Dr Zelenko strikes yet again (at 911 patients and counting . . . )

_{kairosfocus

April 3, 2020

Defending our Civilization, Medicine, rhetoric}

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Here is a panel discussion for a rapidly organised conference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oq6IOP1sd8

We need to hear this, where 44 million donated tablets are already in hand. END

Comments

BO'H: Did you take time to observe that the side effects of CQ reportedly generally come from long term use? Did you note the shift to HCQ, decades ago as it had lower basic toxicity? Where, as I have repeatedly noted, the pharmaco prof in my old Uni noted a general dictum, pharmacology is the study of poisons in small doses. Essentially any drug is toxic, including ethyl alcohol, where drunkennes is an early toxic effect. As a statistician, surely you understand tradeoffs in a context where effective regimen seems to be less than a week at dosages commonly used for decades? We are up against a highly contagious disease that for vulnerable groups can kill up to about 10%, especially when age and preconditions are relevant. Risk-return tradeoff here is clearly decisively in favour of HCQ and Z-Pac with Zn Supplements, 5 - 7 days, about US$ 20 per treatment. And, to top off, that can help to avert side effects of a prolonged disruption of the global economy. KFkairosfocus_{April 5, 2020
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BO'H: Why are you so consistently leaving out of the reckoning Dr Raoult's two tests and the earlier tests in China and elsewhere? They provide further support and indeed, a full week ago now, in aftermath of Dr Rault's second studies France approved the drug. What is it? Is it that the irresponsible media are still singing the now broken party-line? Is it that you have not taken time to read the documentation provided here at UD? KFkairosfocus_{April 5, 2020
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Yes, hydrochloroquine has a long list of some time side effects that have to be considered but the other two drugs do not have anything serious especially when the alternative is death or permanent lung damage for life.
OK, so when you wrote "The drugs used in the treatment have a long history of treatment with little or no side effects." what you actually meant was "Only one of the drugs used in the treatment doesn't have a long history of treatment with little or no side effects."Bob O'H_{April 5, 2020
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This is simply false.
Thanks for agreeing with me! Your links indicate that your statement is simply false. Yes, hydrochloroquine has a long list of some time side effects that have to be considered but the other two drugs do not have anything serious especially when the alternative is death or permanent lung damage for life. Hydrochloroquine has been widely prescribed since the 1950's. It is on the World Health Organization's List of Essential Medicines, the safest and most effective medicines needed in a health system. Of course The Who is under attack these days. Also Dr. Zelenko received positive support from Dr. Robert Suskind who wants to promote his good work. He is currently dean emeritus of the California University of Science and Medicine. Here is a link to an article about him. https://www.sbsun.com/2015/05/10/cal-med-names-seasoned-educator-as-its-first-dean/ A friend who has a son who is a doctor thinks the resistance is coming from drug companies. If the solution only cost $20, there is nothing in it for them. Yes, a 20 dollar bill will get you out of this horrible mess.jerry_{April 5, 2020
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And the trains, and the cruises and the associated travelling industry.Truthfreedom_{April 5, 2020
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@21 Bob O'H
I’m sorry, but I’m not God, so I don’t know if these treatments actually work.
We are not God yet, but according to materialism, one day we will be. :) Kinda pathetic. Look at our current state. Human knowledge i. e. has helped build the planes that have spread COVID-19 like wildfires.Truthfreedom_{April 5, 2020
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I’m sorry, but I’m not God, so I don’t know if these treatments actually work.
So 900 for 900 is a statistical aberrance? But thanks for letting us know that you did not watch/listen to the interviews/lectures. Also thanks for letting us know that you believe in God.jerry_{April 5, 2020
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What you are advocating is sentencing people to death and overwhelming the hospital system
I'm sorry, but I'm not God, so I don't know if these treatments actually work. And, unless you're God, neither do you.
The drugs used in the treatment have a long history of treatment with little or no side effects.
This is simply false. https://www.drugs.com/sfx/hydroxychloroquine-side-effects.html https://www.drugs.com/sfx/azithromycin-side-effects.html https://www.drugs.com/sfx/zinc-sulfate-side-effects.html
The doctor examined all his patients given the treatment for side effects and none appeared.
He's lucky, then.Bob O'H_{April 5, 2020
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he’s giving 40% of his patients an unnecessary treatment that is known to have side effects, and is not accepted as being effective.
Again you indicate that you have not watched or listened to these links. The people who have been given the medicine are over 60 or have other threatening issues. All you objections are specious and would not have been made if you listened to the podcasts/videos. If you did listen, then your comments may be indicative of something else. What you are advocating is sentencing people to death and overwhelming the hospital system The drugs used in the treatment have a long history of treatment with little or no side effects. The doctor examined all his patients given the treatment for side effects and none appeared. So is a sample of 900 people with flu like or corona like symptoms with 100% success not enough for you?. Especially when a whole country had success with this approach.jerry_{April 5, 2020
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@18 Bob O'H
...we know doctors find it easy to fool themselves
For a moment I thought you were about to write philosophical naturalists.Truthfreedom_{April 5, 2020
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The doctor tests all the patients for COVID19 but it wast taking 3-4 days to get the results back. So he would clinically diagnose them and then verify with the actual test. About 60% had COVID 19.
OK, so he both does and does not test his patients. Helpful. Even by your description, he's giving 40% of his patients an unnecessary treatment that is known to have side effects, and is not accepted as being effective. There's a reason for insisting on clinical trials - we know doctors find it easy to fool themselves that their treatments work, even when they don't(1). Zelenko isn't getting us closer to finding out if his treatment works, basically because we have no idea what would have happened if he hadn't given his patients his treatment. (1) of course, this problem is not limited to doctors.Bob O'H_{April 5, 2020
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So basically we don’t know how many of his patients actually have the corona virus
Yes, we do. Apparently you have not watched any of the videos. The doctor tests all the patients for COVID19 but it wast taking 3-4 days to get the results back. So he would clinically diagnose them and then verify with the actual test. About 60% had COVID 19. 100% success except for the one patient who did not take the medicine. The current FDA commissioner in the US said it would take months to do a traditional test on hydroxychloroquine before the drug could be recommended. No mention of zinc which is what kills the virus. This is the mindset of bureaucrats and it has killed thousands unnecessarily so far. Yes, bureaucrats can be doctors and have Ph.Ds. The mentality of the CDC and FDA in the US is slow and by the book even if you are supposedly smart. This is the procedure that South Korea used to stem its problem. I suggest you take the time to watch the latest video on Dr. Zelenko. He is one of about 5-6 people discussing his results and others. It is actually a podcast on youtube but in it some high level medical people are getting behind him. Interesting that the podcast was made in the town next to where I used to live in New York and where I first bought a house several years ago. It is in suburban New York City. I now live in New Hampshire.jerry_{April 5, 2020
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Jerry @ 11 - Only relevant if he is lying. His results are almost 100%. The one exception is someone who didn’t follow the protocol. He may not be lying, he may indeed think his treatment works. But some of the statements in this article suggest his claims need to be looked at more seriously. In particular:
He said he had been administering the cocktail to patients with shortness of breath of any age, and those over 60 years old or who are immunocompromised and exhibiting milder symptoms.
and
He said he has largely not had his patients tested for coronavirus, because he worried that waiting for test results to begin treatment would compromise the treatment’s effectiveness.
So basically we don't know how many of his patients actually have the corona virus. It could be that his 100% success rate is because 100% of his patients don't have the corona virus.Bob O'H_{April 5, 2020
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kf @ 9 - yes, a huge majority (two thirds) aren't using an unproven therapy, even when we don't know of an effective therapy. But more importantly, nature doesn't operate according to opinion polls. Even if some doctors are using a treatment, it doesn't mean it's effective.Bob O'H_{April 5, 2020
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Jerry, I see. I pointed to Dr Raoult as that is corroboration. Provided by one who seems to be the leading researcher in this area in France. KFkairosfocus_{April 4, 2020
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Kf I was referring to Dr. Zelenko. The NY Times did a hit piece on him but did not impugn his results. By the way, I maintain Bob OH is one of the biggest ID supporters on the site.jerry_{April 4, 2020
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Jerry, It is highly unlikely that Mr Raoult is lying and his results are quite similar for a test on 80 people. The two results mutually reinforce and combine with Raoult's earlier results and other results from around the world to make a serious cumulative case. Such could abstractly be wrong as really weird things happen but such is nowhere near a best explanation. The explanation to beat, now, is that HCQ, especially in a cocktail, works. So, we see the failure of the ideologically coloured selective hyperskepticism model vs the principle of prudence. This wider result speaks volumes to an underlying epistemological failure in our civilisation, which is of course also relevant to the debates over ID. KFkairosfocus_{April 4, 2020
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OTOH, suppose he’s wrong
Only relevant if he is lying. His results are almost 100%. The one exception is someone who didn't follow the protocol.
We know HCQ has side effects, so if it’s not an effective treatment, people promoting its use will also have blood on their hands.
Have you watched the original video? He discusses the side effects and why he only uses it on the high risk population. I believe he said over 60 or younger people who have comorbidity issues.
which is why we need high quality evidence
Is 100% success high quality enough for you? I have provided videos from two US educational medical sites that discuss the success of using zinc and an ionophore. Also the South Koreans used this protocol with success. Hydroxychloroquine is an ionophore and is apparently how it works. If you have contrary information, I am sure people would love to hear it.jerry_{April 4, 2020
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PPS: BTW, see the difference between a skepticism is a virtue, business as usual approach to warrant and a prudence based approach?kairosfocus_{April 4, 2020
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BO'H, notice what the emerging consensus and action of the world's physicians is https://uncommondescent.com/medicine/the-worlds-physicians-weigh-in-they-want-hydroxychloroquine-and-azithromycin/ That is, they agree in essential substance with Dr Zelenko and with Dr Didier Raoult. KF PS: As I keep noting, the old pharmaco prof in my uni started his course with a dictum: pharmacology is the study of poisons in small doses. So, damaging effects at high enough or long term enough doses are to be expected. The effectiveness of HCQ with cocktail taken for short courses in reasonable doses [as tested already] can now be taken as credible. In the face of a highly contagious disease where in 1 1/2 weeks, vulnerable victims to the tune of some 10% are heading for fatal complications, early intervention will even more credibly, be likely to save lives. We are talking of treatments that work in 5+ days. Arguably, frontline workers in reasonable health should consider prophylaxis, too. That's like accepting the hazards of a related drug, Atabrine, in WW2.kairosfocus_{April 4, 2020
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Now suppose that the guy in the article above is right. Who has blood on their hands?
OTOH, suppose he's wrong. We know HCQ has side effects, so if it's not an effective treatment, people promoting its use will also have blood on their hands. At the moment we don't know who is right, which is why we need high quality evidence. Until then, we should do what we know works - physical distancing etc.Bob O'H_{April 4, 2020
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Jerry, American media and politics sadly reflects an ongoing low end 4th generation unacknowledged civil war. The want of responsibility, hostility, closed mindedness, warped thinking and outright deceit are typical of a generation that has lost its way. In my view the central distorting evil is the enabling of the ongoing holocaust of living posterity in the womb, now at what, 400k per year is it, so that the grand fuss being made over SARS-2 victims has a second yardstick, not only the annual flu toll [which is hardly noticed] but the annual or even monthly or weekly abortion toll. From my experience of a somewhat similar breakdown in my native land ending in then unacknowledged low grade civil war and chaotic violence ever since, blood guilt is an even more corrosive and corrupting influence than money-lust. Truth, notoriously, is casualty zero in any war. And if that undermines sound governance, that should not be a surprise. Here, willingness to acknowledge emergence of an increasingly credible treatment. Shortly, DV, I will blog on what seems to be the global verdict of physicians. KFkairosfocus_{April 3, 2020
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Kf, Someone said that in the first three Democratic debates the moderators failed to ask a. question on the virus. The one on February 25 only had Bernie Sanders criticizing Trump on it. No one else commented. I believe there is a logical fallacy going on about this behavior then and now.jerry_{April 3, 2020
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Jerry, correcting the record on where the experts were across January: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/04/03/virus_experts_early_statements_belie_prescient_portrayal_142845.html KFkairosfocus_{April 3, 2020
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KF A comment I made to some friends today
Now suppose that the guy in the article above is right. Who has blood on their hands?
Another link to a medical site and zinc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIymfznD7YAjerry_{April 3, 2020
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Jerry, I linked YouTube. KFkairosfocus_{April 3, 2020
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Believe this contains link to same video. This is an article from today. The video is at bottom. https://techstartups.com/2020/04/03/updates-from-dr-vladimir-zelenko-now-treated-700-coronavirus-patients-with-99-9-success-rate-using-hydroxychloroquine-zinc-sulfate-and-z-pak-1-outpatient-died-after-not-following-protocol-exclusi/ Here is a piece by NY Times that gets some things wrong and is not too positive about this being a solution. They seem to have a stake in discrediting Zelenko. Notice part of the headline "Simple Country Doctor Becomes a Right Wing Star" The New York Times says saving lives is a right wing characteristic. God Bless Them. Though I don't really know what "right wing" is supposed to mean. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/technology/doctor-zelenko-coronavirus-drugs.htmljerry_{April 3, 2020
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Dr Zelenko strikes yet again (at 911 patients and counting . . . )kairosfocus_{April 3, 2020
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