SAD NEWS EVENT: Mass murder at nightclub in Orlando, FL

_{kairosfocus

June 12, 2016

Geo-strategic issues, News, Off Topic}

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Drudge headline:

A bit of background: The club may have attracted terrorist attention. Info re believed shooter. Allegiance to Islamic State Worst mass shooting in US? Islamic State claims responsibility US Prez: “Our thoughts and prayers are with the families and loved ones of the victims.“

Sky News:

[youtube y60wDzZt8yg]

I add, current Wki article intro, as Wiki tends to do a fair job of tracking developing events:

>>On June 12, 2016, a gunman killed at least 50 people and wounded 53 others in a mass shooting at Pulse, a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida. The gunman was identified as 29-year-old Omar Mir Seddique Mateen, an American citizen of Afghan descent.^[3] The Orlando Police Department are treating the case as an act of domestic terrorism.^[4] The shooter pledged allegiance to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) before the attack.^[5]^[6]

The incident is the deadliest mass shooting^[7]^[8]^[4]^[9] and the deadliest attack on LGBT people in United States history;^[10] and it is the deadliest “terror attack” in the U.S. since the September 11, 2001 attacks.^[11]^[12]>>

This seems to be of a — horrific — piece with the Paris and San Bernardino attacks. (The direct parallel to Bataclan makes chatter about “gun control” as the solution patently irrelevant.)

Per Drudge, it seems Gateway Pundit and Walid Shoebat are saying there was an ISIS threat against Florida three days ago. Sky News reports a call to emergency services just prior to the attack, during which loyalty was pledged to IS. A now sadly familiar modus operandi.

Mass murder, demonic evil on the loose, 4th generation war with no distinction between military and civilians.

Let us get what seems to be relevant geostrategic context:

It seems the weapon is ~~an AR-15~~ Sig Sauer MXC Semi-Auto, which would be a semiauto 5.56 mm NATO weapon. At Bataclan, AK 47s were used.

I think, again, that we need to look to serious target hardening, given the successful defense of the Geller event in Garland TX. END

Comments

VS, The first effective response was 3 hrs in as noted. You seem pre-occupied to undermine objectivity of morality while implying something wrong was done. Is that on what basis other than your own tastes and references? Try, right to life as a fundamental right tracing to being a quasi-infinitely valuable person. On which others owe basic duties of care including respect for life. Let this go for now. KFkairosfocus_{June 15, 2016
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KF: First, the op to take out the terr was 3 hrs in, which is the relevant response time. Understandably they needed to set up. The comparative is that marshals on the spot would respond in seconds as at Garland TX. There was an armed policeman there, response time was seconds KF. Police are trained to handle hostage situations. Notice, as a purveyor of alcohol, gun free zone. Yes, guns in bars is generally viewed as dangerous One police officer is nowhere enough protection, there is need for layered defences starting at access points and with overwatch of large assembly areas. Sure, that would be ideal, we live in a world of finite resources. There are 537 bars and restaurants in Austin, it sounds like you would need thousands of civilian marshals to donate their time for training and duty, Every day of the year. For no pay,right? For one city. And, dismissive caricatures of what is needed are not going to help us: disciplined, trained, organised defences systematically rolled out across the community, planned as thoroughly as the Swiss have organised their citizen military. It is no caricature KF, you are talking about a massive undertaking of putting non professional armed men throughout urban America . We need to register that we are back to the 1400 year war, and that we face determined 4th generation war tactics. The IslamISTS intend global conquest on a 100 year timeline. They can plan all they want, shooting up a gay bar is not going to help world conquest. As shown through captured documents. Terrorism, acquiring nukes and settlement jihad are all components of a strategy. Duly funded by the ME oil patch. Sure, scary. I am not saying this is popular or easy or will stop all assaults, but we need to wake up before what would be needed is so draconian that liberty will be among the casualties. It sounds creating a society where we are under constant surveillance by armed men for our own possible protection that Liberty is already a causality Next, I find it amazing that after swearing allegiance to the Caliph (pregnant with significance as noted), and after ISIS acknowledged such, the no clear connexion to IslamISM talking point is still being pushed. To create fear is the only relevant talking point There are signs of long term links that have come up also, this was a known case not out of the blue. Yes,he sounds like a pissed off guy, possibly with repressed gay feelings, investigated by the FBI twice, who despite this was able to purchased highly efficient killing machines easily. As for the attempt to smear objectivity of morality, what part of right to life do you not understand? Your objective morality, KF. The killers of ISIS claim divine objectivity as well. They might say your objective morality is just your opinion of what the divine commands.velikovskys_{June 15, 2016
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F/N: Raymond Ibrahim, a former Muslim, gives sobering counsel here. Well worth reading in full and following up onward links. As a sampler, one key remark:
To the careful observer, all of these reactions from liberals, leftist media, and the Obama administration are par for the course whenever a jihadi terror attack occurs on American soil: stout denial of any connection between the attack in question and Islamic teachings; cynically exploiting the attack to demonize conservatives, gun advocates, and “homophobic” Christians; and cries that any scrutiny into Islam is tantamount to a “backlash” against Muslims. And it’s because all these reactions are standard that many more Islamic terrorist attacks are destined to occur on American soil.
Sobering food for thought. Further sobering FFT. 4GW experts tend to agree that there are two effective ways to defeat a 4GW strategy: drain the sea of people in which the guerrillas swim as Mao's fish, or else ruthlessly deploy over-matching light infantry (and specialist troops for the info, lawfare and agit-prop battlespaces). I suppose, or both. 4GW builds on guerrilla warfare by exhaustion and frustration and on the long history of piracy, so just forting up is not going to solve the problem. Nor will refusing to recognise settlement jihad (cf Ibrahim here) and establishment of enclaves and agents of influence for what they are. Eventually, a 4GW strategy has to be decisively defeated and utterly discredited at source. Often, frankly, involving some attrition that means taking casualties of your own to inflict large enough losses to decisively weaken the 4GW attackers who are forced to come out and fight; preferably for their logistics tail -- and, no more off-limits sanctuaries, please. A guerrilla without adequate logistics is little more than a desperate straggler. Mix in modern, database backed CSI and soon he is a criminal on the run too with spec ops troops or a Hellfire missile just waiting to come in the door. That's what "To the Shores of Tripoli" is about, after centuries of payoff by W powers to the Barbary Coast Pirates. KFkairosfocus_{June 15, 2016
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F/N: Overnight, I became aware the actual main weapon used was a semi-auto Sig Sauer MCX, not an AR-15; I assume the calibre is still 5.56 mm x 45 mm NATO and/or 0.223 inch Remington (similar but not the same) intermediate power* round. I believe the pistol used was a Glock 9 mm, but that is still an impression. I have adjusted the OP. I would like to see a summary on weapons use and effects, which would give useful context; beyond the forehead centre hit on the SWAT officer that seemed to have knocked off the night vision mount of his helmet -- which in that context implies use of a 9 mm parabellum type pistol at that point as the 5.56 would have likely fatally penetrated (longer barrel, so higher speed but less "handy"). [Cf. here for preliminary info that suggests a shoot the way in, then shoot up scenario.] The 49:103 killed to wounded ratio is extremely high; but then a forehead centre hit from a handgun suggests trained, experienced, regularly practised and accurate marksmanship much superior to that of say a typical police officer. KF PS, FYI: In the 1940's the Germans pioneered full calibre, standard powder load automatic rifles for paratroopers (in Crete, paratroopers with only pistols were decimated going up against Commonwealth troops armed with the fast cycling 0.303 Lee Enfield bolt action rifle and the Bren before they could reach their separate weapons containers); but found them hard to control, by contrast with say the heavier BAR, BREN or Lewis LMGs. As a result the MP 43/MP [--> StG] 44 intermediate power weapon was designed. Hitler himself, who viewed rifles as excessively defensive, on learning of the MP 44, renamed it Sturm Gewehr, assault rifle. The move to intermediate round was also driven by recognition that over 90% of actual combat was within 300 m. The results were sufficiently impressive that the Russians adopted the AK 47. In the 1960's the US forces began to use the M16, having inter alia found out that full auto on the7.62 mm NATO M14 battle rifle was difficult to control. It is noteworthy that from the 1950's, forced to standardise on 7.62 NATO (rather than the briefly adopted bullpup EM-2 firing an intermediate power 0.280 round) the British opted for a semiauto version of the FN FAL, the SLR. In 1962, Indian troops using the Lee Enfield were out-gunned by Chinese troops with AKs and SKS semiauto weapons firing the 7.62 mm x 39 mm cartridge. In the aftermath of the 1967 6-day war, experience with the FAL and Uzi led Israel to migrate to the Galil and M16; now they are going to the Tavor. In the 1970's the USSR moved to 5.45 mm with the AK 74, but the older AK 47 is the most common AR in the world because it was widely supplied to Soviet and Chinese clients. The M14 made a bit of a comeback as in Afghanistan attackers were pulling back beyond the M-16's effective range. (Note my preference for 6.5 mm Grendel in a Tavor, which is a modern bullpup.) However, the same characteristics of low recoil, manageability of weapon and useful effective range that pushed full auto infantry weapons to the AR type configuration, have led to dominance of AR-15 semiauto rifles similar to the M16 in the commercial rifle market. PPS: The "corrected" WaPo article here is inadvertently revealing of underlying gaps between the shaping narrative and the truth, even just by contrast with the sketchy outline just above. In short, there is a question on accuracy, balance, context and fairness that should put up Amber-Red warning flags.kairosfocus_{June 14, 2016
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KF 26 "Lastly, it is high time that the attempts to project accusations or insinuations of hate, bigotry etc to those who have principled objections to homosexual behaviour were repudiated by those who should know better." Odd, isn't it, that it is the peace loving Muslims who are killing gays, instead of the supposedly hateful Christians who stand for traditional marriage.anthropic_{June 14, 2016
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GC, the evidence is patently there, that this particular incident is Jihadism motivated; Col Austin Bay is useful reading https://www.strategypage.com/on_point/20160613205048.aspx . It also points to a much broader 4th gen war threat from the IslamISTS (as opposed to all Muslims). Again, Sun Tzu's dictum is a hard bought lesson. KFkairosfocus_{June 14, 2016
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Mung: "I’m still trying to process how terrorism is not a hate crime." Of course terrorism is a hate crime. But not all hate crimes are terrorism. "Maybe we should pass a law making terrorism a hate crime." Fine by me. But it seems rather redundant.Gordon Cunningham_{June 14, 2016
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I'm still trying to process how terrorism is not a hate crime. Maybe we should pass a law making terrorism a hate crime.Mung_{June 14, 2016
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KF: "Something is deeply wrong when so many cannot bring themselves to acknowledge that jihad by bands, assassins etc is real and ongoing. KF" No, something is deeply wrong when paranoid, disturbed individuals assign every horrific event to the "jihad". In this case, every bit of evidence suggests a seriously disturbed individual who despised homosexuals. He mentioned ISIS and you are more than happy to lump him in with your world-wide Islamist conspiracy. You ignore all evidence that it was not an ISIS planned attack. But you don't care. It fits with your paranoid narrative.Gordon Cunningham_{June 14, 2016
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GC, enough has been said (perhaps, other than that IS derives from AQ and Hez, Iran and Sunni groups can and do work together in the common Jihad cause), and It is enough to add that denial will not change the reality Sun Tzu warned against. Something is deeply wrong when so many cannot bring themselves to acknowledge that jihad by bands, assassins etc is real and ongoing. KFkairosfocus_{June 14, 2016
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KF: "Are you aware of the nature of the shame-honour culture at work and how it motivates jihad by bands, suicidal assassin attacks and so-called honour killings?" Why, was there something about it that you were not sure about? "Next, pledging allegiance to the Caliph before or during an attack has a very significant theological-legal force in IslamISM. That cannot be swept aside." When it is done at the same time that he claims allegiance to groups that are enemies of the Caliph it can be swept aside as the ramblings of a mad man. "Overall, it seems there is an insistence on denial of the patent facts of a jihad attack at the same time as a global surge is going on." Or the insistence on examining the facts and drawing the most rational conclusion. "As for morally loaded human behaviour, it is morally loaded." Duh! Killing 49 people and wounding 50+ more for the crime of being gay would tend to make it morally loaded behaviour. "It is not disrespectful to victims of murder to have to speak to material circumstances. The murder is enough to require recognition of a wrong done. However that cannot transmute what they were doing into morally neutral or good behaviour." Yes, it is disrespectful. The fact that you would suggest that none of the victims is going to heaven because they are homosexual is one of the most disrespectful things I can think of. But this disrespect obviously doesn't bother you. My moral standards are obviously higher than yours. "Lastly, it is high time that the attempts to project accusations or insinuations of hate, bigotry etc to those who have principled objections to homosexual behaviour were repudiated by those who should know better." Nobody is projecting or insinuating anything. If you perceive my comments as such, that really is due to your mindset, not mine.Gordon Cunningham_{June 14, 2016
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GC, Are you aware of the nature of the shame-honour culture at work and how it motivates jihad by bands, suicidal assassin attacks and so-called honour killings? (It seems there is a persistent even insistent failure of Sun Tzu's maxim: "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.") Next, pledging allegiance to the Caliph before or during an attack has a very significant theological-legal force in IslamISM. That cannot be swept aside. Overall, it seems there is an insistence on denial of the patent facts of a jihad attack at the same time as a global surge is going on. As for morally loaded human behaviour, it is morally loaded. It is not disrespectful to victims of murder to have to speak to material circumstances. The murder is enough to require recognition of a wrong done. However that cannot transmute what they were doing into morally neutral or good behaviour. Lastly, it is high time that the attempts to project accusations or insinuations of hate, bigotry etc to those who have principled objections to homosexual behaviour were repudiated by those who should know better. KFkairosfocus_{June 14, 2016
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KF: "He was not a crazy." That is certainly up for debate. "The context supports an act of honour by suicidal attack to redeem his name from shame under IslamIST thought." You must have a special power to know what he was thinking and know what his motivations were. If he was gay or bisexual it is quite possible that he hated himself if he had been raised that homosexuality is a sin and an abomination. This belief is not unique to Islam. All the more reason to stop spreading destructive messages like that, and to stop treating homosexuality as anything other than natural. "His pledging of allegiance to the Caliph of the IS indicates he was acting as an agent of the Umma in his understanding." And, as already been pointed out, he also claimed allegiance to groups that are enemies of ISIS. This is not the behaviour of a man following a well thought out agenda. It sounds more like the ramblings of a hateful mad man. "The lone crazy meme fails." Yet it still stands as the most plausible explanation until new evidence surfaces. "The repeated attempt to push Bible-believing Christians into the same boat with ISIS speaks volumes, and fails." Nobody is doing this. I am merely saying that a person as crazy as this person appears to have been would have latched onto any inspiration, however irrational, for his actions. I picked the Westboro Babtist church and Pat Robertson as examples because of their frequent and often irrational rants against homosexuality. It could just as easily been his homophobic grade school teacher, or an anti-homosexual web site. Why don't you send your clipped scripture to the families of the victims. I sure that they will be comforted by your telling them that their dead loved ones will not inherit the kingdom of God because they were unrepentant homosexuals. You, above all people, should know that words have consequences. Please be respectful of the victims.Gordon Cunningham_{June 14, 2016
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GC, From CNN re t-line:
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-shooting-timeline/ 2:09 a.m. ET: Pulse posts an urgent message on Facebook: "Everyone get out of Pulse and keep running." A tense standoff follows. Police say they had to wait three hours to access the situation, get armored vehicles on the scene and make sure they had enough personnel . . . . Approximately 5 a.m. ET: Heavily armed SWAT team members use an armored vehicle to smash down a door at the club, clearing the way for some 30 people inside to flee to safety. SWAT officers confront the suspect in the doorway, shoot and kill him. 5:05 a.m. ET: Post on Orlando police Twitter account says loud noise near scene was a "controlled explosion." That sound was a controlled explosion by law enforcement. Please avoid reporting inaccuracies at this time. — Orlando Police (OrlandoPolice) June 12, 2016 5:53 a.m. ET: Twitter account of police posts that shooter is dead.
Next, if you looked above you will see that I have spoken to why rum shops understandably are no firearms zones. I spoke to the need for a disciplined organised marshal corps. Which obviously would not be drink and shoot. I suggest, yes, target hardening through a civilian corps would be costly, but ultimately much less so than alternatives. Cf Israel in the face of attacks since 2000. The man was a licensed security guard since 2007 which allowed him to access concealed carry permit and to pass background checks. Such testing, necessarily, passed him as psychologically responsible. He was not a crazy. If ex wife is believable, he may well have been bisexual. Consistent, with the known Afghan pattern of "boy play." The context supports an act of honour by suicidal attack to redeem his name from shame under IslamIST thought. A shame-honour culture. His pledging of allegiance to the Caliph of the IS indicates he was acting as an agent of the Umma in his understanding. The IS seems to acknowledge him, and he seems to have years deep IslamIST background. And it seems an accomplice is sought. The lone crazy meme fails. We should also remind ourselves of Bataclan, which occurred in a Paris with far more stringent firearms restrictions. Compound this with the drugs and people smuggling trades; firearms smuggling and access to real assault rifles with select -- single/ burst/ full auto -- fire modes such as AK 47s cannot be blocked. Cf Mexico, Jamaica and Columbia. This is 4th generation war imposed by IslamISTS. The repeated attempt to push Bible-believing Christians into the same boat with ISIS speaks volumes, and fails. It seems I need to highlight very specific NT teaching on the relevant sin:
1 Cor 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[b] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[c] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. [ESV] ______________ [b] Or wrongdoers [c] The two Greek terms translated by this phrase refer to the passive and active partners in consensual homosexual acts
A call to redemption and life transformation as CY noted above, not murder. Backed up by many, many cases over 2,000 years. KFkairosfocus_{June 14, 2016
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F/N: The ex wife speaks: http://nypost.com/2016/06/13/shooter-used-to-visit-orlando-gay-club-use-gay-dating-apps/kairosfocus_{June 14, 2016
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KF: "First, the op to take out the terr was 3 hrs in, which is the relevant response time." No it's not. From the time of the second gun battle to the SWAT action, this idiot did not fire a shot. Every little detail of this will be picked apart but the response time was much shorter than three hours. "Notice, as a purveyor of alcohol, gun free zone." Because nothing has ever gone wrong with combining alcohol and firearms. By doing what you are proposing, you are admitting defeat. The level of protection you are suggesting would be very costly and either put many establishments out of business. The more I read about the Orlando killings, the more it looks like the act of a lone crazy. It is possible that something like this was the result terrorism, hate and the easy access to assault weapons. If ISIS didn't exist he could just as easily been inspired by the rantings of the Westboro Babtist church or Pat Robertson.Gordon Cunningham_{June 14, 2016
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F/N: Possible accomplice: http://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/wftv-arrest-expected-in-orlando-nightclub-mass-shooting/340918422 KFkairosfocus_{June 13, 2016
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VS, First, the op to take out the terr was 3 hrs in, which is the relevant response time. Understandably they needed to set up. The comparative is that marshals on the spot would respond in seconds as at Garland TX. Notice, as a purveyor of alcohol, gun free zone. One police officer is nowhere enough protection, there is need for layered defences starting at access points and with overwatch of large assembly areas. And, dismissive caricatures of what is needed are not going to help us: disciplined, trained, organised defences systematically rolled out across the community, planned as thoroughly as the Swiss have organised their citizen military. We need to register that we are back to the 1400 year war, and that we face determined 4th generation war tactics. The IslamISTS intend global conquest on a 100 year timeline. As shown through captured documents. Terrorism, acquiring nukes and settlement jihad are all components of a strategy. Duly funded by the ME oil patch. I am not saying this is popular or easy or will stop all assaults, but we need to wake up before what would be needed is so draconian that liberty will be among the casualties. Next, I find it amazing that after swearing allegiance to the Caliph (pregnant with significance as noted), and after ISIS acknowledged such, the no clear connexion to IslamISM talking point is still being pushed. There are signs of long term links that have come up also, this was a known case not out of the blue. As for the attempt to smear objectivity of morality, what part of right to life do you not understand? KFkairosfocus_{June 13, 2016
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KF: VS, A day has passed, maybe I can say a few things: 1 –> By tagetting a critical issue in the W culture wars, the jihadists got confused discussion and exacerbated polarisation in the W. Terrorism works by inducing fear, confusion and helpless compliance. Actually it looks like one guy, with no clear jihadist dogma. We have yet to determine if the jihadism was just rationalization for his solution to his culture wars. 2 –> By targetting revelry, drink and sexual deviancy subject to capital punishment under Sharia, they established the Jihadists as championing the Islamic vision of righteousness. It is their objective moral system . Interestingly the same day a nonjhadist was arrested armed to the teeth at the site of a gay pride parade.His motivation was unclear. 3 –> Simultaneously the W is tainted in Islamic minds, feeding the geostrategic rifts. Many people yearn for a return to the good old days when conformity could be enforced formally by law or informally by societal pressures. 4 –> As noted, the known attacker pledged allegiance to Al Baghdadi, Caliph, which in Islamic minds establishes credentials as a representative of the Umma in the battle with Dar ul Harb, of which the USA is seen as principal champion. He also expressed solidarity with known enemies of ISIS, for what that is worth. Your use of an unqualified " Islamic minds" is interesting, in your view is there only one kind of Islamic mind? 5 –> Further to the targetting, that this is part of a global surge during Ramadan is not coincidental. Agreed, ISIS called for such 6 –> The target was a soft one, putting the issue of target hardening on the table. There was an armed off duty police officer at the club who exchanged fire with the gunman, how many guns would have been sufficient hardening in a night club? 7 –> However, given the agenda that constructs “gun control” as solution to “gun violence” (failing to observe implications of Bataclan 2015 and Bombay 2008 etc) the reaction is to further soften targets No one claims that gun control will stop all terrorism, especially an organized military operation. As for softening targets, Florida gun control is hardly onerous and the killer still was able to kill 49 people. Apples to apples Gun control” is demonstrated not to be relevant to blunting jihad by bands/ assassin suicide team attacks, as it softens the targets. Irrelevant KF, this was one guy, the lack of a high powered rifle would have lowered the death toll. Your fixation on only one kind of terrorism is troubling, personally I don't really care who is pulling the trigger in the church or movie theatre or office party. The more inefficient the tool the better. Now if that means someone can't buy the most lethal killing tool without jumping thru a few hoops,sorry. There are plenty of deadly options out there to harden your target. Garland TX points the way, though handguns are not the best weapons. The people in Garland provoked a response and the police risked their lives to protect them, there was no element of surprise, so unless you are advocating 24hr police protection Garland is no prototype. 8 –> I have already pointed out the SWAT response time, 3 hours; in-place organised marshals defending access points and having sharpshooter overwatch of crowded areas would respond within a minute. (I favour semiauto Tavors with 6.5 mm Grendels and optical sights. Bullpup form factor, high accuracy. Longer barrel for a given length of weapon.) The swat team response was not 3 hours KF, it was three hours to kill the guy. So tell me what would your snipers shoot at, the night club? The bathroom the killer was barricaded in? I appreciate your love of firearms, they are amazing tools. But personally it seems like a riskier situation having bored volunteers sitting of roofs with high powered weapons having to make snap decisions and accurate shots than the risk of a terrorist attack. KFvelikovskys_{June 13, 2016
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PS: I add, churches and schools are typically also soft targets. The list of IslamIST terrorist attacks on churches and schools is grim.kairosfocus_{June 13, 2016
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VS, A day has passed, maybe I can say a few things: 1 --> By tagetting a critical issue in the W culture wars, the jihadists got confused discussion and exacerbated polarisation in the W. Terrorism works by inducing fear, confusion and helpless compliance. 2 --> By targetting revelry, drink and sexual deviancy subject to capital punishment under Sharia, they established the Jihadists as championing the Islamic vision of righteousness. 3 --> Simultaneously the W is tainted in Islamic minds, feeding the geostrategic rifts. 4 --> As noted, the known attacker pledged allegiance to Al Baghdadi, Caliph, which in Islamic minds establishes credentials as a representative of the Umma in the battle with Dar ul Harb, of which the USA is seen as principal champion. 5 --> Further to the targetting, that this is part of a global surge during Ramadan is not coincidental. 6 --> The target was a soft one, putting the issue of target hardening on the table. 7 --> However, given the agenda that constructs "gun control" as solution to "gun violence" (failing to observe implications of Bataclan 2015 and Bombay 2008 etc) the reaction is to further soften targets. "Gun control" is demonstrated not to be relevant to blunting jihad by bands/ assassin suicide team attacks, as it softens the targets. Garland TX points the way, though handguns are not the best weapons. 8 --> I have already pointed out the SWAT response time, 3 hours; in-place organised marshals defending access points and having sharpshooter overwatch of crowded areas would respond within a minute. (I favour semiauto Tavors with 6.5 mm Grendels and optical sights. Bullpup form factor, high accuracy. Longer barrel for a given length of weapon.) KFkairosfocus_{June 13, 2016
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KF: All of this is besides the main point that needs to be made here, which is tactical in a strategic context. Not grandstanding . . . a turnabout rhetorical tactic that does not speak well 07. Soft targets for terrorist attacks are a highly germane issue here, not a distraction. And the need to harden soft targets needs to be on the table. Then you should have not proclaimed that gun control was patently irrelevant in this incident.velikovskys_{June 13, 2016
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Sad news, thoughts and prayers with you from the UK.Splatter_{June 13, 2016
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First, let us mourn those lost -- only the chaos-devils of hell have anything to rejoice over here. Then, let us comfort those closely connected. Then, let us calm down to firm resolve and understand the strategic and tactical challenge our civilisation faces. Then, we must act in good time, guided by a sound understanding.kairosfocus_{June 12, 2016
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It was a evil,event. Its sad to lose these people to murder and all should grieve with those who loved them. Its still an obscure event and not sampling of anything at all. The common people will see it as only mattering about the murder. Its the troublemakers who would use this to advance the gay agenda , gun control, interference in the middle east, or anything else. How could these things be stopped. Stopping immigration or these third world immigrant, or Muslim ones? Stopping gay clubs or gay parades or anything of the gay agenda which provokes anger.? It seems these are obscure events america must put up with as long as involvement in the fringes of civilization. Someone is to blame at the top however. The rulers and the forceful identities , representing fewm, seem to be in control and not the common people through democratic procedures on who gets their way.Robert Byers_{June 12, 2016
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From zeroseven's last comment: "I think subsequent investigation will show this wasn’t an ISiS attack" News report: "Twenty minutes into the attack, Omar Mateen dialed 9-1-1 and pledged allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS, and mentioned the Boston bomber." One of the most spectacularly failed predictions in the history of the world. 07 should be grateful for being banned. It saves him from further such displays of idiocy, at least on these pages.Barry Arrington_{June 12, 2016
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"zeroseven is no longer with us." WTG - About time. But in case he's reading here, I offer this: Christians believe that homosexuality is sin. We make no apology for that. We also believe that gay people are made in God's image; and it's not a contradiction. And we believe that gay people have a right to congregate peacefully as they most often do. We will fight to protect that right. And when sons and daughters are gunned down, we mourn their loss as members of our communities; regardless of their sexual choices. You're comments are more than inflammatory, because some of us were gay by choice at one time, and have decided to follow Jesus. We know that we were just as valuable to God then, as we are now. We made that choice to leave behind our sexual desires in order to follow a higher calling, based on conviction. You obviously have "zero" respect for that conviction. Your commitment to the "progressive" mob mentality is apparent. Good luck with that. I'm actually glad you got kicked off here, because I found your recent comments here to be disgusting.CannuckianYankee_{June 12, 2016
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07, again, it would be better if we did not go into back-forths. However, it seems there is a matter of 1400 years of context. Jihad by bands and lone or small squad suicide-attack assassins is a longstanding issue. Indeed the very term assassin harks back to that history. Yes, those who go into such behaviours are deluded but that does not make the problem any less real. And indeed ISIS has shifted to attack at home, even in the Caribbean we have had serious scares in recent months including an apparently credible threat to blow up an airport. Over in T/dad an Imam, responding to recent parliamentary exchanges on Trinis going to fight with ISIS said, if you are on the street in T/dad and someone touches you on the shoulder it could be one of them. Look up the taqiyya concept, tactical/strategic deception. I suggest also that you need to look at Beslan, the Moscow Theatre attack, the recent knife attack campaign in Israel and more to further see the point. There is a real problem that needs to be faced not dismissed. KFkairosfocus_{June 12, 2016
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07 & Seversky (et al): I find the media spin game most ill advised, given that a more serious issue is on the table, murder driven by 4th generation warfare terrorism. But it seems that we are an increasingly challenged civilisation when it comes to thinking through serious matters. Too often,triggering, tangents and emotionally manipulative talking points substitute for sound thinking. Which concern should sound quite familiar. In that context, the attempt to invidiously associate principled objection to homosexualist agendas with bigotry, hate speech and worse is itself a warning flag. There is no excuse for this, which has been all over the news within hours. Sorry, despite agit prop tactics there is a serious question mark on the morality of homosexual behaviour and other similar matters of conduct; to try to pretend that questioning such can only be motivated by hate is itself a sign of just how seriously wrong such agendas are. And no, that people at a homosexual night club were subjects of mass murder is awful and to be mourned in its own right. But that does not convert objectively disordered or morally questionable behaviour into what is right. Those are two different issues. All of this is besides the main point that needs to be made here, which is tactical in a strategic context. Not grandstanding . . . a turnabout rhetorical tactic that does not speak well 07. Soft targets for terrorist attacks are a highly germane issue here, not a distraction. And the need to harden soft targets needs to be on the table. Now, before this stuff spins out of control utterly; requiring the sort of draconian measures that run serious risks for liberty. You have here an acknowledged ISIS terrorist attack, with the gunman involved making that clear also. Someone who was a known question-mark. If you took a moment to compare Garland, San Bernardino and Bataclan, you would immediately see the tactical point I have made. Softening the targets in the face of a 4th gen war terrorist threat is not going to help you. In Paris, guns are in effect banned. All that got you was a bigger killing zone. Ditto for Bombay, 2008. Garland TX showed a different way: harden the likely targets. Similar BTW to what the Israelis did with schools after some terrorist attacks in the 1970s. No, this is not oh let there be a free for all in the rum shops. The previous discussion pointed to the need to take a leaf from the Swiss and others, and to build a network of armed, trained, disciplined civilian marshals as a baseline target hardening response level. Notice, police took 3 hours coming on to mount an attack, long enough for a lot of victims to bleed out, but reasonable for those coming in from outside needing to find out the facts and set up a credible attack. Or things could have got much worse due to hasty ill informed action. That is obviously a when all else has failed response. We need something able to respond in seconds, trained, organised, disciplined armed responders on spot, who live there, work there, study there or whatever. A marshal corps. I did not say, this would be readily accepted in today's political climate. But I do say we have good reason to see that this would work. Back in the 1940's the Japanese military acknowledged that an attack on the continental USA would find a rifle behind every blade of grass. Meanwhile, let us all take a bit of time to pause and reflect on the sort of loss just suffered then wake up and recognise the sort of threats that confront us from jihad by bands up to the return of the Persian empire. KFkairosfocus_{June 12, 2016
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[Deleted] zeroseven is no longer with us.zeroseven_{June 12, 2016
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