Naturalism

Naturalism is a total failure: Mockery without achievement

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No, you don’t need any more evidence, but where O’Leary for News lives, this is the time of year one cleans out stuff and takes stock.

From David Klinghoffer, quoting a biology grad at Evolution News & Views:

I’m just finishing up my master’s degree in evolutionary biology and likely starting a PhD in evolutionary genetics next fall. I was at an evolutionary genetics lab for a few weeks earlier this year and the world-renowned geneticist there was mocking other views. Even in the absence of answers to big questions like how life started and how new enzymes arise, evolutionary biologists are closed to answers that don’t come from Darwinism. The scorn towards Darwinian skepticism is quite strong in my experience — not that I’ve personally experienced direct scorn, but I see top scientists discussing skepticism in the populace and contempt is always high. As I write this, I can hear my lab mates in the nearby office mocking religion. More.

Mocking religion? These are people who have no idea how to relate information to matter and energy. But that should be their job. Their failure means they are stuck with plumb stupid ideas about information.

They have no idea how to understand the origin of life or human consciousness. and their arguments against falsifiability and objectivity are signs of a failing approach to science.

But they have two things going for them: Lack of awareness of the problem, and a gaggle of political and media supporters who may never understand the issues but know which side of their bread is buttered.

See also: Would we give up naturalism to solve the hard problem of consciousness?

and

What great physicists have said about consciousness.

13 Replies to “Naturalism is a total failure: Mockery without achievement

  1. 1
    bornagain77 says:

    as to:

    “These are people who have no idea how to relate information to matter and energy.”

    Indeed, many Darwinists, not so long ago right here on UD, would flat out deny information was even in life. They would claim it was just a metaphor that they could just as well do without.

    And if you are an anti-theist then there is good reason to deny information really is in life. Information, although it has real effects in the world as is made evident by software, has a transcendent component to its being that simply is not reducible to materialistic explanation. A transcendent component to its being that smacks of the ‘spiritual’ realm.

    Stephen Meyer puts the situation with information like this:

    “One of the things I do in my classes, to get this idea across to students, is I hold up two computer disks. One is loaded with software, and the other one is blank. And I ask them, ‘what is the difference in mass between these two computer disks, as a result of the difference in the information content that they posses’? And of course the answer is, ‘Zero! None! There is no difference as a result of the information. And that’s because information is a mass-less quantity. Now, if information is not a material entity, then how can any materialistic explanation account for its origin? How can any material cause explain it’s origin?
    And this is the real and fundamental problem that the presence of information in biology has posed. It creates a fundamental challenge to the materialistic, evolutionary scenarios because information is a different kind of entity that matter and energy cannot produce.
    In the nineteenth century we thought that there were two fundamental entities in science; matter, and energy. At the beginning of the twenty first century, we now recognize that there’s a third fundamental entity; and its ‘information’. It’s not reducible to matter. It’s not reducible to energy. But it’s still a very important thing that is real; we buy it, we sell it, we send it down wires.
    Now, what do we make of the fact, that information is present at the very root of all biological function? In biology, we have matter, we have energy, but we also have this third, very important entity; information. I think the biology of the information age, poses a fundamental challenge to any materialistic approach to the origin of life.”
    – Stephen Meyer – Intelligent design: Why can’t biological information originate through a materialistic process? – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqiXNxyoof8
    -Dr. Stephen C. Meyer earned his Ph.D. in the History and Philosophy of science from Cambridge University for a dissertation on the history of origin-of-life biology and the methodology of the historical sciences.

    In the following article, George Ellis bluntly states that “Both the program and the data are non-physical entities, indeed so is all software.”

    Recognising Top-Down Causation – George Ellis
    Excerpt: page 5: A:
    Causal Efficacy of Non Physical entities:
    Both the program and the data are non-physical entities, indeed so is all software. A program is not a physical thing you can point to, but by Definition 2 it certainly exists. You can point to a CD or flashdrive where it is stored, but that is not the thing in itself: it is a medium in which it is stored.
    The program itself is an abstract entity, shaped by abstract logic. Is the software “nothing but” its realisation through a specific set of stored electronic states in the computer memory banks? No it is not because it is the precise pattern in those states that matters: a higher level relation that is not apparent at the scale of the electrons themselves. It’s a relational thing (and if you get the relations between the symbols wrong, so you have a syntax error, it will all come to a grinding halt). This abstract nature of software is realised in the concept of virtual machines, which occur at every level in the computer hierarchy except the bottom one [17]. But this tower of virtual machines causes physical effects in the real world, for example when a computer controls a robot in an assembly line to create physical artefacts.
    Excerpt page 7: The assumption that causation is bottom up only is wrong in biology, in computers, and even in many cases in physics,,,
    The mind is not a physical entity, but it certainly is causally effective: proof is the existence of the computer on which you are reading this text. It could not exist if it had not been designed and manufactured according to someone’s plans, thereby proving the causal efficacy of thoughts, which like computer programs and data are not physical entities.
    http://fqxi.org/data/essay-con.....s_2012.pdf

    David Berlinski notes the same immaterial aspect of mathematical information in the following interview:

    An Interview with David Berlinski – Jonathan Witt
    Berlinski: There is no argument against religion that is not also an argument against mathematics. Mathematicians are capable of grasping a world of objects that lies beyond space and time….
    Interviewer:… Come again(?) …
    Berlinski: No need to come again: I got to where I was going the first time. The number four, after all, did not come into existence at a particular time, and it is not going to go out of existence at another time. It is neither here nor there. Nonetheless we are in some sense able to grasp the number by a faculty of our minds. Mathematical intuition is utterly mysterious. So for that matter is the fact that mathematical objects such as a Lie Group or a differentiable manifold have the power to interact with elementary particles or accelerating forces. But these are precisely the claims that theologians have always made as well – that human beings are capable by an exercise of their devotional abilities to come to some understanding of the deity; and the deity, although beyond space and time, is capable of interacting with material objects.
    http://tofspot.blogspot.com/20.....-here.html

    Thus the atheist who is committed to ‘bottom up’ materialistic explanations, and to denying the reality of the immaterial realm, is put in quite the dilemma by the finding of information in life. Information, although it is now found to be the main component that is ‘running the show’ in biology, simply, because it has an irreducible immaterial component to its being, can never be satisfactorily reduced to purely materialistic explanations.

    Whereas, on the other hand, the Theist finds his belief that he has an eternal soul that lives past the death of his material body to be strongly supported by this irresolvable enigma that the immaterial nature of information presents to the Atheist.

    A few related notes:

    The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings – Stephen L. Talbott – 2010
    Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary.
    ,,, the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer?
    Despite the countless processes going on in the cell, and despite the fact that each process might be expected to “go its own way” according to the myriad factors impinging on it from all directions, the actual result is quite different. Rather than becoming progressively disordered in their mutual relations (as indeed happens after death, when the whole dissolves into separate fragments), the processes hold together in a larger unity.
    http://www.thenewatlantis.com/.....-of-beings

    Scientific evidence that we do indeed have an eternal soul (Elaboration on Talbott’s question “What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer?”)– video 2016
    https://youtu.be/h2P45Obl4lQ

    Molecular Biology – 19th Century Materialism meets 21st Century Quantum Mechanics – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCs3WXHqOv8

    Stuart Hameroff – Do we have a quantum Soul?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIyEjh6ef_8

    Quantum Entangled Consciousness – Life After Death – Stuart Hameroff – video (1:55 minute mark)
    https://youtu.be/jjpEc98o_Oo?t=118

    Verse and Quote:

    Mark 8:36-37
    For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
    Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

    “You don’t have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.”
    George MacDonald – Annals of a Quiet Neighborhood – 1892

  2. 2
    Origenes says:

    Bornagain77,

    Both George Ellis and Talbott make a very convincing case. However, I have never understood Meyer’s explanation with the two disks. Maybe you can help me out and point me in the right direction.

    “One of the things I do in my classes, to get this idea across to students, is I hold up two computer disks. One is loaded with software, and the other one is blank. And I ask them, ‘what is the difference in mass between these two computer disks, as a result of the difference in the information content that they posses’? And of course the answer is, ‘Zero! None! There is no difference as a result of the information. And that’s because information is a mass-less quantity.

    So far, I can understand what Meyer is saying. However I understand the difference between the two disks as a difference in form at micro-level. Obviously, a collection of matter can be arranged in different forms — in this case ‘form’ refers to the states of tiny magnetic regions on the two disks. Similarly, a collection of water molecules, which make up a cloud, can produce several different forms.

    Now, if information is not a material entity …

    If I understand Meyer correctly, then his reasoning goes like this: there is no difference in mass between the two disks and therefore information is not a material entity. However, this simply does not follow. Similarly, two distinct clouds, each containing an equal amount of water molecules, can have different forms, but the fact that the two clouds have equal mass obviously doesn’t indicate that those different forms are not part of material entities.

    What am I missing here?

  3. 3
    bornagain77 says:

    Does one of the clouds happen to have the complete works of Shakespeare encoded within it? If not, then no immaterial information has been imparted to the cloud by a mind.

    Researchers storing information securely in DNA – July 11, 2016
    Excerpt: Bachand was inspired by the recording of all of Shakespeare’s sonnets into 2.5 million base pairs of DNA—about half the genome of the tiny E. coli bacterium. Using this method, the group at the European Bioinformatics Institute could theoretically store 2.2 petabytes of information—200 times the printed material in the Library of Congress—in one gram of DNA.
    http://phys.org/news/2016-07-dna.html

    Stephen C. Meyer – Signature In The Cell:
    “DNA functions like a software program,” “We know from experience that software comes from programmers. Information–whether inscribed in hieroglyphics, written in a book or encoded in a radio signal–always arises from an intelligent source. So the discovery of digital code in DNA provides evidence that the information in DNA also had an intelligent source.”
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....ligen.html

    “Mechanisms, whether man-made or morphological, are boundary conditions harnessing the laws of inanimate nature, being themselves irreducible to those laws. The pattern of organic bases in DNA which functions as a genetic code is a boundary condition irreducible to physics and chemistry.”
    Michael Polanyi – Hungarian polymath – 1968 – Science (Vol. 160. no. 3834, pp. 1308 – 1312)

    A few notes on the physical reality of ‘immaterial’ information:

    In the following paper, Dr Andy C. McIntosh, who is professor of thermodynamics and combustion theory at the University of Leeds, holds that it is non-material information that constrains biological life to be so far out of thermodynamic equilibrium. Moreover, Dr. McIntosh holds that regarding information as independent of energy and matter ‘resolves the thermodynamic issues and invokes the correct paradigm for understanding the vital area of thermodynamic/organisational interactions’.

    Information and Thermodynamics in Living Systems – Andy C. McIntosh – 2013
    Excerpt: ,,, information is in fact non-material and that the coded information systems (such as, but not restricted to the coding of DNA in all living systems) is not defined at all by the biochemistry or physics of the molecules used to store the data. Rather than matter and energy defining the information sitting on the polymers of life, this approach posits that the reverse is in fact the case. Information has its definition outside the matter and energy on which it sits, and furthermore constrains it to operate in a highly non-equilibrium thermodynamic environment. This proposal resolves the thermodynamic issues and invokes the correct paradigm for understanding the vital area of thermodynamic/organisational interactions, which despite the efforts from alternative paradigms has not given a satisfactory explanation of the way information in systems operates.,,,
    http://www.worldscientific.com.....08728_0008

    Of related note to Dr. McIntosh’s contention that it must be information which constrains biological life to be so far out of thermodynamic equilibrium, information has now been experimentally shown to have a ‘thermodynamic content’

    Maxwell’s demon demonstration (knowledge of a particle’s position) turns information into energy – November 2010
    Excerpt: Scientists in Japan are the first to have succeeded in converting information into free energy in an experiment that verifies the “Maxwell demon” thought experiment devised in 1867.,,, In Maxwell’s thought experiment the demon creates a temperature difference simply from information about the gas molecule temperatures and without transferring any energy directly to them.,,, Until now, demonstrating the conversion of information to energy has been elusive, but University of Tokyo physicist Masaki Sano and colleagues have succeeded in demonstrating it in a nano-scale experiment. In a paper published in Nature Physics they describe how they coaxed a Brownian particle to travel upwards on a “spiral-staircase-like” potential energy created by an electric field solely on the basis of information on its location. As the particle traveled up the staircase it gained energy from moving to an area of higher potential, and the team was able to measure precisely how much energy had been converted from information.
    http://www.physorg.com/news/20.....nergy.html

    Demonic device converts information to energy – 2010
    Excerpt: “This is a beautiful experimental demonstration that information has a thermodynamic content,” says Christopher Jarzynski, a statistical chemist at the University of Maryland in College Park. In 1997, Jarzynski formulated an equation to define the amount of energy that could theoretically be converted from a unit of information2; the work by Sano and his team has now confirmed this equation. “This tells us something new about how the laws of thermodynamics work on the microscopic scale,” says Jarzynski.
    http://www.scientificamerican......rts-inform

    Information: From Maxwell’s demon to Landauer’s eraser – Lutz and Ciliberto – Oct. 25, 2015 – Physics Today
    Excerpt: The above examples of gedanken-turned-real experiments provide a firm empirical foundation for the physics of information and tangible evidence of the intimate connection between information and energy. They have been followed by additional experiments and simulations along similar lines.12 (See, for example, Physics Today, August 2014, page 60.) Collectively, that body of experimental work further demonstrates the equivalence of information and thermodynamic entropies at thermal equilibrium.,,,
    (2008) Sagawa and Ueda’s (theoretical) result extends the second law to explicitly incorporate information; it shows that information, entropy, and energy should be treated on equal footings.
    http://www.johnboccio.com/rese.....mation.pdf
    J. Parrondo, J. Horowitz, and T. Sagawa. Thermodynamics of information.
    Nature Physics, 11:131-139, 2015.

  4. 4
    bornagain77 says:

    Of related note to immaterial information having a ‘thermodynamic content’, classical ‘digital’ information is found to be a subset of ‘non-local’, (i.e. beyond space and time), quantum entanglement/information by the following method:

    Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011
    Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect;
    In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.”
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....134300.htm

    Scientists show how to erase information without using energy – January 2011
    Excerpt: Until now, scientists have thought that the process of erasing information requires energy. But a new study shows that, theoretically, information can be erased without using any energy at all.,,, “Landauer said that information is physical because it takes energy to erase it. We are saying that the reason it (information) is physical has a broader context than that.”, Vaccaro explained.
    http://www.physorg.com/news/20.....nergy.html

    New Scientist astounds: Information is physical – May 13, 2016
    Excerpt: Recently came the most startling demonstration yet: a tiny machine powered purely by information, which chilled metal through the power of its knowledge. This seemingly magical device could put us on the road to new, more efficient nanoscale machines, a better understanding of the workings of life, and a more complete picture of perhaps our most fundamental theory of the physical world.
    http://www.uncommondescent.com.....-physical/

    Of related note, besides classical digital information in life, there is also quantum information in life

    “What happens is this classical information (of DNA) is embedded, sandwiched, into the quantum information (of DNA). And most likely this classical information is never accessed because it is inside all the quantum information. You can only access the quantum information or the electron clouds and the protons. So mathematically you can describe that as a quantum/classical state.”
    Elisabeth Rieper – Classical and Quantum Information in DNA – video (Longitudinal Quantum Information resides along the entire length of DNA discussed at the 19:30 minute mark; at 24:00 minute mark Dr Rieper remarks that practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it)
    https://youtu.be/2nqHOnVTxJE?t=1176

    Classical and Quantum Information Channels in Protein Chain – Dj. Koruga, A. Tomi?, Z. Ratkaj, L. Matija – 2006
    Abstract: Investigation of the properties of peptide plane in protein chain from both classical and quantum approach is presented. We calculated interatomic force constants for peptide plane and hydrogen bonds between peptide planes in protein chain. On the basis of force constants, displacements of each atom in peptide plane, and time of action we found that the value of the peptide plane action is close to the Planck constant. This indicates that peptide plane from the energy viewpoint possesses synergetic classical/quantum properties. Consideration of peptide planes in protein chain from information viewpoint also shows that protein chain possesses classical and quantum properties. So, it appears that protein chain behaves as a triple dual system: (1) structural – amino acids and peptide planes, (2) energy – classical and quantum state, and (3) information – classical and quantum coding. Based on experimental facts of protein chain, we proposed from the structure-energy-information viewpoint its synergetic code system.
    http://www.scientific.net/MSF.518.491

    And then the coup de grace for demonstrating that immaterial information is its own distinct physical entity, separate from matter and energy, is Quantum Teleportation:

    Quantum Teleportation Enters the Real World – September 19, 2016
    Excerpt: Two separate teams of scientists have taken quantum teleportation from the lab into the real world.
    Researchers working in Calgary, Canada and Hefei, China, used existing fiber optics networks to transmit small units of information across cities via quantum entanglement — Einstein’s “spooky action at a distance.”,,,
    This isn’t teleportation in the “Star Trek” sense — the photons aren’t disappearing from one place and appearing in another. Instead, it’s the information that’s being teleported through quantum entanglement.,,,
    ,,, it is only the information that gets teleported from one place to another.
    http://blogs.discovermagazine......-HqWNEoDtR

    Quote:

    “The mechanical brain does not secrete thought “as the liver does bile,” as the earlier materialists claimed, nor does it put it out in the form of energy, as the muscle puts out its activity. Information is information, not matter or energy. No materialism which does not admit this can survive at the present day. “
    Norbert Weiner – MIT Mathematician – (Cybernetics, 2nd edition, p.132)

    Verse:

    John 1:1-4
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

  5. 5
    groovamos says:

    News should be more careful. If News were studying mathematics or the hard sciences like I have, she would I think have more respect for the dizzying harmony revealed by naturalism. And better understand the seducing, intoxicating effect it can have on academics. And their conversion into totalitarians, unfortunately. Kind of like the intoxicating effects of Marxism, or progressivism in general.

    A post with a title like this is making it worse for ID. We should be focusing on the arrogance of naturalism in venturing where it cannot successfully go such as the origin of the universe, or my favorite approach, the abject failure of naturalism in the study of the roots of consciousness.

    We have some new allies (unwittingly I’m sure) in the pushback against arrogant naturalism, linguists. This is an area where naturalism is virtually sure to fail: http://journal.frontiersin.org.....00401/full

  6. 6
    Origenes says:

    Bornagain77,

    Does one of the clouds happen to have the complete works of Shakespeare encoded within it? If not, then no immaterial information has been imparted to the cloud by a mind.

    I agree. Blind chemistry cannot produce information. But that’s not Meyer’s argument. I still don’t understand what Meyer is trying to convey with the equal mass of the two disks.
    Suppose two clouds with equal mass. Also suppose that someone rearranges one of them into “E=MC^2”. Now why should the fact that they are equal in mass convince us that information is immaterial? Why should we ignore the obvious difference in form? A difference in form which is invisible for the naked eye in Meyer’s two disks scenario.

  7. 7
    bornagain77 says:

    Meyer’s simple point, which you yourself illustrated, is that the information is not reducible to the material medium on which it is encoded.

    Do you agree that e=mc2 is information? Do you agree that e=mc2 is real? Do you agree that the information is not reducible to the material cloud? Then, you have agreed with all the basic points of Meyer’s simple illustration demonstrating that information is real yet it is not material.

    Of related note:

    It is also very interesting to point out that the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’, reported in many Near Death Experiences(NDEs), is also corroborated by Special Relativity when considering the optical effects for approaching the speed of light. Please compare the similarity of the optical effect, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as a ‘hypothetical’ observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light, with the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ reported in very many Near Death Experiences: (Of note: This following video was made by two Australian University Physics Professors with a supercomputer by simulating Einstein’s Special Relativity on the computer.)

    Approaching The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects of Special Relativity – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQnHTKZBTI4

    NDE quotes:

    “I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.”
    Barbara Springer – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv2jLeoAcMI

    “Regardless, it is impossible for me to adequately describe what I saw and felt. When I try to recount my experiences now, the description feels very pale. I feel as though I’m trying to describe a three-dimensional experience while living in a two-dimensional world. The appropriate words, descriptions and concepts don’t even exist in our current language. I have subsequently read the accounts of other people’s near-death experiences and their portrayals of heaven and I able to see the same limitations in their descriptions and vocabulary that I see in my own.”
    Mary C. Neal, MD – To Heaven And Back pg. 71

  8. 8
    Origenes says:

    Bornagain77,

    Meyer’s simple point, which you yourself illustrated, is that the information is not reducible to the material medium on which it is encoded.

    Do you agree that e=mc2 is information? Do you agree that e=mc2 is real? Do you agree that the information is not reducible to the material cloud?

    I agree with all points, but my agreement has nothing to do with Meyer holding up two computer disks. Again, I don’t understand Meyer’s point when he draws attention to equal mass.

    Then, you have agreed with all the points of Meyer’s simple illustration demonstrating that information is real yet it is not material.

    So pointing to equal mass — and ignoring difference in form — somehow demonstrates all that?

  9. 9
    Seversky says:

    Meyer misses the point which is that we only know information through arrangements of matter. Whether as marks on paper, holes punched through paper tape, a spiral groove o a disk, patterns in the magnetic coating on a tape or disk or tiny pits etched on the surface of a disk, material devices and contrivances are how we know information. One of the original meanings of the word “information” is to “give form to” and you give form to matter. When you and I are informed about something there are corresponding material changes in the brain. Naturalism or materialism may not be the whole story but is perverse to deny that it is part of it.

  10. 10
    bornagain77 says:

    Origenes,

    Do you agree that e=mc2 is information? Do you agree that e=mc2 is real? Do you agree that the information is not reducible to the material cloud?

    I agree with all points,

    So you agree that information is real and is not reducible to matter? If so, then you agree that REAL information is immaterial! If follows necessarily!

    That is not to say information cannot have real effects on matter, which it certainly does (G. Ellis – top down causal effect), it is simply to state that information is not matter or energy. i.e. It is immaterial.

    This is my last reply on the subject.

  11. 11
    Origenes says:

    Seversky,

    … we only know information through arrangements of matter. Whether as marks on paper, holes punched through paper tape, a spiral groove o a disk, patterns in the magnetic coating on a tape or disk or tiny pits etched on the surface of a disk, material devices and contrivances are how we know information. One of the original meanings of the word “information” is to “give form to” and you give form to matter.

    Assuming that telepathy does not exist, this is indeed how we must communicate during our earthly stay.
    However, before I communicate my thoughts with you, before I “give form to” matter by creating this post, is “information” chemistry and produced by chemistry? Let me just say that I know some pretty persuasive arguments that this cannot be the case.

  12. 12
    Origenes says:

    Bornagain77,

    So you agree that information is real and is not reducible to matter? If so, then you agree that REAL information is immaterial! If follows necessarily!

    Of course you are right. I agree completely.

    This is my last reply on the subject.

    Thank you for your effort.

  13. 13

    “But they have two things going for them: Lack of awareness of the problem, and a gaggle of political and media supporters who may never understand the issues but know which side of their bread is buttered.”

    Could not have said it better myself.

    BornAgain77: Teaching truth…as usual. Thank you.

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