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[OFFTOPIC:] The Lesson of Tonight’s Iowa Caucuses

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My wife’s family is from Iowa, and we got to listen to a lot of the presidential candidates in person during our visit there this December. Here’s our daughter with two of the more successful candidates:

The lesson of tonight is that people are tired of business as usual. How far does that disaffection extend? To the uncritical teaching of Darwinian evolution?

71 Replies to “[OFFTOPIC:] The Lesson of Tonight’s Iowa Caucuses

  1. 1
    Gods iPod says:

    ?? Huckabee is not business as usual then?

    Sorry, he is a clone of Bush down to the fascist ideologies. There’s nothing remotely dissimilar between them

    Huckabee = Bush 2.0

  2. 2
    Frost122585 says:

    Gods Ipod-

    C’mon, give us a holly break on the fascism stuff- The guy liberated some 26 million people! from a sadistic despot who allowed his kids to feed their girl friends to lions- hardly a “fascistic” comparison to GWB. All the media has done (as usual) is focus on the negative side of Iraq- for example they talk about 5 dead troops in a country 15 times the size of Maryland.

    Dembski, interesting take – but I must say that I think faith played a bigger role in this one than the general public and media was anticipating. On the RNC side that is. It was Romney and Huckabee neck and neck and both men carry a degree of spiritual baggage.

    My take on the Iowa thing is pretty cynical. I don’t like how all of the state elections in the primaries are done in a stochastic fashion. I think it should all be on one day because now the media will use the results of a small state to essentially propagate and give free invaluable publicity to the winners- which to me is totally unfair when the first state is a liberal state that is not representative of the rest of the nation. It is a bit of a joke anyway look at the amount of notes we are talking about- Obama got 940 votes! 940! Iowa should be very inconsequential if not for the free press and hype of the media. But they got the buzz- they got “the win” in one of the smallest states in the world.

    On the results, I am not a Huckabee fan because when I listing to him speak he just seems to be dishonest. I cant say what it is exactly – something in the was he answers questions- not his overall speaking though when he actually speaks about a subject from a position of offense I find him ok but its when he is asked a tough question or is caught u in a political challenge that I can tell he is not an honest man. I am a christen but I wont vote for a man just because he shares a close resemblance to me political faction of christen faith. Mitt Romney however on the other hand is the total opposite- When he speaks I know it is rehearsed and he really doesn’t say much of anything (playing the politically safe card) but that is slightly better than the regular BS to me.- but in my heat I feel like the guy is the most decent of all of the candidates. I know that he is big money Massachusetts and all of that- but the guy just comes off to me as “a man” and someone who I feel is qualified to run a functioning white house with dignity and class. One of the things that helped to solidify my belief is that Romney switched from a social liberal to a social conservative and people have called him out as a flip-flopper on it but he stands against stem cell research and even in the face of his wife’s battle with MS. Now that either makes him an evil man (if you believe that virtually unregulated government funded stem cell research is a morally right thing to do) or it means that he stands pretty heavily on a very serious issue. I think he is being true. I think the guy looks presidential and overall I trust him more than any of the others up there. Even though Romney is a Mormon he is still a Christian and it isn’t his fault that he was born into a Mormon family. And I don’t find it useful to judge people based upon what they claim to be their faith- you should try and understand what they believe in their hearts. To me that is far more important than going to “the right church.” I also would like to ad that i beleive that the elitests have deep sixed Romeny as much as possible because they think he is the only one that can beat the demoracic nominee. After watching the last election (house and senate) the RNC needs a strong and rich candidate if they are to stand a chance inthe general election.

    As far as Obama- I really don’t agree with all of the random “hope” rhetoric and the unifying concepts of togetherness. If you are fundamentally wrong on an issue then I believe divide is necessary and a mark of character. As Americans we can compromise on strategy but not on principal. Obama is a socialist in the way that he wants to raise taxes and socialize medicine and I have seen what government run business is ultimately about so as a Reagan conservative I cant be exited about him. Nonetheless, I don’t hold it against people for being excited about his candidacy- to me no one is bad for voting the other way just I believe their fundamentally wrong on important issues.

    As this all applies to DE and ID to me in a introspective sense. The analogy that comes to my mind is that by popularity and politics. People jump on bandwagons- I remind you that is was Rudy Giuliani (whom I don’t really like) that was the front runner just a month ago. DE is very much a political movement and one that “can” be swayed- but it is the media and mainstream opinion that keeps chanting “ID IS NOT SCINECE” setting the sides and the tone- making everything a strategic and structural battle and giving free publicity to the anti- ID campaign insted of letting the evidence and truth speak for itself. Perhaps we should break away from what the crowed is saying and forget about preliminary results- instead of the old adage that “there is truth in numbers” we should set the options down side by side and weigh the truth ourselves. Forget about a corporate and internationally owned media or meaningless debates about nothing- look at the options and evidence and let is speak for itself. ID is ultimately not interested in popularity or perceptions- but in Truth.

  3. 3
    jerry says:

    Gods Ipod,

    Fascists are liberals with socialist policies. Both Mussolini who originated the concept and Hitler were socialists. While George Bush has tended to increase the size of the government his policies are not of government control of production as much as Clinton and Obamba would be. So Hillary is more of a fascist then Bush and I would guess that Obamba is not far behind.

  4. 4
    Tedsenough says:

    Dr. Dembski,
    Your daughter is adorable!

    My wife and I are hopefully going to have a child soon too.

  5. 5
    SCheesman says:

    Dr. Dembski: Politics aside, these are very sweet pictures of your daughter. I’m sure she (and you) will cherish them for many years. It is really special to have been able to meet and be photographed with two distinguished politicians. Kudos for getting her interested in such things at such a young age! May she not become jaded over time.

  6. 6
    Peter says:

    God’s ipod,

    If you can’t say anything challenging then why bother? You diminish yourself and bore your readers.

    Frost122585

    Try to be more to the point. This is a blog, not a journal. If you can’t state you’re points in a couple of small paragraphs I doubt that anyone will read your blog entries.

    To the point,

    This is a good day for ID. Huckabee has publically stated that he does not believe in evolution. In fact, he has said that the US Congress is proof of devolution because the senators act more like moneys. This can only bode well for support of ID. How this supports materializes may be difficult to predict, but at least Huckabee has the smarts, and guts to stand for the truth.

  7. 7
    tdean says:

    Very nice pictures.

    I think Huckabee is business as usual in at least one critical matter – he, like the current incumbent, has no respect for the importance of maintaining state and church separation. This is a defining American principle, and abandoning it will only hurt all, religious or non-religious. I think it is a sad day that we have to even ask questions about a candidate’s faith. This is exactly what the founding fathers did not want to happen.

  8. 8
    Nochange says:

    Frost,

    While counting the number of Iraqis freed, we must also count the number of Iraqi civilians killed. Are 1 million civilian casualties worth 26 million free? How many civilian deaths does it take to make it not worth it any more?

    What goes on in other countries should be none of our business. Iraq has demonstrated that you can’t fix a broken country (we went in and took a bad situation for Iraqi’s, and replaced it with a bad situation for Iraqi’s – I don’t call that a win).

    That said, Huckabee is no Bush. Huckabee is one of us. Bush just pretends to be one of us.

  9. 9
    dacook says:

    Very cute girl. She looks like a kid who would be fun to be around.

    If Huckabee hadn’t played the religion card so hard and sabotaged Romney with it he’d be easier for me to like. As it is I think he’s sneaky and underhanded.
    I used to like McCain until I found out he wants to raise my taxes.
    Romney’s position changes make me a little uneasy, but at least he changed the right way. I would love to see him and Hillary or Obama debate directly. I think he could handle either easily.

    Anyone see the plug on MSNBC last night during the Iowa returns on the new NAS book defending science education in the schools against creationism and ID? There was a sound bite from a bewhiskered member of the NAS whose name I didn’t catch saying that ID was scientifically indefensible. (I told the TV he was wrong but no-one but my wife heard me)
    Since they increasingly can’t defend Darwinism on its merits they more and more must work to silence its detractors.

  10. 10
    jerry says:

    Nochange,

    you said

    “Huckabee is one of us”

    Who are the “us?” If that is true then ID has no future. Huckabee is not one of mine so speak for yourself. Besides don’t you believe in evolution? ID is all about bringing good science to evolution not disclaiming it.

    Also on the politics of war, I think you should just leave it alone. Your numbers are not correct and both Germany and Japan were broken countries after World War II and so was South Korea in 1953.

  11. 11
    tribune7 says:

    I think Huck can give the Slickster himself lessons in Slickness.

    That’s not a good thing.

    Hey, Gods iPod, when do you think Dubya’s finally going to get around to opening up those camps for the people who questioned the results of Florida in 00? He only got a year left.

    The closest thing to a “fascist” in this race is the only one that can get away with wearing a dress.

    And I don’t mean Rudy since he didn’t get away with it.

  12. 12
    tribune7 says:

    Dr. D, you have a beautiful little girl.

    Just curious but did either candidate know who you were?

  13. 13
    tribune7 says:

    Are 1 million civilian casualties worth 26 million free?

    Hussein certainly thought 1 million-plus civilian deaths were worth keeping 26 million enslaved, so yes.

    And where are you getting your 1 million figure? Michael Moore?

    Iraq body count gives a high of 87,00 civilian deaths due to violence since Hussein’s overthrow.

  14. 14
    BarryA says:

    Nochange. One million Iraqi dead? Where did you get that number? How many of them were killed by Americans and not their co-religionists?

    Dr. Dembski, I’m not sure whether I have an obligation to report you to child protection services for letting your child get so close to politicians. Reckless, very reckless. 😉

  15. 15
    tribune7 says:

    Correction: It looks like Saddam’s kill tally included Iranian and Iraqi soldiers. The high estimate for civilian dead in his reign is 300,000.

  16. 16
    Gods iPod says:

    Some of you need to look up DICTIONARY not POPULAR definitions for fascism and study a little on Hitler’s rise to power, where he was a few years out and were America is today.

    Huckabee is indeed the most fascist type we have running for office. A little research goes a long way. Maybe its because I’m not American that I can see what you can’t. No offense.

    Here’s a start for you: http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

    And then continue with raw google search: http://www.google.com/search?r.....in+america

    As for an Iraq body count, again, look outside of American media for answers please. http://news.independent.co.uk/.....396031.ece

  17. 17
    mike1962 says:

    Fross122585: “Even though Romney is a Mormon he is still a Christian and it isn’t his fault that he was born into a Mormon family. And I don’t find it useful to judge people based upon what they claim to be their faith- you should try and understand what they believe in their hearts. To me that is far more important than going to “the right church.””

    Well, the midwest is going have a hard time accepting him. Something about swearing allegience to the Mormon church in those temple ceremonies, etc. JFK was grilled about how his loyalty to Catholicism would affect his presidency. Romney has a higher hurdle here, given what the Mormon ceremonies actually requires. You better believe the So Baptists will be harping on this loudly at the right time. However, I predict Romney will play well out west where being a Mormon is virtually irrelevant (given there are so many of them in Calif, etc.)

    /pundit mode

  18. 18
    Frost122585 says:

    Nochange,

    i agree with you that my blog entry was a lil long- thanks for pointing that out-

    Look, Iraq is now for the first time EVER holding democratic elections. That means something to me and the 7 million people that went out and casted their votes in face of terrorism, violence and belligerency. Yes, it has been a difficult mess, but so was WW2 and this time maybe we helped to prevent a world war instead of sitting back and waiting for one to happen before taking action.

    Huckabee is not one of us I assure you all. He is a Arkansas politician in the mold of Bill Clinton. HE trashed Romney’s faith comparing Mormonism loosely to satanic worship! Hardly representative of my character. lol, I mean the guy is pulling no punches. I don’t trust they guy as far as I can throw him even when he was fat.

    As far as Obama everyone on tv is saying this was a political earth quake for him because (you guessed it) hes black. People still think we are living in the segregated south. Everyone was predicting this possibility all the polls showed it was a good chance. And look who Obama was running against – the slick trail lawyer who always has a snicker on his face like he cant bare holding in his amusement that people are buying his bs and the evil soviet style school teacher who cant run a marriage much less a country.

    W-o-w, Obama got 900 votes.

    This country is heading towards a recession real fast and it cannot afford another big spending leftist.

  19. 19
    mike1962 says:

    Fross122585:

    And let’s not forget that the early Mormon leaders predicted that the US constitution would “hang by a thread” and that the Mormon church would somehow come gallopping in to save the day. And that the “Kingdom of God” was ordained in Nauvoo IL around 1842 by Joseph Smith, where he was “crowned king.” Evangelicals who know about this stuff are going to wonder what’s *really* in Romney’s head about all that.

    /pundit off

  20. 20
    rswood says:

    Time and again I find that Huckabee constantly talking about religion is due primarily to always being asked about it. Watch him being interviewed and ask yourself each time who brings it up. Sometimes his faith is a legitimate issue, usually it’s thrown in hoping for a crazy soundbite.

    For instance, even though he’s spent a decade as a governor, he’s constantly described as an “ex-minister” even in the by-lines under his name during debates, often completely ignoring his impressive political accomplishments. Hardly fair.

  21. 21
    tribune7 says:

    As for an Iraq body count, again, look outside of American media for answers please.

    American media? You think they are pro-war? The link I provided was to an Anglo-American organization, which is also not pro-war. It meshes with the UN and Iraqi government estimates.

    Further, the Johns Hopkins (an American University) study reported in Lancet, is rejected by the U.K. as well. And it does not indicate a million death.

    Huckabee is indeed the most fascist type we have running for office.

    We? I thought you said you weren’t an American. The Huckster may be a shyster but he’s not fascist.

    Maybe its because I’m not American that I can see what you can’t.

    Maybe its because you are not American that you don’t understand what is going on over here. Don’t trust your country’s media.

  22. 22
    tribune7 says:

    Some of you need to look up DICTIONARY not POPULAR definitions for fascism

    The dictionary definiton of fascism:

    1often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

    2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

    study a little on Hitler’s rise to power, where he was a few years out

    As I look out my window right now, I see the Huckster’s brown-shirts smashing the windows of a helpless Mormon shopkeeper

  23. 23
    Frost122585 says:

    Mike c’mon man this is the irrelevance im talking about. I really think its moot to talk about the radical side of Mormonism in 1810 when we know that Romney didn’t gain all of his success acting like a nut and only dealing with Mormons in a dark smoky room- I find his history easier to take than Bushes with his skull and bones and Yale/Harvard elitism. I don’t believe in conspiracy theories yet the analogy of groups here is think is relevant.

    Speaking as an R – I believe that we need to get over this Mormon faith thing real quick and vote as Americans if we are gonna prevent another big spending leftist form getting in office- this time equipped with a house and senate of Ds especially wit this wavy economy. Romney btw balanced Mass budget. I think that only Romney has the money and power to beat the Dems- Huckabee is to me a media creation- they say he is a breath of fresh air-

    Speaks to the smog the media is constantly breathing.

  24. 24
    Frost122585 says:

    mike,

    And let’s not forget that the early Mormon leaders predicted that the US constitution would “hang by a thread” and that the Mormon church would somehow come gallopping in to save the day.

    Well this contry at times feels like tis hanging from a thread and the way the spending is right now id be ok with Romney gallopping in and saving it from economic chaos. Romney has ballanced a state budget-in one of the biggest spending states in the nation while Hucksterbee on the other hand only knows how to spend the big bucks.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316496,00.html

  25. 25
    jerry says:

    Gods Ipod,

    If I said I have a more insightful view of the UK than you, you should rightfully laugh. You access some polemic site and now you know everything. We are too stupid here to know when we are being led down the garden path.

    Fascists are socialists and there is an emphasis on nationalism within this socialist message. There has only been a few fascist regimes since Mussolini coined the term in the 1920’s but the term is ubiquitous. The US system is fairly far away from socialism or anything that Mussolini dreamed of, though not as far from socialism as many of us would want. George Bush has not proposed much of what could be called socialist so I fail to see what you are driving at. How can a non socialist be a fascist?

    He certainly does not control the media. That would be a joke. He is running the country during a time of war. So what is he actually doing to deserve the designation a fascist except for your dislike. But of course you know better than those of actually living here.

    Also the journal Lancet has been caught in fraud on the body count in Iraq and I believe that is a British journal. Another anti war Britain site pegs the deaths as somewhere around 85,000, Iraq has pegged it around 50,000.

    You are just caught up in the anybody I don’t like is a fascist mode. Save the term for more realistic situations and give it up with US politics. If anyone can be accused of supporting mass indoctrination here in the US it is the left and that is where fascists sit politically. You should read about the indoctrination that goes on in US universities and these are not friendly to Bush. They are very leftist.

  26. 26
    mike1962 says:

    Frost122585,

    Mind you, those are not my feelings. This is what I think others are thinking, not myself. Personally, I don’t think Romney is much of a threat because of his Mormon associations, given his track record.

  27. 27
    PaV says:

    Is that guy to the right of Huckabee taking a picture of you, Bill? 🙂

    Quite a lovely girl! And she seems happy. That’s a compliment to you and your wife. Keep up the good work!

  28. 28
    StuartHarris says:

    Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary has a newer revised definition of fascist:

    fascist \’fash-est\ n or adj, often cap 1: a pejorative term used by a political leftist to describe a political conservative who is in the process of winning an argument 2: a pejorative term used by a political leftist to stop an argument that they are losing 3: a term used repeatedly and spasmodically by political leftists for no apparent reason – often correlated with Tourette Syndrome. synonyms: racist, homophobe, creationist

  29. 29
    Semiotic 007 says:

    Lovely daughter, Bill. I’ll pose the question you can answer only one way if your wife reads the blog: Who’s she get her looks from?

  30. 30
    Alann says:

    I think Huckabee would be more likely to support Intelligent Design then Obama; however I think he would do so for all the wrong reasons. I definitely think Obama is a better choice.

    It seems to me you can view the role of government based on two aspects: responsibility and authority.

    A traditional Republican (economic conservative) goes for small responsibility and small authority.

    A traditional Democrat (liberals) goes for big resposnisiblity and big authority.

    In my mind the best combination is one which takes the most responsibility while exercising the least authority. So Democrat vs Republican of the past was which side is more important taking responsibility or reducing authority, and to what degree.

    This brings us to the new form of Republicans (social conservatives). It seems to me (and if you use Bush as an example they are) that this group wants the worst form of government, on which maximizes authority while avoiding any responsibility.

    Personally I don’t care if your for or against the Iraq war, in either case it was badly mishandled and poorly planned. Its a difficult issue as to what cost in money and lives we are willing to pay for another nations liberty; however its not difficult to see that what we are mostly paying for is incompetence.

    Bush is a bit of a fascist, he acts as though the executive branch is not subject to the law. Authorizing warrant-less wiretaps is not a minor issue, its a direct violation of one of the constitutional checks on executive authority. Also, just as a rose by any other name would smell as sweet; torture no matter what you call it (or call the people you subject to it) is still against the Geneva convention, illegal, unconstitutional, and in a basic moral sense a crime against humanity. It makes me sick to see that all but one of the Republican candidates (John McCain) refuses to condemn this behavior.

  31. 31
    rockyr says:

    Tribune, I argree that calling somebody like Huckabee a fascist, without a proper explanation of what was meant by the choice of such a tainted and offensive word, as we underdstand it today, is offensive and preposterous. On the other hand, the meaning of “fascism” is quite complex, and a simple reference by a dictionary will not do justice to the word. Strictly speaking, according to the arguably most prestigious Oxford Dictionary,

    “Fascism: The principles and organization of Fascists. Also, loosely, any form of right-wing authoritarianism.”

    one could use the word to mean “any form of right-wing authoritarianism”.

    Also according to the DRAFT ADDITIONS MARCH 2006, Fascism means: depreciative (chiefly Brit.). In extended use (usu. with preceding modifying word): the advocacy of a particular viewpoint or practice in a manner perceived as intolerant or authoritarian. — again, not a nice comparison.

    Ipod’s reference to the 14 points of fascism is a rather convoluted nonsense, where half of the criteria don’t really apply to the USA, but I would like to point out that the key defining feature of the original Italian fascism was its anti-communist character and purpose. This is reflected even in to the Oxford Dictionary under the word “fascist”:

    “One of a body of Italian nationalists, which was organized in 1919 to oppose communism in Italy, and, as the partito nazionale fascista, under the leadership of Benito Mussolini (1883-1945), controlled that country from 1922 to 1943; also transf. applied to the members of similar organizations in other countries. Also, a person having Fascist sympathies or convictions; (loosely) a person of right-wing authoritarian views.”

    It was its anti-communism that made fascism popular all-over Europe, gaining approval of many intellectuals. Fascism only later showed its ugly head, or heads, and, unfortunately, as it usually happens in history, many well-meaning anti-communists, and otherwise decent people, were drawn with the movement until it was too late.
    And, on an on-topic note, Hitler’s fascism or nazism, quite different from the original Italian fascism, was an evolution based ideology which drew heavily on Darwinism and eugenics.

  32. 32
    jjcassidy says:

    God’s Ipod,

    I’ve read plenty on Hitler’s rise. Hitler was a total national socialist. He wanted government control of the industries and equal division of fruits to member of the Aryan race.

    America is little like Nazi Germany, despite how many times Marxists have made that there line of attack.

  33. 33
    idnet.com.au says:

    Obama will win. He has the charisma. ID will win because of the evidence. Change is inevitable.

  34. 34
    Atom says:

    idnet.com.au wrote:

    Obama will win. He has the charisma. ID will win because of the evidence. Change is inevitable.

    Let’s hope change comes sooner than later. 🙂

  35. 35
    toc says:

    A guess:

    The coasts will determine who goes to battle in 2008. Money always wins nominations; when the funds run out campaign people, who consider themselves loyal idealists, flee like rodents on a sinking ship. Money -vs- meaning.

    Iowa tests middle America, but Hillary will be facing Guliani after the ’08 conventions, when the coastal financiers have their say.

    Guliani will win all the debates. Superior intellectual clarification and arguement will not win the election. Ohio, Missouri, Florida et al, as usual, will determine the outcome. It’s then a toss-up. How did GWB win in ’04? It was fear. The one who connects to the fear of the average man and woman wins the election.

    – it’s the money stupid
    – I feel your pain…

    The real players aren’t determined in the heartland, but by the monied players on the coasts who have the greatest stakes in the game. Our next President will prevail because he or she will capitalize on the nation’s fears.

    And so goes the Darwinian v ID debate. Those who could stand will not stand because stakes are too high. Most fear rejection and poverty. As Paul Tournier wrote in THE MEANING OF PERSONS (as I recall), “We are all so desperately afraid.”

  36. 36
    Michaels7 says:

    OT… Atom,

    During the holidays while looking up some old YES music(Time and a Word) and Rick Wakeman on youtube, I eventually made my way to singer Anderson’s site. I immediately thought about your work.

    http://www.jonanderson.com/news.html
    Anderson is looking for Rap Producers for a project he’s working on. You do “produce” much of your own work, yes? It may be outside your scope or interest. And
    Jon Anderson’s original work outside of YES can be somewhat spacey, new age, but he is always surrounding himself by great talent(Steve Howe, Rick Wakeman, Squire, etc).

    It may not be your “cup of tea” but thought I’d give you the heads up if you’re interested. Artist routinely mix different styles. You never know what may happen as paths cross.

  37. 37
    jerry says:

    “Fascism: The principles and organization of Fascists. Also, loosely, any form of right-wing authoritarianism.”

    I am sorry this is wrong. Fascism as practiced by Mussolini and Hitler were left wing socialist governments and thus examples of left-wing authoritarianism. Yes they were anti communist but so what. Lenin murdered tens of thousands of socialists at the beginning of the revolution. He wasn’t choosy. Communists and Fascists were two leftist ideologies competing with each other.

    Were there any other fascist governments? Probably not but many include Franco in Spain because he was at the same time and was also anti communist but not of the same flavor as Hitler and Mussolini. People have a tendency to apply the term to anything they don’t like but if you are going to use the term then use it as it was practiced in Italy and Germany, left-wing authoritarianism.

    There were no governments ever more authoritarian and oppressive than the communist governments but yet the term does not apply there. Why? It should if one want to use the authoritarian nature as an example for fascist. But it doesn’t because the left like to use the term as they want to manipulate your thinking and most never question just what it actually means.

    Do we understand what right wing means? If you think it refers to conservatives then you are being manipulated just as the general public is being manipulated by the word evolution.

  38. 38
    tribune7 says:

    Also, loosely, any form of right-wing authoritarianism.”

    rockyr, the closest thing to an advocate of authoritarianism in this race is Mrs. Clinton.

    Which brings us to an interesting point w/regard to the origin of the adjective here, “right wing”, namely that it is rooted in the seating arrangement of the French Estates-General in 1789 in which the nobility sat to the right of the president.

    The nobility, of course, believed that power was their due through marriage and heredity.

    That also applies to Mrs. Clinton and not a bit to the Huck. 🙂

  39. 39
    toc says:

    Annotation:
    Just viewed The McLaughlin Report on PBS. The final question raised by McLaughlin, “Will the new atheism gain notoriety in the future”? Pundits said yes — all of them. McLaughlin said “NO. The reason is from the Intelligent Design movement.”

    Congratulations, Dr. Dembski. Ms. O’Leary, ( et al ) for your pursuit of evidence.

  40. 40
    tribune7 says:

    Guliani will win all the debates.

    There have been several debates already and he has yet to win one.

  41. 41
    Frost122585 says:

    tdean,

    I totally agree, I want a president that can run the country- or i should say keep it in tact for 8 years. If he is a believer in ID that is a big plus but not a necessity. I want to reiterate my point though- this country is in really weak fiscal shape because of massive spending (in the war on top of the usual) and the exportation of our labor and industry-

    If we loose our industry base say goodbye to the dollar and the country because the dollar is merely a medium that represents the product of our labor and services- if loose them its over real quick.

    Don’t believe that we cannot fall into a depression today- Economics is he dark science- people have never understood it and never will because their is too much manipulation and too many unknowns. We are teetering on the edge of critical imbalance and we have on the Dem side two leftists that are promising the world everything when we are bankrupt. This country needs fiscal responsibility quick. All this stuff about Bush and fascism is just a distraction from the tsunami that is brewing just up ahead. I’m not being draconian here either- its happened before in a much smaller and more manageable world – now we are in the age of “Globalism” and the US has been throwing the party for 10 + years thanks to NAFTA and the like- our treat.

    To be weakly witty I remind all of you IDers that there is NO FREE LUNCH. Especially on the backs of slave labor courtesy of communist countries.

    Huckabee has nothing to do with ID and he cant raise enough money to win the general election against the international Democrat party and its unlimited illeagal campaign contributions.

  42. 42
    Frost122585 says:

    Oh and for the record Obama has no chance of winning he is amedia creation fro all of you true beleivers that are being easily manipulated- just wait he will be riding high then the media will deep six him- just wait and see how right i am- and then they will be tlaking about how he isn’t resonating his message well and then
    – oh my Hillary is mounting the come back just like her husband ” The Come Back Kid Hillary Clinton”

    Wait and see how fast Huckabee disapears too after they try to use him to knock off Romney (becasue they are the two running as religiously socially conservative) the nthey will pump up Mccain who cannot win for every known reason and you wil have Hillary vs Mccain and HIllary will win-

    This is how the media and the bif money works – picking its match ups.

    The media created Obama/ Huckabee out of nothing and they will knock it down just as easily.

    Id looses if Obaa getsi n cause he is definetly anti- ID he is the antithesis of that kind of an anti power movement – Obama is typical washington big government regular politician- just listen to him promise everything in the world-

    I think once again that Romney would be the best cadidate for ID because i dont think he would care very much either way while the others would not care for ID.

  43. 43
    Atom says:

    Michaels7,

    Thanks for the heads up. I do produce 99% of my own stuff, so I’ll check the link out.

    (And for those who have no idea what Michaels7 is talking about, you can find my site through my name link and some more intelligently designed Hip-Hop here

  44. 44
    Bob O'H says:

    Iraq body count gives a high of 87,00 civilian deaths due to violence since Hussein’s overthrow.

    That’s well known to be an underestimate, as they admit:

    We have always been quite explicit that our own total is certain to be an underestimate of the true position, because of gaps in reporting or recording.

    There have been surveys carried out (there’s a nice discussion about the statistical issues here, if you have access). The important survey was reported here in The Lancet (you may need to register, but it’s free to view). From data collected in May and July 2006, they estimated 654?965 excess deaths (95% confidence interval: 392?979–942?636). So, the 1 million is probably too high, but may not be too far from the truth.

    tribune7 – if you had read the article in the Indy, you would have seen that they stated that internally the numbers had been accepted. It’s worth pointing out that the Roy Anderson, the Chief Scientific Advisor to the MoD is himself an epidemiologist, so he has expertise in this area.

    Oh, and this was actually reported in the US press – the Significance article gives some choice quotes, of varying quality.

    Hmmm. Just to drift back on topic, I’ll add my voice to those saying what a fun kid you have there! Isn’t the real lesson that it’s always good to smile?

    Bob

  45. 45
    kairosfocus says:

    Dr Dembski:

    How is the lovely young Ms Dembski doing on Math, Science and Phil? [Based on genes and nurturing environment, most likely excellently, I’d say!)

    (In short, the real issues IMHCO are going to be multi-generational . . . so let’s raise the next generation of serious, independently minded thinkers . . . Then, maybe some day it is Messrs Huckabee and Obama [or their descendants!] who will treasure the day when they posed for a snapshot with the justly famous Ms Dembski! ;-> ) )

    GEM of TKI

  46. 46
    xcdesignproponentsists says:

    tdean:

    Maybe Huckabee is good for ID, I don’t know. But I think the real point is that we ought not to be voting for a President based on their religious beliefs, or whether they think evolution is true or not. These are the wrong reasons. What we need is a President who can restore America’s place and prestige in the world, deal properly with foreign policy issues, and find solutions for domestic issues. Many have already voted for a President because they thought he was “God’s choice”, and look where that has got us.

    Well said, tdean. In my opinion, there are far more important issues at stake than the creation-evolution debate. I hope that Americans will vote for their next president based on those issues, as opposed to something that the president does not have a direct say in.

  47. 47
    rswood says:

    The media has not been a friend to Huckabee, so they certainly can’t be pumping him up. Most conservative media, even Fox, has been snubbing him for some time, and the rest considered him unelectable even in Iowa until just recently. Everyone is genuinely surprised about his rise, but it certainly wasn’t the media that got him there.

  48. 48
    jerry says:

    Bob O’H,

    There is evidence that the Lancet study may be a fraud. They refuse to release the data on which the study is based. Here is a recent investigation into the study

    http://news.nationaljournal.co...../index.htm

  49. 49
    tdean says:

    Peter wrote: “This is a good day for ID. Huckabee has publically stated that he does not believe in evolution. In fact, he has said that the US Congress is proof of devolution because the senators act more like moneys. This can only bode well for support of ID.

    Maybe Huckabee is good for ID, I don’t know. But I think the real point is that we ought not to be voting for a President based on their religious beliefs, or whether they think evolution is true or not. These are the wrong reasons. What we need is a President who can restore America’s place and prestige in the world, deal properly with foreign policy issues, and find solutions for domestic issues. Many have already voted for a President because they thought he was “God’s choice”, and look where that has got us.

  50. 50
    Bob O'H says:

    jerry – Actually, there isn’t any evidence. There’s lack of evidence that it isn’t fraudulent, though.

    For me, that’s not a terribly convincing article. The graphic reveals a clear bias (OK, I’m biased too – how dare they criticise statisticians!). At least one of the points is effectively rebutted in the article in Significance that I linked to, and I would want to see a proper analysis of the data to see if the patterns are really non-random.

    Any study can be chipped away at with doubts and imperfections, but it’s not clear if it actually makes a difference. In this case, I’m sure the estimates are biased in various ways, but it’s not obvious that there’s a huge bias in one direction.

    Perhaps the most important point is that studies like this should be replicated, and financed and organised better.

    Bob

  51. 51
    jerry says:

    Bob O’H,

    And the data made available and subject to check. After all these people are still supposed to be dead and that is relatively easily checked.

  52. 52
    PaV says:

    jerry:

    Years ago, I tried looking into Mussolini. I couldn’t find much. But what I did find out is that as a youth/young man, he was a communist: as in, Marxist Communist. I wonder how many people are aware of that.

  53. 53
    tribune7 says:

    Bob O’H- if you had read the article in the Indy, you would have seen that they stated that internally the numbers had been accepted.

    No, it doesn’t say that. It says some say that Johns Hopkins study used “sound methods”. It doesn’t say that they secretly think their conclusions are right, or that the they think the methodology of those with a different view is flawed.

    The article quotes Roy Anderson as describing the methods used in the study as “robust” and “close to best practice”. It doesn’t quote him as saying the MoD and the British government is wrong. You would think an article in a very left-leaning paper would have been able to find some mid-level person to quote saying the war allies were involved in some massive cover up.

    600,000 dead over three and a half years would mean a lot of bodies. It should mean clashes involving tens of thousands of casualties. That hasn’t been happening. In fact, if five or 10 die in some action over there it’s considered big news.

  54. 54
    jerry says:

    PaV,

    I am aware of Mussolini’s communist background. He dropped it to form his own movement but it still was a socialist movement. Both Hitler and Mussolini were socialists to the end so it is ludicrous to say that fascist were right wing.

    The ideas that fascist are of the right was a way to manipulate public opinion by the communists and modern socialists and liberals. So it is a joke when they apply the designation to people like Bush. It is as Stuart Harris said in #29, anybody conservative you don’t like or those who you are losing an argument with.

  55. 55
    Rude says:

    NoChange in 8 above,

    Live free or die! and on to New Hampshire!

  56. 56
    CN says:

    Fross122585: “Even though Romney is a Mormon he is still a Christian and it isn’t his fault that he was born into a Mormon family.

    Oh, come on. Even my young kids know this is bad theology.

  57. 57
    Bob O'H says:

    You would think an article in a very left-leaning paper would have been able to find some mid-level person to quote saying the war allies were involved in some massive cover up.

    Why? That would mean totally fabricating a story. There isn’t a cover-up in this case, simply because the government and coalition forces haven’t been collecting any figures to cover up.

    600,000 dead over three and a half years would mean a lot of bodies. It should mean clashes involving tens of thousands of casualties. That hasn’t been happening. In fact, if five or 10 die in some action over there it’s considered big news.

    OK, divide by 10, and use a number of 60 000 dead (i.e. less than the Iraq study group). Wouldn’t that imply clashes involving thousands of casualties? So, where have they been reported?

    Bob

  58. 58
    CN says:

    #21 Maybe its because you are not American that you don’t understand what is going on over here. Don’t trust your country’s media.

    I agree — from my observations, the US media are FAR less biased then the media in New Zealand. They could almost be talking about a different war. The media here, and most politicians on the left, seem to have a hatred for the USA.

    Also, it’s not like the USA can be blamed for all the Islamic-hate-killings of their own people. If they stopped the killing, the US would surely leave tomorrow.

  59. 59
    Michaels7 says:

    Jerry, good article posted. I was going to link it earlier. Glad to see someone has commmon sense.

    To others… Bob, GodsIpod,

    The Lancet Study is if not outright fraud, then politically motivated hack job, funded by self-proclaimed Messiah George Soros. Specifically to undercut America, any allies and George Bush. He hated George Bush decision to enter Iraq. And after 2004 he exploded as 60Million Americans voted Bush back into power for victory in Iraq. He has vowed to “Change Regime in America.”

    He does this thru multiple “non-profit” groups. He throws his millions to the far left in America. So much far left that it makes Hillary look right of center. He funded the alarmist fake survey indicating that America is evil, Bush is evil. Iraqis are dying. The uninformed, or willfully misleading on queue cry out.

    This is the only report funded by a far left radical to reach these numbers. All other surveys, including the Iraqi government reports, do not come anywhere close to the fake numbers by Lancet. At worst, up to 100,000 ending in 2006. With current records, around 115,000 “civilian” deaths since 2003.

    But, none of these “civilian” deaths are investigated, delineated and reported as insurgents, terrorist, foreign suicide bombers, or even Hezbollah foreign infiltrators. They are fighiting in civilian clothes. They do not wear military uniforms! The Lancet study makes no correction for these facts. None.

    Who is George Soros? Why is he funding such faulty studies? A quick read of Soros facts helps…
    http://ibdeditorials.com/series4.aspx

    I recommend reading all the articles. This man has a Messiah complex, thinking he is set apart.

    Besides being convicted in France’s Highest Court for Insider Trading, he also managed to disrupt and mangle financial markets all over the world, many times leading to total disarray in new struggling economies of Eastern Europe and Russia.

    This is the man who wants to change American Regime, but leave Iraqi Saddam Hussein, murderous thug, genocidal maniac alone. Why? He has ulterior motives. One less tyrant, one less lubed hand to bribe. This is the way he and his hedge fund cronies worked thru the East. Corruption favors his profiteering.

    He should be kicked out of America. I can only imagine what George Washington would have done to this man during a time of war.

    Soros funds the more outrageously disturbing MoveOn.org thru his “Open Society.” Who attacked a sitting General Petraeus during a time of war. They put Ads at an illegal discount rate in the NYT calling Petraeus, “General Betray Us” the day he appeared in front of Congress. Where the Senate recently approved Petraeus by 98-0 for the new job. An outstanding professional man, with a PhD from Princeton and the grit, determination and smarts to win the war in Iraq. He is doing so dispite the shrill attack ads like those funded by Soros and MoveOn.

    A European funding American public manipulation by “non-profit” orgs. Most people are ignorant of this process. Anti-American, Anti-Bush, anti-Iraq Liberation.

    The Iraqis however know who their friends are. They recently signed a long term agreement with President Bush for American bases to support stabalization long term. This is the same strategy of Germany, Italy, Europe and Japan. We are winning and the Iraqis want us to stay because they know we are their friends, not enemy.

    It took 5 years to get Germany moving in the right direction in WWII. We are only now at that timeline in a much different cultural nation. Our military has done fantastic work in short time.

    Iraqis deserve liberty, not Soros funded Stalinista propaganda which his “Open Society” refuses to let go of data for critics and experts to review. Why do they refuse? Because, like the global warming alarmist Hansen at NASA, which Soros funded, they know the data collecting will be found flawed and the methodologies and corrections found wanting. The only reason we found out is because NASA, unlike Soros “Open Society” believed in transparency and opened their data to all for review.

    His org should be called Closed Society, or Billionaires Behind Closed Doors Society. OR, You will Bow Down to Elite Europeans Society.

  60. 60
    Michaels7 says:

    Who is Geogre Soros? He funded Lancet Study by “Open” Society. A group that refuses to open their books for review.

    Well, he has had a Messiah complex since childhood, one that made him uncomfortable early on, but one which he has now grown into as a billionaire, so he says…

    It is the hottest day of the year, apocalyptic chords are crashing around an empty church(restuarant) and George Soros is describing his messiah complex. The man who made $1bn in a day by betting against the Bank of England always thought he was set apart. As a child, Soros had what he calls “messianic fantasies”.

    Uhuh and now those fantasies rear their ugly head in his demented thought process – Regime Change in America.

    This Hungarian liberated by America now says He knows best for America, for you, for me. And he will spend his fortune of billions made in attrocious deals upon backs of poor countries to make sure you and me accept his divine light against our will. The Hedge fund god speaketh.

    He also funded Hanen’s lawyers against NASA. The data Hansen used to alarm the entire world has now been found faulty, due to some year 2000 glitch. After NASA opened up the data for review, the errors were found. Unfortunately, the liberal news media never reported these facts, only the alarmist global warming statements funded by Soros. None of Soros’ non-profit orgs have made this news available to the public.

    Fortunately some people have…
    http://www.climateaudit.org/?cat=54

    So, what we see is Soros funded individuals and groups participating in faulty data in more than one instance. A “pattern” is developing. Hmmm, maybe we can apply ID? 😉

  61. 61
    tribune7 says:

    Why? That would mean totally fabricating a story.

    It’s been done before, and with effectiveness. The New York Times has yet to surrender Walter Duranty’s Pulitzer. And it may not be an out-and-out fabrication. It could just be a flawed study that is being defended and promoted for political reasons.

    Of course, the same could be said for the other side, but that would be a government cover up, and, say what you want, the allies have taken great pains to avoid being put in a position as to where they could be accused of this.

    OK, divide by 10, and use a number of 60 000 dead (i.e. less than the Iraq study group). Wouldn’t that imply clashes involving thousands of casualties? So, where have they been reported?

    Oh, but they were. The battles for Fallujah and the initial invasion, would be examples.

    Consider that California (which is about a third bigger than Iraq) has had about 12,000 murders since 2003. That would put the level of violence at about 10 times greater in Iraq. I can believe that. I can’t believe that the level of violence in Iraq during the invasion/occupation, however, exceeds that of the Iran-Iraq war which would be required if I accepted the Johns Hopkins figure.

  62. 62
    tribune7 says:

    They could almost be talking about a different war. The media here, and most politicians on the left, seem to have a hatred for the USA.

    The media here does too as does the Democratic Party sometimes I think. 🙂

    Actually, what I think is that the leftists, in whatever country, hate freedom, and leftists, in whatever country, gravitate to media-type jobs.

    Probably because they don’t have to think real hard.

  63. 63
    PaV says:

    Jerry:

    Both Hitler and Mussolini were socialists to the end so it is ludicrous to say that fascist were right wing.

    I’m glad to know that I’m not the only one who sees it this way.

  64. 64
    Alann says:

    We love to distort these terms.

    It amazes me that we some how end up with a phrases like “freedom hating leftist media”.

    It starts with the quite reasonable position that the media in general opposes censorship and favor freedom of the press. Thus the media is liberal (favors freedom). A liberal (progressive) is the opposing view to a conservative. A conservative is on the right, therefore the “liberal” media is “leftist”. Socialism and Communism are on the left. These are associated with oppressive governments like Stalinism, therefor the media is “freedom hating”. So those who want freedom actually hate it. (Hmm, maybe that explains the whole “greeted as liberators” thing.)

    BTW, Both Hitler and Mussolini were Nationalists (right) and Militarists (right) in greater degree then they where Socialists (left). If we put Nationalism on the right and Socialism on the left, then I suppose freedom loving people are really dead center.

  65. 65
    rockyr says:

    Tribune, Jerry, PaV, I agree that the labels “left/right” wing, “liberal/conservative”, and other so-called opposites like capitalist/socialist, etc. are misleading. I am surprised that the Oxford dictionary does not clarify this. Their definition of right-wing is:

    3. That section of a political party, assembly, or other body most tending to hold conservative or reactionary views.

    Their definition of left-wing is non-existent, in fact it is a nonsensical circular reference of “left” pointing to “left-wing” and vice-versa. This is a serious flaw. So what other flaws can one find in less-prestigious dictionaries? Other dictionaries define left-wing as “the liberal, socialist, or radical” with reference to the National Assembly in France (1789–91), where the nobles sat to the president’s right and the commons to the left.

    As I hinted previously, these simple dictionary definitions seem to be useless and misleading. One has to look behind the definitions, and at the real meaning of these antagonistic movements that are usually associated with the left/right labels. Not an easy thing in general, (most people are confused about this), or in a blog that is meant to be brief, since one would have address the complex history of the last century of so, or even going to the ancient Rome.

    Jerry, if fascism is not compatible with communism, it is because communism is nothing like the idea of the Roman fasces, (the bundle of rods bound up with an axe in the middle, which were carried by lictors before the superior magistrates at Rome as an emblem of their power.) The idea of the Roman “republic” or the “res-publica” (which means “the public thing”) is quite different from the communist dictatorship. One could argue that it is the ideal of the Roman republic that the US ought to be striving for, i.e. making its politics a “public” thing.

    Mussolini’s life is quite fascinating and full of interesting moments. His name “Benito” (after a Mexican reformer), his childhood and youth as an atheist and anti-clericalist, his vagrant life in Switzerland, (which was at that time a hot-bed of the future Soviet communists like Lenin), his 1917 war injury which supposedly had something to do with his sudden change towards anti-socialism, to his baptism in 1927.

    Also fascinating is Hitler’s life and ideology, his quasi-religiosity and how he twisted it into creating his own new ideology with which he managed to fool and control the whole nation. It would really pay for the ID to study those aspects of German history which lead to that climax, from the Reformation, to Friedrich the Great’s atheism, Goethe’s evolutionism, to Nietzche, Hegel, Marx, etc. Evolutionism was the key ingredient.

    It is of secondary importance that both Mussolini and Hitler were socialists. They needed a state with total control, so naturally socialism would do. In fact, communism is just a more radical form of socialism, and that is why the British socialists like G. B. Shaw admired and defended Communism in Russia, even after Stalin intentionally starved millions to death in Ukraine. Socialism is characterized by the total state control of all productive means, so it would be quite inaccurate to call Hitler or Mussolini right-wing and Stalin left-wing.

    (Total state control was used whenever there were a serious need for it, such as when repelling an invader, and there are many examples of it in history. Hitler’s hatred of communism and of Russia was of a different kind, but for a while Hitler and Stalin managed to form a short secret pact, until they destroyed both the Catholic Austria and Poland, which were for centuries the key powers in Central Europe.)

  66. 66
    D.A.Newton says:

    Just a historical note about Reichstag seating when the National Socialists first gained admittance.

    The National Socialists were to be seated between the Communists and the Socialists (Social Democrats) with the liberals and conservatives both to the right of the Socialists. But to avoid as much violence in the chamber as possible, it not being a good idea to seat two opposing gangs of thugs next to each other, the National Socialists were seated to the right of the conservatives, not where they fit in the political spectrum.

    (Please note that the liberals and conservatives here mentioned are not distinct political parties, but, rather agglomerations of smaller parties, whereas the Communists, National Socialists, and Social Democrats were parties in their own right. Oh, the joys of proportional representation!)

    This is probably where the notion, fervently peddled by Leftists since the defeat of Germany in 1945, that the National Socialists were a right wing party came from.

  67. 67
    jerry says:

    There is a new book on the market by Jonah Goldberg titled “Liberal Fascism” which talks about what these movements were/are. Apparently the most fascist of all Americans was Woodrow Wilson and this was before the term was coined.

    If one has time and a way to listen to mp3 recordings then go to

    http://instapundit.com/archives2/013336.php

    and download a discussion of this book by the author.

  68. 68
    dacook says:

    Mike 1962:
    And let’s not forget that the early Mormon leaders predicted that the US constitution would “hang by a thread” and that the Mormon church would somehow come gallopping in to save the day. And that the “Kingdom of God” was ordained in Nauvoo IL around 1842 by Joseph Smith, where he was “crowned king.” Evangelicals who know about this stuff are going to wonder what’s *really* in Romney’s head about all that.

    Mike;
    This is the kind of out-of-context, purposely misleading crap which overflows anti-Mormon websites and which Huckabee seems so well versed in.
    ID proponents cry “foul” when people get their information on ID from anti-ID, pro-Darwin sites and then dismiss ID out of hand without really looking at it.
    The same principle of fairness applies to Mormons: If you want information about them, go to them. If you have real questions there are knowledgeable people who can give real answers, not like Huckabee and his ilk.
    You can go to the official church website or there is an excellent Discussion Board where you can air and get good answers to any questions or anti-mormon accusations you’ve heard of.

  69. 69
    tribune7 says:

    If we put Nationalism on the right and Socialism on the left, then I suppose freedom loving people are really dead center.

    OTOH, if we put totalitarianism on one end of the spectrum (you can pick which as to your preference) and anarchy on the other, you will find communism/fascism/Nazism grouped together with socialism a little bit behind and a constitutional republic close the anarchy end.

  70. 70
    StuartHarris says:

    jerry,

    Thanks for the tip on Goldberg’s new book, Liberal Facism. I just ordered it from amazon.

  71. 71
    rockyr says:

    Jerry, Re: Jonah Goldberg. Listened to the interview, very interesting. Application of Mussolini’s totalitarianism to today’s society, smashing the sanctity of the family, the two party system analogy – mommy & daddy kind of citizen nurturing, etc. I like his definition of the left/right wing socialism — right wing = national socialism, left wing = international socialism, with the evolutionary assumption that the “nation” is doomed to extinction and will one day disappear. Interesting observation about Hitler’s flag symbolism — the red field was meant to attract the communists. I read Francis Fukuyama’s End of History after it was published, and I think I may re-visit it again just to refresh my memory.

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