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Logic and First Principles, 9: Can we be “certain” of any of our views or conclusions?

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Currently, one of the objections on the table to a demonstration on how certain structural and quantitative entities are implicit in there being a distinct possible world is the rejection, dismissal or doubting of certainty of conclusions. This again reflects one of the many problems with thought in our day.

Let’s add a quip, for those who doubt that warranted (as opposed to ill-advised) certainty is possible: are you CERTAIN that we cannot be justifiably certain?

Accordingly, I took the opportunity to comment in the fallacies discussion thread:

[KF, FDT 304:] One of the themes that keeps surfacing is “certainty,” which sets up the issues: warrant, knowledge, reliability, credibility, and responsibility.


Given that we ever so often use knowledge in a sense that is less than absolute, irrefutable certainty, as in science, I have put on the table that knowledge speaks of warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Obviously, this is normally provisional, but it leaves open cases where the degree of warrant and credibility are such that these claims are utterly certainly true and beyond doubt, save by the irresponsible. That is where self-evident truths and inescapable first principles of right reason live. Such includes mathematical truths of the order

||| + || –> |||||.


Thus, we see that warrant comes in degrees and must attain to some degree of reliability that lends the credibility that leads to responsible belief. This may be less than certain, e.g. by and large scientific theories and models are not certain, they are open to correction on many grounds. Yes, Science is at a relatively low rung on the warrant ladder. Observations of science are another matter, they carry with them the credibility of witness, which can be morally certain.


So, certainty is now on the table, and just like warrant (from which it derives) it comes in degrees depending on cases, context and subject matter.


Moral certainty is a case where the grounds of warrant are sufficiently strong that one would be derelict of duty if one were to willfully treat something of that degree of credibility as though it were false, when something of great moment or value is on the table. For example, in a criminal case under Common Law jurisdictions, one must prove beyond reasonable doubt — this is a criterion of responsibility in the context of duty to justice. In commercial or civil matters, preponderance of evidence is a lower standard.


Beyond that everyday sense of certainty, lie the cases where in effect there is reason to believe that the judgement that x is the case has passed beyond room for reasonable, responsible doubt and is utterly unlikely to be reversed; something is true and is so grounded that there is no real room for doubt, but is not a necessary truth — one that must be so in this and all other possible worlds. Then, there is self-evidence, where x is so, is seen to be so by one with enough experience to understand the claim properly, and is such that the denial is immediately, patently absurd. That error exists, is a case in point, the attempt to deny instantly exemplifies that error exists. Likewise, one cannot be deluded that s/he is conscious, as to doubt is an act of consciousness.


Regrettably, we are so situated that it is impossible to build a whole worldview up from matters that are at least self-evidently so.


However, this degree of warranted certainty (and what lies beyond) serves to provide yardsticks and plumblines to test our worldview cores. For example, that error exists is undeniably true and warranted to self-evident certainty. This confirms that truth beyond opinion exists.

Likewise, that some truths are intelligible, accessible by reason. As we observe and experience that error exists means that observation and experience can access truth. Similarly, we have warrant to undeniable certainty, so certain knowledge exists. If certain knowledge exists, knowledge (embracing weaker senses) exists also.


Further to this, beliefs, opinions, ideologies and worldviews that assume, argue, opine and assert that truth, or knowledge, or warrant or certain knowledge do not exist or that claims to such only serve “intolerance” and oppressor-classes — their name is Legion, are swept away wholesale as error. And yes, for cause I have the fell work of cultural marxism squarely in my sights, along with radical relativism and radical subjectivism.


Moreover, having warranted this point to certainty, I freely hold there is demonstrative warrant and that for cause opinion and rhetorical objection to the contrary avail nothing. Though in a politically correct era, many will take the vapours and will be frightened that I have announced a policy of right wing, Christofascist totalitarianism dressed up in Torquemada’s robes. That is how far ever so many in our civilisation have been misled.


That agit prop induced and/or mal-education induced reaction is unwarranted, the issue is to act responsibly and rationally in light of duty to truth, right reason, prudence, justice, etc.


However, there are higher yet degrees of warrant and certainty of knowledge.


Some truths are necessary, certain, intelligible and knowable to utter, incorrigible certainty and even absolute: the truth, the whole truth on a material matter, nothing but the truth on the material matter. Where, a necessary truth will be so in this or any other possible world. And what is more, many such truths are intelligible and warranted to similarly necessary certainty. Many core principles of reason and mathematics are of this order.


For relevant example, for a distinct world to be possible of existence, it must have in it at least one feature [A] such that it is different from all other possible worlds. We may then freely dichotomise W: W = {A|~A}. This already indicates that rationally intelligible structure and quantity are present in the fabric for such a world, we may readily identify here duality, unity (and complex unity in the case ~A), also nullity. The von Neumann construction then gives muscle to Peano’s succession from unity, and we have the natural counting numbers. From this, we may further recognise Z, Q, R, C and more.


Widening scope, and using reality in the widest sense, in reality (to include the case where there may be plural worlds as domains in reality) there will be some A, thus too ~A and a similar dichotomy obtains, R = {A|~A}. Instantly, A is itself i/l/o its core characteristics, perhaps a bright red ball on a table. This is the Law of Identity, LOI. Similarly, by the contrast and dichotomy, no x in R will be in A and in ~A, law of non contradiction, LNC. Thirdly (notice how counting numbers are implicit) any x in R will be in A or else in ~A, not in both or neither. Law of the excluded middle, LEM.


These three are inescapably true. We cannot prove them by appealing to something deeper, as to try to prove cannot but assume and implicitly use them. Likewise a claimed disproof or possible world in which they do not hold will on inspection be found to be implicitly using them. Such are the start-points for reasoning.

In short, we can see that the claim that we cannot be certain about anything is itself a claim to certainty, so it is advisable to instead explore the degrees of warrant we may obtain, for various types of cases. Once we do so, it becomes clear that there are degrees of warrant thus of certainty. Where, moral certainty is the first such degree, with self-evidence and necessary, undeniable or inescapable truths progressing upwards on the ladder. Such then allow us to have yardsticks and plumb-lines to test our reasoning and knowledge claims.

The common notion that associates certainty with oppression, intolerance etc and reacts by applying a hermeneutic of suspicion fails to properly address warrant and knowledge. END

PS: It is likewise worth pausing to point out the relevant demonstration on how considerable, rationally intelligible substance of structure and quantity are implicit in there being a distinct possible world on the table. Here, 257 in the same thread:

1: Consider reality, and within it some distinct entity, say a bright red ball on a table, B. Thus the rest of reality is the complement to B, ~B. Reality, R = {B|~B}


2: Immediately, B is itself (distinctly identifiable i/l/o its core, distinguishing characteristics), this is the fundamental law of thought, Law of Identity, which sets up the dichotomy and its corollaries.


3: Clearly, no x in R can be B AND ~B. Law of non-contradiction, a corollary.


4: Likewise, any x in R must be in B or in ~B, not between them or separate from them: B X-OR ~B, law of the excluded middle. The second corollary.


5: Now, ponder a possible world, W, a sufficiently complete description of a possible [coherent!] state of affairs in reality, i.e. in this or any other world that could be or is.


6: So far, we have set up a framework for discussion, including pointing out the key first principles of right reason that we must use so soon as we type out a message using distinct characters, etc. These are not provable, they are inevitable, inescapable and thus have a right to be presumed first truths of right reason.


7: Now, W, holds distinct identity, it is a particular possible world, different from all others. That is, if claimed entities W1 and W2 are not discernibly different in any respect, they are just different labels for the same thing W.


8: Notice, all along we are trafficking in statements that imply or assert that certain things are so or are not so, i.e. propositions and that relationship of accurate description of reality that we term truth.


9: All of these are not merely concrete particulars or mere labels, they are abstracta which are inevitable in reasoning. Indeed, the relationship of intentionality implicit in attaching a name is an abstractum, too.
10: Now, W is one of infinitely many possible states of affairs, and shares many attributes in common with others. So, we mark the in-common [genus] and the distinct [differentia].


11: So, we freely identify some unique aspect of W, A. W, then is: W = {A|~A}.


12: But already, we see rationally discernible abstract entities, principles and facts or relationship, quantity and structure; i.e. the SUBSTANCE of Mathematics. Namely,


13: first, that which is in W but external to A and ~A is empty, as is the partition: nullity.


14: Likewise, A is a distinct unit, as is ~A [which last is obviously a complex unity]. This gives us unity and duality.


15: So, simply on W being a distinct possible world, we must have in it nullity, unity and duality. These are abstract structural and quantitative properties embedded in the framework for W.


16: This is, strictly, already enough for the claim that there is an abstract substance of mathematical character that is necessarily embedded in any possible world, which is itself an abstract entity, being a collection of propositions. In at least one case such are actualised, i.e. it is possible to have an accurate summary of our world.


17: However, much more is necessarily present, once we see the force of the von Neumann succession of ordinals (which substantiates Peano’s succession), actually presenting the natural counting numbers starting from the set that collects nothing, which is itself an undeniable abstract entity:


{} –> 0
{0} –> 1
{0,1) –> 2
{0,1,2} –> 3
. . .
{0,1,2,3 . . . } –> w [first transfinite ordinal]
etc, without limit


18: We here have N. Define for some n in N, that -n is such that n + (-n) = 0, and we equally necessarily have Z. Again, rooted in the distinct identity of a world, we are studying, exploring, discovering, warranting (as opposed to proving), not creating through our culturally influenced symbolism and discussion.


19: Similarly, identify the ratio n:m, and we attain the rationals, Q.
20: Use power series expansions to capture whole part + endless sum of reducing fractions converging on any given value such as pi or e or phi etc, and we have the reals, R, thus also the continuum. Where, from Z on, we have has entities with magnitude and direction, vectors.


21: Now, propose an operation i*, rotation pivoting on 0 through a right angle. This gives us i*R, an orthogonal axis with continuum, and where for any r in R+, i*r is on the new [y] axis.


22: Now too, go i*i*r, and we find -r. That is we have that i = sqrt(-1), which here has a natural sense as a vector rotation. Any coordinate in the xy plane as described is now seen as a position vector relative to the origin.


23: We have abstract planar space, thus room for algebraic and geometrical contemplation of abstract, mathematically perfect figures. For instance consider the circle r^2 = x^2 + y^2, centred on o.


24: In its upper half let us ponder a triangle standing at -r [A] and r [B] with third vertex at C on the upper arc. This is a right angle triangle with all associated spatial properties, starting with angle sum triangle and Pythagorean relationships, trig identities etc. Between these two figures and extensions, the world of planar figures opens up.


25: Extend rotations to ijk unit vectors and we are at 3-d abstract “flat” space. All of this, tracing to distinct identity.


26: We may bring in Quaternions and Octonions, the latter now being explored as a context for particle physics.


27: The Wigner Math-Physics gap is bridged, at world-root level.


28: Similarly, we have established a large body of intelligible, rational entities and principles of structure and quantity implicit in distinct identity. Such are the substance we discover by exploration (which is culturally influenced) rather than invent.


29: Where it is an obvious characteristic of invention, that it is temporally bound past-wards, Until some time t, entity e did not exist. Then, after t, having been created, it now exists.


30: The above abstracta are implicit in the distinct identity of a world and so have existed so long as reality has. That is, without past bound. (It can readily be shown that if a world now is, some reality always was.)

I again point out that once a demonstration is on the table, only a counter-demonstration suffices to answer it. Unsubstantiated opinions to the contrary avail nothing. Perhaps, it is helpful to note Aristotle on pathos, ethos, logos:

Of the modes of persuasion furnished by the spoken word there are three kinds. The first kind depends on the personal character of the speaker [ethos]; the second on putting the audience into a certain frame of mind [pathos]; the third on the proof, or apparent proof, provided by the words of the speech itself [logos]. Persuasion is achieved by the speaker’s personal character when the speech is so spoken as to make us think him credible . . . Secondly, persuasion may come through the hearers, when the speech stirs their emotions. Our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are not the same as when we are pained and hostile . . . Thirdly, persuasion is effected through the speech itself when we have proved a truth or an apparent truth by means of the persuasive arguments suitable to the case in question . . . . [Aristotle, The Rhetoric, Book I, Ch. 2. Cf. summary with scholarly observations at http://plato.stanford.edu/entr…..-rhetoric/ and http://www.public.iastate.edu/…..index.html for a hypertext version of the book]

For, appeals to our passions, perceptions and felt reactions are of no more weight than the soundness of underlying judgements. Those to the credibility of an authority or presenter hold no more weight than the merits of the underlying case. It is therefore to the merits of fact and logic that we must always go. This should not be controversial, but that is where we now have reached.

Comments
I originally started posting here because of the discussion about math, which branched out to discussions about consciousness and the mind, and about the general nature of the physical world. I don't pay any attention to all the discussion about evolution that goes on here. Actually, for what it's worth, I do find some of the articles News posts interesting, even though I often don't find her commentary very interesting. That's one of the reasons I keep paying attention to this site.hazel
January 27, 2019
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Atheism is a religion? Really? And no one asked you to discuss anything, hazel. A yes or no would have sufficed. What about the science part- Are you an evolutionist who thinks life’s diversity arose via blind and mindless processes such as natural selection and drift? Or do you consider that to be an unscientific position?ET
January 27, 2019
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Hi ET. I only discuss my religious beliefs with people who I know personally, who I know care about me, and who are genuinely interested in a positive way. I wouldn't discuss my personal religious beliefs with strangers in a public forum like this one.hazel
January 27, 2019
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Hazel- are you an atheist? Are you an evolutionist who thinks life's diversity arose via blind and mindless processes such as natural selection and drift?ET
January 27, 2019
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I see. They don't interest me much, and I agreed with PZ Myer's assessment, although I don't know very much about the whole situation.hazel
January 27, 2019
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H, the book addresses especially the new atheists. KFkairosfocus
January 27, 2019
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KF, since 30 was addressed to me, I guess I took the last line about a corrective as also addressed to me. I see that perhaps you were just explaining your thoughts in general but not actually addressing anything I had said, so the "corrective" was not actually a suggestion to me in particular.hazel
January 27, 2019
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H, I gave a first corrective to atheism (by linking); much more can be brought to bear as necessary or indicated. KFkairosfocus
January 27, 2019
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F/N: Given the way radical relativism and subjectivism are pushed ever so hard nowadays, it is very interesting to see the lack of objectors ever so eager to show that the general point made in the OP is false. But of course, that's weirdly consistently inconsistent: if one asserts that s/he is CERTAIN that one cannot be certain that there is justifiable certainty, that is obviously self-defeating. Even in the case (not originally on the table) of moral truth, to assert or imply that there is no knowable moral truth (or no moral truth to be known) then that is also a moral truth claim implicitly taken as certain. Going back to core structure and quantity embedded in the fabric of this or any other possible world, we have a demonstration on self-evident principles (law of identity) on the table. KFkairosfocus
January 27, 2019
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SB, the claim that one cannot know truth concerning moral claims is a moral truth claim; in effect that moral claims cannot be warranted, so by implication are subjective or relative and possibly imposed (note the shade of claimed injustice there). It is thus self-referential, incoherent and consequently certainly false. By reductio ad absurdum, one therefore can freely, properly conclude that on the contrary one can know to relevant certainty some moral truths. A good start-point is, to observe that in our reasoning and arguing even those who object are appealing to our known duties to truth, right reason, prudence, fairness & justice, etc. Pondering the suggestion that such duties are not in fact known instantly lands mindedness, reason and discussion in the morass of grand delusion. We therefore cannot escape the conclusion that we are indeed under moral law of such duties, starting with our thought life, conscience being a witness. From this, we then find that contrary to a common belief, is and ought are inextricably intertwined and the IS-OUGHT gap must be bridged at the only possible level (on pain of ungrounded ought), the root of reality. This then points us to the only serious candidate on the table -- if you doubt, just put up a successful alternative: _______ . This brings us face to face with him whom theo-phobes get the vapours over: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being. One, who is worthy of loyalty and of the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good which accords with our evident nature. In that light, classically, woe to those who put darkness for light and light for darkness, good for evil and evil for good, who are wise in their own eyes, etc. Particularly, as setting up a crooked yardstick as a false standard for straightness and uprightness means that what is genuinely straight ("true") and upright ("plumb") cannot match what falsity demands. The resulting delusion then systematically locks out truth and right. Which is exactly what we are seeing across our civilisation. KF PS: We can then apply a highly instructive moral yardstick that brings out a considerable body of moral knowledge: it is self-evidently wrong, evil, wicked to kidnap, bind, gag, sexually assault and murder a young child for one's pleasure. This slice of the cake has in it a great many ingredients that then allow us to draw out a better way than the might and/or manipulation make 'truth'/ 'right'/ 'knowledge'/ 'justice' etc we too often see all around us today. Of course, such an approach cuts directly across the fashionable opinions, the ongoing abortion holocaust and other marches of evil that are leading our civilisation over the cliff.kairosfocus
January 26, 2019
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Ed George
Obviously there are things we can be justifiably certain about. I am justifiably certain that I can’t live without food water and air. But I suspect that you are talking about issues that are often discussed here (eg, objective morality, ID, the origin of human rights, homosexuality, abortion, etc., etc.). For most of these, no we can’t be justifiably certain. And the reason for this is once we claim justifiable certainty, we end the discussion. And it becomes majority rules.and, at present, the majority is winning. To the detriment of all of us.
So if I insist that the truth about the morality of abortion can be known, my certainly is a detriment to society because it ends discussion and promotes majority rule, but if you insist that the truth about the morality of abortion cannot be known, your certainly is not a detriment to society because it does not end discussion and does not promote majority rule. Do I understand you correctly?StephenB
January 26, 2019
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BA77
You can forget about me commenting on your threads going forward.
That is much better than a “read more” button. :)Ed George
January 26, 2019
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BA77, that is your privilege. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2019
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You can forget about me commenting on your threads going forward.bornagain77
January 26, 2019
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BA77, language, please refrain from vulgarities. Also, while "insanity" as a one time reference in context is at least understandable, regular resort becomes inappropriate and invites a reaction rather than a response. Please use different language going forward. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2019
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as to
"Atheism is insane!"
to which,
"I know several atheists and I don’t detect any insanity. "
How so very scientific, a personal subjective opinion on his own ability, i.e. "I know", to detect insanity. First off, if atheistic materialism and/or methodological naturalism were true, (which just so happens to be, by far, the prevailing 'scientific' worldview taught in leading American universities), then there is no "I" to know anything. In fact, if atheistic materialism and/or methodological naturalism were actually true, then EG did not actually write his post in protest to me calling Atheism insane, but the laws of physics wrote it and informed the illusion of EG of the event after the fact,,, per Paul Nelson..
Do You Like SETI? Fine, Then Let's Dump Methodological Naturalism - Paul Nelson - September 24, 2014 Excerpt: "Epistemology -- how we know -- and ontology -- what exists -- are both affected by methodological naturalism (MN). If we say, "We cannot know that a mind caused x," laying down an epistemological boundary defined by MN, then our ontology comprising real causes for x won't include minds. MN entails an ontology in which minds are the consequence of physics, and thus, can only be placeholders for a more detailed causal account in which physics is the only (ultimate) actor. You didn't write your email to me. Physics did, and informed (the illusion of) you of that event after the fact. "That's crazy," you reply, "I certainly did write my email." Okay, then -- to what does the pronoun "I" in that sentence refer? Your personal agency; your mind. Are you supernatural?,,, You are certainly an intelligent cause, however, and your intelligence does not collapse into physics. (If it does collapse -- i.e., can be reduced without explanatory loss -- we haven't the faintest idea how, which amounts to the same thing.) To explain the effects you bring about in the world -- such as your email, a real pattern -- we must refer to you as a unique agent.,,, some feature of "intelligence" must be irreducible to physics, because otherwise we're back to physics versus physics, and there's nothing for SETI to look for.",,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/do_you_like_set090071.html
No matter how you cut it, that is completely insane. Thus, the prevailing atheistic worldview taught in American Universities today, i.e. methodological naturalism, is an insane worldview. There simply are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. If "you" want to protest that believing "you' don't actually exist as a causal agent is actually a sane position to hold, well then by all means have at it! :) Who am I to deny you the right to deny that you exist? Einstein himself was prone to the insanity of denying his own agent causality. As Ellis stated, "if Einstein did not have free will in some meaningful sense, then he could not have been responsible for the theory of relativity – it would have been a product of lower level processes but not of an intelligent mind choosing between possible options."
Physicist George Ellis on the importance of philosophy and free will - July 27, 2014 Excerpt: And free will?: Horgan: Einstein, in the following quote, seemed to doubt free will: “If the moon, in the act of completing its eternal way around the Earth, were gifted with self-consciousness, it would feel thoroughly convinced that it was traveling its way of its own accord…. So would a Being, endowed with higher insight and more perfect intelligence, watching man and his doings, smile about man’s illusion that he was acting according to his own free will.” Do you believe in free will? Ellis: Yes. Einstein is perpetuating the belief that all causation is bottom up. This simply is not the case, as I can demonstrate with many examples from sociology, neuroscience, physiology, epigenetics, engineering, and physics. Furthermore if Einstein did not have free will in some meaningful sense, then he could not have been responsible for the theory of relativity – it would have been a product of lower level processes but not of an intelligent mind choosing between possible options. I find it very hard to believe this to be the case – indeed it does not seem to make any sense. Physicists should pay attention to Aristotle’s four forms of causation – if they have the free will to decide what they are doing. If they don’t, then why waste time talking to them? They are then not responsible for what they say. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/physicist-george-ellis-on-the-importance-of-philosophy-and-free-will/
As Dr. Egnor pointed out, "The denial of free will is a psychiatric, not philosophical, issue."
More on John Searle and Free Will – Michael Egnor – July 27, 2016 Excerpt: the three defenses of free will that I listed are obvious points that any informed and minimally thoughtful person would raise.,,, The denial of free will is a psychiatric, not philosophical, issue. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2016/07/more_on_john_se103026.html
And as I pointed out in post 2, besides the insanity in denying your own agent causality, the insanity gets much worse for those who toe the line of methodological naturalism.
Besides the insane claim from leading atheistic philosophers that their own personal subjective conscious experience is an illusion, and that they really don’t exist as real people, many other things become illusory in the atheist’s worldview. Things that normal people resolutely hold to be concrete and real.
“Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris), who has unreliable beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the reality of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God (Craig, Kreeft). Bottom line, nothing is real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,,” Paper with references for each claim page; Page 37: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pAYmZpUWFEi3hu45FbQZEvGKsZ9GULzh8KM0CpqdePk/edit
Thus, although the Darwinian Atheist firmly believes he is on the terra firma of science (in his appeal, even demand, for methodological naturalism), the fact of the matter is that, when examining the details of his materialistic/naturalistic worldview, it is found that Darwinists/Atheists are adrift in an ocean of fantasy and imagination with no discernible anchor for reality to grab on to. It would be hard to fathom a worldview more antagonistic to modern science, (and to “certainty” itself), than Atheistic materialism and/or methodological naturalism have turned out to be.
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Thus, EG may not like me calling atheistic materialism and/or methodological naturalism insane, but alas, under atheistic materialism and/or methodological naturalism there is no EG to really object to anything. Only a mindless meat zombie making whistling gurgling and popping noises forced upon him by the lower level laws of physics.,, And again that is, pardon the language, just plain bat-{SNIP] crazy insane no matter how you slice it. Moreover, this insanity, i.e. methodological naturalism, is taught in leading American universities in spite of the fact that we now have robust scientific evidence from neuroscience and quantum mechanics strongly supporting the 'common sense' contention that free-will, i.e. agent causality, actually exists.
(December 2018) Neuroscientific and quantum validation of free will https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/three-knockdown-proofs-of-the-immateriality-of-mind-and-why-computers-compute-not-think/#comment-670445
Moreover, if EG would have bothered to look up the facts, he would have found that numerous studies have now all shown that faith in God has a tremendous beneficial effect on both our mental and physical health: As Professor Andrew Sims, former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, states, “The advantageous effect of religious belief and spirituality on mental and physical health is one of the best-kept secrets in psychiatry and medicine generally.”,,, “In the majority of studies, religious involvement is correlated with well-being, happiness and life satisfaction; hope and optimism; purpose and meaning in life;,,”
“I maintain that whatever else faith may be, it cannot be a delusion. The advantageous effect of religious belief and spirituality on mental and physical health is one of the best-kept secrets in psychiatry and medicine generally. If the findings of the huge volume of research on this topic had gone in the opposite direction and it had been found that religion damages your mental health, it would have been front-page news in every newspaper in the land.” - Professor Andrew Sims former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists - Is Faith Delusion?: Why religion is good for your health - preface “In the majority of studies, religious involvement is correlated with well-being, happiness and life satisfaction; hope and optimism; purpose and meaning in life; higher self-esteem; better adaptation to bereavement; greater social support and less loneliness; lower rates of depression and faster recovery from depression; lower rates of suicide and fewer positive attitudes towards suicide; less anxiety; less psychosis and fewer psychotic tendencies; lower rates of alcohol and drug use and abuse; less delinquency and criminal activity; greater marital stability and satisfaction… We concluded that for the vast majority of people the apparent benefits of devout belief and practice probably outweigh the risks.” - Professor Andrew Sims former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists - Is Faith Delusion?: Why religion is good for your health – page 100 https://books.google.com/books?id=PREdCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA100#v=onepage&q&f=false Lack of ultimate meaning in life associated with alcohol abuse, drug addiction and other mental health problems - August 2015 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150813092911.htm
In fact, in the following study it was found that, “those middle-aged adults who go to church, synagogues, mosques or other houses of worship reduce their mortality risk by 55%.”
Can attending church really help you live longer? This study says yes – June 1, 2017 Excerpt: Specifically, the study says those middle-aged adults who go to church, synagogues, mosques or other houses of worship reduce their mortality risk by 55%. The Plos One journal published the “Church Attendance, Allostatic Load and Mortality in Middle Aged Adults” study May 16. “For those who did not attend church at all, they were twice as likely to die prematurely than those who did who attended church at some point over the last year,” Bruce said. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/06/02/can-attending-church-really-help-you-live-longer-study-says-yes/364375001/
Thus, it is readily apparent that the Atheist's attempt to create illusory meaning and purposes for his life, minus belief in God and a afterlife, falls short in a rather dramatic fashion on both the mental and physical level. In short, the insanity inherent within the atheist's worldview does indeed have a rather dramatic negative effect on both the atheist's mental and physical life that is very much scientifically detectable. Of related note: The mental illness of ‘denialism’ is also rampant within evolutionary thinking, especially among supposed 'professionals'
Design Thinking Is Hardwired in the Human Brain. How Come? – October 17, 2012 Excerpt: “Even Professional Scientists Are Compelled to See Purpose in Nature, Psychologists Find.” The article describes a test by Boston University’s psychology department, in which researchers found that “despite years of scientific training, even professional chemists, geologists, and physicists from major universities such as Harvard, MIT, and Yale cannot escape a deep-seated belief that natural phenomena exist for a purpose” ,,, Most interesting, though, are the questions begged by this research. One is whether it is even possible to purge teleology from explanation. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/design_thinking065381.html
And indeed, the denial of design, especially in biology, is nothing short of sheer madness,
"It is not enough to say that design is a more likely scenario to explain a world full of well-designed things. It strikes me as urgent to insist that you not allow your mind to surrender the absolute clarity that all complex and magnificent things were made that way. Once you allow the intellect to consider that an elaborate organism with trillions of microscopic interactive components can be an accident… you have essentially “lost your mind.” Jay Homnick
Thus, EG may take exception to the bluntness of me calling atheism, particularly methodological naturalism, insane, but in all fairness I was not being blunt enough in proclaiming the sheer madness that results from holding methodological naturalism as being true. When examined in detail, Alice in Wonderland looks sane in comparison to the leading worldview taught in American Universities, i.e. methodological naturalism.bornagain77
January 26, 2019
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I haven't said anything that needs a corrective, kf, as I haven't made any claims whatsoever about atheism, other than it's not equivalent to "evolutionary materialistic scientism", which is a point you agreed on.hazel
January 26, 2019
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ET, indeed, the design inference on tested, reliable signs is an inference to credible causal process, not to the identity or ontological nature of candidate designers. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2019
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H, for cause, I hold that any variety of evolutionary materialistic scientism (the predominant form of current atheism) is caught up in inherently and inescapably self referentially incoherent, necessarily false views where adequate reason to recognise the falsity is readily accessible. Secondly, other forms of atheism that do not reduce to such in one way or another are utterly unable to account for us adequately as responsibly, rationally free, morally governed, enconscienced creatures. Further, this cluster of evidence strongly points to the inherently good, maximally great, necessary being creator God as root of reality. Accordingly, while it is often intellectually and ideologically fashionable, atheism in its various forms is ill-founded and ill advised. KF PS: I suggest a reading of this book, as a first corrective.kairosfocus
January 26, 2019
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re 26: Got it, kf. I wasn't clear since your "evolutionary materialistic scientism" post immediately followed a remark about atheism being insane, so I mistakenly thought you were seeing those as equivalent. I see now that you don't. All is well.hazel
January 26, 2019
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Yes, kairosfocus. I was being facetious. I fully understand that an atheist can be an IDist. That is because ID does not require God.ET
January 26, 2019
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ET, actually, there are idealistic forms and various other varieties. Some types of Buddhism count, for example. There are versions on Daoism that have been seen that are effectively atheistical. Other things are "non-theistic" but not atheistic. Some are anti-theistic or even theo-phobic. In many cases, there will be no coherent view sufficient to be termed a worldview, just an ad hoc world-picture that locks out God. We must not allow the common rhetorical subterfuge that atheism is mere lack of belief in God, explicitly or implicitly atheism rejects the reality of God. Where, as an essential part of what it means to be God, God would be a necessary being; atheism implies that God is impossible of being, that there is no possible world in which God exists would be true were such an actual world. Thus, atheism carries the --unmet -- intellectual burden of showing that the God of ethical theism is impossible of being. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2019
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H, I am very aware of other varieties of atheism; I very specifically spoke to the relevant variety. I can address these in general, e.g. starting from that our rational life is morally governed through a known duty under truth, right reason, prudence, justice etc, thus implying that the IS-OUGHT GAP must be bridged at the only level of reality that such is possible, the root. Whence, we see that there is but one serious candidate: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being; one worthy of our loyalty and of the responsible, rational service of doing the good that accords with our evident nature. Where, as this is phil, I can challenge to put up an alternative if one rejects such: _____. However, a prior issue lies on the table -- warrant and rational responsibility, including the possibility of rational certainty and the self-evident, inescapable nature of first principles of right reason. Indeed, foundations of mathematics also. At this stage, I am increasingly concerned that our civilisation is on a march of utterly irrational folly, never mind the pretence of erudition and brilliance among the educated and chattering classes. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2019
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hazel:
Atheism is not equivalent to “evolutionary materialistic scientism.”
FYI: Yes, it is. Wow, it's easy "arguing" like hazel, brother brian and Ed George.ET
January 26, 2019
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FYI: Atheism is not equivalent to "evolutionary materialistic scientism."hazel
January 26, 2019
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Ed George @ 20 quote mines bornagain77 and then has the gall to call it a "childish taunt". Unbelievable.ET
January 26, 2019
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EG, Evolutionary materialistic scientism is demonstrably and inescapably self-referentially incoherent, thus inherently irrational. Worse, the incoherence is not particularly hard to spot, e.g. here is J B S Haldane's longstanding corrective:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (NB: DI Fellow, Nancy Pearcey brings this right up to date (HT: ENV) in a current book, Finding Truth.)]
This can be elaborated, e.g. here is Reppert:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A [--> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [--> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
Much more can be said, but here is the horse's mouth, Alex Rosenberg:
Alex Rosenberg as he begins Ch 9 of his The Atheist’s Guide to Reality: >> FOR SOLID EVOLUTIONARY REASONS, WE’VE BEEN tricked into looking at life from the inside. Without scientism, we look at life from the inside, from the first-person POV (OMG, you don’t know what a POV is?—a “point of view”). The first person is the subject, the audience, the viewer of subjective experience, the self in the mind. Scientism shows that the first-person POV is an illusion. [–> grand delusion is let loose in utter self referential incoherence] Even after scientism convinces us, we’ll continue to stick with the first person. But at least we’ll know that it’s another illusion of introspection and we’ll stop taking it seriously. We’ll give up all the answers to the persistent questions about free will, the self, the soul, and the meaning of life that the illusion generates [–> bye bye to responsible, rational freedom on these presuppositions]. The physical facts fix all the facts. [--> asserts materialism, leading to . . . ] The mind is the brain. It has to be physical and it can’t be anything else, since thinking, feeling, and perceiving are physical process—in particular, input/output processes—going on in the brain. We [–> at this point, what "we," apart from "we delusions"?] can be sure of a great deal about how the brain works because the physical facts fix all the facts about the brain. The fact that the mind is the brain guarantees that there is no free will. It rules out any purposes or designs organizing our actions or our lives [–> thus rational thought and responsible freedom]. It excludes the very possibility of enduring persons, selves, or souls that exist after death or for that matter while we live.>>
Going on, here is Cothran:
The materialist, said Chesterton, "is not allowed to admit into his spotless machine the slightest speck of spiritualism or miracle." Materialists like Harris keep asking why we make the decisions we do, and what explanation there could be other than the physiological. The answer, of course, is the psychological, the philosophical, the whimsical, and about a thousand others. But these violate the central tenets of his narrow dogma, and so are automatically rejected. There is something ironic about the position of thinkers like Harris on issues like this: they claim that their position is the result of the irresistible necessity of logic (in fact, they pride themselves on their logic). Their belief is the consequent, in a ground/consequent relation between their evidence and their conclusion. But their very stated position is that any mental state -- including their position on this issue -- is the effect of a physical, not logical cause. By their own logic, it isn't logic that demands their assent to the claim that free will is an illusion, but the prior chemical state of their brains. The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument convincing is if they are not true. The claim that free will is an illusion requires the possibility that minds have the freedom to assent to a logical argument, a freedom denied by the claim itself. It is an assent that must, in order to remain logical and not physiological, presume a perspective outside the physical order. And this is not only a mortal consequence for Harris as the one trying to prove his point, it is also problematic from the reader's perspective: If we are convinced by Harris's logic, we would have to consider this conviction as something determined not by the rational strength of his logic, but by the entirely irrational arrangement of the chemicals in our brains. They might, as Harris would have to say, coincide, but their relation would be completely arbitrary. If prior physical states are all that determine our beliefs, any one physical state is no more rational than any other. It isn't rational or irrational, it just is. If what Harris says is true, then our assent to what we view as the rational strength of his position may appear to us to involve our choice to assent or not to assent to his ostensibly rational argument, but (again, if it is true) in truth it cannot be any such thing, since we do not have that choice -- or any other. Indeed, it is hard to see how, if free will is an illusion, we could ever know it. ["The Medial Pre-Frontal Cortex Did It: Sam Harris's Free Will" by Martin Cothran at ENV (echoing C S Lewis and J B S Haldane etc) on November 9, 2012, HT the too often underestimated BA77, cf. here.]
So, "insane" in the colloquial sense -- AmHD: 4. Very foolish; absurd: took insane risks behind the wheel -- is relevant, though I would prefer to use the more specifically descriptive terms: evolutionary materialistic scientism is demonstrably irrational by way of being inescapably self-referentially incoherent (thus self-falsifying), in ways that should be readily accessible to a reasonably informed person, and thus is indefensible. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2019
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PPS: Likewise, here is the Stoic philosopher Epictetus, on being challenged regarding the credibility of logic:
http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/discourses.mb.txt Chapter 25 That logic is necessary When one of those who were present said, "Persuade me that logic is necessary," he replied: Do you wish me to prove this to you? The answer was, "Yes." Then I must use a demonstrative form of speech. This was granted. How then will you know if I am cheating you by argument? The man was silent. Do you see, said Epictetus, that you yourself are admitting that logic is necessary, if without it you cannot know so much as this, whether logic is necessary or not necessary --> Notice, inescapability in action. Chapter 26 What is the property of error Every error comprehends contradiction: for since he who errs does not wish to err, but to he right, it is plain that he does not do what he wishes. For what does the thief wish to do? That which is for his own interest. If, then, the theft is not for his interest, he does not do that which he wishes. But every rational: soul is by nature offended at contradiction, and so long as it does not understand this contradiction, it is not hindered from doing contradictory things: but when it does understand the contradiction, it must of necessity avoid the contradiction and avoid it as much as a man must dissent from the false when he sees that a thing is false; but so long as this falsehood does not appear to him, he assents to it as to truth. --> Here, to err is to miss the mark of truth and right, not by design but by mistake --> There is what lies beyond mere error, willful knowing evil --> There is also being trapped in evil or falsehood, by some bondage or other --> A particularly pernicious trap is making what is false or evil the yardstick to judge truth and good, for then the true and the good can never match such a crooked yardstick. He, then, is strong in argument and has the faculty of exhorting and confuting, who is able to show to each man the contradiction through which he errs and clearly to prove how he does not do that which he wishes and does that which he does not wish. For if any one shall show this, a man will himself withdraw from that which he does; but so long as you do not show this, do not be surprised if a man persists in his practice; for having the appearance of doing right, he does what he does. For this reason Socrates, also trusting to this power, used to say, "I am used to call no other witness of what I say, but I am always satisfied with him with whom I am discussing, and I ask him to give his opinion and call him as a witness, and through he is only one, he is sufficient in the place of all." For Socrates knew by what the rational soul is moved, just like a pair of scales, and that it must incline, whether it chooses or not. Show the rational governing faculty a contradiction, and it will withdraw from it; but if you do not show it, rather blame yourself than him who is not persuaded. --> This presumes commitment to truth, right reason and prudence, justice etc
kairosfocus
January 26, 2019
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BA77
i.e. Atheism is insane!
I know several atheists and I don’t detect any insanity. This sort of childish taunt does not promote fruitful discussion. Might I suggest a less polarizing and confrontational tone?Ed George
January 26, 2019
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PS: Here is Simon Greenleaf, a founding father of the modern anglophone school of thought on evidence, on warrant to moral certainty:
Evidence, in legal acceptation, includes all the means by which any alleged matter of fact, the truth of which is submitted to investigation, is established or disproved . . . None but mathematical truth is susceptible of that high degree of evidence, called demonstration, which excludes all possibility of error [--> Greenleaf wrote almost 100 years before Godel], and which, therefore, may reasonably be required in support of every mathematical deduction. [--> that is, his focus is on the logic of good support for in principle uncertain conclusions, i.e. in the modern sense, inductive logic and reasoning in real world, momentous contexts with potentially serious consequences.] Matters of fact are proved by moral evidence alone; by which is meant, not only that kind of evidence which is employed on subjects connected with moral conduct, but all the evidence which is not obtained either from intuition, or from demonstration. In the ordinary affairs of life, we do not require demonstrative evidence, because it is not consistent with the nature of the subject, and to insist upon it would be unreasonable and absurd. [--> the issue of warrant to moral certainty, beyond reasonable doubt; and the contrasted absurdity of selective hyperskepticism.] The most that can be affirmed of such things, is, that there is no reasonable doubt concerning them. [--> moral certainty standard, and this is for the proverbial man in the Clapham bus stop, not some clever determined advocate or skeptic motivated not to see or assent to what is warranted.] The true question, therefore, in trials of fact, is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false, but, whether there is sufficient probability of its truth; that is, whether the facts are shown by competent and satisfactory evidence. Things established by competent and satisfactory evidence are said to be proved. [--> pistis enters; we might as well learn the underlying classical Greek word that addresses the three levers of persuasion, pathos- ethos- logos and its extension to address worldview level warranted faith-commitment and confident trust on good grounding, through the impact of the Judaeo-Christian tradition in C1 as was energised by the 500 key witnesses.] By competent evidence, is meant that which the very-nature of the thing to be proved requires, as the fit and appropriate proof in the particular case, such as the production of a writing, where its contents are the subject of inquiry. By satisfactory evidence, which is sometimes called sufficient evidence, is intended that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind [--> in British usage, the man in the Clapham bus stop], beyond reasonable doubt. The circumstances which will amount to this degree of proof can never be previously defined; the only legal [--> and responsible] test of which they are susceptible, is their sufficiency to satisfy the mind and conscience of a common man; and so to convince him, that he would venture to act upon that conviction, in matters of the highest concern and importance to his own interest. [= definition of moral certainty as a balanced unprejudiced judgement beyond reasonable, responsible doubt. Obviously, i/l/o wider concerns, while scientific facts as actually observed may meet this standard, scientific explanatory frameworks such as hypotheses, models, laws and theories cannot as they are necessarily provisional and in many cases have had to be materially modified, substantially re-interpreted to the point of implied modification, or outright replaced; so a modicum of prudent caution is warranted in such contexts -- explanatory frameworks are empirically reliable so far on various tests, not utterly certain. ] [A Treatise on Evidence, Vol I, 11th edn. (Boston: Little, Brown, 1888) ch 1., sections 1 and 2. Shorter paragraphs added. (NB: Greenleaf was a founder of the modern Harvard Law School and is regarded as a founding father of the modern Anglophone school of thought on evidence, in large part on the strength of this classic work.)]
kairosfocus
January 26, 2019
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