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L&FP 40: Thoughts on [neo-?] Reidian Common Sense Realism

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We live in a civilisation haunted by doubt and by hyperskepticism. One, where skepticism is deemed a virtue, inviting hyper forms in as champions of intellect. The result has gradually led to selective hyperskepticism that often uncritically takes the word of champions or publicists for Big-S Science, while doubting well founded but unfashionable analyses or even self-evident truths.

H’mm, just in case someone is unclear about or doubts that Self-Evident Truths exist, here is one . . . with an extra one for good measure:

(Of course, I also have argued that there are self-evident truths regarding duty; particularly, inescapable first duties of reason that actually govern responsible reason, argument and discussion, starting with duties to truth, right reason, warrant and wider prudence, etc. Thus, that there are MORAL SETs. For, example, not even the most ardent objector can avoid appealing to these principles to try to give his arguments rhetorical/persuasive traction. Inescapable, so true and self-evident. I just note that for the moment.)

How, then, can we exorcise the ghosts of acid doubt and restore a better balance regarding knowledge claims?

I think, Thomas Reid and other champions of “[refined] common sense” have some sound counsel. That is, I wish to champion a principle of responsible, common sense guided credulity:

PRINCIPLE OF “MODERATE” CREDULITY: It makes good sense to accept that our conscious self-awareness, sense of rational, responsible freedom (with first duties of reason) — “common sense,” so-called, and sense of being embodied as creatures in an objectively real physical world are generally warranted though they may err or have limitations or oddities in detail

Magenta (used in CMYK printing), violet and purple. Notice, Magenta seems a modified pinkish Red, Violet a modified Blue, Purple a reddened modified Blue

A case in point helps to clarify. Here, colour vision. There are two related but somehow distinct colours, violet and purple. The former is spectral [i.e. a “pure” colour coming from certain wavelengths of light], the latter is not. [Generally, purple is seen as a mix of red and blue, e.g. the Line of Purples on the CIE tongue of colour framework.] Why, then, the similarity, despite the difference?

The answer turns out to depend on our colour sensors and onward processing in our eyes and visual system. Simplifying, it turns out that our Red response system has a secondary peak towards the high frequency end of the visible spectrum, near Blue:

Colour response of our visual system, as modelled. Notice the secondary peak for “Red”
Blue Jeans are Indigo

The result is that at the Blue, short wavelength end, we distinguish Blue-Green [e.g. Cyan], Blue, Indigo [cf. dark Blue Jeans], Violet. And the relationship with Purple becomes obvious, Purple superposes Red and Blue colours, which is typically going to be significantly redder than Violet.

So, we see here how our perception of colours is shaped by our embodiment and specifics of our bodily tissues and cells, but corresponds to objective phenomena. Indeed, the colour screen you are most likely using to view this on, works by superposing tiny pixels with Red, Green and Blue. If you were to print off on a modern colour printer, it will most likely blend dots of Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and Black, with the paper providing White.

I add, on metamerism, so we can see how two closely similar colours can be composed in quite distinct ways:

Here we see two ways to a brassy amberish colour. One is spectral, with a suitably low light level that excites our LMS cones in a certain pattern. The other uses Red and Green light sources that yields a similar stimulation. So, a simple look at the objects might not tell the difference. This is of course part of how RGB displays work [HT Wikipedia]

There is no good reason to airily sweep such away as being beyond some ugly, impassable gulch between what we can access internally through consciousness and a dubious external world of appearances. That is why we can take the principle that yes, we may err on particular points or details but on the whole there is no good reason to dismiss our conscious awareness — we symbolise C:( ) — and what it immediately presents, the self [= I] embedded in the world [We].

Let us symbolise:

C:(I UNION We)

So, we notice that it is our consciousness that carries everything else and instantly presents us with our sense of ourselves embedded in the world beyond our bodies. Our bodies, of course, are part of the physical world. Where, our reasonings are part of that self-awareness and are inextricably entangled with perceptions and language describing what we are aware of and perceive. The union is used as our bodies are embedded in the world and we are somehow present within it.

I have often pointed to Eng Derek Smith’s two-tier controller, cybernetic loop model as a context for discussing how that can be, esp. with quantum influence:

The Eng Derek Smith Cybernetic Model

In this light, the Plato’s Cave type shadow-show world of grand doubts or delusions can be set aside as self-defeating:

Plato’s Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)

For, there is no natural firewall, so to give a general challenge to our consciousness, self awareness, sense of the self or perception of the world is to undermine the whole process. That is as opposed to having errors in detail or to recognising processes and limitations of sensing, neural network computation etc and the quantum physical substructure associated with that awareness. As, Violet vs Purple indicates.

In short, the point is to recognise limitations without falling into hyperskepticism or reductionism. This is of course a part of the old philosophical problem of the one and the many. In a sense, there is nothing new under the Sun.

In this context, I find Michael Davidson helpful as he discusses what he terms Reid’s Razor, in effect a manifesto of defeasible but heuristically generally effective common good sense reasoning:

[Reidian Common good sense as definition and razor, 1785:] “that degree of judgement which is common to men with whom we can converse and transact business”

Davidson shrewdly points out, how the Razor shaves:

Take a philosophical or scientific principle that is being applied to a particular situation: ask yourself whether you would be able to converse rationally and transact business with that person assuming that principle governed the situation or persons involved. If not dismiss the principle as erroneous or at least deeply suspicious. For example, suppose someone proposes that things-as-they-appear-to-be are not things-as-they-really-are. I do not think I would buy a used car from this man.

That seems a fair enough test of habitual adherence to first duties of reason — or otherwise. Y’know: to truth, right reason, prudence, sound conscience, neighbour, fairness and justice, etc.

In that context, he abstracts from Thomas Reid, a list of defeatable, default rules of thumb for credulity vs skepticism:

REID’S RULES OF COMMON SENSE REALISM

1) Everything of which I am conscious really exists [–> at minimum as an object of conscious awareness, and often as a particular or abstract entity, the presumption is, if I perceive a world with entities, it is by and large real]
2) The thoughts of which I am conscious are the thoughts of a being which I call myself, my mind, my person.
3) Events that I clearly remember really did happen.
4) Our personal identity and continued existence extends as far back in time as we remember anything clearly.
5) Those things that we clearly perceive by our senses really exist and really are what we perceive them to be.
6) We have some power over our actions and over the decisions of our will.
7) The natural faculties by which we distinguish truth from error are not deceptive.
8) There is life and thought in our fellow-men with whom we converse.
9) Certain features of the face, tones of voice, and physical gestures indicate certain thoughts and dispositions of mind.
10) A certain respect should be accorded to human testimony in matters of fact, and even to human authority in matters of opinion.
11) For many outcomes that will depend on the will of man, there is a self-evident probability, greater or less according to circumstances.
12) In the phenomena of Nature, what happens will probably be like what has happened in similar circumstances.

Davidson comments:

According to Reid, anyone who doubts these principles will be incapable of rational discourse and those philosophers who profess to doubt them cannot do so sincerely and consistently. Each of these principles, if denied, can be turned back on the denier. For example, although it is not possible to justify the validity of memory (3) without reference to premises that rest on memory, to dispense with memory as usually unreliable is just not philosophically possible. Reid qualifies some of these principles as not applying in all cases, or as the assumptions that we presume to hold when we converse, which may be contradicted by subsequent experience. For instance with regard to (10) Reid believes that most men are more apt to over-rate testimony and authority than to under-rate them; which suggests to Reid that this principle retains some force even when it could be replaced by reasoning.

I endorse Reid’s principles as normally true and what we must assume to be true to engage in argument and discussion. But, as Reid acknowledges, not all may be true all the time. I thus see Reid’s principles as epistemological rather than metaphysical. Psychologists might point to such things as optical illusions, false memory, attentional blink, hallucinations and various other interesting phenomena which might throw some doubt over some of Reid’s assertions. But these are nonessential modifiers that if entertained as falsifications of these principles would lead to the collapse of all knowledge. Very few philosophers have not acknowledged that the senses can deceive us or that reason is fallible, but to say the senses consistently deceive or that reason is impotent is too big a sacrifice. That the senses can deceive and reason is fallible is good reason to be cautious in our conclusions but not a good reason to dispense with observation and reason all together.

That seems to me to be a useful backgrounder and 101, if not quite a Manifesto. I think it deserves a place in the ongoing UD series on Logic and First Principles of Reason. END

PS: It seems helpful to append on how on Opponent Processes, sensors and signal processing can use LMS sensors to generate four colour channels — Red, Yellow, Green, Blue — via suitably scaled subtraction:

Thus, we can see economising of types of sensors, enhancing resolution by keeping effective pixels in only three types and gaining enhanced colour sensitivity.

U/D Apr 17: For completeness, I add a view of the Munsell, colour spindle type colour model with gradation from Black to White as level, hue on a wheel model and saturation as a radius vector:

Where, we may envision one branch, at the hue that involves the classic artist’s earth pigment colour, Yellow-Ochre:

Further to such, observe the classic 1931 CIE tongue of colour model, with the line of purples bridging blue/violet and red along the spectrum locus arc, also with various colour gamuts for display or printing systems marked:

Such an approach, further allows us to understand how the visual system, with limitations and possibilities for error, exhibits high quality design giving us a veridical perception of an important dimension of the world, colours tied to chemical composition, chemical-physical interactions and linked quantum processes in a key octave of the electromagnetic spectrum associated with energy transitions of 1.65 – 3.10 eV, a bit short of the damaging actinic range starting with UV. Illustrating:

It seems further advisable to provide an overview of the visual system:

Such then allows us to use Reidian Common Sense to find safe sailing between the Charybdis of poor design fallacies and the Scylla of imagining ourselves into grand doubt/grand delusion on alleged ugly gulches regarding ourselves as conscious, minded, conscience guided, responsible, rational significantly free creatures credibly embodied and participating in a common physical world. (See here on the Mythological reference.)

Comments
And who says there is no truth? Again, we may differ both about what constitutes truth (is it truth or Truth), and about whether something is true or not, but I don't see anyone arguing that there is no truth.Viola Lee
April 16, 2021
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Who is arguing that everything is an illusion? KF says that is true about WJM's metaphysics, but WJM explains why that is a misrepresentation. BA often claims that atheist materialists believe that, but people here on this forum don't say that, I don't think. And who is arguing against common sense? We often argue about whether something is common sense, but that is different.Viola Lee
April 16, 2021
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like the idea “everything is an illusion
That is not actually believed by the people making it. It is meant as a disruption and should be ignored. But people are answering it as if it is serious. The logic to answer this is if everything is an illusion then this comment is also an illusion and logically there must exist things that are not an illusion. The same is used to those who say there is no truth. It is self contradictory. This argument has been made several times to answer such nonsense by Kf and others but during each thread it should be used just once and then contrary opinions ignored.jerry
April 16, 2021
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Jerry
I love the common sense argument because it assumes nearly all humans recognize the same phenomenon.
I like that also. Some of our opponents argue against the concept of common sense itself. That puts all of their thoughts outside of common human experience, and thus makes them absurd (like the idea "everything is an illusion").Silver Asiatic
April 16, 2021
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There are two things going on here which I was trying to point out. First, I do not believe Kf is communicating very well and it is due to long involved OP's and comments that are often indecipherable even in his shorter comments. I am certain Kf understands them and when finally explicated make good sense and express good will. Second, there are comments here that are proffered only because they are contrary, whether the person making them believe them or not. This does not apply to every contrary comment. One can always have a contrary opinion and that is often how a better understanding happens. But also contrary opinions are often expressed not for their potential understanding or good will but to disrupt. It is such opinions that should be answered briefly and coherently and then further ignored. That is what is not happening. The threads are often endless rehashing the same ideas and criticisms over and over. They do not lead to understanding. I don't believe Viola Lee has expressed any ideas on ID but has offered objections to several non ID ideas expressed mostly by Kf and some others. Kf has expressed a lot of concern for the future of Western civilization based on some obvious things that have happened. It is expressed in his very long and difficult to understand OP's. I happen to share this concern and so do a lot of others in our society. However, given the political polarization in the West, it is unlikely that any of these analyses and pleas would have much traction even if they were clearly presented. But they have nothing to do with ID. It just seems that ID is lined up on one side of the line and the others are on the other side. It is as if I am a fan of this particular sports team and no matter how bad they are, I am going to root for them and support them no matter what they do. Even if it leads to their own personal downfall and what they care for.jerry
April 16, 2021
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KF and BA77 are sometimes criticized for long posts and a lot of cut-paste. However, I think we have to remember the long history that ID has had, not just trying to win over opponents (which is more the goal these days) but just defending itself from hostile and ignorant attacks. The techniques that KF and BA used, I discovered, were the very best defense. Clearly, ID was caught in a no-win situation from the Darwinian majority. If we responded with short comments, just directed at the issue at hand -without a doubt, the opponent would run to another issue. Besides that, a single, clear refutation of the anti-ID position is nowhere near enough. BA wisely reasoned (as I imagine it), that we have to absolutely bombard the opposition with reference after reference, expert after expert. I think that strategy has been tremendously successful in this (still) first wave of combat. Without that barrage of support, the ID-opposition would walk away thinking they're victorious having the last word. Instead -- they walk away silenced. They have to read the pages of supporting material -- read, understand, and respond properly. That never happens. Now, year after year, even decade after decade of this -- and we do not get those frivolous attacks. Without long, detailed, abundantly documented and referenced posts - our opponents find every possible loophole. Then it's just a war of short jabs, which often end up as insults. What KF and BA and many others here (johnny, etc) are saying is - "take it seriously - here's a comprehensive view". Yes, it could get dull for long-time members here. But I do suggest reading through the long posts, then especially, clicking through to the reference documents. I have done this with BA77s links and they are truly an amazing source of knowledge. He provides a university level education for anyone willing to read and study all of the material offered. Very much the same with KF.Silver Asiatic
April 16, 2021
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Viola, I wasn't referring to you. Actually, I can't think of anyone still here who the term "skeptics" as I was thinking of it referred. I was really meaning "disruptors" of the sort who argue in bad faith. I actually hope you, and others, who oppose ID (on honest grounds) will feel welcome here. Sorry for communicating the opposite impression there.Silver Asiatic
April 16, 2021
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Typical KF responses 1. Didn't answer the questions I asked. 2. Misrepresents my responses: Writes, "As for the dismissiveness to one of the cardinal virtues,...' when I didn't dismiss prudence, but rather pointed to the problems in deciding what is prudent. 3. Condescendingly quotes definitions that don't address the specificity issues I mentioned: I know what the word "prudent" means. 4. Similarly doesn't address the specificity problem with "warrant", discuss it with words that are similarly vague and hard to pin down in practice. 5. Rather than address my comments on why one would be skeptical, goes off on a sky-is-falling rant: "By sharp contrast, skepticism is far too often an addictive, destructive intellectual bad habit; particularly when it becomes selective and hyper-ised, thus weaponised to undermine what we should acknowledge while becoming simultaneously credulous to what in all prudence we should question. For, if we are led to systematically disbelieve what we should not reject or sideline, such is directly tied to our having been led to believe what we should doubt or reject — the issue of crooked yardsticks posing as standards of straight, upright, accurate etc. ... — the issue of crooked yardsticks posing as standards of straight, upright, accurate etc. That it is common nowadays to see skepticism prized and prudence sidelined speaks volumes on the intellectual impoverishment of our day." I'll note I did not "sideline prudence", and I'm not sure I "prized skepticism": Rather than addressing what I wrote KF just used my comments as a springboard for a repeated statement of his prejudices. I refer people back to the posts 6-8. I see nothing about KF's response to me that exhibits good will, or engages in productive discussion. I'll let the reader decide who is an "honest debater" here, and who you would buy a used car from. :-)Viola Lee
April 16, 2021
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Kf, I haven't a clue what you are saying in either of your two previous comments. I understand RGB and CMYK but the rest of it is lost on me. If it is that we do not see perfectly but enough so that we can ascertain most of the outside world to survive, I understand that.
in certain cases, if you fall silent after a time, there will be the claim of victory by default.
This is the "dog barking in the night" proof which is so prevalent in the evolution debate. This I understand. I love the common sense argument because it assumes nearly all humans recognize the same phenomenon. It is not used for most of science because these explanations remained hidden from common observation. Specifically the basic laws of nature except for gravity. One exception is that most think it is common sense to recognize "natural selection" as obvious. It is obvious but only for the trivial which common sense does not recognize as being trivial.jerry
April 16, 2021
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PPS: Colour vision responds to the issue that our senses can be limited but access the real world successfully. Notice, here, the impact of a secondary peak in the light response of L cones in our eyes, on how we perceive the spectral colour Violet and why this colour is closely related to purples. Also, this case happens to illustrate high quality design, which responds to yet another recent exchange. You may want to know that RGB and CMYK etc colour schemes respond to these issues in addressing how colour displays and printers work. Which, the objectors happen to also regularly use.kairosfocus
April 16, 2021
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Jerry, kindly start with noted philosopher Alvin Plantinga and the associated internalism-externalism debates in epistemology informed by Gettier counterexamples on justification in that context. One may be internally justified to hold a belief that happens to be true but there is not objective warrant. Hence, the shift in terminology and concepts from knowledge is justified, true belief to warrant, then multiply by the soft, corrigible form of warrant for say scientific knowledge etc and you will see why I typically speak of knowledge as warranted, credibly true [so also reliable] belief. Sorry, unavoidably a technical issue. KF PS: I am specifically putting the Reidian common good sense razor on the table to more directly address those who wish to engage in endless selective hyperskepticism and worse. BTW, in certain cases, if you fall silent after a time, there will be the claim of victory by default.kairosfocus
April 16, 2021
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warrant is a gateway term
Kf, When I saw this, my thoughts were what does this sentence mean. You use the term “warrant” all the time and I have never seen another person in speech or writing use it like you do. I’m sure you could point to someone but as I said, I have never seen it used like you do. You use shorthand and cryptic terms all the time to demonstrate inescapable conclusions but because of the cryptic and proprietary nature of your descriptions the meaning is actually lost most of the time on me and I assume on most others here. When I try to get behind the shorthand to what is actually being said, it is usually extremely insightful. But most times your posts are TLDR and full of these cryptic words that I say to myself why bother. There is only so much time. I actually believe this style of writing gets in the way of communicating and definitely in the way of convincing others. You are an amazing font of knowledge but it’s often difficult to get at exactly what you are saying. By being too precise and using too much short hand at the same time in the midst of extremely long comments or OP’s you are not communicating. For example, I gave up on your color example above in the OP because I didn’t have a clue what you were trying to do.jerry
April 16, 2021
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A specific example: You write, “One piece of advice, don’t engage with the skeptics here because they are not people of good will. It just leads to endless discussions that go nowhere”
Things get written in haste here because of the nature of responding and writing comments. One word is missing from the above comment I wrote. That is “continuously” before “engage.” So it should read
One piece of advice, don’t engage continuously with the skeptics here because they are not people of good will. It just leads to endless discussions that go nowhere
So engage but not endlessly and certainly not more than a couple times and definitely don’t continuously repeat the same things.jerry
April 16, 2021
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PS: Of course, such undercuts the poor design arguments we still see far too often, directly or by suggestion. Instead, let us appreciate the visual system for what it is and how it does it.kairosfocus
April 16, 2021
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F/N: I just now appended on opponent processes, showing how LMS sensors can generate four channels of vision, RGBY, with each colour in our gamut of vision having a particular balance of lms signals. This speaks to the effectiveness of the design of the eye, not just limitations. Of course at low levels, rods take over, enhancing sensitivity. It is argued that they may contribute to colour awarenes at low light levels too. One of the tricks there, is to look off from what one wishes to observe as more rod rich areas then allow picking up the faint light. The eye and wider visual system reflect high quality design, taking advantage of subtle properties to achieve a result. KFkairosfocus
April 16, 2021
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VL, warrant is a gateway term. In context, it is tied to the understanding that knowledge is warranted, credibly true [and so, reliable] belief. That is, warrant points to the measured, good reason to take claims as true or plausible or at least provisionally acceptable as reliable enough to be acted on as if they were true. Thus, it points to the field of epistemology, as has been discussed many times here at UD -- but too often has been skimmed over. The further point is, that warrant is a significant, often technical worldviews level challenge that demands serious due diligence. By sharp contrast, skepticism is far too often an addictive, destructive intellectual bad habit; particularly when it becomes selective and hyper-ised, thus weaponised to undermine what we should acknowledge while becoming simultaneously credulous to what in all prudence we should question. For, if we are led to systematically disbelieve what we should not reject or sideline, such is directly tied to our having been led to believe what we should doubt or reject -- the issue of crooked yardsticks posing as standards of straight, upright, accurate etc. That it is common nowadays to see skepticism prized and prudence sidelined speaks volumes on the intellectual impoverishment of our day. KFkairosfocus
April 15, 2021
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F/N: As for the dismissiveness to one of the cardinal virtues, that inadvertently highlights the poverty of modern education and media. Where -- and as has already been raised at UD but doubtless was skimmed over -- prudence can be first understood via Aristotle's summary:
". . . [which aptly] defined prudence as recta ratio agibilium, 'right reason applied to practice.' The emphasis on 'right' is important . . . Prudence requires us to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong . . . If we mistake the evil for the good, we are not exercising prudence—in fact, we are showing our lack of it."
Such right reason of course involves recognition of self-evident first principles and duties of reason, strengths and limitations of our intellectual faculties as well as the limitations due to our bounded rationality and the press of the times forcing a decision now in the face of gaps in what we can know, and much more. This, too, is how prudence becomes "auriga virtutum -- the charioteer of the virtues" (as Aquinas put it); the skilled steersman who guides and controls the chariot. Or even, the ship of state (e.g. what is implicitly in view in the Proverbs: "[t]he proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel", Prov 1:1). In short, we have been 1984-ed, cut off from thousands of years of wisdom as regards core things. The amazing thing is, too often we don't even notice that the blind spots are there, in strategically telling places. KF PS: Even a glance at a good dictionary is instructive here, cf AmHD:
pru·dent (pro?od?nt) adj. 1. Careful or wise in handling practical matters; exercising good judgment or common sense: a prudent manager of money. 2. Characterized by or resulting from care or wisdom in practical matters or in planning for the future: a prudent investment. [Middle English, from Old French, from Latin pr?d?ns, pr?dent-, contraction of pr?vid?ns, present participle of pr?vid?re, to provide for; see provide.] pru?dence (pro?od?ns) n. pru?dent·ly adv. American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2016 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
kairosfocus
April 15, 2021
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Warrant is another one of those words that is very hard to make precise in practice. And given how easy it is for one to feel much more certain about what one thinks one knows than is warranted, I would say it is often prudent to be skeptical. And why are you asking me these questions, I wonder? Is this a topic for a discussion you’d like to have? Why did it come up at this particular time? And P.S. I don't think of skepticism as "lurking". I think having the sense that one might be justified in questioning the certainty about many of our beliefs ought to be front-and-center in our minds, not lurking in the corners.Viola Lee
April 15, 2021
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VL, whatever virtue may lurk in the general neighbourhood of skepticism is a matter of prudence -- which includes duty to warrant. KFkairosfocus
April 15, 2021
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I'm a prudent skeptic, in general. I think both are intellectual virtues. And prudence is one of the many words that you use frequently that really doesn't have any precise criteria and is subject to quite subjective interpretations by different people. Why did you ask me that?Viola Lee
April 15, 2021
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VL, is skepticism an intellectual virtue [as opposed to prudence]? Why or why not? KFkairosfocus
April 15, 2021
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Jerry, didn't the eye recently come up with exchanges over its capabilities and limitations, with the issue of appeal to allegedly poor design? KFkairosfocus
April 15, 2021
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SA, Reid's razor seems to be a useful way to shave away gross hyperskeptical errors and trollery, allowing us to focus discussion. "Would you buy a second hand car from this man?" -- given, how he argues -- says a lot. I think, onward, this may be very useful in dealing with such. KFkairosfocus
April 15, 2021
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VL (& attn Jerry and SA), it is unfortunate that such a polarised tangential matter came up so early. Jerry is partly right that there are trollish people in and around UD who have shown a track record of bad faith ranging up to outright slander and stalking. In my case, that has extended to dragging in fairly distant relatives on the ground here. There doubtless are others who have objections and views that are sincerely held, though sometimes that is a matter of crooked yardstick issues. The challenge of balance and that of case making informed by knowledge of the hostile climate may then require saying more than at first seems necessary, often by way of clearing brush to open up a trail. Above, that included showing the reality of SETs by example and using a case study from our most important single sense, vision. Besides I think the secondary peak of response of the red detecting aspect of vision is significant in itself, pointing to the soundness of colour wheel based models: B > V> Pu > R, with of course W in the centre. I guess, for me, considering the visual system as an instrument is interesting in itself and as illustrating credible access to the world through our limited senses. Beyond that, I have not found you, VL, to be trollish in approach. KFkairosfocus
April 15, 2021
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Jerry, I am making a case; a bare assertion would not be enough. Some doubt SETs so that is needed, and it is worth pausing to note this goes to moral SETs. The principle of credulity needs drawing out on what room for limitations and limited errors means. Colour perception especially regarding violets vs purple is a good case in point. (We are principally visual creatures.) That also extends to other colours. Along the way, the mind the body and the world clearly lurks and Derek Smith poses a useful framework. The elaboration and summary of Reid helps. KFkairosfocus
April 15, 2021
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EDTA, with E on the table, the denial ~E directly entails holding that E is mistaken. I acknowledge debt to Royce, I am not elaborating his argument. KFkairosfocus
April 15, 2021
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Viola, I think you discuss in good faith.EDTA
April 15, 2021
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Well thanks, I guess? :-) It seems to me that some of the critiques you mention apply just as much to some predominate posters on the "other side" of some of these discussions as they do to the people you are probably complaining about. I also don't think that some of the main people discussing with KF, BA, you, etc (and this would include me) are not lacking in good will, the use of reason and evidence, etc. We are coming from some different points of view, so most of them time we are just disagreeing with each other: one set is not being worse people than the others. (I can think of one "pro-ID" person who maybe doesn't fit this description.) A specific example: You write, "One piece of advice, don’t engage with the skeptics here because they are not people of good will. It just leads to endless discussions that go nowhere" Well, I've engaged on number of issues where I was skeptical of the view being put forth, and contributed to discussions that went on and on, partially because, in my opinion, the person I was discussing with engaged in some of the weaknesses you are attributing to the skeptics, including the lack of good will. So I guess I'll watch and see if there are any further discussions I want to participate in, and perhaps save posts 6-8 to refer back to.Viola Lee
April 15, 2021
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KF, >E = error exists, ~E means it is an error to assert error exists. Conventionally, doesn't "~" mean "it is not the case that _____"? So ~E would mean "it is not the case that error exists." I tried looking up Royce, but didn't find any explanation of why ~E is interpreted the former way. Can you provide a brief explanation or link as to why it's interpreted as "it is an error to assert ______"? Thanks.EDTA
April 15, 2021
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I will take these last couple of posts as a good reason to leave
Actually little if any of what I said was referring to you. Your posts are usually short and specific. I was criticizing long repetitive comments that most do not read. I don’t agree with most of what you say you believe but try to answer your posts if I think it will have value. They don’t appear to be disingenuous as many are. You also stay away from the science that ID discusses. For example, you asked about Darwinism twice and I explained it to you as best I understand it. People here use the term differently and some will rarely use it. But obviously participate or not as you see fit. Kf’s OP is about honest responses not ones we disagree with. One of the tags for this post is about “defending our civilization” which has nothing to do with ID. No one wants anyone to not participate unless they are being specifically disingenuous. For example, some commenters refuse to acknowledge that their comments have been answered and were essentially non sequiturs but do it again and again.jerry
April 15, 2021
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