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Logic and First Principles, 7: The problem of fallacies vs credible warrant

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When we deal with deeply polarised topics such as ID, we face the problem of well-grounded reasoning vs fallacies. A fallacy being a significantly persuasive but fundamentally misleading argument, often as an error of reasoning. (Cf. a classic collection here.) However, too often, fallacies are deliberately used by clever rhetors to mislead the unwary. Likewise we face the challenge of how much warrant is needed for an argument to be credible.

All of these are logical challenges.

Let us note IEP, as just linked:

A fallacy is a kind of error in reasoning. The list of fallacies below contains 224 names of the most common fallacies, and it provides brief explanations and examples of each of them. Fallacies should not be persuasive, but they often are. Fallacies may be created unintentionally, or they may be created intentionally in order to deceive other people. The vast majority of the commonly identified fallacies involve arguments, although some involve explanations, or definitions, or other products of reasoning. Sometimes the term “fallacy” is used even more broadly to indicate any false belief or cause of a false belief. The list below includes some fallacies of these sorts, but most are fallacies that involve kinds of errors made while arguing informally in natural language.
An informal fallacy is fallacious because of both its form and its content. The formal fallacies are fallacious only because of their logical form. For example, the Slippery Slope Fallacy has the following form: Step 1 often leads to step 2. Step 2 often leads to step 3. Step 3 often leads to … until we reach an obviously unacceptable step, so step 1 is not acceptable. That form occurs in both good arguments and fallacious arguments. The quality of an argument of this form depends crucially on the probabilities. Notice that the probabilities involve the argument’s content, not merely its form.

This focus on probabilistic aspects of informal fallacies brings out several aspects of the problem, for we often deal with empirical evidence and inductive reasoning rather than direct chained deductions. For deductive arguments, a chain is no stronger than the weak link, and if that link cannot be fixed, the whole argument fails to support the conclusion.

However, inductive arguments work on a different principle. Probability estimates, in a controversial context, will always be hotly contested. So, we must apply the rope principle: short, relatively weak individual fibres can be twisted together and then counter twisted as strands of a rope, giving a whole that is both long and strong.

Of chains, ropes and cumulative cases

For example, suppose that a given point has a 1% chance of being an error. Now, bring together ten mutually supportive points that sufficiently independently sustain the same conclusion. Odds that all ten are wrong in the same way are a lot lower. A simple calculation would be ([1 – 0.99]^10) ~10^-20. This is the basis of the classic observation that in the mouth of two or three independent witnesses, a word is established.

However, many will be inclined to set up a double-standard of warrant, an arbitrarily high one for conclusions they wish to reject vs a much softer one for those they are inclined to accept. Nowadays, this is often presented as “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”

In fact, any claim simply requires adequate evidence.

Any demand for more than this cometh of evil.

This is of course the fallacy of selective hyperskepticism, a bane of discussions on ID topics. (The strength of will to reject can reach the level of dismissing logical-mathematical demonstration, often by finding some excuse to studiously ignore and side step as if it were not on the table.)

Of course, an objection will be: you are overly credulous. That is a claim, one that requires adequate warrant. Where, in fact, if one disbelieves what one should (per adequate warrant), that is as a rule because one also believes what one should not (per, lack of adequate warrant), which serves as a controlling belief. Where, if falsity is made the standard for accepting or rejecting claims, then the truth cannot ever be accepted, as it will run counter to the false.

All of this is seriously compounded by the tendency in a relativistic age to reduce truth to opinion, thence to personalise and polarise, often by implying fairly serious ad hominems. This can then be compounded by the “he hit back first” tactic.

This also raises the issue of the so-called concern troll. That is one who claims to support side A, but will always be found undermining it without adequate warrant, often using the tactics just noted. Such a persona in fact is enabling B by undermining A. This is a notorious agit prop tactic that works because it exploits passive aggressive behaviour patterns.

The answer to all of this is to understand how arguments work and how they fail to work, recognising the possibility of error and of participants who are in error (or are in worse than error) then focussing the merits of the case.

So, as we proceed, let us bear in mind the significance of adequate warrant, and the problem of selective hyperskepticism. END

PS: As it is relevant to the discussion that emerged, let me lay out the path to intellectual decay of our civilisation, adapting Schaeffer:

Extending (and correcting) Schaeffer’s vision of the course of western thought, worldviews and culture, C1 – 21

H’mm: Geostrategic picture:

As Scuzzaman highlights the slippery slope ratchet, let me put up the Overton Window (in the context of a ratchet that is steadily cranking it leftward on the usual political spectrum) — where, fallacies are used to create a Plato’s cave shadow-show world in which decision-making becomes ever more irrational, out of contact with reality:

Likewise, here is a model of malinvestment-led, self-induced economic disaster due to foolishly tickling a dragon’s tail and pushing an economy into unsustainable territory, building on Hayek:

Let me add, a view of the alternative political dynamics and spectrum:

U/d b for clarity, nb Nil

PPS: Mobius strip cut 1/2 way vs 1/3 way across vid:

Comments
Hazel said:
I agree. I have never said abstractions are imaginary or fictional. Abstractions are real. The question is where does their reality lie?, and the answer I am offering is that they exist in our minds.
Until you define "mind" and what it means to "exist in mind", you are begging the question.William J Murray
January 23, 2019
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Ed George said:
So, the fact that his assumptions and premises are flawed are irrelevant?
I must have missed where you (or someone) showed that his premises are flawed. Would you care to direct me to that (or those) posts?William J Murray
January 23, 2019
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EG, with all due respect, you have continued to argue by assertions instead of engaging substantially, starting with the significance of the law of identity and the associated observation that in absence of distinguishing characteristics, entities W1 and W2 are in effect different labels for W, the same entity. Now, you have in effect asserted errors on my part on your own authority, ipse dixit. In this context, that fails, you need to provide warrant. And if you dispute LOI, you need to do so without using distinction of alphanumeric characters to make your point. Now, you point to 266, by implication demanding a point by point response -- where, you need to note those I gave above. At any rate:
[EG, 266:] >>KF EG, it is obvious that the answer to a demonstration is a counter demonstration.>> a: this was a response to your earlier remark, and in the context of a serious discussion it is correct. If you object to a demonstration, provide a rebuttal, or stand as refuted. >>No, it is not obvious.>> b: This reveals dismissal of a commonplace principle of serious discussion, it falls of its own weight. >> Another answer could be that the premises and assumptions used for your demonstration are flawed, which has been pointed out repeatedly through this 250+ comment thread.>> c: repeated, insubstantial assertions do not constitute warrant. d: Kindly observe my response at 271:
EG, again, we are dealing with warrant on logic, facts, first principles. I am sure you have seen logical cases in school and know that p => q, p so q is a logically valid, chainable pattern of argument. It is also the case that ~q => ~p in such a case. The challenge then is, is the denial of q absurd and/or is the denial of p. If you are a serious participant in this discussion, you will know that a common proof pattern is to reduce an argument to absurdity. That is what has always been on the table and it is one reason why the injection of relativistic or subjectivist rhetoric pivoting on the Leff grand sez who fallacy fails. When a demonstration on good premises is on the table, it settles a matter by force of logic. If you wish instead to reject the conclusion to deny the premises, you face two potential points of absurdity: ~q may be false, and ~p may be false. In the case on the table, the start point is the principle of distinct identity and its corollaries. No one can use language or reason coherently without using the LOI. In your case, if that is what you want to try, notice that you are forced to rely on distinct alphanumeric characters arrayed in distinct locations, in strings. You literally cannot make your points without implicitly relying on the premises, which is exactly why LOI and corollaries, including the natural numbers (which then ground Z, Q, R, C etc) are embedded in any distinct world and are necessary, abstract entities. Neither in this thread nor elsewhere have you or any other objector managed to provide a successful ~q, where the attempt will run into the absurdity of relying on distinct identity to argue for its denial. I strongly suggest that you reconstruct your reasoning on a sounder footing and refrain from further projection of closed mindedness.
>> I have also mentioned that Hazel and I agree with you more than we disagree with you.>> e: agreement or disagreement are immaterial, substantial warrant for claims is required, which has not been provided across many weeks on multiple threads. f: For record, I take from 257, what you or another party would need to refute:
1: Consider reality, and within it some distinct entity, say a bright red ball on a table, B. Thus the rest of reality is the complement to B, ~B. Reality, R = {B|~B} 2: Immediately, B is itself (distinctly identifiable i/l/o its core, distinguishing characteristics), this is the fundamental law of thought, Law of Identity, which sets up the dichotomy and its corollaries. 3: Clearly, no x in R can be B AND ~B. Law of non-contradiction, a corollary. 4: Likewise, any x in R must be in B or in ~B, not between them or separate from them: B X-OR ~B, law of the excluded middle. The second corollary. 5: Now, ponder a possible world, W, a sufficiently complete description of a possible [coherent!] state of affairs in reality,i.e. in this or any other world that could be or is. 6: So far, we have set up a framework for discussion, including pointing out the key first principles of right reason that we must use so soon as we type out a message using distinct characters, etc. These are not provable, they are inevitable, inescapable and thus have a right to be presumed first truths of right reason. 7: Now, W, holds distinct identity, it is a particular possible world, different from all others. That is, if claimed entities W1 and W2 are not discernibly different in any respect, they are just different labels for the same thing W. 8: Notice, all along we are trafficking in statements that imply or assert that certain things are so or are not so, i.e. propositions and that relationship of accurate description of reality that we term truth. 9: All of these are not merely concrete particulars or mere labels, they are abstracta which are inevitable in reasoning. Indeed, the relationship of intentionality implicit in attaching a name is an abstractum, too. 10: Now, W is one of infinitely many possible states of affairs, and shares many attributes in common with others. So, we mark the in-common [genus] and the distinct [differentia]. 11: So, we freely identify some unique aspect of W, A. W, then is: W = {A|~A}. 12: But already, we see rationally discernible abstract entities, principles and facts or relationship, quantity and structure; i.e. the SUBSTANCE of Mathematics. Namely, 13: first, that which is in W but external to A and ~A is empty, as is the partition: nullity. 14: Likewise, A is a distinct unit, as is ~A [which last is obviously a complex unity]. This gives us unity and duality. 15: So, simply on W being a distinct possible world, we must have in it nullity, unity and duality. These are abstract structural and quantitative properties embedded in the framework for W. 16: This is, strictly, already enough for the claim that there is an abstract substance of mathematical character that is necessarily embedded in any possible world, which is itself an abstract entity, being a collection of propositions. In at least one case such are actualised, i.e. it is possible to have an accurate summary of our world. 17: However, much more is necessarily present, once we see the force of the von Neumann succession of ordinals (which substantiates Peano’s succession), actually presenting the natural counting numbers starting from the set that collects nothing, which is itself an undeniable abstract entity: {} –> 0 {0} –> 1 {0,1) –> 2 {0,1,2} –> 3 . . . {0,1,2,3 . . . } –> w [first transfinite ordinal] etc, without limit 18: We here have N. Define for some n in N, that -n is such that n + (-n) = 0, and we equally necessarily have Z. Again, rooted in the distinct identity of a world, we are studying, exploring, discovering, warranting (as opposed to proving), not creating through our culturally influenced symbolism and discussion. 19: Similarly, identify the ratio n:m, and we attain the rationals, Q. 20: Use power series expansions to capture whole part + endless sum of reducing fractions converging on any given value such as pi or e or phi etc, and we have the reals, R, thus also the continuum. Where, from Z on, we have has entities with magnitude and direction, vectors. 21: Now, propose an operation i*, rotation pivoting on 0 through a right angle. This gives us i*R, an orthogonal axis with continuum, and where for any r in R+, i*r is on the new [y] axis. 22: Now too, go i*i*r, and we find -r. That is we have that i = sqrt(-1), which here has a natural sense as a vector rotation. Any coordinate in the xy plane as described is now seen as a position vector relative to the origin. 23: We have abstract planar space, thus room for algebraic and geometrical contemplation of abstract, mathematically perfect figures. For instance consider the circle r^2 = x^2 + y^2, centred on o. 24: In its upper half let us ponder a triangle standing at -r [A] and r [B] with third vertex at C on the upper arc. This is a right angle triangle with all associated spatial properties, starting with angle sum triangle and Pythagorean relationships, trig identities etc. Between these two figures and extensions, the world of planar figures opens up. 25: Extend rotations to ijk unit vectors and we are at 3-d abstract “flat” space. All of this, tracing to distinct identity. 26: We may bring in Quaternions and Octonions, the latter now being explored as a context for particle physics. 27: The Wigner Math-Physics gap is bridged, at world-root level. 28: Similarly, we have established a large body of intelligible, rational entities and principles of structure and quantity implicit in distinct identity. Such are the substance we discover by exploration (which is culturally influenced) rather than invent. 29: Where it is an obvious characteristic of invention, that it is temporally bound past-wards, Until some time t, entity e did not exist. Then, after t, having been created, it now exists. 30: The above abstracta are implicit in the distinct identity of a world and so have existed so long as reality has. That is, without past bound. (It can readily be shown that if a world now is, some reality always was.)
>>It is just that we are approaching the issue from different perspectives.>> g: Difference of perspectives translates to divergence of presuppositions and first principles or truths. In this case, the pivotal truth, distinct identity and its law of being import that a distinct possible world must have some distinguishable feature A, are things that are at root literally undeniable. The attempt to deny will inevitably resort to using such, just to post text. >>Just for the record my views align largely with those that Hazel has presented much better than I can.>> h: In short, you are playing the cheerleading sidekick. i: I have responded substantially, and H has not had a material counter. WJM's summary applies. >>KF, on a side note, might I suggest that you put a leash on ET? He often has very thought provoking things to say but intersperses them with things like comment 263. Nobody has treated him or anyone else like he treats those he disagrees with.>> j: ET has been banned for cause before, if he merits it, those who hold that power will not hesitate to do so again. k: Meanwhile I have RW to attend to and insomnia power only goes so far. I have already recently cautioned ET, which you have overlooked. l: Here is 263:
Ed George: That statement [by KF, to effect that a demonstration requires a counter demonstration and that mere opinions to the contrary are of no avail] asserts that the person making it will not accept any argument to the contrary. No, it does not. My you are one desperate person.
m: You have made an unjustified, loaded insinuation of closed mindedness in reply to a simple statement that reasoned argument of substantial character obviously must be answered by substantial argument on the merits. That's why I disagree and dismissive remarks targetting first principles of reason are not enough. n: This is an ad hominem, subtle form, and it has been sustained in teeth of repeated correction. o: The first part of ET's reply is exactly correct, your assertion of closed mindedness on my part is an unjustified false accusation, a loaded projection which may well fail the mirror principle test for defence mechanisms. p: Where, that sort of tactic is in fact a common device of the concern troll, again another point where you would be well advised to adjust your behaviour. q: ET then characterises you as desperate. In the context of weeks of sustained dismissive remarks which have not been substantiated and given repeated endorsement of failed arguments, that may well be fair, if harsh comment. Harshness being mitigated by persistence. r: You would be well advised to note that WJM's policy of deleting insubstantial persistent dismissive, distractive commentary is under consideration. Part of why I am tolerating is that this thread is in root about fallacies, and cases in point end up inadvertently supporting the main point. >> Being the thread owner, you are free to allow whatever behavior you like, but allowing it reflects poorly on the argument you are trying to make.>> r: Again, a resort to emotive appeals of distractive character.
In the end, it is clear that you are unable or unwilling to substantially engage the technical issue imported into the thread from previous discussions. You have projected an unjustified personal attack, accusing me of the fallacy of the closed mind when I have repeatedly invited a substantial counter argument, with but little response on the merits. You have provided examples of subtler fallacies, in effect, which is a useful if inadvertent service. KFkairosfocus
January 23, 2019
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KF, given your lack of response to my comment at 266 I can only conclude that you support and condone ET’s continued insults. That is very telling.Ed George
January 22, 2019
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WJM
Until you can logically refute the validity of KF’s argument for (1) the warrant he has described including necessary first principles and (2) the reason no other warrant will do, OR until you provide an alternate system of warrant that supports an alternate view on the issues under discussion, you have ceded the point.
So, the fact that his assumptions and premises are flawed are irrelevant?Ed George
January 22, 2019
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Ed George and Hazel, Until you can logically refute the validity of KF's argument for (1) the warrant he has described including necessary first principles and (2) the reason no other warrant will do, OR until you provide an alternate system of warrant that supports an alternate view on the issues under discussion, you have ceded the point. Simply disagreeing or claiming there may other arguments or systems of sufficient, credible warrant is not a refutation nor is it providing a reasoned alternative. That's the point of what KF is saying - there is no other credible system of warrant, period, and that necessary system of warrant has logical ramifications that must be accept or reason must be abandoned. Just saying that "other philosophers disagree" provides you no cover. You either make your case (counter-argument) or you have ceded the point. "Other people disagree with you" and "This is problem that can't be solved" are not counter-arguments.William J Murray
January 22, 2019
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ET, notice the persistent context shift from substance of structure and quantity manifest in any possible, distinct world and our ideas about it. Of course, from the outset I have stressed that dual character by contrasting substance demonstrably embedded in the logic of being of any possible world and our culturally influenced study. When a demonstration is on the table mere opinions to the contrary avail nothing. A counter demonstration is called for. Persistent absence may be connected to how such an argument must implicitly rely on the key premise of my argument, distinct identity. LOI is truly the start-point of reasoning. KFkairosfocus
January 22, 2019
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hazel:
But the relationship between the concepts of math in our minds and their application to the physical world is precisely the philosophical issue under discussion, …
And here I thought that the scientific discussion was about whether or not mathematics was invented or discovered by us- and whether or not mathematics permeates the universe because the universe was designed using mathematics.ET
January 22, 2019
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H, cf 257 with 248 (with 247), also 240, 241 and far more. KF PS: Note onward OP on how such embedding of structure and quantity leads to interesting physical results: https://uncommondescent.com/physics/logic-first-principles-8-bridging-the-wigner-math-physics-gap-with-help-from-phase-configuration-state-space/kairosfocus
January 22, 2019
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I did address. I hereby invoke 238 and 253.hazel
January 22, 2019
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H, there is a demonstration on the table; the last being an updated summary given various points made previously, e.g. I took time to explicitly go back to first principles of reason. Note, I started from the import of a distinct possible world existing, which leads to N, from which Z, Q, R, C and related matters follow. That is, we start from the root of being. Instead of dismissing, kindly address. KFkairosfocus
January 22, 2019
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kf writes,
N will therefore be embedded in the fabric of any distinctly identifiable world W, with further things flowing therefrom. Such will clearly be antecedent to our existence much less our mathematical explorations.
You have not shown that these statements logically follow from the existence of pure mathematics. N may apply to certain aspects of the world as we experience it, but that is different than being embedded in it. I understand that your position has a long and important place in philosophy, but it is not "demonstrated warrant on the table." It is one of a number of philosophical perspectives that have been offered by substantial philosophers over the centuries.hazel
January 22, 2019
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H, on the table, again, is an argument that starts from distinct identity and shows that N will therefore be embedded in the fabric of any distinctly identifiable world W, with further things flowing therefrom. Such will clearly be antecedent to our existence much less our mathematical explorations. Where, numbers are necessarily abstract entities that through the associated logic of being, will affect many physical realities. I have often put up, gear trains, which inevitably pivot on pi. The issue is not so much, we can reason and invent, but there are rational principles and abstract entities demonstrated to be framework to any possible world that manifest structure and quantity, the substance of mathematics. KF PS: It seems from arguments made that EG objects to the probative force of arguments on first principles of reason and being. Indeed, it seems manifest that he just tried to debate the point that the answer to a demonstration, patently, is a counter-demonstration.kairosfocus
January 22, 2019
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I have never denied the validity of logic, kf, and I agree that "No one can use language or reason coherently" without it. Several time I have pointed to the rational ability of our minds to logically manipulate concepts as a key component in human understanding. This is not in question. I'm guessing Ed would agree with me about this, but he can speak up if not. However, the existence of logic in our reasoning does not mean that the abstractions to which we apply that logic are “embedded in any distinct world and are necessary, abstract entities.” That is the point of disagreement. That is a philosophical premise, but it does not follow by any necessary logical chain from the presence of our use of logic in our reasoning process. Yes, starting with the idea of distinct identity as formalized in the unit amount and using the fundamental laws of logic, we have mathematics. But the relationship between the concepts of math in our minds and their application to the physical world is precisely the philosophical issue under discussion, and it in itself can not be resolved by pure logic alone. Hence different perspectives.hazel
January 22, 2019
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EG, again, we are dealing with warrant on logic, facts, first principles. I am sure you have seen logical cases in school and know that p => q, p so q is a logically valid, chainable pattern of argument. It is also the case that ~q => ~p in such a case. The challenge then is, is the denial of q absurd and/or is the denial of p. If you are a serious participant in this discussion, you will know that a common proof pattern is to reduce an argument to absurdity. That is what has always been on the table and it is one reason why the injection of relativistic or subjectivist rhetoric pivoting on the Leff grand sez who fallacy fails. When a demonstration on good premises is on the table, it settles a matter by force of logic. If you wish instead to reject the conclusion to deny the premises, you face two potential points of absurdity: ~q may be false, and ~p may be false. In the case on the table, the start point is the principle of distinct identity and its corollaries. No one can use language or reason coherently without using the LOI. In your case, if that is what you want to try, notice that you are forced to rely on distinct alphanumeric characters arrayed in distinct locations, in strings. You literally cannot make your points without implicitly relying on the premises, which is exactly why LOI and corollaries, including the natural numbers (which then ground Z, Q, R, C etc) are embedded in any distinct world and are necessary, abstract entities. Neither in this thread nor elsewhere have you or any other objector managed to provide a successful ~q, where the attempt will run into the absurdity of relying on distinct identity to argue for its denial. I strongly suggest that you reconstruct your reasoning on a sounder footing and refrain from further projection of closed mindedness. KFkairosfocus
January 22, 2019
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Whatever, Ed. In science and math the only way to go is through evidence. But I understand why you wouldn't want to go that route.ET
January 22, 2019
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EG
Another answer could be that the premises and assumptions used for your demonstration are flawed,…
ET in response
Too subjective to be of any use.
The assumptionsand premises we use to make arguments is a highly subjective process. Absolutely necessary, but subjective none the less. For example, in analytical chemistry we assume that the procedure we use accounts for all possible interferences. However, we also know that, at a fundamental level, this is not true. That is why we always report our analytical results with measurement uncertainty.Ed George
January 22, 2019
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Perhaps if Ed George wouldn't make so many bald assertions he wouldn't feel attacked when he his soundly dismissed. Perhaps if Ed George didn't think his bald assertions were actual arguments and evidence, he wouldn't feel attacked when he is corrected. The common denominator? Ed George and bald assertionsET
January 22, 2019
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Ed George:
No, it is not obvious.
It is to anyone who understands evidence
Another answer could be that the premises and assumptions used for your demonstration are flawed,...
Too subjective to be of any use.
Nobody has treated him or anyone else like he treats those he disagrees with.
Demonstrably FALSE. And AGAIN, it has nothing to do with mere disagreement. And you still don't have an argument. But your whining is very telling.ET
January 22, 2019
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KF
EG, it is obvious that the answer to a demonstration is a counter demonstration.
No, it is not obvious. Another answer could be that the premises and assumptions used for your demonstration are flawed, which has been pointed out repeatedly through this 250+ comment thread. I have also mentioned that Hazel and I agree with you more than we disagree with you. It is just that we are approaching the issue from different perspectives. Just for the record my views align largely with those that Hazel has presented much better than I can. KF, on a side note, might I suggest that you put a leash on ET? He often has very thought provoking things to say but intersperses them with things like comment 263. Nobody has treated him or anyone else like he treats those he disagrees with. Being the thread owner, you are free to allow whatever behavior you like, but allowing it reflects poorly on the argument you are trying to make.Ed George
January 22, 2019
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H, once demonstrative warrant is on the table, indeed OPINIONS to the contrary avail nothing. A counter demonstration or a p => q, ~q so ~p that does not end in absurdity would be a different story. But the mater on the table starts with first principles of reason and being which are for the most part self-evident. this meaning that they are true, seen as true by one with the experience and insight to understand, are seen as necessarily so on pain of immediate, patent absurdity on the attempted denial. See how far you get trying to deny the principle of distinct identity while relying on said distinction to communicate using distinct symbols. Note, the identity of any world leads to numerical and structural consequences, where numbers are inherently abstract, and where perforce, such antedates our existence and cannot be a creation. The resistance without counter-demonstration, but including loaded suggestions is a tell. KFkairosfocus
January 22, 2019
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EG, it is obvious that the answer to a demonstration is a counter demonstration. That you resort to opinion games suggests that you do not have such, but do not wish to acknowledge the probative force of an argument that literally starts with the first principles of reason and being. Instead you try to create a loaded projection of closed mindedness. That speaks, volumes. KFkairosfocus
January 22, 2019
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Ed George:
That statement asserts that the person making it will not accept any argument to the contrary.
No, it does not. My you are one desperate person.ET
January 22, 2019
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ET
The evidence says there is demonstrative warrant on the table
That statement asserts that the person making it will not accept any argument to the contrary. A more appropriate statement would be “The evidence suggests there is demonstrative warrant on the table.”Ed George
January 22, 2019
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The evidence says there is demonstrative warrant on the tableET
January 22, 2019
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re kf’s response to Ed’s question at 256: Kd writes, “It is therefore to the merits of fact and logic that we must always go.” Yes, but still individual people still have to judge whether adequate “merits of fact and logic” have been presented, which gets us back to Ed’s original question. Kf claims that he has put “demonstrative warrant on the table”, and that therefore “opinions to the contrary avail nothing”, apparently dismissing arguments against his position or for any other position as mere opinions. But who judges whether kf has in fact put “demonstrative warrant on the table” is still an issue. For the person who puts the facts and logic on the table to be the person who then judges they are impeccably sound is circular. Of course we are inclined to think that the facts and logic we ourselves are presenting are sound, but it is other’s judgment of that that eventually leads to the acceptance of that soundness. If I offer a proof of something in math, I expect that others will review my work, and either agree, or perhaps find a flaw in my reasoning. Given that the subjects we are talking about are philosophical about math, and not math itself, our “facts and logic” includes propositions which are themselves a matter of perspective, not subject to proof: we all have some philosophical opinions that provide some framework for the facts and logic we assess. So for kf to say of the issues we have been discussing, “This is my philosophical perspective, and these are my supporting facts and logic: I think they are solid and I present them for your consideration” is reasonable. For him to say that “I have put ‘demonstrative warrant on the table’, and that therefore ‘opinions to the contrary avail nothing’,” is not reasonable.hazel
January 22, 2019
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kf writes, "Abstract does not imply imaginary, fictional, not real." I agree. I have never said abstractions are imaginary or fictional. Abstractions are real. The question is where does their reality lie?, and the answer I am offering is that they exist in our minds. The things that abstractions are abstractions of can be physical real, but the abstraction never encapsulates all of reality: that is one of the main points of Wigner, and mine, above.hazel
January 22, 2019
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H, argumentum ad quantum is common and too often goes beyond what is warranted. A key result is, once things are scaled to macro levels, Q-results must reduce to classical ones. Further to this, we have the issue of observable empirical reliability as the context of science. The formal quantum result of position-momentum or energy-time uncertainty etc at macro scale have effectively no practical import. I note too that the Weak Argument correctives address other sides of the appeal to quantum results, including how first principles of reason are not obviated by Q-th. KF PS: Abstract entities are those things which are not concrete and tangible. truth is intangible, a relationship between description and its meaning referred to states of actual affairs, for example. Sets and other collectives are abstract and can collect abstracta including subsets as above. Numbers, which we can take as effectively defined per von Neumann and extensions, are abstracta. The counting trick exploits the ordinal succession, which is another abstract entity. And so forth. Abstract does not imply imaginary, fictional, not real.kairosfocus
January 22, 2019
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EG [attn, H], that you still ask WHO decides that demonstrative warrant on the table is the fatal tell. Leff's fallacy of the grand sez who. Let me therefore cite Aristotle in The Rhetoric, Bk I Ch 2 [yes, 2300+ years ago -- this is Alexander the Great's tutor: Socrates --> Plato --> Aristotle --> Alexander], on the three levers of persuasion, pathos, ethos, logos:
Of the modes of persuasion furnished by the spoken word there are three kinds. The first kind depends on the personal character of the speaker [ethos]; the second on putting the audience into a certain frame of mind [pathos]; the third on the proof, or apparent proof, provided by the words of the speech itself [logos]. Persuasion is achieved by the speaker's personal character when the speech is so spoken as to make us think him credible . . . Secondly, persuasion may come through the hearers, when the speech stirs their emotions. Our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are not the same as when we are pained and hostile . . . Thirdly, persuasion is effected through the speech itself when we have proved a truth or an apparent truth by means of the persuasive arguments suitable to the case in question . . . . [Aristotle, The Rhetoric, Book I, Ch. 2. Cf. summary with scholarly observations at http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-rhetoric/ and http://www.public.iastate.edu/~honeyl/Rhetoric/index.html for a hypertext version of the book]
Appeals to our passions, perceptions and felt reactions are of no more weight than the soundness of underlying judgements. Those to the credibility of an authority or presenter hold no more weight than the merits of the underlying case. It is therefore to the merits of fact and logic that we must always go. And in context, your heaping praise on H's recent summary while studiously side-stepping the corrective at 248 above is a further tell. You are clearly mostly cheerleading and sniping rather than making consistent substantial contributions. Now, in 248, I only alluded to the demonstration on the table, so let me supply the lack once again, before challenging you to warrant your objection.
1: Consider reality, and within it some distinct entity, say a bright red ball on a table, B. Thus the rest of reality is the complement to B, ~B. Reality, R = {B|~B} 2: Immediately, B is itself (distinctly identifiable i/l/o its core, distinguishing characteristics), this is the fundamental law of thought, Law of Identity, which sets up the dichotomy and its corollaries. 3: Clearly, no x in R can be B AND ~B. Law of non-contradiction, a corollary. 4: Likewise, any x in R must be in B or in ~B, not between them or separate from them: B X-OR ~B, law of the excluded middle. The second corollary. 5: Now, ponder a possible world, W, a sufficiently complete description of a possible [coherent!] state of affairs in reality,i.e. in this or any other world that could be or is. 6: So far, we have set up a framework for discussion, including pointing out the key first principles of right reason that we must use so soon as we type out a message using distinct characters, etc. These are not provable, they are inevitable, inescapable and thus have a right to be presumed first truths of right reason. 7: Now, W, holds distinct identity, it is a particular possible world, different from all others. That is, if claimed entities W1 and W2 are not discernibly different in any respect, they are just different labels for the same thing W. 8: Notice, all along we are trafficking in statements that imply or assert that certain things are so or are not so, i.e. propositions and that relationship of accurate description of reality that we term truth. 9: All of these are not merely concrete particulars or mere labels, they are abstracta which are inevitable in reasoning. Indeed, the relationship of intentionality implicit in attaching a name is an abstractum, too. 10: Now, W is one of infinitely many possible states of affairs, and shares many attributes in common with others. So, we mark the in-common [genus] and the distinct [differentia]. 11: So, we freely identify some unique aspect of W, A. W, then is: W = {A|~A}. 12: But already, we see rationally discernible abstract entities, principles and facts or relationship, quantity and structure; i.e. the SUBSTANCE of Mathematics. Namely, 13: first, that which is in W but external to A and ~A is empty, as is the partition: nullity. 14: Likewise, A is a distinct unit, as is ~A [which last is obviously a complex unity]. This gives us unity and duality. 15: So, simply on W being a distinct possible world, we must have in it nullity, unity and duality. These are abstract structural and quantitative properties embedded in the framework for W. 16: This is, strictly, already enough for the claim that there is an abstract substance of mathematical character that is necessarily embedded in any possible world, which is itself an abstract entity, being a collection of propositions. In at least one case such are actualised, i.e. it is possible to have an accurate summary of our world. 17: However, much more is necessarily present, once we see the force of the von Neumann succession of ordinals (which substantiates Peano's succession), actually presenting the natural counting numbers starting from the set that collects nothing, which is itself an undeniable abstract entity:
{} --> 0 {0} --> 1 {0,1) --> 2 {0,1,2} --> 3 . . . {0,1,2,3 . . . } --> w [first transfinite ordinal] etc, without limit
18: We here have N. Define for some n in N, that -n is such that n + (-n) = 0, and we equally necessarily have Z. Again, rooted in the distinct identity of a world, we are studying, exploring, discovering, warranting (as opposed to proving), not creating through our culturally influenced symbolism and discussion. 19: Similarly, identify the ratio n:m, and we attain the rationals, Q. 20: Use power series expansions to capture whole part + endless sum of reducing fractions converging on any given value such as pi or e or phi etc, and we have the reals, R, thus also the continuum. Where, from Z on, we have has entities with magnitude and direction, vectors. 21: Now, propose an operation i*, rotation pivoting on 0 through a right angle. This gives us i*R, an orthogonal axis with continuum, and where for any r in R+, i*r is on the new [y] axis. 22: Now too, go i*i*r, and we find -r. That is we have that i = sqrt(-1), which here has a natural sense as a vector rotation. Any coordinate in the xy plane as described is now seen as a position vector relative to the origin. 23: We have abstract planar space, thus room for algebraic and geometrical contemplation of abstract, mathematically perfect figures. For instance consider the circle r^2 = x^2 + y^2, centred on o. 24: In its upper half let us ponder a triangle standing at -r [A] and r [B] with third vertex at C on the upper arc. This is a right angle triangle with all associated spatial properties, starting with angle sum triangle and Pythagorean relationships, trig identities etc. Between these two figures and extensions, the world of planar figures opens up. 25: Extend rotations to ijk unit vectors and we are at 3-d abstract "flat" space. All of this, tracing to distinct identity. 26: We may bring in Quaternions and Octonions, the latter now being explored as a context for particle physics. 27: The Wigner Math-Physics gap is bridged, at world-root level. 28: Similarly, we have established a large body of intelligible, rational entities and principles of structure and quantity implicit in distinct identity. Such are the substance we discover by exploration (which is culturally influenced) rather than invent. 29: Where it is an obvious characteristic of invention, that it is temporally bound past-wards, Until some time t, entity e did not exist. Then, after t, having been created, it now exists. 30: The above abstracta are implicit in the distinct identity of a world and so have existed so long as reality has. That is, without past bound. (It can readily be shown that if a world now is, some reality always was.)
I have expanded in more details. KFkairosfocus
January 21, 2019
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KF
EG, when demonstrative warrant is on the table, opinions to the contrary avail nothing.
But who decides that “demonstrative warrant” is on the table? I think it has been mentioned before, but just because you have declared “demonstrative warrant” doesn’t make it so.Ed George
January 21, 2019
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