Democracies Fail Without Adult Supervision

_{Barry Arrington

November 16, 2018

Off Topic}

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Pure democracies are inherently unstable. Exhibit A for why that is so:

Progressive Democrat Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

The reason for the fiscal instability of a pure democracy was captured in a widely circulated quotation usually attributed to Alexander Fraser Tytler:

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy . . .

Ocasio-Cortez has a list of goodies she wants the federal government to dispense, including Medicare for all, jobs guarantees, student loan forgiveness, free college, paid family leave, and Social Security expansion. The price tag is $40 trillion (with a “t”) over the next 10 years. We would have to more than double federal taxes to pay for it all.

When asked how she proposes to pay for all of this she responded, “the same way you pay for anything; you just pay for it.” It is truly frightening that someone as aggressively stupid as Ocasio-Cortez was not only elected to the United States House of Representatives, she was elected easily by a very wide margin.

The glory of the American system of government established by the Constitution is that it provides for majority rule with distinctly anti-majoritarian checks. It is, as it were, “democracy with adult supervision.” Ocasio-Cortez needs adult supervision. It does not take a genius to realize that if she ran the House and Sanders ran the Senate the county would go bankrupt so fast your head would spin.

Keep this in mind the next time you hear some pundit whine about how insufficiently democratic our federal government is. The Constitution did not establish a democracy. To which I say, thank God.

And , yes, this post has nothing to do with ID.

Comments

Very good article:
Socialism’s Empty Seduction - Charles Calomiris - November 16, 2018 Excerpt: Calomiris: "Socialism has never conquered poverty. It has never competed with capitalism as a means of effectively allocating resources and promoting sustainable growth. Over the past half century, scores of economic historians have sought to explain the factors that produced the economic progress that Europe and some of its offshoots enjoyed in the 18th-20th centuries. This group of scholars, which includes Angus Maddison, Joel Mokyr, Eric Jones, David Landes, Deirdre McCloskey and Douglass North, tend to hold quite diverse political preferences, but they universally agree on the facts: Government policies that safeguard a combination of personal economic freedom, secure property rights, and the ability of individuals to gain personally by participating in markets have promoted the effort and innovation that conquered poverty and promoted growth through the ages." https://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/charles-calomiris/socialisms-empty-seduction
bornagain77_{November 20, 2018
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European Socialism: Why America Doesn't Want It https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/10/25/european-socialism-why-america-doesnt-want-it/#65b414bd1ea6
As was pointed out by john_a_designer, "Who saved Europe and the world for the purpose of making it “safe for democracy” not once but twice during the last century?", ,,, It is truly sad that the left now desperately wants America to follow the 'leftist experiment' of socialist Europe when Europe has failed so miserably at 'leftist social experimentation' in the past century, and, when looking under the current 'leftist economic hood' of Europe, is clearly headed towards disaster once again. Such naivete, i.e. lack of wisdom, on the part of the left would be humorous if not for the fact that their lack of wisdom will very likely result, once again, in the untold misery for countless millions in Europe. Trivia note: Contrary to what the fake news tells you, Nazis were actually socialists not capitalists.
Socialists and Fascists Have Always Been Kissing Cousins By BRADLEY J. BIRZER • November 9, 2018 Excerpt: Equally disturbing is that most younger defenders of communism buy into the oldest propaganda line of the Left—that real communism has never been tried and fascism is the polar opposite of communism. That the Nazis were actually “National Socialists,” these apologists argue, was merely a cynical ploy on the part of Hitler to gain the support of the working and middle classes of Germany.,,, That the National Socialists embraced socialism is factually accurate. Though they did not nationalize to the extent the Leninists wanted, they did nationalize very vital industry in Germany, even if by outright intimidation rather than through the law. In his personal diaries, Joseph Goebbels wrote in late 1925: “It would be better for us to end our existence under Bolshevism than to endure slavery under capitalism.” Only a few months later, he continued, “I think it is terrible that we and the Communists are bashing in each other’s heads.” Whatever the state of the rivalry between the two camps, Goebbels claimed, the two forces should ally and conquer. He even reached out to a communist in a personal letter: “We are not really enemies,” he offered. Hitler admired Stalin, and the two willingly carved up Poland in 1939. One SS division named itself after Florian Geyer, a Marxist hero promoted by Frederick Engels in The Peasant War in Germany. Hitler actively recruited communists into the National Socialist movement, believing they were far more malleable than Christians. The Italian fascists had even closer ties to the Marxists, with Mussolini having begun his career as a Marxist publicist and writer. A few Italian fascists even held positions in the Comintern. The only serious divide between the Italian fascists (or those who would become fascists) and Italian communists in the 1910s was their support, or not, of Italy’s participation in World War I. In the West, one of the first to recognize these vital connections was none other than Friedrich Hayek, the Austrian turned Englishman. Nationalism is nothing “but a twin brother of socialism,” he proclaimed in a 1945 speech in Dublin. https://www.theamericanconservative.com/birzer/socialists-and-fascists-have-always-been-kissing-cousins/
Of related note: The present economic condition of California, from its once enviable stature, also offers Americans a small glimpse into the disaster that leftist socialistic policies will eventually lead to
The Top Four Reasons California Is Unsustainable - 2018 https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasdelbeccaro/2018/04/19/the-top-four-reasons-california-is-unsustainable/
bornagain77_{November 20, 2018
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It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between paid maternity leave and abortion rates. Does anyone here know if this has been looked at?
I don't know, and couldn't find anything with a quick google search, but I would imagine it would be difficult to estimate this, because this is probably correlated with other forms of reproductive health. I did find this paper which estimates pregnancy globally. Table 1 gives the estimates for intended and unintended pregnancies: North America has a rate of unintended pregnancies of 48 per 1000 women per year. Globally the number is 55, and for Europe it is 38 (Asia: 49, Latin America & Caribbean: 72, Oceania: 44, Africa: 86).Bob O'H_{November 20, 2018
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Jad
Who saved Europe and the world for the purpose of making it “safe for democracy” not once but twice during the last century? Who continues to pay the lions share for the defense of Europe.
Historians say that the soviets did more to defeat Hitler than the western allies. Not to mention the fact that the US economy benefited by sitting out the first years of both wars.
By the way, for the record, the U.S. continues to accept on average over a million legal immigrants each year.
True. But how do you explain that the third most populous nation is 28th in net immigration rates. Even behind Canada, which is 1/10th the population.
How in the world did mankind survive so long without “Paid Maternity leave”?
If you are proud to be the only OECD country without paid maternity leave, be my guest. But am I the only one who sees the disconnect between this and the very strong anti-abortion movement in the US? It would seem a no-brainer that if you want to eliminate abortions, the first step is to eliminate the financial impediments to having a baby. It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between paid maternity leave and abortion rates. Does anyone here know if this has been looked at?Ed George_{November 19, 2018
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Ed George to Mimus,
I tend to agree with you. I travel extensively with my work and interact with people from many countries. It is true that people from many of the developing nations are envious of the US. But that is not the case for people in the developed world.
Who saved Europe and the world for the purpose of making it “safe for democracy” not once but twice during the last century? Who continues to pay the lions share for the defense of Europe so you can spend your tax money on the welfare? A little gratitude would be nice-- just sayin. (NATO estimates collective defense spending among all member states will total more than $936 billion in 2018. US defense spending accounts for roughly 67% of this…) https://www.businessinsider.com/how-nato-budget-is-funded-2018-7 By the way, for the record, the U.S. continues to accept on average over a million legal immigrants each year. A significant proportion of these are from European countries. We also have a yuge problem with illegal immigration. The point is, people really do want to come here.
But that is not the case for people in the developed world. I think the statistics might explain some of this: Paid Maternity leave: Average for OECD nations is 18 weeks. US is only country with zero.
How in the world did mankind survive so long without “Paid Maternity leave”? And oh, you Trump bashers might want to take a look at this: https://www.businessinsider.com/ivanka-trump-marco-rubio-paid-family-leave-plan-2018-2 I am not saying I support that kind of legislation. I think the money would be better spent on other priorities. Like I said mankind has made it this far without paid maternity leave. I think there are a lot of other problems which are more pressing.john_a_designer_{November 19, 2018
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If he is a citizen of a democratic society he shares a responsibility as to how his society is governed. If he was a citizen of the U.S.A. he would be share a responsibility for how the U.S. is governed. Is that so hard for you to figure out on your own Bob?
No, it's not hard. What's hard is figuring out why you think people like him should be responsible for your government.Bob O'H_{November 19, 2018
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I'll just park this here:
Why Socialism Is Still Awful Despite Its European Image Makeover While conservatives have been busy repudiating outdated communist ideas, the American left has succeeded in selling a new fantasy: the democratic-socialist utopia. http://thefederalist.com/2017/11/13/socialism-still-awful-despite-european-image-makeover/
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Mimus
Or, do put it more simply, countries with more democratic systems are not exactly envious of the American way.
I tend to agree with you. I travel extensively with my work and interact with people from many countries. It is true that people from many of the developing nations are envious of the US. But that is not the case for people in the developed world. I think the statistics might explain some of this: Paid Maternity leave: Average for OECD nations is 18 weeks. US is only country with zero. Infant mortality rate: 34 other countries have lower infant mortality rates. Life expectancy: 30 other countries have longer life expectancy. Quality of life: A subjective index but the US ranks 10th. Health care cost per capita: The US ranks the highest. Murder rate: US definitely doesn't top this list (ranking 90th) but there are 139 countries with lower murder rates. Incarceration rates: The US tops this ranking, marginally above countries like El Salvador and Turkmenistan. But don't get me wrong. I am not American but I have great respect for the US and its people. Whenever there is a natural disaster, the US has always been the first to step up and offer help unconditionally. Even for countries that are enemies. But Trump's xenophobic nationalism and constant lies is doing great damage to the US' reputation and international relationships. But that's enough of my Trump rant.Ed George_{November 19, 2018
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Mimus what country do you live in?bornagain77_{November 19, 2018
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I'm still at a loss as to who "people like me" are. I'm not a US citizen, I live in a functional democracy that lacks any o the anti-democratic fetaures Barry is praising in this OP. I commented because I thought it was a fairly amazing achievement in US-chauvisnm to boast about the benifits of a system that is so broken. Or, do put it more simply, countries with more democratic systems are not exactly envious of the American way.Mimus_{November 19, 2018
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Bob @ 45,
JAD 2 43 – you might want to ask Mimus where he is from.
I did. Did you read my post? I began with “Bob @ 31 and Mimus @ 27,”
He might be Czech or Slovak, both democratic countries. Or he might be Slovene or Croatian. Also democratic countries. You could try to find out first.
Are they culturally and ethnically diverse countries? How long have they existed? Is the U.S.A. with a population of over 325 million a culturally and ethnically diverse society? How long has it existed? Let’s see 2018 minus 1776 is what? 242 years. How could a dysfunctional representative democracy (at least according to Mimus) last so long? Does Mimus really know what he is talking about?
And it’s still not clear why it would be his fault.
I didn’t say it was his fault! I said, “And whose fault is that? Isn’t it people like you?” I also said, “Any democratic society is intrinsically unstable and it’s only as good as its constituents.” Mimus said he is “someone who lives in a representative democracy.” If he is a citizen of a democratic society he shares a responsibility as to how his society is governed. If he was a citizen of the U.S.A. he would be share a responsibility for how the U.S. is governed. Is that so hard for you to figure out on your own Bob?john_a_designer_{November 19, 2018
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JAD 2 43 - you might want to ask Mimus where he is from. He might be Czech or Slovak, both democratic countries. Or he might be Slovene or Croatian. Also democratic countries. You could try to find out first. And it's still not clear why it would be his fault.Bob O'H_{November 19, 2018
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Those passions are the same in all men, under all forms of simple government, and when unchecked, produce the same effects of fraud, violence, and cruelty.
This is an insightful statement. If this was not true, just about any form of government would succeed. At the same time, we'd mostly get by just fine without it. I don't know about other countries, but politics in the US is theater designed to wind people up so they support the same machine from different sides. 99% of the time money and existing power will decide who runs for office. The machine outputs two choices, and voters imagine they have power because they get to choose between them. Electing an occasional outsider doesn't change anything. It preserves the illusion.OldAndrew_{November 19, 2018
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Bob @ 31 and Mimus @ 27,
JAD @ 23 & 25 – I suspect Mimus doesn’t live in the USA. So it’s not obvious what your comment at 23 means. One might guess that any problems with US democracy are primarily the fault of American citizens.
What democratic country is Mimus from? Czechoslovakia? Yugoslavia? Oh that’s right they don’t exist anymore. What happened? Any democratic society is intrinsically unstable and it’s only as good as its constituents. U.S, founding father John Adams understood this very well when he wrote, “Democracy has never been and never can be so durable as aristocracy or monarchy; but while it lasts, it is more bloody than either… [it] never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. It is in vain to say that democracy is less vain, less proud, less selfish, less ambitious, or less avaricious than aristocracy or monarchy. It is not true, in fact, and nowhere appears in history. Those passions are the same in all men, under all forms of simple government, and when unchecked, produce the same effects of fraud, violence, and cruelty.” https://uncommondescent.com/off-topic/democracies-fail-without-adult-supervision/#comment-668515 How long has the U.S. existed? Is it culturally and ethnically diverse? Has it been able to survive different kinds of crises? What exactly is Mimus’ argument? I have never found smug pretension and posturing from uninformed and clueless outsiders to be very convincing or compelling.john_a_designer_{November 19, 2018
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Bob (and weave), I automatically separated the rhetoric from the real issue. i.e. Far Leftists, like Darwinists, live in a fantasy world of illusion and imagination and in denial of the real world where borders are a very real necessity. ,,, Where are the moderate, sane, Democrats anymore that believed in borders???? Their party has been taken over by radical fringe elements who's ultimate goal is a 'borderless world'. They can't even honestly say that they are defending the working class anymore. Who would have thought that it would be the Republicans that would have to defend the rights of the working class? I miss FDR, Truman, JFK, even Bill Clinton.bornagain77_{November 19, 2018
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kf @ 39 - you haven't actually answered my question. But your comments suggest that you agree that it is possible to guard borders whilst trying to minimise these abuses. So why ask your question at 36? Is it really a good idea to use "Alinsky agit prop tactics"?Bob O'H_{November 19, 2018
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BA77
Ed George, you insinuated that Trump was not losing money as the President.
No. I said that we didn't know.Ed George_{November 19, 2018
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BO'H: the Alinsky agit prop tactics currently at work put up exactly that contrast. "Abolish ICE" they say, and there has been a rash of highlighting longstanding problems -- I have had relatives who fell afoul of immigration in the US and have had equipment ruined by bullying customs officers (ironically, obviously Cuban) -- as though they were of recent provenance. One of those, maybe a bit under a decade past, was in effect lost in detention, thus held effectively incommunicado until a lawyer met his cell mate and he was able to quietly ask for help; at minimum that shows gross negligence by supervisors. Kindly note my just above on where reforms should go: "Common sense indicates that borders be properly guarded and that traffic across them in materials and people needs to be soundly regulated — remember the 9/11 hijackers, who came in as flight school students? Plainly, reasonable defence of the civil peace of justice includes adequate but not oppressive or abusive border controls." KFkairosfocus_{November 19, 2018
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LT, your exchange caught my eye. What first strikes me is that it shows how prone to abuse governmental systems are when the vulnerable are at the mercy of bureaucrats. It should serve as a warning that too often, more government is NOT the answer to problems. Second, I infer that this is part of an ongoing debate over border controls. Common sense indicates that borders be properly guarded and that traffic across them in materials and people needs to be soundly regulated -- remember the 9/11 hijackers, who came in as flight school students? Plainly, reasonable defence of the civil peace of justice includes adequate but not oppressive or abusive border controls. Next, for cause I object to your insinuation that Christian values and identity are responsible for violations of the neighbourliness principle taught to the world at large by . . . Christians following Jesus and apostles who highlighted that the Mosaic law of righteousness as a whole hangs from love of God and love of neighbour created in his image. Therefore, he who loves neighbour as self will do no harm. Whether or not you reject the Christian faith, you are responsible to be truthful, reasonable and fair in discussing it. KFkairosfocus_{November 19, 2018
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ba77 @ 36 - your question only makes sense if the only choice is between no borders and borders guarded by people who will abuse their power by sexually assaulting detainees, without attempts to stop or minimise this behaviour. Do you think there is any middle ground, such as where most border guards treat detainees with respect, and those that do not are punished and if necessary) removed from the job?Bob O'H_{November 19, 2018
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So LarTanner, do you believe in a Utopian 'borderless' world? Might I suggest you remove the doors from your house so that you might practice what you preach? Let me know how that goes for you. :)bornagain77_{November 19, 2018
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Though I expect this post to be censored by UD's cowardly moderators, here's material relevant to post #32. America, home of the free and land of the brave. Greatest nation in the world. A Christian nation. A nation of immigrants. ICE Detention Center Says It's Not Responsible for Staff's Sexual Abuse of Detainees After ICE detained this migrant in Texas, her C-section scar ripped open and she was denied surgery for 4 months 6-Year-Old Girl Separated From Family Was Allegedly Sexually Abused at Immigration Detention CenterLarTanner_{November 19, 2018
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Ed George, you insinuated that Trump was not losing money as the President. I pointed out that I had referenced Forbes. You, instead of honestly admitting that politics has not made Trump richer, as you had originally insinuated, you, in spite of your very own lack of character to be honest with your false claim, hypocritically attacked Trump's character. That he is losing money while making America and fellow Americans richer tells me all I need to know about his character. FYI, I will not be voting for you in 2020! :)bornagain77_{November 19, 2018
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BA77
Since I referenced Forbes, I’ll take it that there are ways other than Tax Returns to fairly accurately assess a person’s net worth.
He won't release his tax returns, as presidents before him did, and he has a long history of stiffing contractors on what he owes them. The morality of how someone maintains their net worth is a measure of a person's character. And based on his record, there is not much character there.Ed George_{November 19, 2018
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To Seversky and others that are so eager to label President Trump and those who support him as Nazis and equivalent to Hitler, I offer the same scenario and offer below: Morning Joe Scarborough of MSNBC Suggests Trump’s Rhetoric Could Lead to ‘Genocide’ of Blacks and Hispanics OK “Morning Joe” you are much more connected than I am, have a somewhat large audience and are able to get the rich and powerful in front of the American TV audience on a daily basis. So here’s what I propose: You gather up your favorite journalist, historian, politico or whatever pundit you desire, and we’ll take a road trip, complete with camera crew. You, I and your experts will drive down to rail yards where we will witness and document Americans being locked into rail cars – elbow to elbow – with no water, food or toilet facilities. I’m easy and am willing to travel with you however long it takes to see such things, including along the Mexican border. We will follow that train to its final destination, and then park next to it so as to smell the stench from human excrement, urine and vomit after some number of long days of travel. At this final destination, you will show me and the cameras thousands of naked women shaved of all body hair and shivering in the cold or suffering in the heat. We will watch as evil American soldiers tear earrings off with pliers. We will then see evil American soldiers pinch the breasts of those women suspected of being pregnant. On finding such women, they are directed to the gas chambers and then to the furnaces to be burned where the smell of burning human flesh is pungent in the air. The other women, those seen as fit to work, are sent off to a short career of hard slave labor until death. Of course you will show me and the world of such happenings via your daily TV show sham. We all know the results of this trip don’t we? We will find no such happenings in in the United States of America. Following such a trip I am sure you will want to educate yourself on what real Nazis did in the 1930s and 1940s. I recommend the following books: The Nightingale by Kristin Hannah: Born Survivors by Wendy Holden Now, fully humbled and embarrassed that you would stoop so low as to accuse any Americans today of any such heinous acts, I would expect a very public retraction and apology to all Americans, especially President Trump and his supporters – followed by resignations. But should we find such atrocities on our trip, I will take your Trump = Nazi posters and go to the head of the line to get on one of those rail cars. Please people in the United States of America in 2018 – stop such demonization and hate. It can lead to nothing good, only evil of the worst kind. https://ayearningforpublius.wordpress.com/2018/08/15/morning-joe-suggests-trumps-rhetoric-could-lead-to-genocide-of-blacks-and-hispanics/ Don Johnson – August 2018ayearningforpublius_{November 19, 2018
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JAD @ 23 & 25 - I suspect Mimus doesn't live in the USA. So it's not obvious what your comment at 23 means. One might guess that any problems with US democracy are primarily the fault of American citizens.Bob O'H_{November 19, 2018
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Ed George, "Since he refuses to release his tax returns, how does anyone know?" Since I referenced Forbes, I'll take it that there are ways other than Tax Returns to fairly accurately assess a person's net worth. As to him loosing wealth whilst, amazingly, the unemployment rate drops and the economy booms:
The unemployment rate in the US declined to 3.7 percent in September of 2018 from 3.9 percent in each of the previous two months and below market expectations of 3.8 percent. It is the lowest jobless rate since December of 1969. https://tradingeconomics.com/articles/10052018123822.htm The Trump Boom Is Real — Just Ask The Global Economy https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/economic-boom-trump-global-economy/
Seversky claimed that Trump was a crook like the Clintons, that claim is patently false. Trump was already wealthy, and certainly did not need all the grief that the left wing heaps on him, and could have easily retired in comfort, instead of subjecting himself to the hatred of the left. Trump took the job of President because he, unlike the far left, genuinely loves America and hates how the left has been, basically, trying to destroy it from the inside out with socialistic ideology.bornagain77_{November 19, 2018
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Wow. It sound like she wants the USA to become like Finland. I hope you all know how to rake a forest.Bob O'H_{November 19, 2018
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Wow! How old are you Seversky? Your explanations regarding contemporary politics sound like radical Antifa materialEugen_{November 18, 2018
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I can assure you I have no idea who "people like me" have to do with the US government, political and electoral system.Mimus_{November 18, 2018
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