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Dembski replies to Shapiro: “Natural genetic engineering” is just magic, by another name. Can you make it science?

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In the ongoing discussion between the ID theorists, including Dembski, and self-organization theorist James Shapiro, Dembski asks “Is James Shapiro a Darwinist After All?” (Evolution News & Views January 25, 2012):

Neo-Darwinism essentially localizes the creative potential of evolution in genetic mutations. Shapiro rightly sees that this can’t be the main source of evolutionary variation. So he expands it to include “horizontal DNA transfer, interspecific hybridization, genome doubling and symbiogenesis.” Fine, now you’ve got a richer source of variation. But what is coordinating these variations to bring about the increasing complexity we find in biological systems? Shapiro’s answer is “natural genetic engineering.” Cells, according to Shapiro, are intelligent in that they do their own natural genetic engineering, taking existing structures through horizontal DNA transfer or symbiogenesis, say, and reworking them in new contexts for new uses.

But in making such a claim, has Shapiro really solved anything? Has he truly understood the evolution of any complex biological structures? For instance, does his third way now provide some real insights into protein evolution? I’m hammering on these words “solution” and “understanding” because they are easily misused to suggest greater knowledge and conceptual progress than exists.

Natural genetic engineering would actually mean something, providing genuine understanding of and solutions for the origin of novel biological structures, if Shapiro could point to actual, identifiable mechanisms and show how they take existing structures and then refashion them into new ones. But Shapiro doesn’t do this. For him, natural genetic engineering is a magic phrase, a label, that he attaches to hypothesized processes that are opaque to him and yet that he claims result in evolutionary novelty. Note that I’m not talking here about the mechanisms he regularly cites, such as lateral gene transfer or symbiogenesis, which are mechanisms for generating evolutionary variation. Rather, I’m talking about deeper mechanisms that must exist if natural genetic engineering is to be real and take advantage of more obvious mechanisms such as symbiogenesis.

More.

Comment here.

Note: Is “natural genetic engineering” another example of attributing intelligence to a nature that is supposed to be devoid of intelligence? If not, what?

Comments
aiguy, You remain in the perpetual delusion that we must define your favorite term to the ultimate satisfaction of every critic on Earth in order to move forward. Like a silly connoisseur demanding that we must speak French in order to discuss champagne. We don't. Get over it. (back later)Upright BiPed
January 26, 2012
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Whether or not Shapiro's ideas eventually turn out to have merit, it doesn't help ID with the problem that "intelligence" remains as scientifically vacuous an explanation as "natural genetic engineering" is now. (please see my post above, which was held for moderation).aiguy_again
January 26, 2012
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I think there's more to it than that as far as the cell is concerned. KF is absolutely right, IMO. Homeostasis is just one of characteristic properties of the living cell integrated into a single whole, for which one needs formal control. I think it is impossible to circumvent this problem without choice causation.Eugene S
January 26, 2012
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which means it requires set point targets, feedback sensors, and controllers driving actuators to keep things in the right ballpark.
Pardon, but you need to improve your simplistic understanding of the concept, and the variety of things that can exhibit homeostasis. To start with it doesn't require targets, not does it require sensors or actuators in the engineering sense, all it requires is a system whose behavior in response to a variable stimuli is to compensate - an example would be temperature stability under sunlight achieved with a coating that alters color - it gets whiter when it is hot, and blacker when cold - this is an example of a minimal homeostatic system, but one that is just due to a simple physical property rather than complex engineering. Evolution is another example of where homeostasis can be OBSERVED. WHEN you have self replicators with variation and differential survival rates, in a variable environment, you OBSERVE homeostasis.GCUGreyArea
January 26, 2012
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NR: Homeostasis is a control system issue, which means it requires set point targets, feedback sensors, and controllers driving actuators to keep things in the right ballpark. (Matter of fact, homeostasis was one of the conceptual examples I saw in my very first control systems course.) Setting up and controlling such a loop is a major design challenge and points directly to purposefulness. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2012
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Here's some help, Petrushka: This site doesn't officially endorse books. Some of us are interested in some books. Shapiro especially,as he appears to be a non-Darwinist. Authors have differing opinions in a general range.News
January 26, 2012
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Why should you be surprised, Petrushka, that different ID proponents have different estimations of a writer? Do all Darwinians (Coyne, Dawkins, Scott, Miller, Collins, Ayala, Shermer, Ruse, etc.) agree on everything? ID is a big tent. Not everyone here will agree with every word that Dembski has written about Shapiro. Where has "this site" endorsed Shapiro? Certain columnists and commenters here have praised Shapiro for his criticism of Darwinian thinking, and for his suggestion of a model of evolution which is potentially teleological, even if Shapiro does not construe it that way himself. By no means does this imply that all the other columnists here, or the management here, would take such a positive view of Shapiro. ID people are individualists; they think for themselves. Just as they disagree over theology (being everything from agnostics through fundamentalists to Catholics to Hindus), and just as they disagree over macroevolution (some rejecting it, some endorsing it, and some reserving judgment), so they can disagree about the scientific value and/or the design implications of Shapiro's views. In fact, I'd argue that ID people, taken as a whole, are more individualistic than either the atheist Darwinists, taken as a group, or the Christian Darwinists (theistic evolutionists), taken as a group. There is a wider range of views tolerated within ID than in either of those other camps, and therefore individuality and critical thinking, as opposed to groupthink, is more encouraged. Anyhow, regarding your specific points: 1. Everyone here would agree that Shapiro is an evolutionist, but that does not make him anti-ID, since ID is compatible with evolution. 2. Yes, Shapiro does intend to offer a purely naturalistic explanation of evolution. However, even a purely naturalistic explanation of the evolutionary process is not incompatible with design. Denton offers a purely naturalistic explanation that is explicitly a vehicle for design. 3. The issue that Dembski is raising concerning Shapiro is whether Shapiro's self-engineering organisms won't eventually force Shapiro (whether he likes it or not) to adopt a design position. It's a reasonable question. How did living things come to have the capacity for self-engineering? By chance? T.Timaeus
January 25, 2012
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Dembski:
But what is coordinating these variations to bring about the increasing complexity we find in biological systems?
The natural homeostasis found in biological systems would seem to provide sufficient coordination.Neil Rickert
January 25, 2012
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It seems like just moments ago this site was officially endorsing Shapiro's book. When the book came out I read it and pointed out that Shapiro provided a naturalistic view of evolution. I was accused of not reading the book. Within the last few days Shapiro was defended on this site against charges that he was an evolutionist and not ID friendly. The winds change suddenly around here.Petrushka
January 25, 2012
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Natural genetic engineering would actually mean something, providing genuine understanding of and solutions for the origin of novel biological structures, if Shapiro could point to actual, identifiable mechanisms and show how they take existing structures and then refashion them into new ones. But Shapiro doesn’t do this. For him, natural genetic engineering is a magic phrase, a label, that he attaches to hypothesized processes that are opaque to him and yet that he claims result in evolutionary novelty.
I agree with this. I would also say that in ID, the magic label "intelligence" functions the same way. It is utterly opaque, and nobody has any clue how it is supposed to operate. We don't understand how human beings use their brains to make sense of sensory data, store and retrieve memories, solve problems, generate plans, and so forth. One thing we do know is that we do use our brains (and other parts of our bodies too, such as the enteric nervous system in our GI tract) in order to think. So if ID claims to refer to a known cause for life, it must be referring to a complex physical organism with mental/physical abilities similar to human beings - that is, an extra-terrestrial life form of some sort. But there is no evidence that such things exist, and if they did, it would be more likely that we were their descendents rather than the products of their engineering efforst. Otherwise, ID's claim must refer to an unknown type of cause, which would be something that is not a complex physical organism but still somehow has the mental/physical abilities of human beings (and then some). We have no idea how anything without a complex nervous system could possible be able to perceive, store and retrieve information, generate plans, and so forth. So, just like Shapiro uses "natural genetic engineering" as a magic phrase that actually doesn't say anything about what is going on, ID uses the phrase "intelligent design" in the very same way.aiguy_again
January 25, 2012
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So, can I as a Creationist claim "SUPER"-Natural genetic engineering as my scientific explanation for life? If Shapiro can make claims based on faith in materialism and without having to produce evidence for his claims, why can't I make the argument for a Creator or designer? Especially when the evidence, logical deduction and scientific principles point to one??? Materialists and atheists haven't rejected God, they just call Him 'blind, random chance' because apparently it can do anything!Blue_Savannah
January 25, 2012
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If we just attribute the astoundingly sophisticated, and quite apparently purposeful operation of cellular systems to "evolution," then we can readily reconstruct the entire enterprise, without missing a beat when promoting that life is the established result of blind processes. If we're going to continue to keep poisonous ideas out of the classroom, the equivocal power of the term, "evolution," must be retained. That way anything we observe, no matter how non-random, no matter how marvelous and sophisticated, can be attributed to evolution, the cover word which removes all doubt, that everyone and everything is the result of blind, pitiless indifference. _______ As a side note, in my elementary school cafeteria, directly opposite the lunch line, which lead a stream of children through an expansive room filled with tables and chairs and finally up to the serving area, there was a gigantic banner spanning over half the length of the wall. It was a graphic depicting the "evolution of man" scenario. Every day while we waited in line for lunch, that banner was the predominate feature of the entire room, directly opposite the wall that guided the lunch line onward. There were no other graphics, plaques, or depictions of scientific ideas, theories, or visionaries. Just the one, expansive, "evolution of man" image.material.infantacy
January 25, 2012
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