Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Fun with the hyperreal numbers (and with the idea of an infinite actual past)

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The hyperreals are an extension of the real number line that brings to bear a reciprocal relationship between the very large and the very small. By so introducing extensions to the real number continuum, it forms a base for an infinitesimals approach to the calculus and makes sense of a lot of the tricks used by early pioneers of Calculus from Leibniz and Newton to Euler and beyond. (Though, it is clear in retrospect that they missed a lot of the pathologies that are now part of the far more cautious approaches of today.)

And yes, here is a case where Wikipedia does some good (likely, in a context where there are few basement trolls capable of making a mess):

Let’s zoom in on the graphic, which illustrates the “hyperreal microscope” of *R:

Let us note the definitional relationship between the infinitesimal and the hyper-large:

1/ε  =  ω/1

Where also, a common principle used is that ε is so small that ε^2 = 0. Where, to see what that is suggesting consider that (1/10)^2 = 1/100, and (1/10^50)^2 = (1/10^100), i.e. squaring drastically reduces the scale of a very small number.

This is all quite interesting, and has been used to rehabilitate some of Euler’s work, e.g. here.

(This is also quite relevant to some of the “Math tricks” used by Physicists and Engineers. The reference to the hyperreals may be a way to rehabilitate some seemingly dubious tricks.)

The principle that ω is a number greater than any finite sum 1 + 1 + 1 + . . . + 1 implies that it is of order type at least comparable to the first transfinite ordinal. The inclusion of the further numbers such as ω/2 indicates a reference to the surreals, and something like root-7 times ω indicates an onward transfinite continuum. I do not at this juncture specifically identify this ω with the familiar first transfinite. (Perhaps someone cares to clarify?)

So, we may at least highlight the surreals, where the vertical bars indicate continua — note the place for “infinitesimals”:

All of this is interesting in itself, as numbers are the tools of ever so much analysis and we here enrich appreciation of our favourite tool-box. (I confess, this weekend was more spent with dynamic-stochastic general equilibria, linked rational expectations, questions on modern theories of growth and human capital, etc. All, with Garrison’s Austrian approach to macroeconomics lurking, and blending in issues of saturation and stagnation at points along the PPF as well as what happens to shocked economies with low investor confidence . . . as in, 20+ years on from devastating volcanic eruptions. This stuff was the oh, what about light exploration as a relief.)

But all of this converges on something which has come up for strong, sustained exchanges several times here at UD. Namely, the suggestion of an actual infinite causal-temporal past of the [wider?] cosmos. For, if ω is such that no finite succession from 0, 1, 2 via 1 + 1 + 1 . . . + 1 can reach it, then counting down — notice, the ladder-like succession of steps (and how the surreals extend this to construct continua and to go into transfinite ordinals) — from it in finite succession [or by symmetry counting algebraically upwards from – ω] may reach to something like ω/2 [or – ω/2] but it will be futile for getting to a finite reach of a zero-point.

In short, we can see here a reason to hold that there was no actually transfinite causal-temporal succession of states that have managed to reach the present. Nor will it do to posit that at any given past time p that can finitely succeed to now, infinity past was already traversed. That begs the question of HOW.

This also surfaces a logic of being point.

Namely, that non-being has no causal powers, so that if ever there were utter nothing, such would have forever obtained. Thus also, circular causation is forbidden as this would imply that the not yet existent acted as a cause. Thus, we either have an infinite succession of contingent beings as the world-root or else there is a necessary being at world root. That is, an entity such that it is utterly unlike a fire, which has several required external, enabling “on/off” causal factors for it to begin or be sustained:

Where this goes, is that a necessary being is framework for any possible world to exist. So, in any world, it would be. It neither began nor can it cease from being. For instance, in reality we may consider a world W, which must have a distinct identity. So, too, we may consider some distinct thing in W, A that contributes to its identity. Then, we may look at W = {A|~A}. This shows two unities, i.e. two-ness. No world is possible without two-ness, and beyond, the panoply of numbers.

This is what gives bite to Berlinsky’s remark that was just raised here at UD:

>>There is no argument against religion that is not also an argument against mathematics . . . .

Mathematicians are capable of grasping a world of objects that lies beyond space and time ….

… Come again …

DB: No need to come again: I got to where I was going the first time. The number four, after all, did not come into existence at a particular time, and it is not going to go out of existence at another time. It is neither here nor there. Nonetheless we are in some sense able to grasp the number by a faculty of our minds. Mathematical intuition is utterly mysterious. So for that matter is the fact that mathematical objects such as a Lie Group or a differentiable manifold have the power to interact with elementary particles or accelerating forces. But these are precisely the claims that theologians have always made as well – that human beings are capable by an exercise of their devotional abilities to come to some understanding of the deity; and the deity, although beyond space and time, is capable of interacting with material objects.

… And this is something that you, a secular Jew, believe? …

DB: What a question! . . .  I have no religious convictions and no religious beliefs. What I do believe is that theology is no more an impossible achievement than mathematics. The same rational standards apply. Does the system make sense; does it explain something? Are there deep principles at work. Is it productive? >>

So, now, we see from the hyperreals augmented by ideas of causal-temporal succession, that it is hard to defend the notion of a transfinite actual past of contingent beings leading up to now. This points to there being an actual beginning of the world and that this traces to a finitely remote necessary being world root.

That’s enough for a UD Sunday reflection! END

PS: As it is being claimed or implied that no serious thinker thinks like that, I add a clip, just for record:

Comments
KF, I'll have to respond in small bites.
We set, WLOG, now as zero (previously, I used the Singularity). So the duration since the past event at X is 0 – X = – X, where X is a negative number. This, you have not challenged effectively.
Definitely not. I believe that it is correct.
It highlights, that duration attaches to the specific beginning and end events of a duration. And since we are dealing with actual events, at specific points in the chain of successive causal-temporal stages to now, I have every right to point out that duration is primarily since a specific event, not a property of the collecting container, the set S of the past series of stages.
How can we resolve this? I suggest looking at the Moreland passage above. He speaks of a beginningless infinite past. I can't view the preceding page which that quote is taken from, but I presume he allows that a sequence of stages through an infinite past could have order type ω* (as opposed to ω* + ω*, from the quoted passage). Certainly other writers do. Now the set of nonpositive integers, which does have order type ω*, does not contain any elements infinitely remote from 0. So no particular elements of this set are infinitely remote from 0, yet Moreland (likely) regards the set as a whole as having infinite "duration". From my reading, I believe that's consistent with what others have in mind. An infinite past simply must contain arbitrarily long intervals. Just as a spatially infinite universe must contain arbitrarily long distances.daveS
February 20, 2018
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DS, appreciated. Let's see how we can move forward. I await your onward comment. KFkairosfocus
February 20, 2018
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KF, I'll respond more fully to this later, but for now, let me clarify that I'm not trying to "isolate" or "dismiss" your line of reasoning, but rather simply to draw some critical distinctions between the models of an infinite past that are being discussed. WLC and others are talking almost exclusively about IP(−ω), while you sometimes are talking about IP(+ω). At certain junctures we need to be very explicit about what is on the table. However, on a personal level, at times during this debate I have unquestionably been overly snarky, or a "jerk", and for that I do apologize.daveS
February 20, 2018
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DS, Let me start with the point Berlinski made, which this was primarily a back-up for. Mathematics is inseparable from modern technical thought, and is an abstract mentally perceived or even intuited realm that interacts causally with the observable reality. This of course echoes Wigner's amazement at the effectiveness of mathematics in the physical sciences. I have long thought that an extension of the definition I was taught long since answers aptly: mathematics is (and studies) the logic of structure and quantity. So, it is in fact highly relevant to take Wiki as a witness against known ideological interest and to highlight the place of the hyper-reals [and so too the infinitesimals], which were relevant to the emergence of Calculus from the days of Archimedes to the C18. There being challenges, the epsilon-delta limits approach was substituted across C19, but from the 1940's - 60's the non-standard analysis approach rehabilitated the use of infinitesimals. A realm of abstract ideas that are explored on logic-guided intuitions and formulated into schemes of thought turns out to be foundational to modern society. That should give any card-carrying materialist serious pause. Next, was it two years ago, I was thinking along the lines that are now confirmed to be reasonable. I well recall the fairly sharp dismissiveness with which I was greeted. But there we have it, use of reciprocals as a catapult function between the hyper-reals and the infinitesimals, the use of an essentially extended reals line with a continuum. That then brings back into play the substantial concerns and issues I raised then and have in some measure continued to raise since. It also calibrates the credibility [or, actually, want of it] of the dismissiveness in response. In that light, I am not particularly suprised to see that you were first trying the tactic of isolating and dismissing my remarks as idiosyncratic and dubious musings, Above, you were confidently trying to slice off and dismiss. In that context, I highlighted Stanford Enc of Phil and now Moreland, to see that there is in fact a serious discussion along the lines of the logic I have put up. In response you try to still distance WLC et al and dismiss the most closely parallel to my arguments. By now, that attitude and approach are sadly unsurprising. Let me pick back up SEP and WLC's core points [cf. 28 above and the onward link], for a moment:
5 An actual infinite cannot exist.
[He has many reasons for that, which are often hotly contended but on the whole I think he has a serious point . . . at minimum he has shown that modern atheism effectively is reduced to a highly contentious assumption about the past, which is very different from its boast that it can be seen as a default for the intelligent person]
6 A beginningless temporal series of events is an actual infinite. [Note this] 7 Therefore, a beginningless temporal series of events cannot exist. Since (7) follows validly, if (5) and (6) are true the argument is sound . . . . >> 6.3 Successive Addition Cannot Form an Actual Infinite Craig’s second argument addresses this very point. 8 The temporal series of events is a collection formed by successive addition. 9 A collection formed by successive synthesis is not an actual infinite. 10 Therefore, the temporal series of events cannot be an actual infinite (Craig 1979: 103). The collection of historical events is formed by successively adding events, one following another. The events are not temporally simultaneous but occur over a period of time as the series continues to acquire new members. Even if an actual infinite were possible, it could not be realized by successive addition; in adding to the series, no matter how much this is done, even to infinity, the series remains finite and only potentially infinite. One can neither count to nor traverse the infinite (Craig and Sinclair 2009: 118). It might be objected that this sounds very much like Zeno’s paradoxes that prohibit Achilles or anyone from either beginning to cross an area or succeeding in doing so. But, notes Craig, significant disanalogies disallow this conclusion. For one, Zeno’s argument rests on progressively-narrowing, unequal distances that sum to a finite distance, whereas in traversing the past the equal distances continue to the infinity of the future.
[--> relative to the distant past in view. This is also the context in which I have consistently spoken of finite stage causally successive stages]
Second, Zeno’s distances are potential because of divisibility, whereas the distances from the past are actual distances or times to be traversed.
In short these arguments are indeed quite similar to what I have put on the table, and those of J P Moreland, though compressed are even closer. So, the implied oh you are ranting on idiosyncratically and can be dismissed rhetorical tactic fails. Now, we can return to the substantial matter. I recently had to compose a Crypt-stone summary for my Dad. In identifying the duration of his life, I posed two dates, just as was done for my grandparents, aunts, uncles and so forth in the same family burial plot. (The motto on the stone is, "study to shew thyself approved unto God" which was underscored in every Bible in the house and was inscribed in the only Bible he ever actually gave to me. It is apt to his life and a lesson to the nation.) The duration, as simple logic tells, is date of death, less date of birth, though of course it is usually given as a forward direction, X - Y, the duration being the dash, a compressed timeline. Duration, from the actual (as opposed to imagined or assumed or theoretical) past to the present is similarly a timeline of stages or events. As we may here involve going beyond the big bang singularity, using something like years is probably not the best, so I have emphasised a stages-count; which is more than good enough for our purposes. A hypothesised beginningless past would have a past infinity of stages. We set, WLOG, now as zero (previously, I used the Singularity). So the duration since the past event at X is 0 - X = - X, where X is a negative number. This, you have not challenged effectively. It highlights, that duration attaches to the specific beginning and end events of a duration. And since we are dealing with actual events, at specific points in the chain of successive causal-temporal stages to now, I have every right to point out that duration is primarily since a specific event, not a property of the collecting container, the set S of the past series of stages. So, I have singled out that we can denote an event in general as R, and the duration since can be seen as -R_t, for want of better symbols for the moment. So, for a finitely remote event, P, we can directly see that time since is - P_t. What you obviously wish to put on the table is that the set of all events elaborates events of type P, into the past infinity, such that no natural number N can bound the value of t, therefore you have a past infinity of finitely remote events in finite stages. This is a way to imply dismissal of the force of the point that from the far past zone, to claim that it is beyond any natural counting number N (or integer) from us, one is implying that some values of t are hyperreal. Thus, you have your cake and eat it: only finite points in the past, but collectively an infinity. I don't think that works. First, I repeat, duration does not attach tot he set as a whole, but it is since particular events or stages in the set. So, to claim a past infinity of beginninglessnes, you imply that here are particular actual events or stages Q in S such that - Q_t is hyperreal. I have sometimes put it that if every event in the past is finitely remote, that directly implies that the past is finite. So, we have here another really strong and questionable worldview commitment of the modern atheist. An infinite past containing only finitely remote events, such that somehow mysteriously, through the magic of the ellipsis of the past infinite, we only designate finitely remote past events but infer an infinity of no0-beginning for the set as a whole. I repeat, duration is primarily since the particular event to now. That is not a controversial, idiosyncratic, readily dismissed claim. So, directly, if one claims a beginningless past of finite scale stages in a causal-temporal succession down to now, then one IMPLIES -- whether or not one wishes to ACKNOWLEDGE -- actual past events that are transfinitely remote. There is no escape into the magical power of the three dot ellipsis. So, events Q are on the table such that duration since Q -- regardless of onward infinite sequence -- that is -Q_t, is transfinite, hyperreal for convenience, i.e. its reciprocal q is all but vanishingly close to zero, smaller than any real number, and such that q^2 ~ 0. That seems to me, a reasonable definition of such a transfinite. The problem then directly surfaces as is also shown by WLC and JPM et al: to pass from Q to Now, let's denote now as 0, requires stepwise, finite stage causal-temporal succession across a span of transfinite character. Traversing the infinite in finite stage successive steps. I have long since shown how this is a futility as once we have taken any k steps, no matter how large, we can effectively start again as though we had taken none -- think here of the blue vs pink punch-tape example I used previously: 0 --> 1 --> 2 --> 3 . . . k + 0 --> k + 1 --> k + 2 --> k + 3 . . . That is, one to one correspondence, the proper subset is in 1:1 correspondence and we cannot traverse the transfinite span in the ellipsis. (Going to the OP for a moment, we could put the ellipses in between the two omegas (+/-) and the zero point. You cannot go to either or from either to zero in finite stage steps. The issue is serious. Now, the SEP continues, citing a key objector who comes up early in Google searches, long before WLC himself does in his own voice (which is telling in itself):
Morriston (2003: 290) critiques Craig’s thesis that forming the infinite series of events by successive addition presupposes a beginning point. He asks,
Why couldn’t there have been an infinite series of years in which there was no first year? It’s true that in such a series we never “arrive” at infinity, but surely that is only because infinity is, so to speak, “always already there”. At every point in such a series, infinitely many years have already passed by.
Why do we need to “arrive at infinity?” But Craig’s point is not that we cannot arrive at infinity in the past, but that we could not traverse the infinite to arrive at the present moment. Why this moment rather than another? But maybe, Morriston replies, that is just the way it is; “the past just is the series of events that have already happened”. To require a reason for the series of past events arriving at now is to appeal to the principle of sufficient reason, which he deems both suspect and inappropriate for Craig to invoke (Morriston 2003: 293). Furthermore, he argues, Craig’s argument mistakenly presupposes two independent series—a series of events and a series of segments of time they occupy—such that one can ask about how the former is mapped onto the latter, whereas in fact the two series are not independent. Craig (2010) replies that it is not a matter of sufficient reason, but that Morriston simply has not paid sufficient attention to the distinction between past and present tenses, on which potential and actual infinites are founded. A finite series that has the potential for further members, as with future events beginning with now, is actually finite and only potentially infinite. But a beginningless series of past events cannot add new members; it is actually, not potentially, infinite. There is a relevant distinction between the two series.
In short, it is clear that the objector wishes to have the traversal of the infinite in effect set aside as already accomplished at all times we may specify. In my mind, as I noted above, that already begs the question. The issue is how we get to finite reach of 0, not that from some finitely remote P we may access 0 and use the power of the past ellipsis to duck the point at stake. I am also aware of the dismissive attitude to the PSR in various forms. However, there is a relevant weak form that one may inquire of anything that is [or is not etc] why is that so and then proceed with inquiry. This is self-evident as one may then directly engage the matter. Which is what we have done above. We find that stages in the temporal-causal domain of interest are (unsurprisingly) causally successive, one stage receding to the immediate past as it generates a successor and often leaves traces of once having been the actual present. Then as successive stages pass, it is increasingly distant in the past as the days of Rome now are or those of Pharaoh in Egypt. So, it is entirely appropriate to address that dynamic of stepwise stage by stage succession and its implications. In short, the issue is still on the table: transfinite duration in the past implies that there are members of S that are of the character of Q not P. This, as duration is since event R not lost in the magic of ellipsis. So, he decisive point is that one cannot span a transfinite traverse in whatever direction in stepwise succession, though as seen in the OP and for the past two years IIRC, one may catapult over it through the power of the reciprocal function which allows us to leap from infinitesimal to hyperreal and back again. I conclude, for cause, that there is no good reason to infer that one may take as a default view that there has been a beginningless, thus transfinite, past. further, that we are only warranted to see that S contains elements of finite remoteness, P only. Third, the assertion or assumption of a beginningless past implies that there are events of character Q, as duration since attaches to the particular event not the magical power of the ellipsis and the brackets used to denote a set as a conceptual object. but there is no power in stepwise finite stage succession to actually span the transfinite range implied, so we are warranted in the conclusion that spanning from Q to 0 is an infeasible supertask. There was an actual past, and we are warranted to conclude that it was finite, i.e. there is some counting number N that does exceed the valid number of past events/stages, whatever that may be. The physical world has credibly had a beginning, even if we go beyond the big bang to suggest [without actual observations] that there are prior stages. And indeed that is also the message of accumulating entropy, that the past has not been long enough to reach to a deteriorated, degraded cosmic state. A complex, fine tuned, coherently functionally specific world with a beginning points to its being the product of intelligently directed configuration. this raises the further issue of a capable designer of such a world. And yes, that puts the Kalam cosmological argument back on the table. SEP:
Craig formulates the kal?m cosmological argument this way (in Craig and Smith 1993: chap. 1): 1: Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence. 2: The universe began to exist. 3: Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence. 4: Since no scientific explanation (in terms of physical laws) can provide a causal account of the origin (very beginning) of the universe, the cause must be personal (explanation is given in terms of a personal agent). This argument has been the subject of much recent debate . . .
KFkairosfocus
February 20, 2018
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PS to my #33: Perhaps a bit hasty. He has generated some new ideas and discussion around the "infinite past" issue, in any case.daveS
February 19, 2018
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KF,
F/N: Kindly see the clip from J P Moreland, Ed. that has been appended to the OP.
Yes, that is one example of the very exotic topologies that Quentin Smith, I believe, has also written about. There's nothing "unserious" about considering those possibilities, to be sure. Edit: I've skimmed a few of Moreland's arguments just now, and they are not very good, to say the least.daveS
February 19, 2018
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KF,
Duration or count to now attaches to the specific link in the chain, not to the conceptual container. To suggest an infinite duration as there are onward more remote links does not eliminate the point that for a duration you need now this end and then that end. So if you claim transfinite duration you imply events Q with transfinite separation in stages from now.
When WLC and Quentin Smith speak of an infinite past, they mean a past in which given any positive integer N, there exist two stages/time coordinates in the past separated by at least N steps/time units. There need not exist any two stages/time coordinates separated by infinite distance. This is similar to a discussion of a spatially infinite universe, with infinite "diameter". In that case, it just means that there are physical points separated by arbitrarily large distances. There need not be any particular points separated by an infinite distance.daveS
February 19, 2018
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F/N: Kindly see the clip from J P Moreland, Ed. that has been appended to the OP. KFkairosfocus
February 19, 2018
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DS, What I put up stands on its own merits, and I have shown that very similar thought is being addressed. Maybe it is time for you to explain to us how in a world where duration since an event is specific to that event, you propose to have a beginningless and infinite past without events that are a transfinite duration away. === Let me add: Recall, duration since attaches to the dynamically connected finite stages, not to the conceptual container, the set of the actual past. In this context it seems more and more distractive to bring up an onward further endless [from the perspective of counting back up the chain of causes that is perfectly legitimate] stages in the chain. Yes, that only means that there are many cases of further durations to address. Duration or count to now attaches to the specific link in the chain, not to the conceptual container. To suggest an infinite duration as there are onward more remote links does not eliminate the point that for a duration you need now this end and then that end. So if you claim transfinite duration you imply events Q with transfinite separation in stages from now. And that pivots on what duration means. KFkairosfocus
February 19, 2018
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KF,
Remember, kindly, the arrow and trajectory of time: forward. So if there were a beginningless, infinitely remote temporal-causal sequence of past stages to now, it would have had to span from the transfinitely remote past to now.
Yes, so the traversal is beginningless, not endless. That's exactly my point. It's important to be precise about the order type of the collection of stages being traversed.
Further to such, that entails cases R that carry the transfinite duration. So were there an actual infinite, beginningless past there would be cases Q such that t_R(Q) is itself of transfinite scale. It matters not that beyond any given Q there are more stages in an onward transfinite chain, the focal point is Q.
Where is this Q coming from? If you are talking about a scenario where an infinite past is assumed to include such Q's, then of course they exist. But I'm strictly speaking of what I called IP(−ω), consistent with WLC, Quentin Smith, etc. In their conception, you don't get this Q for free. It sounds like you only want to talk about IP(+ω), in which case you're talking about something different than me, WLC, Smith, etc.daveS
February 19, 2018
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PS: I find in the Sanford Enc Phil: >>6.2 Impossibility of an Actual Infinite In defense of premise 2, Craig develops both a priori and a posteriori arguments. His primary a priori argument is 5 An actual infinite cannot exist. 6 A beginningless temporal series of events is an actual infinite. 7 Therefore, a beginningless temporal series of events cannot exist. Since (7) follows validly, if (5) and (6) are true the argument is sound. In defense of premise (5), he defines an actual infinite as a determinate totality that occurs when a part of a system can be put into a one-to-one correspondence with the entire system (Craig and Sinclair 2009: 104). Craig argues that if actual infinites that neither increase nor decrease in the number of members they contain were to exist in reality, we would have rather absurd consequences. >> And also . . . >> 6.3 Successive Addition Cannot Form an Actual Infinite Craig’s second argument addresses this very point. 8 The temporal series of events is a collection formed by successive addition. 9 A collection formed by successive synthesis is not an actual infinite. 10 Therefore, the temporal series of events cannot be an actual infinite (Craig 1979: 103). The collection of historical events is formed by successively adding events, one following another. The events are not temporally simultaneous but occur over a period of time as the series continues to acquire new members. Even if an actual infinite were possible, it could not be realized by successive addition; in adding to the series, no matter how much this is done, even to infinity, the series remains finite and only potentially infinite. One can neither count to nor traverse the infinite (Craig and Sinclair 2009: 118). It might be objected that this sounds very much like Zeno’s paradoxes that prohibit Achilles or anyone from either beginning to cross an area or succeeding in doing so. But, notes Craig, significant disanalogies disallow this conclusion. For one, Zeno’s argument rests on progressively-narrowing, unequal distances that sum to a finite distance, whereas in traversing the past the equal distances continue to the infinity of the future. Second, Zeno’s distances are potential because of divisibility, whereas the distances from the past are actual distances or times to be traversed.>> So, there actually are similar arguments in WLC. Though, he focusses on the overall set. I have pointed out that the members form the set and duration of the whole depends on duration since its members were the present. But that is not the primary issue. I also note that I speak to finite stages in succession precisely because this sets to one side the "Zeno paradox" distraction. The focal matter is a succession of finite stages. Likewise, you will observe that above I do not speak of Q as a beginning but a point in the set S, for all we care for the sake of argument for the moment, there could be an onward even more remote transfinite chain, much like we may see in the hyperreals above in the OP. The focal matter is that duration attaches to the specific event once we accept now as a zero point [or a similar convention such as the singularity, which I used earlier]. The span onward cannot be bridged in succession by stepwise addition of finite stages, so cannot reach to now.kairosfocus
February 19, 2018
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DS, Last point first. Remember, kindly, the arrow and trajectory of time: forward. So if there were a beginningless, infinitely remote temporal-causal sequence of past stages to now, it would have had to span from the transfinitely remote past to now. So, that a stepwise, finite stage succession cannot span a transfinite range to REACH the present, that is material. And IIRC that has been one of WLC's concerns among others. But names are not the key issue, substance is. What I have pointed out is that for any R in S, which has a particular place in the sequence, duration to now is a property of the event given lapsed time. That is, date x to now is driven by when date X was. 1930 to now is 87 - 88 years ago. The aggregate set of past events only exhibits a duration because of the specific durations to now of its members R. So, if the claim is, a transfinite past with no beginning, then any event R has an onward endlessly remote onward chain of events. But that does not change the point that duration (t_now - t_R) is set by when R happened. Set t_now = 0 by convenience and WLOG, so we see duration = - t_R. So now, if you claim time without beginning, then necessarily transfinite past duration. Further to such, that entails cases R that carry the transfinite duration. So were there an actual infinite, beginningless past there would be cases Q such that t_R(Q) is itself of transfinite scale. It matters not that beyond any given Q there are more stages in an onward transfinite chain, the focal point is Q. The point I have made is that duration since a transfinitely remote Q would have to proceed in stepwise finite stages to now. But that is the problem, such a dynamic does not have the power to span such a traverse. So, we are warranted to infer a finite past such that all past moments, stages etc are only finitely remote from now and the number of such stages is itself countably finite. KFkairosfocus
February 19, 2018
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KF,
Where also, as duration attaches to each member, if the past-stages set is infinite in the past, it must contain members Q that have the property of being themselves infinitely remote in time from now. Otherwise, there simply was no such infinitely remote actual past.
Well, I have no interest in getting into a debate over semantics. I will point out once again that the above is in conflict with the usage of the term "infinite past" in the philosophical literature. I am interested in the issue of "infinite past", as understood by WLC, Quentin Smith, etc., which involves no assumption of "ω-points". I will use the notation IP(−ω) to denote this concept, and perhaps IP(+ω) for your version.
But the dynamic of stepwise succession from finite stage to finite stage does not have the capability to actually span endlessness.
Edit x 2: This is in fact irrelevant. The traversal in question is actually beginningless, not endless.daveS
February 19, 2018
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DS, given that each stage has its own time locus and is at a specific link in the successive chain, the property of duration since some member of S, R is a property of R. As a result, if some P is finitely remote we can count back to it through its successors. Where also, as duration attaches to each member, if the past-stages set is infinite in the past, it must contain members Q that have the property of being themselves infinitely remote in time from now. Otherwise, there simply was no such infinitely remote actual past. But the dynamic of stepwise succession from finite stage to finite stage does not have the capability to actually span endlessnes. So, if we are here after a past, that past will contain only members P and no members Q. The past events are finite and the overall set of events is also finite. KFkairosfocus
February 19, 2018
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PS: Back, I should add, the set is structured, formed by a dynamic, time-forward causally connected process. That process imposes stepwise, finite stage succession.kairosfocus
February 19, 2018
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KF,
DS, my point is that the past and time or stage count to particular events or stages is specific. The idea that we get to deal with infinity by implication of a set that is endlessly continued so the aggregate is infinite does not work.The past is fixed, it happened, it is not adding in the remote zone.
True, but AFAIK, no one is suggesting otherwise. This person moving backward in the chain is observing something that already exists, and which is not changing. That's been my presumption all along. Now what about this Q event?daveS
February 19, 2018
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DS, my point is that the past and time or stage count to particular events or stages is specific. The idea that we get to deal with infinity by implication of a set that is endlessly continued so the aggregate is infinite does not work. The past is fixed, it happened, it is not adding in the remote zone. KFkairosfocus
February 19, 2018
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KF, I will go through and interpret your argument. Please point out any errors.
P is some particular, finite past event. One that is such that some N will exceed the count to P.
Ok. Let's say we choose P to be the event of Neil Armstrong first setting foot on the Moon, and think of P as part of a particular very long chain of events stretching into the past. P is of course a member of many such chains, but we will fix one.
Think of it, now, as a subscript we may tag all or any such events we count back to with. As the past is a successive chain, we may count the links back from now and tag every counted link with a p subscript, like a check-mark.
Ok, I think that's clear enough.
The claimed infinite past implies that there would be some Q such that it will be beyond ANY N, that is we cannot find a way to comprehend the set of the past by count. It is endless.
Eh? But that's exactly what you're supposed to be demonstrating, namely that there is a Q, such that for every positive integer M, Q occurred more than M stages before the present. Why must such a Q exist? There is another problem here, which has come up frequently in other threads, that of the distinction between ontological questions vs. epistemological questions. Who really cares if a human observer, working backwards through this chain of events after they have occurred, has difficulty counting/comprehending the chain at some point? The events in the chain exist, regardless of our finite intellect. Not that this is really an issue---we have an ample supply of counting numbers in our arsenal.daveS
February 19, 2018
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DS, The point hinges not on De Morgan on NAND or NOR of composite statements, but on the meaning of the [actual] past and the further meaning of your:
It means that the past is not finite. And a finite past is a past for which there exists a positive integer N such that every instant in time occurred within the last N years
For the actual past S to not be finite, then: there [is not ANY] positive integer N such that every instant in time occurred within the last N years. P is some particular, finite past event. One that is such that some N will exceed the count to P. Think of it, now, as a subscript we may tag all or any such events we count back to with. As the past is a successive chain, we may count the links back from now and tag every counted link with a p subscript, like a check-mark. The claimed infinite past implies that there would be some Q such that it will be beyond ANY N, that is we cannot find a way to comprehend the set of the past by count. It is endless. However, distance or depth in time or count by finite stages to any past event or stage R, will be specific to that event. It is not an abstract set, for an event R to be a member it must have once been the now and to have since been succeeded by other events in a chain of finite stages down to today. So, if S contains all and only finitely remote past events, there would be no transfinite past. Recall, no R will be in S unless it was an actual past stage, and holds a specific place in the chain. That is, if you claim S is in aggregate transfinite but has in it no Q which is itself remote beyond any natural number, then there is a contradiction of meanings. For, transfinite is not here just an aggregate property but must obtain for particular stages. In short, the claim that there is an endlessness of count in aggregate does not confer infinite remoteness to any particular member R. But, to have a transfinite past we need to have such events that are beyond count so their remoteness in causal-temporal succession cannot be exceeded by ANY natural number N. There is -- for want of that transfer from the aggregate to the particular member -- therefore no R in S that may be tagged Q. That is, the past only contains finitely remote members of S and is finite. The future is POTENTIALLY infinite, continuing endlessly, but at any moment it is as yet unrealised. The future is for us an inductive projection from the past to now on the further assumption that nothing will cause the succession process to cease. But at any "now" the chain of events or stages so far is finite and open to further additions. Of course a discussion like this is not the sort of thing that one could have with the general public as it pivots on several abstruse issues such as what it would mean to be finite or infinite, etc. This is dialectic. But, that does not mean it is unimportant. For, the consequence of a world of causal-temporal succession is we face an Agrippa-like trilemma. Circular causal root can be ruled out as it entails a future, unformed event or stage causing its predecessor. Non-being having no causal power, that is impossible. Likewise, that the world should spring forth from utter non-being full-orbed and operating, is likewise impossible. So, we are looking at an infinite contingent chain in causal-temporal succession or a finitely remote world-root that comes from necessary being. It turns out that atheistical systems such as evolutionary materialism are locked into implying an infinite past of causally connected stages. But such is deeply questionable for reasons as described. This means the best option on the table is that the past is finite, rooted in a necessary being world-root. KFkairosfocus
February 18, 2018
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KF,
Then, there is no N in the counting numbers that is sufficient to exceed and bound the number of links to any P in S. This leads to the conclusion that there are members of S like Q where the span of steps would exceed ANY natural number, N.
How? Would you mind explaining this step in detail, symbolically if possible? I'm asking because this looks like an erroneous version of DeMorgan's laws. Which I'm sure you are aware of, so I'm at a loss to understand why you would make this sort of elementary error.daveS
February 18, 2018
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DS, the issue is the logic of structure and quantity i/l/o what is implied by what is said. The past is the set S, where there is a way to count the chain. Then, there is no N in the counting numbers that is sufficient to exceed and bound the number of links to any P in S. This leads to the conclusion that there are members of S like Q where the span of steps would exceed ANY natural number, N. This then runs right into the problem that stepwise, finite stage succession cannot span endlessness. KFkairosfocus
February 18, 2018
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KF,
I suggest that in this context, “not finite” implies that there is no integer N such that the stage count to ANY past point P will be less than N. Endless, in short.
I take it this means that there does not exist an integer N such that for every stage P, P occurred less than N stages ago. If, so, I agree.
I would then note that the past implies all and only those states, S such that they were once the present but have been succeeded by a chain of subsequent stages to the present.
Yes. I would use the words "consists of" instead of "implies", perhaps.
So, the actuality criterion binds our consideration.
I guess so? I don't know what "non-actual" past stages or a "non-actual" past would mean, however. How can there exist stages which have already occurred, are in the past, yet are "non-actual"?
I suggest that if there are actually past moments such that no integer value stage count equals or exceeds them, that is tantamount to there being actual past stages Q that are transfinitely remote.
But there aren't any such moments/stages. At least not in the conception of WLC, David Snoke, and others.daveS
February 18, 2018
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DS, if you are asserting, at least as a case to be considered:
It means that the past is not finite. And a finite past is a past for which there exists a positive integer N such that every instant in time occurred within the last N years.
I suggest that in this context, "not finite" implies that there is no integer N such that the stage count to ANY past point P will be less than N. Endless, in short. I would then note that the past implies all and only those states, S such that they were once the present but have been succeeded by a chain of subsequent stages to the present. So, the actuality criterion binds our consideration. I suggest that if there are actually past moments such that no integer value stage count equals or exceeds them, that is tantamount to there being actual past stages Q that are transfinitely remote. No, there is not an open admission. But the point is, we are not here dealing with oh you can always add another integer to any given integer K so they go on endlessly; then, we assign an order type to that sort of entity, omega and identify it as order type of the naturals. No, we require ACTUAL past moments in a successive chain to now. So, if the chain is not finite, it has links that are transfinitely remote. Where, step by step succession cannot traverse endlessness. KFkairosfocus
February 18, 2018
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KF, Ok, based on #14, no, that definitely does not follow.daveS
February 18, 2018
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DS, no finitely remote stage P [stage count from now to P = N, N a natural number] will be as remote as Q. That is Q is transfinitely remote. KFkairosfocus
February 18, 2018
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KF,
DS, in short there would have to be past times or stages Q such that no finite past stage P would be just as remote.
Eh? Just as remote as what? I don't think I understand. Edit: If you're saying that there must exist a stage Q such that no finite past stage P is just as remote as Q, then no, I don't believe that follows.daveS
February 18, 2018
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DS, in short there would have to be past times or stages Q such that no finite past stage P would be just as remote. For, I take it the past constitutes stages such that they were once the present but have been superseded by successor stages down to now. The challenge of endlessly remote past stages Q remains. KFkairosfocus
February 18, 2018
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KF, It means that the past is not finite. And a finite past is a past for which there exists a positive integer N such that every instant in time occurred within the last N years. You can also rephrase this in terms of a sequence of stages, as we have occasionally.daveS
February 18, 2018
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DS, what does it mean to have an actually infinite past? KFkairosfocus
February 18, 2018
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KF,
In that context, to assert or imply that for any actual past stage p, the cumulative time down to the present will be finite, also that prior to p there was an already completed further past that is infinite is to state a conclusion that requires warrant.
It is being proposed (by WLC, Snoke, et al) that for any actual past stage p, the cumulative time down to the present is finite (among other things). It's merely a proposal submitted for discussion, as in "let's examine whether this proposal, along with the proposal that the past is infinite, leads to a contradiction". I don't see the need for any warrant here. We can talk about any number of hypothetical propositions, regardless of whether we have warrant.
First, an actually infinite past implies completion of an infinite succession of stages that were once the present but have now been succeeded. Thus, some stages of the actual past, per this claim, must be transfinitely remote.
I have yet to see any compelling evidence for this. WLC is a pretty sharp guy. Are you curious why he, who arguably should be the world's leading expert on this topic, does not come to this conclusion?daveS
February 18, 2018
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