. ] Allow me to shed some light on this a bit more. What I neglected to mention for brevity, is how exactly "Danielle" Muscato had arranged for Mark Sheirbecker to speak at what was supposed to be a Skepticon event, but in all appearances, it devolved into a BLM accusathon towards Shierbecker. Did you notice that? Did you also notice, that as Schierbecker was being accused of racism, and forced to accept that role, Muscato never defended him? That's why several days later, as Shierbecker had realized he had been used (he has explained that he is autistic - hence his vulnerability in such situations), he completely broke off his relationship with Muscato. He realized that he really wasn't a racist; but because of his race and present circumstances alone, was being conveniently used in order to frame a narrative regarding alleged rampant racism at the University of Missouri. It was planned to work because of his newfound celebrity. Regardless of whether there is actual racism at Mizzou (there likely is), the tactics utilized and made quite clear in that video, are horrendous. So in this case, I think it's clear who the Alynskyites are, and also in this case, the "useful idiot" eventually refused to be used. He finally realized what was going on; and while it had nothing to do with Mr. Muscato's gender identity; it DID have something to do with the operant conditioning Alynskyites employ in order to underhandedly fashion an agreement regarding our "collective shame" and "white privilege," or whatever happens to be the current social justice issue. If it took only a few days for an autistic man to realize he'd been had, I would think we should be able to see these tactics for what they are, as they're happening; but we fail to do anything about them; and that's a definite bane on the collective integrity of our society.CannuckianYankee
May 7, 2016
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Re 64 Canuck it was called LGBTQ safe space training. They had to draw there own genderbread person, yes genderbread. That's when I learned about gender fluidity, evidently it can change from one day to the next, hour to hour, moment to moment. I wrote all about it on another thread.... WJMs Reasonable Debate thread. Vividvividbleau
May 7, 2016
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WJM, I fear we are just beginning the REAL slide. For comparison ponder Germany 1933 and 1945 -- I doubt many would have believed what would happen in 12 years. KFkairosfocus
May 7, 2016
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Vivid, "my child who just recently had to sit through a day of indoctrination. " Let me guess: it was called something like "cultural competency?" Orwellian.CannuckianYankee
May 7, 2016
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Ziggy said:
Then you modify them accordingly. That is what the amendment process is for. You just don’t throw up your arms and say that something is completely unworkable.
Or, as an alternative, you think through the potential consequences of legislation before attempting to change an fundamental cultural norm that is being uprooted for no reason other than sentiment, and perhaps studying the issue to see if there are less problematic solutions, such as making single-user, inside-lock restrooms available instead of or in addition to the open, many user restrooms. CannuckianYankee @57: It's impossible to tell which are the useful idiots that simply parrot talking points and make sentimental "arguments" to "protect" some disenfranchised, reality-defying minority towards some half-baked idea of a progressive utopia, and which are the true Alinskyites who are pushing the downfall of western civilization knowingly. These consequences are not "slippery slope" projections, these are the right now, already-happening consequences of these kinds of laws. Right now there are boys playing on girls soccer teams and boys in girl's locker rooms and girls who complain being accused of being haters and bigots. Right now there are perverts taking advantage of these laws. Right now there are lawsuits being filed for "gender identity" discrimination. And all of this to indulge the reality-defying, impossible to objectively define or even recognize self-conceptualization of 0.3% of the population.William J Murray
May 7, 2016
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RE 61 Cannuck tell that to my child who just recently had to sit through a day of indoctrination. Had to grin and bear it to keep the job. It is indeed absurd but there are serious consequences for those who point out the absurdity. BTW my nickname for Ziggy is " stalls with walls" Vividvividbleau
May 7, 2016
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Vivid, I know. Don't expect a rational response. And thus the need for bathroom re-modifiers, who re-modify a bathroom each time the gender switches. I know, it's absurd, and that's the point. Of course, if you prefer law-re-modifiers, we could go that route as an alternative. :) The transgender movement is pushing for "gender-fluidity," which requires society to adjust to the ever-changing whims of those who believe their gender is not defined by their genitalia, but is rather fluid, depending on their given feelings at a particular time. It's absurd; and demands an absurd response.CannuckianYankee
May 7, 2016
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Cannuckian I'm asking about how Ziggy would modify the law. After all I could get in my car dressed as a man,since that is my identity at that moment, then get out of the car and on my entrance to the pool have a gender change. So wearing a mans swimsuit with I would want to use the woman's shower,. Vividvividbleau
May 7, 2016
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Vivid, A bathroom re-modifier. Steady work if you have carpentry and plumbing skills. :)CannuckianYankee
May 7, 2016
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Ziggy RE 51 "Then you modify them accordingly. That is what the amendment process is for. You just don’t throw up your arms and say that something is completely unworkable." How would you modify them? Keep in mind that gender identity is fluid and can change moment to moment. Vividvividbleau
May 7, 2016
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WJM @ 47 [ The law does NOT require any medical history or even consistency of expression to prove one’s “gender identity.” For example, this could mean a man wearing a wig or a dress, but it could also mean a man who simply says he feels like a woman. How are business owners and law enforcement officials expected to determine the difference? ] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfXKQyHuleA&index=2&list=PLgfUUbVoYe1itA3wJtmX8V6_LDNNDVS9V The main speaker in the above video - the one with the beard and rather male appearing business suit, who introduces Mark Schierbecker, is "Danielle Muscato," who was formerly David Muscato. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/11/17/today-im-saying-goodbye-to-my-old-self/ Muscato is a leader in "American Atheists." You'll notice the video's connection to the recent freedom of the press incident at the University of Missouri, which led to the firing of professor Melissa Click, for demanding "I need some help getting this journalist out of here. I need some muscle here." Mark Shierbecker was the journalist whom she assaulted and denied the right to cover a public event on campus. But let's take a look at this self-identified woman, "Danielle Muscato," who completely and quite apparently identifies in public as a man in dress, facial hair, mannerisms and all outward appearances, and is a "woman" only by virtue of an arbitrary name change. This, by all appearances, man, will be permitted to use a womens' washroom if laws are changed. There's no objective criteria whatsoever, which permits this man to identify as a woman.CannuckianYankee
May 7, 2016
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Z @ 55,
And a male lion will kill the children of another male lion when taking over a pride. So?
Well, that is an impulse I hadn't noticed in humans yet. But if it were, then in the absence of a Creator calling us to any higher standard, people would probably be hollering for the right to be able to act on that instinct also. In other words, if you are going to argue that you can't argue with biology, you have to be consistent about it. So if the gender identity issue is a case in point, then a fortiori, you have to let the rest of humanity do what it does instinctively, which is to ridicule and harass those who are different. After all, both are natural things. Only a theist can legitimately argue that we are called to better behavior, because only for him is there someone higher doing the calling.EDTA
May 7, 2016
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EDTA: If the other animals pick on their sissies—the members of their species that are somehow “different”, forcing them to leave the flock/pack/herd in disgrace—then why can’t we humans do it? And a male lion will kill the children of another male lion when taking over a pride. So? mike1962: Make single-user restrooms for them, and anyone else who wants to use them (like me.) Meanwhile ... http://www.blogcdn.com/www.mandatory.com/media/2012/09/meanwhile-scotland-bathroom.jpgZachriel
May 7, 2016
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One of the things that helps to solidify my Christian faith is the absurd and foolish things that people who abandon God work themselves into a position of believing. Confusion of gender is just the latest. "Men and women are essentially alike except of the physical sex organs." "Gender is fluid, but sexuality is not" "It is good for a society to make women fight in combat roles" "We really can't deny you the right to use the bathroom of the gender you feel like" "Marriage between two men should be just as honored as marriage between a man and a woman" All of these are things you have to be a fool to believe. All of them go against simple common sense and are things you have to be taught to accept. I am beginning to appreciate more and more that verse "The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God". It is not just about the past that caused the fool to come to that position, but also about the future foolishness which will come from the confused thinking that rejects the existence of a Creator.JDH
May 7, 2016
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Ziggy. You said. [ There are more and more establishments in Canada that have completely done away with gendered bathrooms. ] Then you implied that these are all what you call "gender neutral" bathrooms. But that isn't the case. They aren't all "gender neutral." They are "gender inclusive." There's a huge difference. I have no problem with gender neutral bathrooms for those who wish to use them. At the college where I attended until recently, these bathrooms were equipped such that wheel-chair bound students, and faculty could use them; so they were of maximum benefit. If that's what society chooses to do, I'm all for it. But that's not what's happening. What's happening is an agenda that makes no logical sense whatsoever, and that is to create "gender inclusive" washrooms based on the notion that a female transgendered person (one who is a man who now identifies as a woman), is not in-fact a woman, and needs a law that says "she" can use the womens' washroom. That is the insanity. If "she" is indeed a woman by virtue of "her" self-identity, there need be no law declaring that self-identified women have a right to use the women's restroom, shower, or what have you. It's the law that makes no sense, given the left's insistence that a self-identified woman is in-fact a woman. Do you not see the incongruence here? Then of course there's the license to predators, that such laws encourage. And the law encourages such behavior because it is necessarily vague as to what constitutes a man using a women's washroom. You can't have a law that says: "a man who identifies as a woman" has a right to use a women's washroom. The reason you can't have a law that says that, is because in a court of law, "self-identity" would not stand as a sufficiently objective criteria; and the lying left knows this.CannuckianYankee
May 7, 2016
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CY -- "“I haven’t heard about any incidents that have resulted from this.” Indeed, now you have." No, you have not demonstrated that the criminal antics of two stupid boys in a co-ed dorm was the result of gender neutral bathrooms. Unless you can say, with reasonable certainty, that it would not have happened in a female only dorm bathroom. I lived in a co-ed dorm with single gender bathrooms, and I had my clothes stolen by one of the boys such that I had to use the shower curtain as a robe. And I wasn't the only one. Others had Saran placed over the toilet seats. I am just thankful that we didn't have smart phones back then. But that sort of thing can happen, regardless of whether or not they are gender neutral. The important thing is to ensure that they are designed to ensure the safety and security for all. Something as simple as floor to ceiling bathroom and shower stalls.ziggy lorenc
May 7, 2016
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Mr. Murray -- "These laws are just asking for this kind of thing on an epic scale." Then you modify them accordingly. That is what the amendment process is for. You just don't throw up your arms and say that something is completely unworkable.ziggy lorenc
May 7, 2016
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Ziggy @ 46 "The bathroom bill that was reference, in the article that had nothing to do with bathrooms, was passed in 2012 (five years ago) and you could only find one incident?" I wasn't conducting an exhaustive search. I did a 2 second Google search for just 1 or 2 examples, which are a sufficient counter to your statement "I haven’t heard about any incidents that have resulted from this." Indeed, now you have.CannuckianYankee
May 7, 2016
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Why do you say that?
Because there would be too many to account for, and it offsets the burden on the taxpayer, which is coercive and immoral. One has to accept the society they live in, and that the minority does not trump the majority. When the left wants something, they run to the government.computerist
May 7, 2016
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Here:
A Seattle, Wash. community is in uproar after a man undressed in the women’s locker room at a local pool, seemingly to test a new rule that allows transgender people to use the bathroom of their gender identity, according toKing 5 News. ... The women inside the locker room at the time attempted to kick him out, but the guy refused and said “the law has changed and I have the right to be here.” ... “We’re not here saying that the transgendered community are predators,” a woman who was a victim of sexual assault told KING-5 TV, “We will never say that because we don’t believe that. What we do believe is that this code is so poorly written that predators will abuse. We know it because we have lived it.” ... He returned to the restroom for a second time later that evening, when young girls were changing for swim practice.
These laws are just asking for this kind of thing on an epic scale. Sadly, IMO that is exactly the purpose of such laws - to make virtually everyone who doesn't toe the ideological line an actual criminal or publicly condemned as a "hater" or a "bigot".William J Murray
May 7, 2016
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From here
“Gender identity or expression" is defined in MA law as "gender-related identity, appearance or behavior, whether or not that gender-related identity, appearance or behavior is different from that traditionally associated with the person's physiology or assigned sex at birth.” The law does NOT require any medical history or even consistency of expression to prove one’s “gender identity.” For example, this could mean a man wearing a wig or a dress, but it could also mean a man who simply says he feels like a woman. How are business owners and law enforcement officials expected to determine the difference? Some Massachusetts cities have passed local Bathroom Bills. These have also lead to problems. For example, a Boston man was arrested for refusing to leave the bathroom in a women’s shelter and was recently awarded $20,000 of taxpayer money after he sued the city under Boston’s transgender bathroom law. If HB4253 is passed, it would allow for incidents like this to spread throughout the entire Commonwealth. The Bathroom Bill carries a number of unintended consequences that could negatively impact the Bay State’s business community. PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS INCLUDE: Locker Rooms Bathrooms Shelters Fitness Centers Dressing Rooms Churches Nursing Homes The Bathroom Bill carries a number of unintended consequences that could negatively impact the Bay State’s business community. This bill opens businesses to criminal prosecution if they are accused of discrimination on the basis of gender identity. Under HB4253, even the standard male/female bathroom designation signs could be considered illegal discrimination. Penalties for violations would include fines and even imprisonment! Businesses will be forced to let men use the women’s restrooms This bill prevents a business from treating customers differently due to gender identity, but fails to make exceptions for restrooms on the business’s premises. This is a no-win situation for businesses: Comply with the law, and make employees or customers uncomfortable by letting men use the women’s restrooms, or ignore the law, and face expensive battles in court. The law gives even more power to the Massachusetts Commission Against Discrimination (MCAD), which is tasked with receiving, investigating, and mediating allegations of gender identity discrimination. This constitutes an expansion of ideologically motivated state bureaucracy into the daily affairs of businesses small and large.
Can you imagine the legal and social ramifications of such a bill? Can you image a slip of the tongue - a simple "Yes, ma'am" or "Yes sir" leading to a discrimination lawsuit? Can you see the opportunists lining up at the door to file such lawsuits? Heck, you don't even have to be consistent or prove you are in any factual way a "transgender" other than on your say so. Companies could no longer market to women or men - it would be discriminatory. How about writing stories - books, novels, TV scripts; is casting for a male and female part going to be illegal? Is portraying traditional male and female roles going to be illegal?William J Murray
May 7, 2016
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CY -- "Now you have." You found two examples. One of a common dorm washroom/shower room that was not modified to afford adequate privacy (my example was with floor to ceiling stalls) and the other didn't have anything to do with bathrooms. The one legitimate example occurred in a co-ed dorm where men and women live together. This incident could just of easily happened if the washrooms were same sex. This has more to do with a couple immature men (who were charged) than with gender neutral bathrooms. Maybe we should just revert to the days when dorms were single gender. The same arguments were made back when there was the move to make dorms co-ed. The bathroom bill that was reference, in the article that had nothing to do with bathrooms, was passed in 2012 (five years ago) and you could only find one incident? Should I do a search to see how many incidents have occurred in one sex bathrooms over the same time frame? As I inferred, this is a tempest in a teapot. Raising absurd hypotheticals and extremely rare (and questionable) incidents, does not make it a serious issue.ziggy lorenc
May 7, 2016
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Ziggy said:
And you arguing that it will make it legal for some pervert to enter a woman’s bathroom for nefarious purposes isn’t?
I never made such an argument. Can you not engage arguments as they are actually stated? Of course the law doesn't "make it legal" for perverts to do anything. I would never argue such an inane point. My entire point is about the actual social consequences of a law that effectively makes it legal for any man to go into any public restroom or facility marked "women", and I'm arguing about the consequences of enacting laws that pursue a gender-neutral social agenda. You appear to steadfastedly refuse to argue the actual points being raised and insist on recharacterizing arguments presented as something else. There are predatory males and females in society - people that wish to force unwelcome sexual, dangerous behavior onto others. That's a factual state of affairs. A woman-segregated bathroom is not segregated to prevent such people from entering at all (lawbreakers break laws), but rather to (1) accommodate a fairly universal social more of gender-based modesty and (2) provide a basic (if imperfect) sense of physical equality and relative personal safety, which is lost if (1) when they enter a rest room, there is 1 or more men inside, or if already inside, 1 or more men come in. Under old custom and law, if a woman found a man in the rest room, or one came in while she was in there, she would be immediately justified in shouting in order to get the attention of other people and to bring help or to get the man to leave; under current law, she would have no such recourse. If a man enters, she must wait until the man acts against her before she can alert anyone, and that could well be too late. Indeed, under old custom, if a man is seen entering the women's rest room, store staff or others are fully authorized to do something about it; under new law, there's nothing they can do about it.
Doing that was illegal and will remain illegal. There are more and more establishments in Canada that have completely done away with gendered bathrooms. No urinals. Floor to ceiling stalls. Common sink area. And I haven’t heard about any incidents that have resulted from this.
You apparently haven't read a thing I've written. Even if what you say is true (and apparently it is not, thanks to CannuckianYankee), is it because both sexes are using those restrooms without incident, or is it because women and people with children will simply, by and large, avoid using those facilities? Do you really think there are not predators who will take advantage of the situation for their benefit wrt such laws? Further, do you really believe that women and families will not simply opt out of going into such establishments when they can avoid it due to the fact that they cannot be sure what will be in the restrooms if they have to go, especially with a child? Do you not agree that a better answer to the transgender restroom question is to insist public venues, government facilities and relevant businesses offer single-user, inside-lock rest room facilities?William J Murray
May 7, 2016
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