Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Society, Rights, and Self-Identification

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Does a man have the right to identify himself as a woman and enter their locker rooms and bathrooms, demanding equal rights for their self-identification?  Does a person have the right to identify herself as a native American and, when filling out forms for employment or college, indicate her ethnicity as such, even though she is not?   Should the force of law support such self-identifications which contradict the physical facts and insist that society accommodate any such self-identifications?

Where is the line between socially protected self-identification in conflict with physical facts and delusion?  Can physically unrelated people identify themselves as family and represent themselves as such on legal forms?  Can an adult self-identify as a child and thus obligate his parents to take care of him his entire life?

There are physical realities that exist which are not transformed by how one chooses to conceptualize themselves or others and which are not changed by altering clothes or body parts. Men are not women, and women are not men, no matter how much anyone believes that one can become the other.  Even if the whole world calls a woman a man, it is not so.  That’s just the physical reality.  No amount of self or public identification as such makes Elizabeth Warren a Native American or Shaun King black or Bruce Jenner a woman.

A person can dress up, obtain surgeries and call themselves whatever they like; that does not obligate the rest of society to indulge their particular conceptualization of themselves.  I don’t have a problem with people doing any of that to themselves and for their own personal reasons, but surely the rest of us should not be forced by law or even compelled by PC obligation to indulge their self-conceptualization.

Do people have the right to self-identify in contradiction to the physical facts and expect the force of law to make society accept and conform to their concept of themselves?  If I refuse to indulge your particular conceptualization of yourself, or as a business refuse to indulge, am I being a “hater”? Am I being “intolerant”?  Is it my job to protect the feelings and promote a sense of “equality” and “enfranchisement” for those that self-identify in conflict with physical reality?

Further, won’t the social and legal demand to ignore physical realities in favor of protecting the feelings of such groups, and in fact make it a crime to state those physical realities or act in accordance with them, most certainly cause problematic, even dire unintended consequences in the future? A population trained to ignore reality in favor of sentimental, feel-good, virtue signalling memes can be manipulated to do virtually anything given the right narrative-messaging.

Comments
Ziggy @ 27: [ It seems to me that society has been asked to “just adapt” to many things over the last century. And it appears to be stronger because of it. Oh those foolish Liberals. ] How is society bettered by enabling a delusion at the cost of giving perverts more license?CannuckianYankee
May 7, 2016
May
05
May
7
07
2016
09:44 AM
9
09
44
AM
PDT
Ziggy said: [ There are more and more establishments in Canada that have completely done away with gendered bathrooms. No urinals. Floor to ceiling stalls. Common sink area. And I haven’t heard about any incidents that have resulted from this. ] http://www.dailywire.com/news/330/university-toronto-dumps-transgender-bathrooms-pardes-seleh https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/sexual-predator-jailed-after-claiming-to-be-transgender-in-order-to-assault Now you have.CannuckianYankee
May 7, 2016
May
05
May
7
07
2016
09:25 AM
9
09
25
AM
PDT
Mr. Murray -- You’re arguing a straw man." And you arguing that it will make it legal for some pervert to enter a woman's bathroom for nefarious purposes isn't? Doing that was illegal and will remain illegal. There are more and more establishments in Canada that have completely done away with gendered bathrooms. No urinals. Floor to ceiling stalls. Common sink area. And I haven't heard about any incidents that have resulted from this.ziggy lorenc
May 7, 2016
May
05
May
7
07
2016
08:30 AM
8
08
30
AM
PDT
Ziggy said:
Your so-called “absurd definitions” are recognized by doctors and psychiatrists. And in many cases there is a measurable physical fact (eg, hormonal, genetic, brain structure) to explain them.
You don't even see how self-defeating your logic is. You and Zachriel argue that gender cannot be "boxed", yet you both make arguments that do just that - that transexuals "dress" and "act" like women, or as if some there are psychological and physical markers that identify them as "women". Claiming that a man can identify as a women presumes the real existence of the very standards of gender identification that you claim are discriminatory and "puts people in social boxes". Even the term "transgender" puts people in a socially defined box. If we apply the actual logic of your viewpoint to find the real consequences (something you seem to be unable to do), this is where we get to: there is no reference to sex at all. Asking people their sex for any reason becomes illegal. Barring people from anything based on sex is illegal because it attempts to impose a conceptual, boxed limitation on their idea of "self". Now, imagine the result of truly gender-neutral legal system and truly gender-neutral public policy where anyone can "self-identify" as anything they wish and act, and expect others to act, as if that self-identification was a physical reality. Do you think that would be a good thing? Now expand the scope of that to other areas of physical reality, such as age, race, skills, strength, intelligence, etc. Should society be skill, age, race, strength and intelligence blind when it comes to law and policy? Should people be able to self-identify as any age, skill, race, strength and intelligence they wish and society, via policy and law, forced to agree to such self-conceptualizations?William J Murray
May 7, 2016
May
05
May
7
07
2016
08:06 AM
8
08
06
AM
PDT
Indeed, EDTA, if gender is nothing but a social construct attempting to put people in boxes, then what is not just a mere social construct? Age? Race? Lineage? Skill? Strength? Ziggy:
All that is happening is that they are removing the legal restrictions on something that is going on now and has caused no harm.
No, that is not "all that is happening". What the law does is give any man, whether they honestly see themselves as transgender or not, legal right to go into any bathroom. The law in California also allows boys to compete on girl's teams. You appear to be trying to make this appear as if the objections are rooted in some kind of bigotry against transgenders, it is not. The objection is about the consequences of the laws which have nothing whatsoever to do with actual transgenders, dressed and made up to look like women (which is an odd contradiction in itself, seeing as such conformity to social norms of what a woman should look like contradicts the idea that there are no gender identity "boxes"), going discreetly into the woman's rest room. But the federal government, in pushing it's gender-fluid utopian concept upon us as if there are no men or perverts (NOT SAYING this applies to transgenders) out there ready to abuse this new law, is forcing the confrontation which resulted in the NC law. They could have gone another route entirely, such as a law insisting that places of business offer single-user, inside-lock rest rooms. You're arguing a straw man. This is not about transgender rights or transgender equality AT ALL. It's about ignoring physical reality in favor of some leftist ideal. Just like with the county clerk religious freedom issue, there is another way to go about giving transgenders restrooms without all of the unintended consequences of providing only open, gender-neutral restrooms in public.William J Murray
May 7, 2016
May
05
May
7
07
2016
07:51 AM
7
07
51
AM
PDT
Mr. Murray -- "If “discrimination” is extended to insist that society ignore physical facts and adopt absurd definitions, the the term “discrimination” has lost it’s merit as a tool for good change and has instead become nothing more than emotional rhetoric. Your so-called "absurd definitions" are recognized by doctors and psychiatrists. And in many cases there is a measurable physical fact (eg, hormonal, genetic, brain structure) to explain them.ziggy lorenc
May 7, 2016
May
05
May
7
07
2016
07:40 AM
7
07
40
AM
PDT
News -- "None of this is workable and would not be considered if women’s welfare mattered." It has been working for decades without incident. All that is happening is that they are removing the legal restrictions on something that is going on now and has caused no harm. I dare say that you have shared a bathroom with a transsexual on numerous occasions without even knowing it. Are you going to stop using public washrooms now that you know this?ziggy lorenc
May 7, 2016
May
05
May
7
07
2016
07:30 AM
7
07
30
AM
PDT
>It seems to me that society has been asked to “just adapt” to >many things over the last century. And it appears to be stronger because of it. Really? I would argue that (aside from military and technological considerations), we are weaker than we've been in a long time. (Western civ. that is.) We have addressed many social inequities of late, but that does not necessarily equate with societal strength. Strength has to be measured as integrity: the ability to preserve the things we value over time and if/while under pressure. Yet we are in a period of extremely rapid cultural change, which means that anything can happen nearly overnight in civilizational terms. Less stability equals greater potential for revolutionary change, and nothing about human nature or human history guarantees that change will always be in the direction of good. There are fewer guarantees than ever that we will retain our freedom or prosperity for even another generation. For a deeper analysis, see here.EDTA
May 7, 2016
May
05
May
7
07
2016
06:51 AM
6
06
51
AM
PDT
Z: Nor do transgender or intersexual people want to be in the “wrong” bathroom. Fine. Make single-user restrooms for them, and anyone else who wants to use them (like me.) My local Target does this. And it's the only thing that keeps me from boycotting them given their idiotic new general policy. No reason to change policy that negatively affects the vast majority. Just make a single-user restroom and move on to another issue. But, no, Target has some lefty LGBT culture warriors in the higher ups that feel they have to make some kind of a grand gesture. I have not been to my local Target since this all started. Maybe I'll spend my dollars elsewhere and let them know why. EDTA @35 +1 I have become much more sociopathic since the atheists convinced me there is no God or higher purpose, or karma... or final judgement. It's so... liberating. Lions and gazelles, baby, lions and gazelles. And I'm one of the lions. And I have a voracious appetite.mike1962
May 7, 2016
May
05
May
7
07
2016
06:36 AM
6
06
36
AM
PDT
A question for those of atheistic belief: If the other animals pick on their sissies—the members of their species that are somehow "different", forcing them to leave the flock/pack/herd in disgrace—then why can't we humans do it? It would be the natural thing to do. And aren't we all about doing whatever comes naturally these days? In fact, isn't that what the sexually non-traditional are doing: whatever comes naturally to them? It will be replied that we can do better than the other animals. They behave out of instinct, we can do far better by according all equal respect, and bearing with those that find life difficult because they were born outside of the statistically-normal sexual pattern for our species. This raises us above the other animals, as is fitting for creatures with larger brains. I would respond by asking what difference any of that makes from an atheistic perspective. All the things mentioned above, from an atheistic perspective, are irrelevant, as they are only ultimately meaningless artificial social constructs. No natural phenomenon calls us to be "respectful". Atoms know no such thing as "bearing with others". Bare nature knows of no such things. To obey those higher ideas (or even to call some ideas higher than others), is to deny the very principle that we are supposed to follow nature wherever it leads. Since the 1960's, that's what we've been all about, isn't it—letting the instincts have ever greater reign? So we regular folk are supposed to treat the sexually non-traditional in ways that reflect virtuously on us, while the sexually non-traditional are allowed to follow their biology wherever it may lead them? This makes no sense at all, and is in fact quite condescending towards the sexually non-traditional. As a theist, I believe that there is a higher standard we are called to. Our Maker can call us to it legitimately. We should treat each other with respect, but understand that in our less-than-perfect state, we cannot cope with every corner case that crops up, biologically speaking. Got a biologically-ambiguous or even reversed body or psyche? We'll do the best that we can, but we're going to have to take care of the majority (heterosexual) case first. Your life may not be a bed of roses...but then many of our lives aren't beds of roses either, for a host of possible reasons. We're all still expected by our Maker to behave virtuously in all regards. I say all this as a happily married, always-heterosexual person who has never picked on a sexually non-traditional person. In fact, in my youth, I was a picked-on sissy who, around the age of 11 began considering taking my own life because of how I was treated by my peers. It was only because of my (at the time rudimentary) theistic beliefs that I chose not to pursue taking my own life, but instead chose to stick it out. I shudder to think of the pain I would have caused others had I not had those theistic beliefs, as crude as they were at the time. In fact, it was my decision to stick it out that was the beginning of strength. It is only by striving toward lofty goals that one finds that. To acquiesce to mere nature is weakness.EDTA
May 7, 2016
May
05
May
7
07
2016
06:25 AM
6
06
25
AM
PDT
velikovskys said;
Good question, seems like they thought discrimination was a greater evil than changing the status quo.
Should anti-discrimination laws be extended to protect personal conceptualizations of oneself in contradiction to physical facts? For instance, should woman who conceive of themselves as fit and strong enough to be fire fighters be allowed to be fire fighters whether or not they can pass tests meant to determine if they are fit and strong enough? What about sports? If men conceive of themselves as women, should sports organizations be forced to allow men to compete against women in women's venues and leagues, like tennis and the olympics? Aren't those indeed cases of discrimination? Shouldn't the NFL be forced by anti-discrimination laws to give women tryouts for the team? Shouldn't colleges be forced to integrate their all-male teams with women even if it means they don't put the best team possible on the field? Also, exactly how will these bathroom laws be enforced? Does a man who identifies as being a woman have to dress like a woman and wear make-up to try to pass as a woman? No, such laws necessarily mean that anyone can walk into any bathroom regardless of who is in there, regardless of what anyone appears to look like. This essentially means forced co-sex bathrooms. IOW, if you go out in public, you must use a bathroom that anyone can use, male or female or other. When the term "discrimination" is used to protect personal conceptualizations of oneself in contradiction to physical facts, it has been transformed from a useful, meaningful concept to an absurdity, a blatant lie used only to coerce the population according to an agenda. There is an easy, public-friendly way to avoid all of this; instead of forcing society to adopt open, gender-neutral public restrooms, they could have instead adopted Mike1962's suggestion: single-user restrooms that lock from the inside. Even at venues where there also need to be open, public male/female bathrooms, there could still be a law that requires a certain number of single-user inside-lock rest rooms. Ziggy said:
As they were fools for suggesting that society should just adapt to blacks marrying whites, to women being allowed to vote, to women being paid equal money for equal work, to not jailing people for being homosexual, to not charging Chinese immigrants a head tax, to allowing Jews to join clubs, to allowing kids to talk about homosexuality at school, to allowing girls to play sports traditionally played only by men, to understanding that no means no.
Surely you realize your logical error here - just because some changes were good for society doesn't mean all changes are good for society; and just because some things are cases of discrimination and prejudice doesn't mean all things are cases of discrimination and prejudice. If "discrimination" is extended to insist that society ignore physical facts and adopt absurd definitions, the the term "discrimination" has lost it's merit as a tool for good change and has instead become nothing more than emotional rhetoric. It's one thing to allow girls to try out for a boy's team, it's another thing entirely to pass an ill-conceived law that allows any boy that wishes to to compete on girls teams. The logical, unintended consequence of this law will be gender-neutral team sports (just like gender-neutral restrooms) that will drive many girls out of sports since they will have to compete against boys, just as the gender-neutral restrooms will drive women away from using public restrooms, and drive families out of public entertainment venues and shopping. It has nothing whatsoever to do with thinking transgenders are perverts or dangerous; it has to do with the fact that men are permitted to enter any restroom they wish.
It seems to me that society has been asked to “just adapt” to many things over the last century. And it appears to be stronger because of it. Oh those foolish Liberals.
You may not know this, but there is a difference between classical Liberalism (which is Libertarian in nature, a feature of the rightist side of the political spectrum) and socialist progressivism. Most of the things you mention were indeed championed through classical liberalism (individual liberty and equality), but where classical liberalism stops and socialistic progressivism begins is where facts and truth cease to matter and serving the fascist thought-agenda is everything. Demanding that we ignore the physical, factual difference between males and females (and their autonomous ability to, in concert, create families) in service of progressive utopian ideals (at best) or some dystopian reconceptualization of humanity as borderless, gender-free non-family state-owned commodities (at worst) is fascism of the worst kind. Also, how are you defining the term "stronger"? How is society "stronger", in your opinion, through the recent laws dealing with sexual orientation, SSM, and gender identification?William J Murray
May 7, 2016
May
05
May
7
07
2016
06:25 AM
6
06
25
AM
PDT
News: One does not have that relationship with every male who wishes to be in women’s restrooms or change rooms. Nor do transgender or intersexual people want to be in the "wrong" bathroom. Yet, there is a movement afoot which will force them to do so. https://twitter.com/JayShef/status/712845760287494144/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5EtfwZachriel
May 7, 2016
May
05
May
7
07
2016
06:03 AM
6
06
03
AM
PDT
vjtorley: The Left makes a sharp distinction between sex and gender. So does the dictionary. gender, the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex sex, either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures vjtorley: The fact that we can identify individuals whose sex is ambiguous has no relation to the question of what society should do about trans-gender individuals. It's obvious evidence that the human species is not strictly dichotomous with regards to sex, and with regards to gender. There is wide variation, not just in physical aspects of humans, but in how humans view themselves, and in their sexual predilections. vjtorley: do you really believe that being a woman is nothing but a state of mind, and that if someone feels like a woman, that automatically makes them a woman? You keep wanting to push people into gender boxes. Some people born male certainly do identify as female, and some born female who certainly do identify as male. And there are people who identify as both or neither or something in between. In some cases, there is a known biochemical or genetic basis for this, but in most cases, little is actually understood. computerist: Society simply cannot take into account all the possible subjective categories/exceptions. Why do you say that? ziggy lorenc: It seems to me that society has been asked to “just adapt” to many things over the last century. And it appears to be stronger because of it.Zachriel
May 7, 2016
May
05
May
7
07
2016
05:58 AM
5
05
58
AM
PDT
Ziggy Lorence at 25, you write: -- News — “Very few women want to use washrooms also used by men, whether they claim to be transgender or not, or whatever is the story.” It must be great to be rich enough for you and your husband to have seperate bathrooms. My husband and I must share the same one. -- You must be very proud of yourself thinking up such a clever riposte. It did not perhaps occur to you that he IS your husband. No, of course not. What difference would that make? One does not have that relationship with every male who wishes to be in women's restrooms or change rooms. None of this is workable and would not be considered if women's welfare mattered. But you just go on advocating what you are advocating as stridently and self-righteously as you can. The world is listening now, more than it used to.News
May 7, 2016
May
05
May
7
07
2016
01:03 AM
1
01
03
AM
PDT
Its the right of the people to decide what the rights are except natural rights. One does not have rights until proving the source of that right. the use of the word RIGHTS has been allowed by the people to allow any activist. Before we contend about rights the one claiming rights, denied at the moment, must prove the source/authority behind the RIGHT claim. God and man have always said God and man have the right to insist and impose the segregation on people os sex and this a segregation of association. If someone says God and man neverr and don't have this right then prove it. Saying the right not to be segregated trumps is saying nothing. All these things come back to Lockean natural rights from God. Then mans right to make his civilization and contracts backing it up. If these unwell dysfunctional transgender s say they have the right to enter this or that place then say you have the right to stop them. Just say rights equals right. Who is the boss??? THE BOSS WAS SETTLED LONG AGO ESPECIALLY IN AMERICA. obey the boss.Robert Byers
May 7, 2016
May
05
May
7
07
2016
12:14 AM
12
12
14
AM
PDT
Where is the line between socially protected self-identification in conflict with physical facts and delusion? Can physically unrelated people identify themselves as family and represent themselves as such on legal forms? Can an adult self-identify as a child and thus obligate his parents to take care of him his entire life?
The line is drawn wherever it gets the most support for the Democratic Party. If anyone can identify a more consistent principle involved, I'm all ears.EvilSnack
May 6, 2016
May
05
May
6
06
2016
08:50 PM
8
08
50
PM
PDT
WJM: Which begs the question, why did California change the law concerning school bathrooms, school locker rooms and school sports teams, Good question, seems like they thought discrimination was a greater evil than changing the status quo. Wonder why it took two years to get so riled up? Maybe the war on Christmas was losing its power to gin up outrage. and why did Target institute a policy of gender-neutral bathrooms? They support the federal Equality Act Since the old system was working so well and there were no complaints or incidents to speak of? The rush of conservative states to change the present system meant the old system no longer existed.velikovskys
May 6, 2016
May
05
May
6
06
2016
08:30 PM
8
08
30
PM
PDT
CY -- "Liberals are fools for suggesting that society should just adapt." As they were fools for suggesting that society should just adapt to blacks marrying whites, to women being allowed to vote, to women being paid equal money for equal work, to not jailing people for being homosexual, to not charging Chinese immigrants a head tax, to allowing Jews to join clubs, to allowing kids to talk about homosexuality at school, to allowing girls to play sports traditionally played only by men, to understanding that no means no. It seems to me that society has been asked to "just adapt" to many things over the last century. And it appears to be stronger because of it. Oh those foolish Liberals.ziggy lorenc
May 6, 2016
May
05
May
6
06
2016
08:22 PM
8
08
22
PM
PDT
Ziggy said: "Every time a male transgender used a women’s bathroom, he was breaking the law." Let me get this straight. A man who dresses as a woman, and who identifies as a woman, IS legally, in fact, a woman - according to the PC agenda of the left. Yet you say that "he" was breaking the law by using the womens' restroom? How so? I'm really quite confused by the language utilized here. You say "a male transgender." Which is it, is he a woman, or is she a man? You see, even the left is so confused on the terminology, that they mix up these categories, calling a transgendered person either male or female, but not the gender of which they identify. You just did exactly that. And that's why society is now rejecting stores like Target, who have become so PC on this, yet even they aren't consistent with what to call a "transgendered male." And you don't see how a society can reject such a proposition on its merits? It's probably THE most obviously incoherent social construct of the last century. Liberals are fools for suggesting that society should just adapt.CannuckianYankee
May 6, 2016
May
05
May
6
06
2016
07:06 PM
7
07
06
PM
PDT
Mr. Murray -- "What exactly is the point of all of this if, as Ziggy said, things were working just fine before?" I didn't quite say that. I said that things were going without any serious incidents. But that is a far cry from saying that things were working just fine. Every time a male transgender used a women's bathroom, he was breaking the law. Turning a blind eye to breaking the law is never s good thing. It is a "slippery slope". News -- "Very few women want to use washrooms also used by men, whether they claim to be transgender or not, or whatever is the story." It must be great to be rich enough for you and your husband to have seperate bathrooms. My husband and I must share the same one. News -- "Most women don’t care what the story is. There is a history and many of us know it." I don't think that either you or I can speak for "most women", as much as we would like to think that we do. News -- "I don’t know how transgender washrooms even came to be a topic at Uncommon Descent." I think it evolved from Mr. Murray's thread on the loss of rational thought. I think it was KF's fixation on same sex marriage that started it. News -- "But I do have a question for all readers: How did it EVER come to pass that governments, courts, and corporations are trying to force women to relax their standards about who is allowed in the women’s washroom?" It applies to both men's and women's bathrooms. And what "standards", exactly, are being relaxed? The "standards" that simply legalize what has been happening for decades, without any incident?ziggy lorenc
May 6, 2016
May
05
May
6
06
2016
05:37 PM
5
05
37
PM
PDT
It's simply impractical. Society simply cannot take into account all the possible subjective categories/exceptions. And it would wrong to put the burden on the taxpayer to appease and empower the progressive left.computerist
May 6, 2016
May
05
May
6
06
2016
05:20 PM
5
05
20
PM
PDT
The Death of Humanity, Part 1 Professor Richard Weikart makes a case for life, while explaining the secular philosophies throughout history that have shaped a culture of death. A book for all pro-life advocates! http://carrieabbott.com/death-humanity-part-1/bornagain77
May 6, 2016
May
05
May
6
06
2016
04:47 PM
4
04
47
PM
PDT
Related note: The Death of Humanity, Part 2 - interview Professor Richard Weikart shows when philosophers discard God, they attempt to replace Him with ideas that lead to suicide, mass killing, abortion, moral depravity, sexual hedonism & more. An important book for all of us! http://carrieabbott.com/death-humanity-part-2/bornagain77
May 6, 2016
May
05
May
6
06
2016
04:16 PM
4
04
16
PM
PDT
Zachriel, The Left makes a sharp distinction between sex and gender. The fact that we can identify individuals whose sex is ambiguous has no relation to the question of what society should do about trans-gender individuals. By your own admission, those are two entirely different questions. I would also ask you: do you really believe that being a woman is nothing but a state of mind, and that if someone feels like a woman, that automatically makes them a woman? If so, why do you not adopt the same subjective standard with regard to other human categories?vjtorley
May 6, 2016
May
05
May
6
06
2016
04:07 PM
4
04
07
PM
PDT
Very few women want to use washrooms also used by men, whether they claim to be transgender or not, or whatever is the story. Most women don't care what the story is. There is a history and many of us know it. I don't know how transgender washrooms even came to be a topic at Uncommon Descent. But I do have a question for all readers: How did it EVER come to pass that governments, courts, and corporations are trying to force women to relax their standards about who is allowed in the women's washroom? The answer, I am afraid, is political correctness. No one dare say that "desegregating" public washrooms will benefit predators more than transgenders - by impact of numbers alone. One tries to take a practical view of these problems: If women vote for governments or buy goods from corporations or approve of the selection of judges or belong to the organizations who front this stuff, they are solely responsible for the outcomes to themselves and those they care about. But other women will suffer too. There will be more and more situations like the transgender washrooms, and crazier than this, as progressivism - the political end of naturalism - takes hold. The road to reality will be painful and dangerous, and not profitable for the governments, corporations, judges and organizations, who will fight it every step of the way. Those who want to live must be on the road to reality, and must not expect establishment sources to point it out to them.News
May 6, 2016
May
05
May
6
06
2016
04:02 PM
4
04
02
PM
PDT
kairosfocus: we need to handle exceptions as exceptions, and not allow that to set the norms for our general conduct. And here we thought that in free societies, each person has an equal right to the benefits of society. William J Murray: Men are not women, and women are not men William J Murray: I didn’t say that everyone was physically a man or a woman. If you say so... William J Murray: However, behavior and attitude do not change physical facts no matter how much the progressive left insists otherwise. Yes, and the facts are that not everyone fits into the boxes you have decided everyone must fit into. William J Murray: A man who dresses up and acts like a woman is a man that dresses up and acts like a woman. Or she could be someone who doesn't fit into the boxes you have decided everyone must fit into. Mung: So? It refutes William J Murray's claim that "Men are not women, and women are not men". In the real world, there is a wide range of sexual and gender diversity in the human population.Zachriel
May 6, 2016
May
05
May
6
06
2016
03:54 PM
3
03
54
PM
PDT
Here we have a case where the Federal government is threatening to revoke $6 million in funding "unless they gave a biologically male student unfettered access to the girls’ locker" in Palatine, IL.
“They are effectively redefining a clear and unambiguous term in a federal statute,” he said. “The term is ‘sex’. For the 40 years of that statute’s history – sex has always meant male and female. But they redefined the term to include gender identity.”
As per my last thread about the use of redefined, incorrect terminology to advance an agenda, the term "sex" is being redefined as "gender identity" in order to coerce a leftist agenda into the population beginning with the school system. What exactly is the point of all of this if, as Ziggy said, things were working just fine before? From here:
If we agree to change language to suit the transgender lobby, we ultimately agree to destroy in law the entire basis (sex distinctions) for the only union that can result in autonomously formed families. The implications for privacy and personal relationships are vast, and we need to understand that. ... And if the family is no longer accepted as a union that originates through the union of male and female, there is no real basis for the State to recognize any family as an autonomous unit. Without any such obligation, children become more easily classified as state property and our personal relationships are more easily controlled by the state. If that sounds totalitarian, that’s because it is. ... On the surface, the transgender package, with its assortment of gender identities, to many still resembles a fringe movement, or a passing fad. So lots of folks have been duped into thinking that the purpose of it all is to grant equal rights to a minority demographic. But it’s really about changing the language, and thereby redefining us all. ... Indeed, “civil rights” is always a nice line. It works well to stop debate. There’s lots of emotional blackmail involved because of the social punishments (labels of “hater” or “bigot”) heaped upon anyone who might question the agenda. So how might an elite impose “collective belief formation” upon an unwitting public? It’s about marketing, of course, injecting memes (an older term is “hype”) into public discourse in order to build opinion cascades. An interesting academic look at this is in a Stanford Law Review article by Cass Sunstein and Timur Kuran on “availability cascades.” It explains how you can take an implausible idea and make it seem plausible by raising its availability in public discourse. Once you’ve shaped public opinion through all the usual channels—Hollywood, academic, the media, and so on—then the road to public policy has been nicely paved.
Which is exactly why schools have been targeted to enforce this dramatic change of one of the core aspects of physical reality and society.William J Murray
May 6, 2016
May
05
May
6
06
2016
03:36 PM
3
03
36
PM
PDT
WJM said: "Which begs the question, why did California change the law concerning school bathrooms, school locker rooms and school sports teams, and why did Target institute a policy of gender-neutral bathrooms? Since the old system was working so well and there were no complaints or incidents to speak of?" This is the point that the left is missing. They want it both ways. They want us to recognize that a man who dresses as a woman IS a woman, but that as a man, he should be allowed to use the womens' restroom. They don't recognize the total absurdity of such a position. If they are indeed women, there need be no law allowing men to use womens' restrooms and vice versa. The reason, of course is because there's an agenda - whereby the left wants those who disagree with transgenderism, to acknowledge it. That seems to be the only reason for gender neutral restrooms - to force acceptance by all. We should be able to see right through such an agenda. But another inconsistency with the left, particularly the LGBT crowd; and I've pointed this out before, is that men and women are perfectly right in changing their sex, but anyone who wants to change their sexual orientation from gay to straight, are in denial. Hmmm.CannuckianYankee
May 6, 2016
May
05
May
6
06
2016
03:26 PM
3
03
26
PM
PDT
WJM -- "Which begs the question, why did California change the law concerning school bathrooms, school locker rooms..." I suspect it is because people don't want to be breaking the law.ziggy lorenc
May 6, 2016
May
05
May
6
06
2016
03:16 PM
3
03
16
PM
PDT
Ziggy said:
I couldn’t agree more. Transgendered and transsexuals have been using the bathroom of their non-biological gender for decades. And I haven’t heard anywhere that it has been a problem. In the women’s bathroom they use the stalls like everybody else. In the men’s, they also use the stalls. No children being exposed or threatened. Nobody getting raped or assaulted.
Which begs the question, why did California change the law concerning school bathrooms, school locker rooms and school sports teams, and why did Target institute a policy of gender-neutral bathrooms? Since the old system was working so well and there were no complaints or incidents to speak of?William J Murray
May 6, 2016
May
05
May
6
06
2016
02:58 PM
2
02
58
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply