Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

“In the Beginning Were the Particles” – Thoughts on Abiogenesis

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Recently we have been discussing Dr. Sewell’s thermodynamics-related paper/video on this thread.  In addition to some excellent discussion on the Second Law, the question of abiogenesis has naturally arisen.  Though related to the Second Law issue (by way of the compensation argument), I would like to move discussion of the abiogenesis question to this new thread, both so we can keep the other thread more focused on the Second Law, and also so we can have a more in-depth discussion here on this most fascinating topic of abiogenesis.

—–

I find posts that go on for dozens of pages to be rather tedious.  Notwithstanding my original intent, this post grew in length as I laid out the various points.  In the spirit of the great statesmen of old: I apologize for the length.  If I had had more time I would have made it shorter.

I. Asking the Right Questions

This topic of abiogenesis came up again on a different thread when AVS asserted that, given the Earth is an open system and receives energy from the Sun, “the generation of life was inevitable.”  Several commenters picked up on this, and I underscored that receipt of energy from the Sun doesn’t get us anywhere near the origin of life:

The compensation argument in regards to OOL and evolution is nonsensical because (i) OOL and evolution are not primarily thermal problems, (ii) even to the extent that energy is needed for OOL and evolution, simply pouring energy into the system isn’t helpful; there needs to be a directing process to channel the energy in useful ways, and (iii) no-one doubts that there is plenty of energy available, whether it be lightning strikes, volcanic vents, the Sun, deep sea vents, or otherwise; energy (at least in terms of raw quantity) has never been the issue.

I have also offered this challenge on more than one occasion, including in the recent discussions:

I’m willing to grant you all the amino acids you want. I’ll even give them all to you in a non-racemic mixture. You want them all left-handed? No problem. I’ll also grant you the exact relative mixture of the specific amino acids you want (what percentage do you want of glycine, alanine, arganine, etc.?). I’ll further give you just the right concentration to encourage optimum reaction. I’m also willing to give you the most benign and hospitable environment you can possibly imagine for your fledgling structures to form (take your pick of the popular ideas: volcanic vents, hydrothermal pools, mud globules, tide pools, deep sea hydrothermal vents, cometary clouds in space . . . whichever environment you want). I’ll even throw in whatever type of energy source you want in true Goldilocks fashion: just the right amount to facilitate the chemical reactions; not too much to destroy the nascent formations. I’ll further spot you that all these critical conditions occur in the same location spatially. And at the same time temporally. Shoot, as a massive bonus I’ll even step in to prevent contaminating cross reactions. I’ll also miraculously make your fledgling chemical structures immune from their natural rate of breakdown so you can keep them around as long as you want.

Every single one of the foregoing items represents a huge challenge and a significant open question to the formation of life, but I’m willing to grant them all.

Now, with all these concessions, what do you think the next step is?

Go ahead, what is your theory about how life forms?

In fairness, AVS has since backed down and said that his comment was just a “thought experiment”.  Later, when queried on the details, he further acknowledged that OOL is “not a simple feat” and “no simple task”.  Eventually, when Upright BiPed pressed on the informational and organizational aspects, AVS accused him of “moving the goalposts” and complained that even if he provided a mechanism for OOL we would “just sneer” and dismiss it.

I don’t mean to pick on AVS in particular.  We have seen this play out with more than one commenter over the years, and AVS’s frustration is understandable.  The abiogenesis story resides at the level of vague generalizations, questionable assumptions, and wild speculations.  It would be frustrating for any of us to have to provide a plausible naturalistic scenario.  Furthermore (and note, I am not saying this is the case with AVS necessarily), when someone thinks that life arose by purely natural processes – convinced even to the point of it forming an important part of their personal belief system – a challenge to that story becomes an attack on that person’s belief system, to their creation story, to their “Where did we come from?” and “Why are we here?” questions.

Finally, as is so often the case, when someone holds a strong belief in abiogenesis, they tend to assume the answers are out there somewhere – certainly at least the broad outlines, with the details soon to be filled in by noble scientists diligently dedicated to the task.  When that individual is forced to actually look into the details, however, it is understandably frustrating for them to discover that the answers aren’t out there and to be confronted by the fact that the abiogenesis story is riddled with holes . . . a dozen haunting questions springing up in the face of each minor issue addressed.  This is not only frustrating, but completely disconcerting – the original confidence giving way to quiet whispers of doubt, and the quiet whispers of doubt slowly building into a cacophony of cognitive dissonance.

billmaz offered a more realistic assessment of origin of life research:

Nobody has figured out abiogenesis. Let’s start with that. But it is also unscientific to immediately turn to deus ex machina to explain it. It is still a work in progress. The issue, as I see it, is not that certain molecules can spontaneously combine to form proteins, or RNA, but how did they “evolve” to actually correspond to information exchange? Which came first, the RNA or the proteins? And how did a code in the RNA come to correspond to a specific protein? And how the heck did all the other proteins evolve that are needed to translate the code from RNA (or later DNA) into proteins without there being an evolutionary advantage in any of the intervening steps? Damn difficult questions, but that doesn’t drive me to design yet. It’s just a challenge to exhaust all the known forces to explain it before I go hunting for an other-wordly one.

billmaz is at least highlighting some of the right questions.  And his comment raises two important issues:

1. What is the inference?  billmaz characterized the inference, essentially as, “We don’t know how life arose.  Therefore God did it.”  This is incorrect.  As I stated:

And the inference is not: “Abiogenesis is hard, so deus ex machina.”

The inference is: (i) naturalistic abiogenesis fails on multiple accounts, based on the current state of knowledge, (ii) there are good scientific reasons to conclude it isn’t possible given the resources of the known universe, furthermore (iii) we do know of a cause that can produce the kinds of effects at issue (the kinds of things you note in your #121). Even then, we can’t conclude that “God dunnit”; but, yes, we can draw a reasonable inference that some intelligent cause was responsible.

2. Can we draw the inference yet?  As to the question of whether we should hold off drawing an inference to design or wait until we have “exhausted” all other avenues of research, I think there can be a fruitful discussion.  I happen to think that there is plenty of evidence to draw a reasonable inference.  Others, I grant, may disagree.  But I fear perhaps some disagree precisely to avoid drawing an inference.

In other words, the following scenario quite often plays out:

If I acknowledge OOL is a hard problem, then I am at least being realistic and looking some of the facts squarely in the face.  Furthermore, if I say that design is a possible explanation, then I manifest my reasonableness in being open to alternative explanations.  But if I then couple my apparent reasonableness with a claim that design can only be seriously considered if and when – at some unspecified distant future, one that, conveniently, is far enough off to not present any present-day implications – all naturalistic possibilities (again, typically vague and unspecified) have been exhausted, then I have essentially foreclosed the realistic possibility of ever inferring design.  Design becomes some distant hypothetical, one that I can acknowledge in the spirit of appearing reasonable, while still keeping myself firmly planted in the “there is likely a natural explanation” camp.

I do not know if billmaz is using the “exhaust” all natural possibilities as a way to avoid drawing an uncomfortable conclusion about OOL.  Surely some are, but let’s assume for a moment that billmaz is truly willing, here and now, to consider design as a reasonable explanation, but just doesn’t think the science supports it.  Only billmaz can answer that question by looking hard in the mirror.  But fine.  I can live with that approach from an integrity standpoint.  I happen to disagree with billmaz and think that the science is quite clear on this issue, and that a reasonable inference can be drawn, but I remain open to the theoretical possibility of some new discovery that would change my mind.

On this issue of whether we know enough now to draw a reasonable inference or need to await future discoveries, Joe sarcastically responded to billmaz:

I’m with billmaz on this.  Science gave up way to[o] soon on Stonehenge.  Heck it’s only rocks and mother nature makes rocks in abundance.  So there isn’t any reason why mother nature, give[n] billions of years, couldn’t have produced many Stonehenge-type formations.

. . . We are just rushing to judgment with our meager “knowledge”.  Obviously the we of today don’t know anything but the we of tomorrow will figure it all out.

The science of today is meaningless and should just stay out of the way of the science of tomorrow.

Joe raises a good point, though.  Why are so many people willing to consider the possibility of design – nay, going so far as to conclude the fact of design – in the case of something like Stonehenge, but refuse to even consider the possibility of design in the origin of life?  It certainly cannot be because natural processes are more likely to have produced a living organism than Stonehenge.  Quite the contrary.

Is it because things like stones are more (no pun intended) concrete and easier to grasp for most people than harder-to-understand concepts like amino acids, homochiralty, interfering chemical reactions, etc.?

Is it because the origin of life resides in such a murky and distant past that the imagination can take over our rational faculties and produce fantasies of the “Who knows?  It might have happened.” variety?

Is it, as some argue, because we know humans exist and understand how humans might have created Stonehenge, but it is less definitive who or what could have created life?

Is it because of the constant propagandistic drumbeat of the truth of abiogenesis that pervades our schools and institutions of higher learning?

Is it because of a commitment to naturalistic explanations, no matter how absurd, and an unwillingness to consider intelligent causes, for fear of the implications?

Or a combination of the above?

I agree with billmaz that there is value in continuing the research and trying to find the answers.  No quibble there.  So perhaps it is more a question of where we are each at on the spectrum (see “Attitudes Toward Abiogenesis” below).

II. The Value of Origin of Live Research?

A fair amount of money is currently spent on origin of life research.  Some view a naturalistic origin of life as one of the great remaining questions that will undoubtedly (eventually) be answered by science.  Others view it as a fool’s errand, a waste of time and money.

Personally, I think there is value in origin of life research.  Certainly in the biochemical bench science aspect.  Even in some of the more intangible research questions – those surrounding how information arises, what protocols and hierarchies exist in the cell, and so on.  Not because I expect any of these efforts to yield a naturalistic explanation for the origin of life (quite the opposite), but because of the additional insights such efforts will yield to help us better understand exactly what we are up against in the creation of initial life.

I also expect origin of life research can be helpful in increasing our understanding of how simple organisms work (if not quite getting to the answer of how they arose), what parameters need to be taken into account, what engineering solutions can be brought to bear.  Finally, origin of life research can also provide insights into specific issues that can have application in biology beyond the strict “where did it come from” question.

Please don’t misunderstand.  I’m talking about real, objective, substantive scientific research.  I give no countenance to “research” or “studies” that consist of career-padding published papers filled with unfounded assumptions, wild speculations, attacks on design or religion, or philosophical propaganda about how life just surely must have arisen by purely natural means.

III. Attitudes Toward Abiogenesis

What then is the appropriate attitude toward naturalistic abiogenesis?

There are many possible approaches, but I believe the following offers a decent spectrum of possible attitudes:

1. Abiogenesis is true and we have a pretty good idea how it happened, just some details remain to be worked out.

2. Abiogenesis is true, but we don’t have a good idea how it happened.  However, with more time and additional study we will no doubt discover the details.

3. Abiogenesis is probably true, but we don’t know how it happened.  Nevertheless, science should focus on naturalistic explanations.

4. Abiogenesis may or may not be true.  There is much that we don’t know.  We should continue to exhaust all possible naturalistic explanations, but if those don’t pan out after a lot more study and research for several more decades, at some future point we may need to consider the possibility of design.

5. Abiogenesis may or may not be true.  We should continue to exhaust all possible naturalistic explanations, but in the meantime we should also be open to the possibility of design.

6. Abiogenesis may or may not be true.  It is too difficult a problem and too distant in the past for us to really study properly.  We’ll never know, and in the absence of specific empirical evidence we shouldn’t draw conclusions one way or another.

7. Abiogenesis is likely false.  There is good evidence that it cannot work within the resources of the known universe.  While we should continue to exhaust all possible naturalistic explanations, we should consider the possibility of design.

8. Abiogenesis is almost certainly false.  There are multiple and compounding problems with the abiogenesis story and strong evidence that it cannot work within the resources of the known universe.  Furthermore, there is good evidence for design and we can draw a reasonable inference to design.  However, we should continue to exhaust all possible naturalistic explanations.

9. Abiogenesis is false, with essentially the same level of certainty that anything can be said to be false.  There are multiple and compounding problems with the abiogenesis story and powerful evidence that it cannot work within the resources of the known universe.  Furthermore, the evidence points strongly to design and we can draw a reasonable inference of design.  However, we should continue to carry out origin of life research, as such research could change our assessment of the evidence and/or provide answers to other important biological questions in the process.

10. Abiogenesis is false, with essentially the same level of certainty that anything can be said to be false.  Furthermore, it is a fool’s errand and we should stop wasting money on origin of life research.

—–

What Do You Think?

A. Which of the above approaches to abiogenesis most closely represents your view, or is there another one you would like to share?

B. In addition to the challenges to a naturalistic abiogenesis that I have outlined in section II above, what other aspects of the abiogenesis story are problematic?

C. If you had a chance to give a 30-second “elevator pitch” to someone, what would you say in those few brief words to help them catch a glimpse of the challenges with the naturalistic abiogenesis story and, potentially, consider the possibility of design in the origin of life?

Comments
Upright, I've already defined what a living organism is here. Here it is at the most basic level; something that separates the external and internal environment, has metabolic activity, can reproduce, and can evolve.AVS
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
10:37 PM
10
10
37
PM
PDT
AVS,
The simple metabolic activity of the first cell I proposed is based on chemical reactions common in the environment, meaning they do not need to be encoded in a medium. They occur no matter what in or outside the cell. The intracellular environment allows slight alterations to the possible reactions that would occur outside of the cell.
I can assure you that everyone here completely understands these words. The problem is that they do nothing whatsoever to illuminate the origin of a Darwinian-capable self-replicating cell. Yet, you repeatedly call this a "living organism". Perhaps we can cut this exchange down to something fitting its nature. You say you can reach a "living organism" without recorded information. How do you define a living organism? And in answering this question, do us the favor of imagining that Crick, Nirenberg, Hoagland, Venter, and Szostak were here to judge what you say. Surely you envision a "living organism" as something more than what you've argued for thus far - a "common" chemical reaction inside a non-biotic membrane. Note: I am giving you the opportunity to un-ass yourself from your careless remarks. Consider taking that opportunity.Upright BiPed
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
10:25 PM
10
10
25
PM
PDT
AVS @123:
We can’t “see” the magic begin. We don’t have any scientific methods that would allow us to look at this cell we’ve produced.
What does this even mean? If we're working with chemicals in the lab and producing molecules we don't have any "scientific methods" to look at what we're producing? How can we produce a cell if there is no scientific method for looking at it?
You guys have no knowledge of experimental biology, and that is why you don’t see the problem with asking us to directly demonstrate the production of the first living cell.
No-one has asked you to directly demonstrate the production of the first living cell. I certainly haven't even asked you to produce any living cell. Most abiogenesis critics would be impressed with even one relatively complex self-replicating molecule, or an information-rich molecule, or a functional protein complex. Forget a complete cell; let's just start with the baby steps. No-one is asking for an account of what actually happened. Just a coherent, rational, supportable, proposal for what could happen. Something more than vague generalizations and wild speculations. Something that has enough substance to be taken seriously. Something that at least addresses the known issues in the formation of a living cell. Shoot, most of us would be duly impressed with something that is even reasonably plausible. Something that is even semi-detailed. Something that passes the laugh test.Eric Anderson
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
10:25 PM
10
10
25
PM
PDT
How did I miss the central issue? I admitted that the functions of the cell must at some point be encoded into a medium of information. And I also said I have no idea how this happened. The simple metabolic activity of the first cell I proposed is based on chemical reactions common in the environment, meaning they do not need to be encoded in a medium. They occur no matter what in or outside the cell. The intracellular environment allows slight alterations to the possible reactions that would occur outside of the cell. For the last time, I am not going to get into the formation of a information translation system, as I have already said I am not equipped to do so.AVS
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
09:57 PM
9
09
57
PM
PDT
AVS, It seems you missed the central issue again. Allow me to repeat it. Whatever organization you propose must be encoded into a medium and subsequently translated (while preserving the discontinuity between the medium and the organization) in order to replicate itself with Darwinian heredity. In other words, the "simple metabolic activity" you suggest must (as a physical necessity) include the capacity to encode its make-up and structure into a medium, and pass that medium along with the means to translate it into a descendent cell. It must do this while maintaining the physical discontinuity between the arrangement of the medium and the product of its translation. Without this, you do not have what any serious researcher would claim to be a Darwinian-capable self-replicating cell. Diverting to observations of non-biotic membranes and assumed gaps in our knowledge that confirm the materialist paradigm do not change the physical necessities of the cell.Upright BiPed
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
09:45 PM
9
09
45
PM
PDT
Hmmm, Mung telling me I am wrong again? Got anything to prove it? You sound so sure of yourself.AVS
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
09:40 PM
9
09
40
PM
PDT
AVS: Upright, as for the existence of a membrane itself, it does not need to be encoded in a medium. It is simply passed on through successive growth/division cycles which, as I said, can be driven by the partitioning of more amphipathic molecules into the early membrane. Your claim is that a cell membrane does not need to be encoded in a medium. Your claim is that a cell membrane is "simply passed on through successive growth/division cycles." not trueMung
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
09:32 PM
9
09
32
PM
PDT
No, no no no, Mung. So you're going to try to weasel your way out of this one? If you can provide something from this book, I will analyze it 100% unbiased. The only things I regard as psychobabble are the things that come straight out of the mouths of you and your friends here, and what I regard as quote mines, are usually just that, as I have just demonstrated yours. Do not try to shift anything onto me. I am still waiting for you to provide a single word from this book. And if you honestly think I have not demonstrated that I now what I am talking about, then I don't know what to say. I'd say I know a pretty good amount about anything you can think of cell biology related. And again, to get a "current" cell membrane from an environment without cells, I know next to nothing. But, to get a very simple membrane that would function in the most basic way, I know is not a very difficult process once you have a pool of amphipathic molecules in water. It's driven by entropy actually, google the "hydrophobic effect." Maybe you'll learn something. I doubt it.AVS
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
09:31 PM
9
09
31
PM
PDT
AVS, you've made it clear that anything I can provide from the book would be regarded by you as a "quote-mine," to be equated with "psychobabble" and "nonsense." The onus is now upon you to demonstrate that you know what you're talking about and that you're not simply trolling. What do you know about cell membranes, if anything? What do you know of what is required to get to a current cell membrane from an environment without cells or cell membranes, if anything? Your claim appears to be reducible to "it's possible" without knowing what "it" is.Mung
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
09:19 PM
9
09
19
PM
PDT
Mung, you took my "I have no need to spend $70" quote and made it seem like I was avoiding talking to you about the book. Despite my asking multiple times for you to talk to me about the book. Which, you are still yet to do. I am still waiting for you to back up your claim that the book "proves me wrong." Any day now... Upright, as for the existence of a membrane itself, it does not need to be encoded in a medium. It is simply passed on through successive growth/division cycles which, as I said, can be driven by the partitioning of more amphipathic molecules into the early membrane. What needs to be encoded and then translated are the proteins that are modify the make-up of the membrane along with many other functions. But the membrane is able to serve its purpose in these simple cells without complex modification of the membrane leaflets. I completely understand where you are coming from. Yes, at some point, the simple functions of early cells need to begin being represented as a form of information that can be passed on to successive daughter cells. And as I have said multiple times, I have no idea how this happened, therefore I am not even going to try to start explaining it. I'm sure someone who works with gene regulation can give you a just so story that explains the basics of how a system might have a risen, and I'm sure that someone who specifically works on OOL and this issue can give you an even more descriptive story. But in the end, no one really knows how it happened and were not even close to understanding how it might have happened.AVS
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
08:42 PM
8
08
42
PM
PDT
I would say the formation of a membrane enclosed cell, with simple metabolic activity represents the organization of something pretty organized.
Has it occurred to you that this "organization" you propose must be encoded into a medium and subsequently translated (while preserving the discontinuity between the medium and the organization) in order to replicate itself with Darwinian heredity? You are suggesting an entity that perpetuates itself into the future, are you not?Upright BiPed
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
08:22 PM
8
08
22
PM
PDT
AVS:
Everything I said has a basis in science that has already been conducted.
lolMung
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
08:22 PM
8
08
22
PM
PDT
AVS:
I would say the formation of a membrane enclosed cell, with simple metabolic activity represents the organization of something pretty organized.
So? Protocells: Bridging Nonliving and Living Matter Please direct us to the chapter that demonstrates the experimental formation of a membrane enclosed cell with simple metabolic activity. If you can.Mung
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
08:18 PM
8
08
18
PM
PDT
AVS:
You’re right it is the same-old psychobabble, quote-mining nonsense as usual from you guys.
Give that I have not provided a single quote from the book, I fail to see how the "quote-mine" charge can be relevant. You appear to have your mind made up already, regardless. Is there some topic you are NOT dogmatic about?Mung
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
08:10 PM
8
08
10
PM
PDT
Yes, the people that legitimately ask these question's are the ones that are working in their lab, trying to find the answer. However, when you and your friends on here ask the same questions and expect an answer, despite knowing there is no current answer, you end up only succeeding in making yourself look like an idiot. Everything I said has a basis in science that has already been conducted. As I said multiple times, I did not originally intend to try to explain the complex organization we see today. I only intended to very briefly describe the origin of the most basic organization of the cell: the separation of extra/intra-cell environments and state the current ideas of an early metabolic system. You were the one to join the conversation claiming that I cannot explain the origin of a complex translation and replication system, when I never intended to do so. I would say the formation of a membrane enclosed cell, with simple metabolic activity represents the organization of something pretty organized. Also, no where do I say that researchers are not interested in the origin of a translation system. What I said is that they have no idea how it occured. You have the same ability to read for understanding as Joe does I'm sorry to say. You should worry about your own ability to reason, not mine.AVS
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
07:11 PM
7
07
11
PM
PDT
AVS,
Upright, you think pointing out that I can’t demonstrate how a system of organization would arise is winning you the argument. It’s not.
My comments to you, as I've already said, were intended to demonstrate that your belligerent certainty has no basis in physical science. A possible side benefit would be that you mediate your childish belligerence (if not your certainty) once you come to realize that your ideas have nothing whatsoever to do with organizing the cell.
It’s only demonstrating that you can ask questions which no one knows the answer to. Congratulations.
Many ask these questions, AVS. They do it for a valid reason. This should be obvious.
My original idea was only meant to outline the formation of the first living cell. I am not prepared to really get into how the transcription/translation system we see today originated, and neither is anyone else.
Firstly, your original idea does neither "form" nor "organize" a "first living cell". Secondly, you are seriously mistaken about real OoL researchers. They are intensely interested in how the translation system originated. Unlike yourself, they know it's the key to organizing the cell.
We still don’t know everything about how the system even works today. Good job adding nothing to the conversation as usual.
Complaining about my contribution on topics you refuse to discuss is entirely pointless outside whatever rhetorical comfort you may draw from it. AVS, do yourself a favor. If you are studying to be a bench scientist, don't go through your entire career with this level of adolescent reasoning. Try to improve your ability to connect what can be shown to what can be said. My guess is you'll talk less and say more.Upright BiPed
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
06:47 PM
6
06
47
PM
PDT
Joe, I know it's a lot to ask but please, for once in your life, read something for understanding. I am not saying that abiogenesis cannot be tested. I am saying that we cannot directly demonstrate and "see" it, as you guys say we must do, with today's today's technology. If you were to tell me what it is that you need to see, to accept that abiogenesis is the best explanation for the formation of life, I would be able to give you at least ten reasons why it is not feasible with technology today.AVS
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
06:26 PM
6
06
26
PM
PDT
And as for experimental biology, again if the claims of your position cannot be tested and have to hide behind the curtain of father time, then don't call it science. And don't blame us. We are just asking how to test your position's claims.Joe
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
05:56 PM
5
05
56
PM
PDT
AVS, if no one knows the answer then don't call it science. To say unguided evolution produced transcription and translation is dogmatic bull. THAT should be a major problem for anyone remotely interested in science.Joe
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
05:54 PM
5
05
54
PM
PDT
AVS- You are all bluff. I just wanted to see you crash and burn, again. What are you- first year biology student?Joe
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
05:51 PM
5
05
51
PM
PDT
Upright, you think pointing out that I can't demonstrate how a system of organization would arise is winning you the argument. It's not. It's only demonstrating that you can ask questions which no one knows the answer to. Congratulations. My original idea was only meant to outline the formation of the first living cell. I am not prepared to really get into how the transcription/translation system we see today originated, and neither is anyone else. We still don't know everything about how the system even works today. Good job adding nothing to the conversation as usual.AVS
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
05:48 PM
5
05
48
PM
PDT
Joe, I do not have the time to go on and on with multiple people about protocells. All I want is Mung to produce a single thing from this book (that I doubt he's even read)that "proves me wrong." The only person that I think is bluffing here is Mung. Well, and you Joe.AVS
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
05:37 PM
5
05
37
PM
PDT
"There wasn’t any technology back when abiogenesis happened." Really EA? You don't say. Did you make that statement for the benefit of all the people here at UD who are still in the second grade? You must have, since there are so many. "All we need to do is get the right atoms together in our artificial “warm little pond” or mud globule or crystal lattice, and we should see the magic begin." And that is where the issue is. We can't "see" the magic begin. We don't have any scientific methods that would allow us to look at this cell we've produced. You guys have no knowledge of experimental biology, and that is why you don't see the problem with asking us to directly demonstrate the production of the first living cell.AVS
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
05:35 PM
5
05
35
PM
PDT
OK can someone get a protocell thread going, please? AVS check back, it could happen. If you promise to engage Mung and Upright Biped in good faith, which means being the evidence, I promise to stay out of it (on this forum) and let you guys have at it. But if you are just going to spew your usual evidence-free drivel then all bets are off, so to speak.Joe
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
05:31 PM
5
05
31
PM
PDT
Mung, still waiting for you to mention one thing in the book that "proves me wrong," as you said. Saying I "don't want to discuss protocells" with you is an outright lie, as I've tried to get you to talk about this topic, and your book, multiple times now. You're right it is the same-old psychobabble, quote-mining nonsense as usual from you guys.AVS
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
05:19 PM
5
05
19
PM
PDT
Upright BiPed:
Yes, you have. You’ve argued that sunlight, agitation, and a natural membrane are the key insights to the creation of the first living organism – which you describe as inevitable.
AVS:
I have no need to spend $70+ dollars on the book when you have it in front of you.
AVS won't discuss "the critical translation apparatus " with UBP and won't discuss protocells with me. Go figure. Bluff called. AVS folds:
Welp, it’s been interesting as always guys. Adios.
Interesting for you maybe. Same old same old for us.Mung
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
05:00 PM
5
05
00
PM
PDT
"Unlike some, I am open to anything and everything," I've noticed. :) Exactly why should the note at the end be puzzling? Is the scientific method not a part of consciousness?bornagain77
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
04:51 PM
4
04
51
PM
PDT
Unlike some, I am open to anything and everything, bornagain. In fact, I would love it. To me "science" does not mean "materialism." If Alexander has something to show, great. The note at the end is puzzling: to "unpack the science" means he still follows the scientific method.billmaz
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
03:57 PM
3
03
57
PM
PDT
billmaz, I admire your enthusiasm for the progress of science, but the future of science may be far different than just 'more of the same' as you seem to envision it: Dr. Eben Alexander Says It's Time for Brain Science to Graduate From Kindergarten - 10/24/2013 Excerpt: As long as scientists hold onto that simplistic (materialistic) thinking they are going to be mired down to never, ever explain consciousness or the enigmas of quantum mechanics. But there are a lot of scientists out there who do get it,,, The pure scientific materialist model that I worshiped for so many years has absolutely nothing to offer up in terms of explaining how consciousness might emerge from the physical brain.,,, consciousness is a far deeper, more profound mystery than "kindergarten level" scientific materialism offers up. Now that's why I include in my book the hard problem of consciousness and the enigma of quantum mechanics.,,, It's time for brain science, mind science, physics, cosmology, to move from kindergarten up into first grade and realize we will never truly understand consciousness with that simplistic materialist mindset. Of note: Dr. Alexander is working on a new book he says will unpack the science behind his recently adopted theories on brain, consciousness, and spirituality. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ingrid-peschke/near-death-experiences_b_4151093.htmlbornagain77
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
03:23 PM
3
03
23
PM
PDT
Barry @81:
BA77 @ 80. I take it that Eric is not conceding any of these things in principle. He is merely conceding them for the sake of argument.
Exactly correct. I hope that was clear from the OP, but apologies to everyone if I wasn't quite explicit enough. As I said:
Every single one of the foregoing items represents a huge challenge and a significant open question to the formation of life, but I’m willing to grant them all. Now, with all these concessions, what do you think the next step is? Go ahead, what is your theory about how life forms?
The purpose of this challenge is to cut through all the red tape and the side roads about this or that development in abiogenesis research and focus on the most fundamental issues: that of information infusion and control mechanisms. Materialist abiogenesis proponents get all excited when there is an announcement about some amino acid found in a comet or a "biological" molecule that was created from simple precursors in the lab. In their unabated enthusiasm they tend to think "progress" is being made toward the materialist creation story. At the time I issued the challenge my purpose was to avoid getting bogged down in all these kinds of questions -- what the early atmosphere was like, whether it was RNA-first or something else, whether it was mud globules or volcanic vents or warm little ponds. I granted for purposes of argument all of the physical conditions and material elements necessary for life . . . every single one of them. And the question is, even with all of that, how does life get started? Crickets . . .Eric Anderson
April 6, 2014
April
04
Apr
6
06
2014
12:12 PM
12
12
12
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 7

Leave a Reply