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Three diverse animals independently arrived at maximal fin speed solution

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From ScienceDaily:

Moving one’s body rapidly through water is a key to existence for many species. The Persian carpet flatworm, the cuttlefish and the black ghost knifefish look nothing like each other — their last common ancestor lived 550 million years ago, before the Cambrian period — a new study uses computer simulations, a robotic fish and video footage of real fish to show that all three aquatic creatures have evolved to swim using the same mechanical motion.

These three animals are part of a very diverse group of aquatic animals — both vertebrate and invertebrate — that independently arrived at the same solution of how to use their fins to maximize speed. And, remarkably, this so-called “convergent” evolution happened at least eight times across three different phyla, or animal groups, supporting the belief that necessity played a larger role than chance in developing this trait. The findings could help scientists better understand evolution as well as help pave the way for highly agile underwater vehicles.

“Chance does play a role in these animals — they don’t all adhere exactly to the optimal number 20 — but there is a point where variability can become deadly, that swimming with the wrong mechanics means you waste energy and won’t survive,” MacIver said. “The ratio of 20 is best.”More.

 

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Examples of animals evolving similar traits despite the absence of that trait in the last common ancestor, such as the wing and camera-type lens eye in vertebrates and invertebrates, are called cases of convergent evolution. – Rahul Bale et al.

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Here’s the abstract:

Examples of animals evolving similar traits despite the absence of that trait in the last common ancestor, such as the wing and camera-type lens eye in vertebrates and invertebrates, are called cases of convergent evolution. Instances of convergent evolution of locomotory patterns that quantitatively agree with the mechanically optimal solution are very rare. Here, we show that, with respect to a very diverse group of aquatic animals, a mechanically optimal method of swimming with elongated fins has evolved independently at least eight times in both vertebrate and invertebrate swimmers across three different phyla. Specifically, if we take the length of an undulation along an animal’s fin during swimming and divide it by the mean amplitude of undulations along the fin length, the result is consistently around twenty. We call this value the optimal specific wavelength (OSW). We show that the OSW maximizes the force generated by the body, which also maximizes swimming speed. We hypothesize a mechanical basis for this optimality and suggest reasons for its repeated emergence through evolution. Open access – Rahul Bale, Izaak D. Neveln, Amneet Pal Singh Bhalla, Malcolm A. MacIver, Neelesh A. Patankar. Convergent Evolution of Mechanically Optimal Locomotion in Aquatic Invertebrates and Vertebrates. PLOS Biology, 2015; 13 (4): e1002123 DOI: 10.1371/journal.pbio.1002123

So not only did life forms have to solve a special problem of  rapid locomotion, different ones had to solve it a number of times, with few if any hints from their ancestry. What are the informational probabilities of that? Wouldn’t the odds against this be greater than against it happening just once?

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Comments
good:
So physics says that the ratio of 20 is best, and people are surprised that the different species tend to “converge” at around 20? That would be like being surprised at the “convergent evolution” of arctic animals tending to be white. If we find a species that doesn’t adhere to the ratio of 20, that would require some explanation.
This is idiotic. Optimization is an age-old custom among intelligent designers. It's called engineering. And no, ID proponents are not surprised in the least.Mapou
April 30, 2015
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For all these animals' fins, the team found that the length of one undulation during swimming divided by the mean amplitude of the sideways movement is always a ratio of around 20.
So physics says that the ratio of 20 is best, and people are surprised that the different species tend to "converge" at around 20? That would be like being surprised at the "convergent evolution" of arctic animals tending to be white. If we find a species that doesn't adhere to the ratio of 20, that would require some explanation.goodusername
April 30, 2015
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Good thread on a problem in evo biology. The common duplication of traits of very different creatures for like needs. Chance mutations are unlikely the mechanism. The winners with these mutations prevailing is silly. In fact as better investigation goes on it will be seen likeness is very common and needs better explanation then evo bio does today. Evos would rather jave every creature very different for like needs and then say AHA just as we predicted. Yet its the opposite. It doesn't work eh. They do invoke convergent evolution like crazy as in the placental/marsupial issue. Yet its unlikely. marsupials are just placentas with pouches.Robert Byers
April 30, 2015
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Every time a Darwinist opens his or her mouth to say anything, Sir Karl Popper spins in his grave and swears.Mapou
April 30, 2015
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Yes if one rules out a common design the only other answer is convergent evolution. However even that doesn't say unguided evolution didit. It would be nice if someone could actually test the claims of evolutionists.Joe
April 30, 2015
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ppolish: It’s muscle, bone, or blood. Darwin and his contemporaries were very aware of many types of tissue. You seem to have abandoned your previous tack, which was that organisms “converge so closely as to lead to a near approach to identity throughout their whole organisation.” On the contrary, the relationships of organisms can still be determined from their overall traits, while structures molded by natural selection stand out against the backdrop of phylogenetic relationships. ppolish: not like 1:100000000000000000000 chance of electric convergent. Actually, Gallant et al. showed how similar regulatory pathways could be targeted by selection even though they exhibited different morphologies.Zachriel
April 30, 2015
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It's muscle, bone, or blood. Blood Letting was common in Darwin's time, so he probably thought bone or muscle a better choice. 50:50 chance to get it right. Those are good odds, not like 1:100000000000000000000 chance of electric convergent. The author of the paper in the Science Daily article in the OP says "Physics or Chance". It's Physics Zachary. Evolution guided by Math. So the debate becomes "Is Math natural or unnatural". Natural Laws or Unnatural Laws. Whichever, EVO is guided. Chance no longer acceptable Scientifically. Unguided is silly talk. Purposeless is immature.ppolish
April 30, 2015
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Nothing undermines Darwinism. Just say "dirt did it!" and, instantly, it happened. Let there be convergence and there it was. It's called "time travel creation". Magical poofery all around.Mapou
April 30, 2015
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ppolish: Fast forward to the present and we have better understanding. 1866: Darwin hypothesized that electric organs in fish are due to convergent evolution, adapted from muscle. See Darwin, Origin of Species, 4th edition 1866. 2014: Scientists determine electric organs in fish are due to convergent evolution, and how they adapted from muscle. See Gallant et al., Genomic basis for the convergent evolution of electric organs, Science 2014. Lucky guess?Zachriel
April 30, 2015
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I did reread The Origin of Species recently Zachary, but thank you for reminding me of the electric fish. Darwin starts off by saying "The electric organs of fishes offer another case of special difficulty; for it is impossible to conceive by what steps these wondrous organs have been produced. But this is not surprising, for we do not even know of what use they are." Fast forward to the present and we have better understanding. Electric mammals even. It should not be surprising that Science Daily refers to "so called convergent evolution" in this day and age. Natural Selection can no longer be depended on. So called Natural Selection. Purposeful guided use of Designs is becoming more and more obvious. Exciting times.ppolish
April 30, 2015
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ppolish: So the “convergence” that Charles was discussing is not the same convergence that is seen in the OP. It's the same convergence. ppolish: Did Charles {Darwin} ever give an example of convergence? Sure. An interesting example is the electric organ.
Darwin: if the electric organs had been inherited from some one ancient progenitor, we might have expected that all electric fishes would have been specially related to each other; but this is far from the case. Nor does geology at all lead to the belief that most fishes formerly possessed electric organs, which their modified descendants have now lost.
Phylogenetic relationships, of course, are determined by the entire scope of traits.
Darwin: Hence in the several fishes furnished with electric organs, these cannot be considered as homologous, but only as analogous in function.
Analogous being Darwin's term for convergence. Darwin goes on to point out the close resemblance in fish of muscles and the electric organ. The hypothesis has empirical implications. 1866: Darwin hypothesized that electric organs in fish are due to convergent evolution, adapted from muscle. See Darwin, Origin of Species, 4th edition 1866. 2014: Scientists determine electric organs in fish are due to convergent evolution, and how they adapted from muscle. See Gallant et al., Genomic basis for the convergent evolution of electric organs, Science 2014.Zachriel
April 30, 2015
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So the "convergence" that Charles was discussing is not the same convergence that is seen in the OP. Did Charles ever give an example of convergence? Specific critters?ppolish
April 30, 2015
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ppolish: “if this had occurred, we should meet with the same form, independently of genetic connection, recurring in widely separated geological formations; and the balance of evidence is opposed to any such an admission.” But that's not what we see. We don't see organisms "converge so closely as to lead to a near approach to identity throughout their whole organisation." Rather, only certain traits, those most associated with specific adaptations, converge, while the rest of the organism retains the features of its phylogenetic position.Zachriel
April 30, 2015
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Zachary, yes, Charles would consider it incredible. Did you read his next sentence? "if this had occurred, we should meet with the same form, independently of genetic connection, recurring in widely separated geological formations; and the balance of evidence is opposed to any such an admission." "If this had occurred" is now "Occurs all the time".ppolish
April 30, 2015
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tjguy: When you have organisms that are related genetically and look alike, that is homology and is claimed as evidence for evolution. The relationship is determined by the overall scope of traits, including genetic traits, that is, the phylogenetic fit. Convergence is in specific structures that are under selection. tjguy: So, if you have organisms that are not related genetically yet have the same functions/genes, etc., that should then be evidence against evolution. No, they are exceptions against the background nested hierarchy pattern, having been shaped by selection. So we have the flatworm, cuttlefish and knifefish. Their overall fit to the nested hierarchy is not in dispute, even though the one trait is shared. The convergence has to do with mobility in a watery environment. It's the same reason fish and dolphins have hydrodynamic skin, even though they are only distantly related.Zachriel
April 30, 2015
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ppolish: Chapter 4 Section “Convergence of Character” had Charles D downplaying convergence and praising divergence. Convergence is a consequence of natural selection; however, Darwin: It is incredible that the descendants of two organisms, which had originally differed in a marked manner, should ever afterwards converge so closely as to lead to a near approach to identity throughout their whole organisation. ppolish: How would Charles handle all the evidence of convergence that had come to light since his Victorian Era? In stride, per his statement.Zachriel
April 30, 2015
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Zachriel @ 3 & 9
It’s called convergence. Not sure why it would be considered a fundamental issue. Perhaps, but convergence has been part of the theory of evolution since Darwin, so finding convergence would hardly undermine the theory.
It's a fundamental issue Zachary, because the idea of convergence means that evolution is unfalsifiable. When you have organisms that are related genetically and look alike, that is homology and is claimed as evidence for evolution. So, if you have organisms that are not related genetically yet have the same functions/genes, etc., that should then be evidence against evolution. But that is not the case. Even when the evidence does not support common descent, it is still claimed as evidence for evolution. It's the old "heads I win, tails you lose" scenario. Can you prove it was convergence? No, but that doesn't matter. It has to be because there is no other option in your worldview so you have to stick by that answer. In other words, no matter what you find, evolution can explain it. Andre was right! "When a person suffers from evolutiondidit syndrome, it's very hard to distinguish fact from fiction." No matter how you slice it, evolution does not predict convergence and especially the almost innumerable examples of it. It is ubiquitous! Are you really prepared to accept random mutation as the answer to that anomaly?tjguy
April 30, 2015
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Zachary, Chapter 4 Section "Convergence of Character" had Charles D downplaying convergence and praising divergence. How would Charles handle all the evidence of convergence that had come to light since his Victorian Era?ppolish
April 30, 2015
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Andre: When a person suffers from evolutiondidit syndrome it’s very hard to distinguish fact from fiction. Perhaps, but convergence has been part of the theory of evolution since Darwin, so finding convergence would hardly undermine the theory.Zachriel
April 30, 2015
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At the molecular machine level, 100% random unguided would lead to instant death. Only a very very very small amount of random is allowed. At the phenotype level, random walking with no purpose will lead to failure. There are laws against that.ppolish
April 30, 2015
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News, Andre, Silver Asiatic,
So not only did life forms have to solve a special problem of rapid locomotion, different ones had to solve it a number of times, with few if any hints from their ancestry. What are the informational probabilities of that? Wouldn’t the odds against this be greater than against it happening just once?
What's the big deal? What's all the hype about? All that stuff is easily explained in this book: http://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-319-13990-6 Anyone who doesn't understand the above book might want to consider watching the lectures on development referenced in the following post. Note the highlighted comments made by the professor, who is an expert on the subject: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/mystery-at-the-heart-of-life/#comment-561160 ;-)Dionisio
April 30, 2015
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Zachriel When a person suffers from evolutiondidit syndrome it's very hard to distinguish fact from fiction. It is a terrible debilitating diseaseAndre
April 30, 2015
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That's an amazing little item - thank you, News. The ScienceNews intro to the article has some curious phrasing ...
And, remarkably, this so-called "convergent" evolution happened at least eight times across three different phyla, or animal groups, supporting the belief that necessity played a larger role than chance in developing this trait.
Of course, why 'remarkably'. This is just convergence. Not a big deal. Same solution, at least 8 times independently ... that's remarkable? Nahhh - it's called convergence. Not even a fundamental issue to be concerned about. :-) But then there's this ... this so-called "convergent" evolution ... So-called? And convergent with scare quotes? Is there a closet IDist on the staff there? :-) We could talk more about "necessity rather than chance" -- also. (Zachriel, you might want to go there and explain that it's called convergence and there's nothing remarkable about it at all.)Silver Asiatic
April 30, 2015
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Seems like this paper fits Dr Wells 'template' to a tee Jonathan Wells on pop science boilerplate - April 20, 2015 Excerpt: Based on my reading of thousands of Peer-Reviewed Articles in the professional literature, I’ve distilled (the) template for writing scientific articles that deal with evolution: 1. (Presuppose that) Darwinian evolution is a fact. 2. We used [technique(s)] to study [feature(s)] in [name of species], and we unexpectedly found [results inconsistent with Darwinian evolution]. 3. We propose [clever speculations], which might explain why the results appear to conflict with evolutionary theory. 4. We conclude that Darwinian evolution is a fact. https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/jon-wells-on-pop-science-boilerplate/bornagain77
April 30, 2015
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Andre: Thank you Darwin so long It's called convergence. Not sure why it would be considered a fundamental issue.Zachriel
April 30, 2015
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So there you have it 8 times confirmed evolution is a goal orientated process. Thank you Darwin so long and thank you for the fish.Andre
April 30, 2015
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Nice find News! :)bornagain77
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