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“In the Beginning Were the Particles” – Thoughts on Abiogenesis

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Recently we have been discussing Dr. Sewell’s thermodynamics-related paper/video on this thread.  In addition to some excellent discussion on the Second Law, the question of abiogenesis has naturally arisen.  Though related to the Second Law issue (by way of the compensation argument), I would like to move discussion of the abiogenesis question to this new thread, both so we can keep the other thread more focused on the Second Law, and also so we can have a more in-depth discussion here on this most fascinating topic of abiogenesis.

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I find posts that go on for dozens of pages to be rather tedious.  Notwithstanding my original intent, this post grew in length as I laid out the various points.  In the spirit of the great statesmen of old: I apologize for the length.  If I had had more time I would have made it shorter.

I. Asking the Right Questions

This topic of abiogenesis came up again on a different thread when AVS asserted that, given the Earth is an open system and receives energy from the Sun, “the generation of life was inevitable.”  Several commenters picked up on this, and I underscored that receipt of energy from the Sun doesn’t get us anywhere near the origin of life:

The compensation argument in regards to OOL and evolution is nonsensical because (i) OOL and evolution are not primarily thermal problems, (ii) even to the extent that energy is needed for OOL and evolution, simply pouring energy into the system isn’t helpful; there needs to be a directing process to channel the energy in useful ways, and (iii) no-one doubts that there is plenty of energy available, whether it be lightning strikes, volcanic vents, the Sun, deep sea vents, or otherwise; energy (at least in terms of raw quantity) has never been the issue.

I have also offered this challenge on more than one occasion, including in the recent discussions:

I’m willing to grant you all the amino acids you want. I’ll even give them all to you in a non-racemic mixture. You want them all left-handed? No problem. I’ll also grant you the exact relative mixture of the specific amino acids you want (what percentage do you want of glycine, alanine, arganine, etc.?). I’ll further give you just the right concentration to encourage optimum reaction. I’m also willing to give you the most benign and hospitable environment you can possibly imagine for your fledgling structures to form (take your pick of the popular ideas: volcanic vents, hydrothermal pools, mud globules, tide pools, deep sea hydrothermal vents, cometary clouds in space . . . whichever environment you want). I’ll even throw in whatever type of energy source you want in true Goldilocks fashion: just the right amount to facilitate the chemical reactions; not too much to destroy the nascent formations. I’ll further spot you that all these critical conditions occur in the same location spatially. And at the same time temporally. Shoot, as a massive bonus I’ll even step in to prevent contaminating cross reactions. I’ll also miraculously make your fledgling chemical structures immune from their natural rate of breakdown so you can keep them around as long as you want.

Every single one of the foregoing items represents a huge challenge and a significant open question to the formation of life, but I’m willing to grant them all.

Now, with all these concessions, what do you think the next step is?

Go ahead, what is your theory about how life forms?

In fairness, AVS has since backed down and said that his comment was just a “thought experiment”.  Later, when queried on the details, he further acknowledged that OOL is “not a simple feat” and “no simple task”.  Eventually, when Upright BiPed pressed on the informational and organizational aspects, AVS accused him of “moving the goalposts” and complained that even if he provided a mechanism for OOL we would “just sneer” and dismiss it.

I don’t mean to pick on AVS in particular.  We have seen this play out with more than one commenter over the years, and AVS’s frustration is understandable.  The abiogenesis story resides at the level of vague generalizations, questionable assumptions, and wild speculations.  It would be frustrating for any of us to have to provide a plausible naturalistic scenario.  Furthermore (and note, I am not saying this is the case with AVS necessarily), when someone thinks that life arose by purely natural processes – convinced even to the point of it forming an important part of their personal belief system – a challenge to that story becomes an attack on that person’s belief system, to their creation story, to their “Where did we come from?” and “Why are we here?” questions.

Finally, as is so often the case, when someone holds a strong belief in abiogenesis, they tend to assume the answers are out there somewhere – certainly at least the broad outlines, with the details soon to be filled in by noble scientists diligently dedicated to the task.  When that individual is forced to actually look into the details, however, it is understandably frustrating for them to discover that the answers aren’t out there and to be confronted by the fact that the abiogenesis story is riddled with holes . . . a dozen haunting questions springing up in the face of each minor issue addressed.  This is not only frustrating, but completely disconcerting – the original confidence giving way to quiet whispers of doubt, and the quiet whispers of doubt slowly building into a cacophony of cognitive dissonance.

billmaz offered a more realistic assessment of origin of life research:

Nobody has figured out abiogenesis. Let’s start with that. But it is also unscientific to immediately turn to deus ex machina to explain it. It is still a work in progress. The issue, as I see it, is not that certain molecules can spontaneously combine to form proteins, or RNA, but how did they “evolve” to actually correspond to information exchange? Which came first, the RNA or the proteins? And how did a code in the RNA come to correspond to a specific protein? And how the heck did all the other proteins evolve that are needed to translate the code from RNA (or later DNA) into proteins without there being an evolutionary advantage in any of the intervening steps? Damn difficult questions, but that doesn’t drive me to design yet. It’s just a challenge to exhaust all the known forces to explain it before I go hunting for an other-wordly one.

billmaz is at least highlighting some of the right questions.  And his comment raises two important issues:

1. What is the inference?  billmaz characterized the inference, essentially as, “We don’t know how life arose.  Therefore God did it.”  This is incorrect.  As I stated:

And the inference is not: “Abiogenesis is hard, so deus ex machina.”

The inference is: (i) naturalistic abiogenesis fails on multiple accounts, based on the current state of knowledge, (ii) there are good scientific reasons to conclude it isn’t possible given the resources of the known universe, furthermore (iii) we do know of a cause that can produce the kinds of effects at issue (the kinds of things you note in your #121). Even then, we can’t conclude that “God dunnit”; but, yes, we can draw a reasonable inference that some intelligent cause was responsible.

2. Can we draw the inference yet?  As to the question of whether we should hold off drawing an inference to design or wait until we have “exhausted” all other avenues of research, I think there can be a fruitful discussion.  I happen to think that there is plenty of evidence to draw a reasonable inference.  Others, I grant, may disagree.  But I fear perhaps some disagree precisely to avoid drawing an inference.

In other words, the following scenario quite often plays out:

If I acknowledge OOL is a hard problem, then I am at least being realistic and looking some of the facts squarely in the face.  Furthermore, if I say that design is a possible explanation, then I manifest my reasonableness in being open to alternative explanations.  But if I then couple my apparent reasonableness with a claim that design can only be seriously considered if and when – at some unspecified distant future, one that, conveniently, is far enough off to not present any present-day implications – all naturalistic possibilities (again, typically vague and unspecified) have been exhausted, then I have essentially foreclosed the realistic possibility of ever inferring design.  Design becomes some distant hypothetical, one that I can acknowledge in the spirit of appearing reasonable, while still keeping myself firmly planted in the “there is likely a natural explanation” camp.

I do not know if billmaz is using the “exhaust” all natural possibilities as a way to avoid drawing an uncomfortable conclusion about OOL.  Surely some are, but let’s assume for a moment that billmaz is truly willing, here and now, to consider design as a reasonable explanation, but just doesn’t think the science supports it.  Only billmaz can answer that question by looking hard in the mirror.  But fine.  I can live with that approach from an integrity standpoint.  I happen to disagree with billmaz and think that the science is quite clear on this issue, and that a reasonable inference can be drawn, but I remain open to the theoretical possibility of some new discovery that would change my mind.

On this issue of whether we know enough now to draw a reasonable inference or need to await future discoveries, Joe sarcastically responded to billmaz:

I’m with billmaz on this.  Science gave up way to[o] soon on Stonehenge.  Heck it’s only rocks and mother nature makes rocks in abundance.  So there isn’t any reason why mother nature, give[n] billions of years, couldn’t have produced many Stonehenge-type formations.

. . . We are just rushing to judgment with our meager “knowledge”.  Obviously the we of today don’t know anything but the we of tomorrow will figure it all out.

The science of today is meaningless and should just stay out of the way of the science of tomorrow.

Joe raises a good point, though.  Why are so many people willing to consider the possibility of design – nay, going so far as to conclude the fact of design – in the case of something like Stonehenge, but refuse to even consider the possibility of design in the origin of life?  It certainly cannot be because natural processes are more likely to have produced a living organism than Stonehenge.  Quite the contrary.

Is it because things like stones are more (no pun intended) concrete and easier to grasp for most people than harder-to-understand concepts like amino acids, homochiralty, interfering chemical reactions, etc.?

Is it because the origin of life resides in such a murky and distant past that the imagination can take over our rational faculties and produce fantasies of the “Who knows?  It might have happened.” variety?

Is it, as some argue, because we know humans exist and understand how humans might have created Stonehenge, but it is less definitive who or what could have created life?

Is it because of the constant propagandistic drumbeat of the truth of abiogenesis that pervades our schools and institutions of higher learning?

Is it because of a commitment to naturalistic explanations, no matter how absurd, and an unwillingness to consider intelligent causes, for fear of the implications?

Or a combination of the above?

I agree with billmaz that there is value in continuing the research and trying to find the answers.  No quibble there.  So perhaps it is more a question of where we are each at on the spectrum (see “Attitudes Toward Abiogenesis” below).

II. The Value of Origin of Live Research?

A fair amount of money is currently spent on origin of life research.  Some view a naturalistic origin of life as one of the great remaining questions that will undoubtedly (eventually) be answered by science.  Others view it as a fool’s errand, a waste of time and money.

Personally, I think there is value in origin of life research.  Certainly in the biochemical bench science aspect.  Even in some of the more intangible research questions – those surrounding how information arises, what protocols and hierarchies exist in the cell, and so on.  Not because I expect any of these efforts to yield a naturalistic explanation for the origin of life (quite the opposite), but because of the additional insights such efforts will yield to help us better understand exactly what we are up against in the creation of initial life.

I also expect origin of life research can be helpful in increasing our understanding of how simple organisms work (if not quite getting to the answer of how they arose), what parameters need to be taken into account, what engineering solutions can be brought to bear.  Finally, origin of life research can also provide insights into specific issues that can have application in biology beyond the strict “where did it come from” question.

Please don’t misunderstand.  I’m talking about real, objective, substantive scientific research.  I give no countenance to “research” or “studies” that consist of career-padding published papers filled with unfounded assumptions, wild speculations, attacks on design or religion, or philosophical propaganda about how life just surely must have arisen by purely natural means.

III. Attitudes Toward Abiogenesis

What then is the appropriate attitude toward naturalistic abiogenesis?

There are many possible approaches, but I believe the following offers a decent spectrum of possible attitudes:

1. Abiogenesis is true and we have a pretty good idea how it happened, just some details remain to be worked out.

2. Abiogenesis is true, but we don’t have a good idea how it happened.  However, with more time and additional study we will no doubt discover the details.

3. Abiogenesis is probably true, but we don’t know how it happened.  Nevertheless, science should focus on naturalistic explanations.

4. Abiogenesis may or may not be true.  There is much that we don’t know.  We should continue to exhaust all possible naturalistic explanations, but if those don’t pan out after a lot more study and research for several more decades, at some future point we may need to consider the possibility of design.

5. Abiogenesis may or may not be true.  We should continue to exhaust all possible naturalistic explanations, but in the meantime we should also be open to the possibility of design.

6. Abiogenesis may or may not be true.  It is too difficult a problem and too distant in the past for us to really study properly.  We’ll never know, and in the absence of specific empirical evidence we shouldn’t draw conclusions one way or another.

7. Abiogenesis is likely false.  There is good evidence that it cannot work within the resources of the known universe.  While we should continue to exhaust all possible naturalistic explanations, we should consider the possibility of design.

8. Abiogenesis is almost certainly false.  There are multiple and compounding problems with the abiogenesis story and strong evidence that it cannot work within the resources of the known universe.  Furthermore, there is good evidence for design and we can draw a reasonable inference to design.  However, we should continue to exhaust all possible naturalistic explanations.

9. Abiogenesis is false, with essentially the same level of certainty that anything can be said to be false.  There are multiple and compounding problems with the abiogenesis story and powerful evidence that it cannot work within the resources of the known universe.  Furthermore, the evidence points strongly to design and we can draw a reasonable inference of design.  However, we should continue to carry out origin of life research, as such research could change our assessment of the evidence and/or provide answers to other important biological questions in the process.

10. Abiogenesis is false, with essentially the same level of certainty that anything can be said to be false.  Furthermore, it is a fool’s errand and we should stop wasting money on origin of life research.

—–

What Do You Think?

A. Which of the above approaches to abiogenesis most closely represents your view, or is there another one you would like to share?

B. In addition to the challenges to a naturalistic abiogenesis that I have outlined in section II above, what other aspects of the abiogenesis story are problematic?

C. If you had a chance to give a 30-second “elevator pitch” to someone, what would you say in those few brief words to help them catch a glimpse of the challenges with the naturalistic abiogenesis story and, potentially, consider the possibility of design in the origin of life?

Comments
billmaz, in regards to your Pinker link, I suggest you really need to stop getting your scientific information about how humans are improving from an atheist who currently supports infanticide: Australia Awards Infanticide Backer Peter Singer Its Highest Honor – 2012 Excerpt: Singer is best known for advocating the ethical propriety of infanticide. But that isn’t nearly the limit of his odious advocacy. Here is a partial list of some other notable Singer bon mots: - Singer supports using cognitively disabled people in medical experiments instead of animals that have a higher “quality of life.” - Singer does not believe humans reach “full moral status” until after the age of two. Singer supports non-voluntary euthanasia of human “non-persons.” - Singer has defended bestiality. - Singer started the “Great Ape Project” that would establish a “community of equals” among humans, gorillas, bonobos, chimpanzees, and orangutans. - Singer supports health-care rationing based on “quality of life.” – Singer has questioned whether “the continuance of our species is justifiable,” since it will result in suffering. – Singer believes “speciesism” — viewing humans as having greater value than animals — is akin to racism. http://www.lifenews.com/2012/06/12/australia-awards-infanticide-backer-peter-singer-its-highest-honor/ Moreover, the stats Singer cited are bogus: Steve Pinker’s bogus statistics (against Christianity being a force for good in the world): - August 2013 Pinker’s Claim:: World War I, as I recall, was a war fought mostly by Christians against Christians. As for World War II and its associated horrors, see my answer to the previous question. True or False? Utterly irrelevant to the question of whether religion is a force for violence. Matthew White has this to say on the matter: Q: Is religion responsible for more violent deaths than any other cause? A: No, of course not — unless you define religion so broadly as to be meaningless. Just take the four deadliest events of the 20th Century — Two World Wars, Red China and the Soviet Union — no religious motivation there, unless you consider every belief system to be a religion. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/steve-pinkers-bogus-statistics-a-critique-of-the-better-angels-of-our-nature-part-one/ Steve Pinker’s bogus statistics: A critique of The Better Angels of Our Nature (Part Two) https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/steve-pinkers-bogus-statistics-a-critique-of-the-better-angels-of-our-nature-part-one-2/bornagain77
April 6, 2014
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WJM @74: Thanks for the post. Gave me a good chuckle!Eric Anderson
April 6, 2014
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InVivoVeritas @70:
Let’s do some reasoning together. Life requires self-replication ability.
I'm not sure that life, in and of itself, requires self-replication/reproduction. We could certainly conceive of an organism that does not reproduce itself (for sterility reasons or otherwise) that would still be considered alive. That said, I understand your broader point about the challenging requirements for self-replication -- the self-replication that is a characteristic of essentially every life form we study. I'm currently in the process of putting together a related follow-on post, which I hope to have up in a few days, and would love your thoughts on it. Also, thank you for the reference to your excellent page on a minimum cell model. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this issue as well the past few years and it is an exceedingly interesting issue. I'll definitely try to read through your essay in more detail (I know we discussed it a while back, but I want to refresh my memory of the issues you brought up).Eric Anderson
April 6, 2014
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billmaz,
I have no doubt that at some point they will find the answers (for the theory of everything), seeing the incredible progress they have made in the past century. What then? Does that mean anything with respect to God? I say no.
Actually billmaz, contrary to your apparent knee-jerk reaction, the 'correct' theory of everything has everything to do with God: Gravity, despite intense effort by many brilliant minds,,,,
Bohemian Gravity – Rob Sheldon – September 19, 2013 Excerpt: (the video) has gone viral–the one man a cappella production of “Bohemian Gravity”.,,,, ,,,there’s a large contingent of physicists who believe that string theory is the heroin of theoretical physics. It has absorbed not just millions of dollars, but hundreds if not thousands of grad student lifetimes without delivering what it promised–a unified theory of the universe and life. It is hard, in fact, to find a single contribution from string theory despite 25 years of intense effort by thousands of the very brightest and best minds our society can find. http://rbsp.info/PROCRUSTES/bohemian-gravity/
,,,despite all this effort, Gravity still refuses to be unified with Quantum Mechanics (which really should not be all that surprising given Godel’s incompleteness theorem). In light of this dilemma that the two very different eternities present to us spiritually minded people,
Two very different eternities revealed by physics https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/nyt-columnist-asks-is-intelligent-design-theory-a-form-of-parallel-universes-theory/#comment-490689
and the fact that Gravity is, in so far as we can tell, completely incompatible with Quantum Mechanics, it is interesting to point out a subtle nuance on the Shroud of Turin. Namely that Gravity was overcome in the resurrection event of Christ:
A Quantum Hologram of Christ’s Resurrection? by Chuck Missler Excerpt: “You can read the science of the Shroud, such as total lack of gravity, lack of entropy (without gravitational collapse), no time, no space—it conforms to no known law of physics.” The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. Dame Piczek created a one-fourth size sculpture of the man in the Shroud. When viewed from the side, it appears as if the man is suspended in mid air (see graphic, below), indicating that the image defies previously accepted science. The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/847 THE EVENT HORIZON (Space-Time Singularity) OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN. – Isabel Piczek – Particle Physicist Excerpt: We have stated before that the images on the Shroud firmly indicate the total absence of Gravity. Yet they also firmly indicate the presence of the Event Horizon. These two seemingly contradict each other and they necessitate the past presence of something more powerful than Gravity that had the capacity to solve the above paradox. http://shroud3d.com/findings/isabel-piczek-image-formation Particle Radiation from the Body – July 2012 – M. Antonacci, A. C. Lind Excerpt: The Shroud’s frontal and dorsal body images are encoded with the same amount of intensity, independent of any pressure or weight from the body. The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image. Radiation coming from the body would not only explain this feature, but also the left/right and light/dark reversals found on the cloth’s frontal and dorsal body images. http://www.academicjournals.org/sre/PDF/pdf2012/30JulSpeIss/Antonacci.pdf
Moreover, as would be expected if Gravity and Quantum Mechanics were truly unified in the resurrection event of Jesus Christ, the image on the Shroud of Turin was formed by a quantum process not by a classical process:
The absorbed energy in the Shroud body image formation appears as contributed by discrete values – Giovanni Fazio, Giuseppe Mandaglio – 2008 Excerpt: This result means that the optical density distribution,, can not be attributed at the absorbed energy described in the framework of the classical physics model. It is, in fact, necessary to hypothesize a absorption by discrete values of the energy where the ‘quantum’ is equal to the one necessary to yellow one fibril. http://cab.unime.it/journals/index.php/AAPP/article/view/C1A0802004/271 Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural – December 2011 Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists. However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax. Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic. “The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin,” they said. And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: “This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date.” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html “In mathematics there are two ways to go to infinity. One is to grow large without measure. The other is to form a fraction in which the denominator goes to zero. The Cross is a path of humility in which the infinite God becomes finite and then contracts to zero, only to resurrect and thereby unite a finite humanity within a newfound infinity.” William Dembski PhD. Mathematics – The End Of Christianity – Finding a Good God in an Evil World – Pg.31 The Center Of The Universe Is Life – General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin – video http://vimeo.com/34084462
Verse and Music:
Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Kari Jobe – Revelation Song – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FObjd5wrgZ8
bornagain77
April 6, 2014
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The same goes with abiogenesis.
Bill, you use the term abiogenesis as a foregone conclusion instead of the unsupported presumption that it actually is (in the face of universal evidence to the contrary). Further, you sometimes say these things as if ID proponents were bringing evidence to the table that was illegitimate in some sense. Living things on earth are largely dependent on a semiotic system of information processing that has identifiable physical properties which are not demonstrated anywhere in the physical world except during the translation of language, mathematics, and in the genome.Upright BiPed
April 6, 2014
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bornagain, I am well aware of the problems with quantum mechanics and relativity. However, you must also be aware that there are several theories which try to deal with reconciling them (supersymmetry, string theory), which may or may not be right. I have no doubt that at some point they will find the answers, seeing the incredible progress they have made in the past century. What then? Does that mean anything with respect to God? I say no. Just because we discover God's laws and try to mimic them says nothing about His existence. Knowledge, in and of itself, says nothing about ultimate origins. The same goes with abiogenesis. If we ever do find a physical answer to how life began, does that say anything about God? I say no again. The question is not whether we can learn and use the laws of the universe, but how did they get there in the first place? That's where we should focus our attention.billmaz
April 6, 2014
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barb, I am not a Biblical scholar so I'll take your word for what the Bible says. However, I must make the point that evidence shows that our species is getting better, not worse, especially when it comes to violence. Steven Pinker, author of The Better Angels of Our Nature, and Joshua Goldstein, author of Winning the War on War, when interviewed on NPR make the following points: http://www.npr.org/2011/12/07/143285836/war-and-violence-on-the-decline-in-modern-times "Joshua Goldstein argues that despite Iraq and Afghanistan, Congo and Sudan, the past 10 years have seen fewer war deaths than any decade in the past 100 years. And Harvard psychologist Steven Pinker goes even further. We may be living in the most peaceful period in the history of our species." And, "Yes, the decline of war that scholars such as Joshua Goldstein have documented is one of a number of historical declines of violence. Others include the plummeting of rates of interpersonal violence, one-on-one homicides, which have fallen by about a factor of 35 since the Middle Ages in every European country for which statistics are available. Another example is the abolition of cruel and barbaric institutionalized practices like human sacrifice, like chattel slavery, like the use of the death penalty for trivial infractions, the burning of heretics, bear-baiting, the list goes on." I suggest that all of those trends are evidence that the human race is actually improving.billmaz
April 6, 2014
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"So (humans) creating a universe is not a crazy as you may think." No actually from theoretical concerns, and from purely philosophical concerns, it is still as crazy as I think. Genesis 3:5 "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." of note, Perhaps they should first figure out how this particular universe is actually constructed with a 'theory of everything' before they seek to create brand new universes in the lab??? :) Just a piece of unsolicited advice! Quantum Mechanics and Relativity – The Collapse Of Physics? – video – with notes as to plausible reconciliation that is missed by materialists http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6597379/ THE MYSTERIOUS ZERO/INFINITY Excerpt: The biggest challenge to today's physicists is how to reconcile general relativity and quantum mechanics. However, these two pillars of modern science were bound to be incompatible. "The universe of general relativity is a smooth rubber sheet. It is continuous and flowing, never sharp, never pointy. Quantum mechanics, on the other hand, describes a jerky and discontinuous universe. What the two theories have in common - and what they clash over - is zero.",, "The infinite zero of a black hole -- mass crammed into zero space, curving space infinitely -- punches a hole in the smooth rubber sheet. The equations of general relativity cannot deal with the sharpness of zero. In a black hole, space and time are meaningless.",, "Quantum mechanics has a similar problem, a problem related to the zero-point energy. The laws of quantum mechanics treat particles such as the electron as points; that is, they take up no space at all. The electron is a zero-dimensional object,,, According to the rules of quantum mechanics, the zero-dimensional electron has infinite mass and infinite charge. http://www.fmbr.org/editoral/edit01_02/edit6_mar02.htmbornagain77
April 6, 2014
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billmaz writes,
Why can’t evolution, which can be viewed as just another part of ‘nature’s laws,’ be part of God’s laws?
Simply put, the Bible presents mankind as getting further and further away from perfection (devolving, if you will). Evolution presents mankind as getting closer and closer to perfection, or becoming better. The two beliefs are at complete odds with each other.Barb
April 6, 2014
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bornagain, in fact , scientists are seriously considering the possibility of creating a universe. Look at the following article: http://www.casavaria.com/sentido/science/2006/06-0802-new-universe.htm "A radical new project could permit human beings to create a "baby universe" in a laboratory in Japan. While it sounds like a dangerous undertaking, the physicists involved believe that if the project is successful, the space-time around a tiny point within our universe will be distorted in such a way that it will begin to form a new superfluid space, and eventually break off, separate in all respects from our experience of space and time, causing no harm to the fabric of our universe." And on http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6545246, Columbia physicist Brian Greene contemplates the same thing: "This is not going to happen tomorrow. Not even close. But according to Columbia University physics professor Brian Greene, it is theoretically not impossible (which is his way of saying the possibilities are not zero) that one day, a person could build a universe." (Sorry about not knowing how to use HTML tags) Also, in Arjun Bagchi, Stephane Detournay, Daniel Grumiller, Joan Simón. Cosmic Evolution from Phase Transition of Three-Dimensional Flat Space. Physical Review Letters, 2013; 111 (18) DOI: 10.1103/PhysRevLett.111.181301 "When time and space are heated, an expanding universe can emerge, without requiring anything like a "Big Bang." This phase transition between a boring empty space and an expanding universe containing mass has now been mathematically described by a research team at the Vienna University of Technology, together with colleagues from Harvard, the MIT and Edinburgh. The idea behind this result is a remarkable connection between quantum field theory and Einstein's theory of relativity." So creating a universe is not a crazy as you may think. Why do it? Good question. Just to see if you can?billmaz
April 6, 2014
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Folks, let's keep the conversation civil. I've just now had time to look at some of the comments, so I apologize for not moderating a bit sooner. Joe, please refer to AVS by his screenname. AVS, the name calling and pronouncements of your scientific superiority and our scientific illiteracy are not helpful, and do not support your case. Many of us have read your comments on the other thread and find them lacking in substance. That said, you are welcome to do a guest post that lays out your case for abiogenesis. Furthermore, notwithstanding the rabbit-hole literature bluffs folks have sent us down on numerous occasions, if you feel there is a particular article or study that supports abiogenesis, please let us know and I'm sure a couple of us would be happy to look at it (if it isn't behind a paywall). Thanks, everyone, for a lively discussion.Eric Anderson
April 6, 2014
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gpuccio @69:
The problem of “life” could in principle be a little different. I am not sure (and I think that nobody can really be sure) that information is all that is needed for life. The simple fact that life only comes from life is still there. The thought experiment of having all the components from one prokaryote, and still not being able to generate a living cell, is still valid. But there is no doubt that we do need a lot of functional information for life, whatever it is, to be present.
Excellent point. And I should add (in agreement with you): No-one should take away from our regular focus on information, and DNA, and molecular machines, and analogies from human design, that living organisms are just machines. We don't know that. If we ever design a bacterium in the lab and it actually behaves just like a natural living bacterium, then -- perhaps -- we could move in that direction, at least for non-sentient life. But for now, we don't know. It is clear, however, that while an organism may not be just a machine, that an organism has machines, and is physically made up of machines, and uses machines in its function and operation. So we focus on that aspect and try to at least understand the functional, information, and engineering considerations that go into living organisms.Eric Anderson
April 6, 2014
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Mapou @21:
Abiogenesis is not science because it makes no prediction that can be falsified. It is just pure superstition and wishful thinking coming from a bunch of brain-dead religionists who feel threatened by the religions of others.
I'm not sure that is the best way to look at it. I understand what you're saying, at least in terms of the oft-expressed a priori philosophical assumption that underlies the materialistic storyline. But I think abiogenesis makes some general predictions. True, the story is so vague and general that it is hard to pin anything down, but some general outlines can be investigated and tested. For example, abiogenesis argues that (i) unguided, essentially random, chemical reactions will result in a self-replicating molecule, (ii) a self-replicating molecule will undergo mutations that allow it to replicate more and more successfully (meaning, one presumes, faster and faster), or perhaps, it will just get better by chance, (iii) at some point this self-replicating molecule will become a complex of molecules working together, (iv) at some point the molecules will start to form functional molecular structures, or wait, was it information first?, (v) at some point information-rich structures will arise, (vi) eventually a fully autonomous, self-replicating cell will emerge. Sheesh. Even writing the above was an exercise in fantasy literature. But you get my point, there are some predictions/claims that can be tested. And so far (i) has been shown to not happen, (ii) is undemonstrated and chemically problematic, (iii)-(iv) don't make any sense practically, (v) is a joke, and (vi) is wild speculation. So I think abiogenesis does make claims. Claims that, based on our current understanding of chemistry and physics and what is required for functional living systems, have for all practical purposes been falsified.Eric Anderson
April 6, 2014
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AVS @5: I am perfectly happy to recommend that readers look at your posts on the other thread, as they will see that your statements there were little more than a restatement of the abiogenesis storyline. As I said at the time:
Thank you for taking time to lay it out. What you have written, however, is not an explanation, but rather just a restatement of the hypothetical abiogenesis story: start with a few molecules, they react, over time they become more complex, eventually they turn into simple life. Everybody on this site who is critiquing abiogenesis is familiar with the basic outline of the idea. The devil, as they say, is in the details. There are numerous insurmountable problems with the materialistic abiogenesis story.
Then after you said: "I have outlined what I think is a plausible mechanism for the generation of the first living organisms," I pointed out:
No you haven’t. You haven’t outlined any plausible mechanism. You have just restated a vague, detail-free, unspecified, hypothetical just-so story. It isn’t remotely plausible.
In any event, I encourage any who are interested in the exchange to circle over to the other thread, but the reason for creating this thread was to provide a chance to discuss your, and anyone else's, ideas on abiogenesis in more detail. ----- At 5 you wrote:
There is no simple way to test the actual production of what we would call a living cell from abiotic material, in fact it would be near impossible to do so with today’s limited technology. To my knowledge, we currently can only look at the possible chemical interactions that would lead up to the formation of the components of the first cell. I can’t think of a technique, method, or procedure that would allow scientists to look for the production of a single “cell” that we would be able to then test and classify as living. If you have any ideas, let me know.
What technology is needed? There wasn't any technology back when abiogenesis happened. All we need to do is get the right atoms together in our artificial "warm little pond" or mud globule or crystal lattice, and we should see the magic begin. And by "techniques, methods or procedures," presumably you are just talking about the techniques, methods or procedures of setting up an experiment that would mimic natural conditions? Because we can't bring intelligently-guided techniques, methods or procedures into the actual production of the alleged proto-life. What you seem to be saying is that we can't confirm abiogenesis? Quite true. But it isn't due to a lack of lab capabilities or materials or techniques. It is because it doesn't work. We have virtually every chemical component at our disposal and can recreate numerous different lab conditions. It should be very doable to put some chemicals together and see what happens (indeed, many researchers have done so, and the results have been less than impressive). If abiogenesis is true, there really is no excuse for the failure to produce at least a self-replicating molecule or the early sparks of life at this point. Unless, of course, one wants to complain about the lack of time. Ah, yes, time. That ultimate refuge of the materialist. It can always be invoked to "explain" the lack of evidence. No formation of self-replicating molecules in the lab? Not enough time. No organization of information-bearing molecules on their own? Not enough time. No evidence that a bacterium or a fruitfly can turn into something else? Not enough time. So, yes, one could punt due to the lack of time and repose faith in the unseen past eons, deeply obscured by the mists of time, when surely (so the thinking goes) there must have been enough time for all of this wonderful creative work to come about by purely natural processes. But let's not brush aside the dedicated and persistent effort of decades of researchers to produce something -- anything -- even approaching the first hint of life. Let's be willing to consider that it isn't the lack of effort, or the lack of techniques, methods or procedures, or the lack of equipment and technology. Let's be willing to consider that it is because abiogenesis is a failed paradigm, that it doesn't work.Eric Anderson
April 5, 2014
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Why sure billmaz, why not even imagine that humans evolve to the point someday to create universes? Anthropic Principle - God Created The Universe - Michael Strauss PhD. - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvr9q_2sSxs This preceding video, at the 6:49 mark, has a very interesting quote: "So what are the theological implications of all this? Well Barrow and Tipler wrote this book, The Anthropic Cosmological Principle, and they saw the design of the universe. But they're atheists basically, there's no God. And they go through some long arguments to describe why humans are the only intelligent life in the universe. That's what they believe. So they got a problem. If the universe is clearly the product of design, but humans are the only intelligent life in the universe, who creates the universe? So you know what Barrow and Tipler's solution is? It makes perfect sense. Humans evolve to a point some day where they reach back in time and create the universe for themselves. (Audience laughs) Hey these guys are respected scientists. So what brings them to that conclusion? It is because the evidence for design is so overwhelming that if you don't have God you have humans creating the universe back in time for themselves." - Michael Strauss PhD. - Particle Physics Perhaps just a touch of restraint should be in order???bornagain77
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bornagain, you have a great deal of quotes which I have no time to follow but the last one caught my eye. So this Hugh Ross thinks that the human species, or any species, can "only" last 10 million years. Right. So let's see, within roughly 200 years we've learned about quantum theory, the big bang, even multiverses, and have been able to travel to other planets with our robots and put a man on the moon. 200 years! Seeing that knowledge increases exponentially, what do you think the human race will know within, say, a thousand years? How about a million years? Do you think that perhaps we'll be able to travel to other planets? Other solar systems? Other galaxies? And don't tell me about not being able to reach other planets because we can't travel faster than light. I think that within a few million years we'll be able to figure that one out. It's one thing to be able to quote others, it's another to think for oneself.billmaz
April 5, 2014
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also of note: Radio Astronomy reveals privileged position for Earth in relation to the quasar and radio galaxy distributions in the universe: Is there a violation of the Copernican principle in radio sky? - Ashok K. Singal - May 17, 2013 Abstract: Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) observations from the WMAP satellite have shown some unexpected anisotropies (directionally dependent observations), which surprisingly seem to be aligned with the ecliptic\cite {20,16,15}. The latest data from the Planck satellite have confirmed the presence of these anisotropies\cite {17}. Here we report even larger anisotropies in the sky distributions of powerful extended quasars and some other sub-classes of radio galaxies in the 3CRR catalogue, one of the oldest and most intensively studies sample of strong radio sources\cite{21,22,3}. The anisotropies lie about a plane passing through the two equinoxes and the north celestial pole (NCP). We can rule out at a 99.995% confidence level the hypothesis that these asymmetries are merely due to statistical fluctuations. Further, even the distribution of observed radio sizes of quasars and radio galaxies show large systematic differences between these two sky regions. The redshift distribution appear to be very similar in both regions of sky for all sources, which rules out any local effects to be the cause of these anomalies. Two pertinent questions then arise. First, why should there be such large anisotropies present in the sky distribution of some of the most distant discrete sources implying inhomogeneities in the universe at very large scales (covering a fraction of the universe)? What is intriguing even further is why such anisotropies should lie about a great circle decided purely by the orientation of earth's rotation axis and/or the axis of its revolution around the sun? It looks as if these axes have a preferential placement in the larger scheme of things, implying an apparent breakdown of the Copernican principle or its more generalization, cosmological principle, upon which all modern cosmological theories are based upon. http://arxiv.org/pdf/1305.4134.pdf Why is the solar system cosmically aligned? BY Dragan Huterer - 2007 The solar system seems to line up with the largest cosmic features. Is this mere coincidence or a signpost to deeper insights? Caption under figure on page 43: ODD ALIGNMENTS hide within the multipoles of the cosmic microwave background. In this combination of the quadrupole and octopole, a plane bisects the sphere between the largest warm and cool lobes. The ecliptic — the plane of Earth’s orbit projected onto the celestial sphere — is aligned parallel to the plane between the lobes. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~huterer/PRESS/CMB_Huterer.pdf Of note: The preceding article was written before the Planck data (with WMPA & COBE data), but the multipoles were actually verified by Planck. A Large Scale Pattern from Optical Quasar Polarization Vectors - 2013 http://arxiv.org/pdf/1311.6118.pdf Testing the Dipole Modulation Model in CMBR - 2013 http://arxiv.org/pdf/1308.0924.pdf and: We Live At The Right Time In Cosmic History (To see the Cosmic Background Radiation) - Hugh Ross - video http://vimeo.com/31940671 Cosmic GDP crashes 97% as star formation slumps - November 6, 2012 Excerpt: If the measured decline continues, then no more than 5% more stars will form over the remaining history of the cosmos, even if we wait forever. http://phys.org/news/2012-11-cosmic-gdp-star-formation-slumps.html Anthropic Principle: A Precise Plan for Humanity By Hugh Ross Excerpt: Brandon Carter, the British mathematician who coined the term “anthropic principle” (1974), noted the strange inequity of a universe that spends about 15 billion years “preparing” for the existence of a creature that has the potential to survive no more than 10 million years (optimistically).,, Carter and (later) astrophysicists John Barrow and Frank Tipler demonstrated that the inequality exists for virtually any conceivable intelligent species under any conceivable life-support conditions. Roughly 15 billion years represents a minimum preparation time for advanced life: 11 billion toward formation of a stable planetary system, one with the right chemical and physical conditions for primitive life, and four billion more years toward preparation of a planet within that system, one richly layered with the biodeposits necessary for civilized intelligent life. Even this long time and convergence of “just right” conditions reflect miraculous efficiency. Moreover the physical and biological conditions necessary to support an intelligent civilized species do not last indefinitely. They are subject to continuous change: the Sun continues to brighten, Earth’s rotation period lengthens, Earth’s plate tectonic activity declines, and Earth’s atmospheric composition varies. In just 10 million years or less, Earth will lose its ability to sustain human life. In fact, this estimate of the human habitability time window may be grossly optimistic. In all likelihood, a nearby supernova eruption, a climatic perturbation, a social or environmental upheaval, or the genetic accumulation of negative mutations will doom the species to extinction sometime sooner than twenty thousand years from now. http://christiangodblog.blogspot.com/2006_12_01_archive.html Hugh Ross - The Anthropic Principle and Anthropic Inequality - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8494065 At the 38:10 minute mark of the following video, Dr. Huterer speaks of the 'why right now? coincidence problem' for dark matter and visible matter: Dragan Huterer - 'coincidence problem' - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qTJc1Y7duM#t=2290bornagain77
April 5, 2014
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also of note: Radio Astronomy reveals privileged position for Earth in relation to the quasar and radio galaxy distributions in the universe: Is there a violation of the Copernican principle in radio sky? - Ashok K. Singal - May 17, 2013 Abstract: Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) observations from the WMAP satellite have shown some unexpected anisotropies (directionally dependent observations), which surprisingly seem to be aligned with the ecliptic\cite {20,16,15}. The latest data from the Planck satellite have confirmed the presence of these anisotropies\cite {17}. Here we report even larger anisotropies in the sky distributions of powerful extended quasars and some other sub-classes of radio galaxies in the 3CRR catalogue, one of the oldest and most intensively studies sample of strong radio sources\cite{21,22,3}. The anisotropies lie about a plane passing through the two equinoxes and the north celestial pole (NCP). We can rule out at a 99.995% confidence level the hypothesis that these asymmetries are merely due to statistical fluctuations. Further, even the distribution of observed radio sizes of quasars and radio galaxies show large systematic differences between these two sky regions. The redshift distribution appear to be very similar in both regions of sky for all sources, which rules out any local effects to be the cause of these anomalies. Two pertinent questions then arise. First, why should there be such large anisotropies present in the sky distribution of some of the most distant discrete sources implying inhomogeneities in the universe at very large scales (covering a fraction of the universe)? What is intriguing even further is why such anisotropies should lie about a great circle decided purely by the orientation of earth's rotation axis and/or the axis of its revolution around the sun? It looks as if these axes have a preferential placement in the larger scheme of things, implying an apparent breakdown of the Copernican principle or its more generalization, cosmological principle, upon which all modern cosmological theories are based upon. http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.4134 http://arxiv.org/pdf/1305.4134.pdf Why is the solar system cosmically aligned? BY Dragan Huterer - 2007 The solar system seems to line up with the largest cosmic features. Is this mere coincidence or a signpost to deeper insights? Caption under figure on page 43: ODD ALIGNMENTS hide within the multipoles of the cosmic microwave background. In this combination of the quadrupole and octopole, a plane bisects the sphere between the largest warm and cool lobes. The ecliptic — the plane of Earth’s orbit projected onto the celestial sphere — is aligned parallel to the plane between the lobes. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~huterer/PRESS/CMB_Huterer.pdf Of note: The preceding article was written before the Planck data (with WMPA & COBE data), but the multipoles were actually verified by Planck. A Large Scale Pattern from Optical Quasar Polarization Vectors - 2013 http://arxiv.org/pdf/1311.6118.pdf Testing the Dipole Modulation Model in CMBR - 2013 http://arxiv.org/pdf/1308.0924.pdf and: We Live At The Right Time In Cosmic History (To see the Cosmic Background Radiation) - Hugh Ross - video http://vimeo.com/31940671 Cosmic GDP crashes 97% as star formation slumps - November 6, 2012 Excerpt: If the measured decline continues, then no more than 5% more stars will form over the remaining history of the cosmos, even if we wait forever. http://phys.org/news/2012-11-cosmic-gdp-star-formation-slumps.html Anthropic Principle: A Precise Plan for Humanity By Hugh Ross Excerpt: Brandon Carter, the British mathematician who coined the term “anthropic principle” (1974), noted the strange inequity of a universe that spends about 15 billion years “preparing” for the existence of a creature that has the potential to survive no more than 10 million years (optimistically).,, Carter and (later) astrophysicists John Barrow and Frank Tipler demonstrated that the inequality exists for virtually any conceivable intelligent species under any conceivable life-support conditions. Roughly 15 billion years represents a minimum preparation time for advanced life: 11 billion toward formation of a stable planetary system, one with the right chemical and physical conditions for primitive life, and four billion more years toward preparation of a planet within that system, one richly layered with the biodeposits necessary for civilized intelligent life. Even this long time and convergence of “just right” conditions reflect miraculous efficiency. Moreover the physical and biological conditions necessary to support an intelligent civilized species do not last indefinitely. They are subject to continuous change: the Sun continues to brighten, Earth’s rotation period lengthens, Earth’s plate tectonic activity declines, and Earth’s atmospheric composition varies. In just 10 million years or less, Earth will lose its ability to sustain human life. In fact, this estimate of the human habitability time window may be grossly optimistic. In all likelihood, a nearby supernova eruption, a climatic perturbation, a social or environmental upheaval, or the genetic accumulation of negative mutations will doom the species to extinction sometime sooner than twenty thousand years from now. http://christiangodblog.blogspot.com/2006_12_01_archive.html Hugh Ross - The Anthropic Principle and Anthropic Inequality - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8494065 At the 38:10 minute mark of the following video, Dr. Huterer speaks of the 'why right now? coincidence problem' for dark matter and visible matter: Dragan Huterer - 'coincidence problem' - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qTJc1Y7duM#t=2290bornagain77
April 5, 2014
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Alleged contradictions are addressed here:
Alleged Contradictions in the Gospels by Dr. Timothy McGrew - lecture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJizWvoGCIg
Compared to other ancient texts, nothing else is even in the same ballpark as the bible is as to reliability:
How Reliable Is the New Testament? – Dr. Daniel Wallace (16:30 minute mark of video “The New Testament has an ‘embarrassment of riches’ compared to other ancient texts”) – video (Dr. Wallace publicly debated Bart Ehrman 3 times) http://www.watermark.org/media/how-badly-did-the-early-scribes-corrupt-the-new-testament/2305/
Further notes of interest:
Accuracy Of The Bible - Feeding 5000 - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6745194 Undesigned Coincidences (evidence for the historicity of the Gospels) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGVLeC5HbSQ
Verse and Music:
Isaiah 45:18-19 For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens, who is God, who formed the earth and made it, who established it, who did not create it in vain, who formed it to be inhabited: “I am the Lord, and there is no other. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth; I did not say to the seed of Jacob, ‘seek me in vain’; I, the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.” Casting Crowns - The Word Is Alive - Live http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9itgOBAxSc
bornagain77
April 5, 2014
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billmaz, you state
"As to any empirical evidence about other life forms in the universe, we have only statistics. If there are billions of planets in the “goldilocks” zone of planetary distance from suns, the “evidence,” such as it is for now, is that there is a very high probability of intelligent life forms on many other planets. I think most planetary scientists would agree with that statement."
not to deflate your unrestrained imagination in UFOs and such, but the 'statistics' in favor of your preferred belief as to how you want God to act in this universe are not as hopeful as you have misled yourself to believe,,,,,
Linked from Appendix C from Dr. Ross's book, 'Why the Universe Is the Way It Is'; Probability for occurrence of all 816 parameters approx. 10^-1333 dependency factors estimate approx. 10^324 longevity requirements estimate approx. 10^45 Probability for occurrence of all 816 parameters ? 10^-1054 Maximum possible number of life support bodies in observable universe approx. 10^22 Thus, less than 1 chance in 10^1032 exists that even one such life-support body would occur anywhere in the universe without invoking divine miracles. http://www.reasons.org/files/compendium/compendium_part3.pdf Hugh Ross - Evidence For Intelligent Design Is Everywhere (10^-1054) - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4347236 "If some god-like being could be given the opportunity to plan a sequence of events with the expressed goal of duplicating our 'Garden of Eden', that power would face a formidable task. With the best of intentions but limited by natural laws and materials it is unlikely that Earth could ever be truly replicated. Too many processes in its formation involve sheer luck. Earth-like planets could certainly be made, but each would differ in critical ways. This is well illustrated by the fantastic variety of planets and satellites (moons) that formed in our solar system. They all started with similar building materials, but the final products are vastly different from each other . . . . The physical events that led to the formation and evolution of the physical Earth required an intricate set of nearly irreproducible circumstances." Peter B. Ward and Donald Brownlee, Rare Earth: Why Complex Life is Uncommon in the Universe (New York: Copernicus, 2000) Compositions of Extrasolar Planets - July 2010 Excerpt: ,,,the presumption that extrasolar terrestrial planets will consistently manifest Earth-like chemical compositions is incorrect. Instead, the simulations revealed “a wide variety of resulting planetary compositions. http://www.reasons.org/compositions-extrasolar-planets
even the chemical composition of Mars, which is widely imagined to be similar to the Earth's chemical composition, is not fit for supporting life:
Early Mars Water Was Salty, Toxic Stew – 2008 Excerpt: But data from the rover Opportunity is already suggesting that water on early Mars billions of years ago may have been fit for pickling—not supporting—life. That’s because the water was thick with salt and other minerals, making it far too briny for life as we know it, according to a new study. Nicholas Tosca of Harvard University and colleagues studied mineral clues from the surface of Mars sent back by the rover and used computers to turn back the clock. “Our sense has been that while Mars is a lousy environment for supporting life today, long ago it might have more closely resembled Earth,” said Andrew Knoll, a study co-author also from Harvard. But instead the team found that the soil’s mineral content would have made that liquid a salty, toxic stew. “No matter how far back we peer into Mars’s history, we may never see a point at which the planet really looked like Earth,” Knoll said. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/05/080529-mars-salty.html
as to this comment of yours billmaz:
"I don’t need quotes from scripture (which are written by men, and perhaps a woman, a hundred or so years after the fact and have untold contradictions)"
It might interest you to know:
Isaiah 53 and the Dead Sea Scrolls - verified prophecy before the birth of Christ http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/dead-sea-scrolls-2.htm "In Extraordinary ways, modern archaeology has affirmed the historical core of the Old and New testaments - corroborating key points of the stories of Israel's patriarchs, the Exodus, the Davidic monarchy, and the life and times of Jesus." Jeffery Sheler - 'Is The Bible True', U.S. News and World Report, Oct. 25th, 1999, pg.52 The Physical Ashen Remains Of Sodom and Gomorrah - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwTVFk1HK3Y
This is a gem of a quote from a Bible skeptic who thought it unfair to use the Bible as a guide in archeology since it was sure to lead to successful searches,,,::
‘he knew immediately that, proceeding in this way (using the Bible as a guide), “she would certainly find that building” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/materialism-vs-science-in-archaeology-and-the-difference-it-makes/
bornagain77
April 5, 2014
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Greetings Billmaz at 91
I don’t need to envision a god who constantly tinkers with life, sometimes here, sometimes there, but not consistently and certainly not always for man’s welfare. It doesn’t make inherent sense to me. You might say it doesn’t have to make sense to me, God does what He wants. But, like Einstein was so surprised to observe, the universe seems to make sense. Occasional intervention by God doesn’t.
Not everyone believes that the designer constantly (emphasis mine) tinkers with life. And even if the Creator (or creators, whatever anyone believes) intervenes, why is it a problem? Why would anyone expect an entity who has a will and thoughts not to intervene when the entity sees fit? Your thoughts are basically philosophical. And I do not agree with such logic as it is a faulty presupposition.seventrees
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Belief in God, since He cannot be proven to exist (therefore, a belief) is personal. Therefore, my opinion of what and who God is, as well as yours, is just as valid as Darwin's. I don't need quotes from scripture (which are written by men, and perhaps a woman, a hundred or so years after the fact and have untold contradictions). My concept of God has evolved, which I suggest is a good thing. I don't need to believe in the Biblical story of God in order to think there is a higher being. And my 'conceding' anything is an inflammatory word. I don't remember us having any discussion about my denying a higher power. As to any empirical evidence about other life forms in the universe, we have only statistics. If there are billions of planets in the "goldilocks" zone of planetary distance from suns, the "evidence," such as it is for now, is that there is a very high probability of intelligent life forms on many other planets. I think most planetary scientists would agree with that statement. My main question, which you didn't address, is why are certain theists, certainly not all, so much against evolution? Why can't evolution, which can be viewed as just another part of 'nature's laws,' be part of God's laws? What's the theological problem? Even the Pope, as well as the Anglican church, refused to deny evolution. You also refused to address my problem with the idea of a god interfering with His creation at every little step. If we are all created in His image, then rational thought should certainly be a part of what we inherited from Him. Therefore Darwin's #1 contradicts that point.billmaz
April 5, 2014
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billmaz, it is interesting that you concede that the empirical evidence from quantum mechanics itself is compelling to the proposition that there is a God (which it is), but then, instead of arguing from empirical evidence for other life in the universe (which is slim to none), you effortlessly switch gears and argue from your own personal Deistic/Theistic beliefs as to how you think God ought to act.,,, Not to be too condescending, but if I wanted a argument from someone else as to their personal druthers about how God should and should not act in this universe, I would do just as well reading Darwin's 'Origin' and not questioning the unwarranted Theistic premises based therein:
Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin's Use of Theology in the Origin of Species - May 2011 Excerpt: The Origin supplies abundant evidence of theology in action; as Dilley observes: I have argued that, in the first edition of the Origin, Darwin drew upon at least the following positiva theological claims in his case for descent with modification (and against special creation): 1. Human begins are not justfied in believing that God creates in ways analogous to the intellectual powers of the human mind. 2. A God who is free to create as He wishes would create new biological limbs de novo rather than from a common pattern. 3. A respectable deity would create biological structures in accord with a human conception of the 'simplest mode' to accomplish the functions of these structures. 4. God would only create the minimum structure required for a given part's function. 5. God does not provide false empirical information about the origins of organisms. 6. God impressed the laws of nature on matter. 7. God directly created the first 'primordial' life. 8. God did not perform miracles within organic history subsequent to the creation of the first life. 9. A 'distant' God is not morally culpable for natural pain and suffering. 10. The God of special creation, who allegedly performed miracles in organic history, is not plausible given the presence of natural pain and suffering. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html Darwin’s objection to design inferences were theological. And in addition, Darwin overlooked many theological considerations in order to focus on the one. His one consideration was his assumption about what a god would or wouldn’t do. The considerations he overlooked are too numerous to mention here, but here’s a few: 1) God’s purpose in creation (according to scripture) is more than simply to set nature and evolution in motion, but to bring about a spiritual relationship between sentient beings (humans) with nature, other humans, and with God. Two books might help here, one is Francis Schaeffer’s “The God Who is There,” where he talks about the planes of human relationships (horizontal and vertical), and “The End of Christianity.” 2) The fall and the presence of human sin. The present conditions of nature in light of the fall – “the Earth groans,” etc… 3) General revelation as in nature manifesting the attributes of God. 4) Special revelation as in Scripture manifesting the attributes and the purposes of God in creation. 5) The incarnation of Christ in the world in line with God’s purposes in creation. 6) Future prophetic prophecies, which point to the fulfillment of God’s purposes in creation. All of these things, and many others, Darwin overlooked in order to posit a theological objection to design as if God was finished with all his purposes in creation. Darwin was quite the theological ignoramus in light of all these, and hundreds of other theological considerations. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/on-the-vastness-of-the-universe/comment-page-2/#comment-362918
bornagain77
April 5, 2014
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AVS,
I’ve already given my outline of the basic concepts of chemical evolution and the formation of the first living organisms
Yes, you have. You’ve argued that sunlight, agitation, and a natural membrane are the key insights to the creation of the first living organism – which you describe as inevitable. In contrast, I have argued that you’ve thus far failed to address any of the critical material conditions required to organize a living cell. And while respected origin of life researchers write about the primacy of a functional information system, it appears you are determined to avoid any discussion whatsoever of such systems. This represents something of an intellectual contradiction on your part. On the one hand, you personally want nothing to do with explaining the rise of the critical translation apparatus (indeed you never mention it in your origins ideas), then on the other hand you argue (with an entirely misplaced, out-of-touch, unnecessary, condescending style) that virtually everything in the cell is the direct result of the translation of informational scripts and sequences. Of course, none of this is surprising. The translation apparatus is at the very center of the design argument, which is why you refuse to address it. You seem to intuitively know if you enter into a genuine conversation about what is vital to cellular organization, your ideas will come up completely empty – which they are. In response, you position this situation as ID proponents “moving the goalposts” if they expect your ideas to address these critical aspects of organizing the cell. It’s all rather embarrassing for you, which I suspect is the reason you fog every conversation with bigotry and disdain.Upright BiPed
April 5, 2014
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I agree with much of what bornagain quotes about quantum physics and matter. Andre Linde, professor of physics at Stanford and one of the originators of the multiverse model and eternal inflation, even goes so far as to arrive at the conclusion of an eternal Mind or consciousness as the ultimate force of the universe. The problem I have is mixing up evolution and abiogenesis with first order questions of the origin of the universe. For the life of me, even after all these years, I still don't quite understand the enmity against evolution and abiogenesis from those who believe in God (as I do). Does it come from the Biblical statements that God created man in His image? Surely one doesn't take that literally. God doesn't need a body. If we find intelligent life on other planets, which we surely must since there are billions and billions of them, does one think they'll look like us? If not, does one think that they are not 'God's creatures?' I have no problem in envisioning a god who created the forces of the universe and then let the universe unfold to eventually create intelligent beings, in all their forms, on billions of planets and in multiple universes. I don't need to envision a god who constantly tinkers with life, sometimes here, sometimes there, but not consistently and certainly not always for man's welfare. It doesn't make inherent sense to me. You might say it doesn't have to make sense to me, God does what He wants. But, like Einstein was so surprised to observe, the universe seems to make sense. Occasional intervention by God doesn't.billmaz
April 5, 2014
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WJM
Get your own quantum states! Tune your own physics!
LOL, For some reason that quip reminds me of Plantinga's old solipsist jokes that he warms audiences with:
Solipsist Humor from Plantinga ,,,At a recent Lecture I attended by Philosopher Alvin Plantinga, he warmed up the crowd with a few solipsist jokes.,,, FYI, solipsism is the rather odd idea that there is only one individual in the universe and that you are it. Everyone else is just a figment of your imagination. 1. British philosopher Bertrand Russell was a solipsist for a time (why does that not surprise me?), and he once received a letter from a woman who found his arguments very convincing. Well, I suppose it’s not so hard to convince a figment of your imagination that your arguments are brilliant. Anyway, the woman commented in her letter that his description of solipsism made a lot of sense and that, “I’m surprised there aren't more of us.” 2. Plantinga also told of an accomplished academic who was a well-known solipsist (I forget the guys name). And Plantinga thought it would be fun to meet a real life solipsist, so he went to visit him. He was treated fairly well considering he was only figment. I mean, it’s not a given that a solipsist would feel the need to be polite to his imaginary friends. After a brief conversation, Plantinga left and on the way out one of the man’s assistants said, “We take good care of the professor because when he goes we all go.” http://www.fellowtravelerblog.com/2011/05/13/solipsist-humor-from-plantinga/
WJM, I'm pretty sure you know that Plantinga considers Theism a 'properly basic belief':
Another interesting argument comes from the leading philosopher and Christian, Alvin Plantinga—he asked, what evidence does anyone have for the existence of other people’s minds? He argued cogently that the evidence for God is just as good as the evidence for other minds; and conversely, if there isn’t any evidence for God, then there is also no evidence that other minds exist—see God and Other Minds, Cornell University Press, repr. 1990. http://creation.com/atheism-is-more-rational Belief in God is a Properly Basic Belief (Alvin Plantinga) - video http://www.closertotruth.com/video-profile/Arguments-About-God-Alvin-Plantinga-/1261
Of related note, it is interesting to see how this 'properly basic belief' of 'the evidence for God is just as good as the evidence for other minds' played out in quantum mechanics with Leggett's Inequality:
Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 (Leggett's Inequality: Verified to 80 orders of magnitude) http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html
Music:
You Won’t Let Go - Michael W. Smith http://myktis.com/songs/you-wont-let-go/
bornagain77
April 5, 2014
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BA77: Get your own quantum states! Tune your own physics!William J Murray
April 5, 2014
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Joe @77:
AVS/ PMS is an ignorant coward who doesn’t understand science.
Bravo, Joe. The gutless butt kissers in the Darwinian/materialist and anti-God camp can't stand it when they get no respect. It's like holy water to a vampire. Elitism promotes stupidity because the elite have a false sense of superiority. No rest for the wicked. LOL. To Eric: Please do not delete the comments in this thread.Mapou
April 5, 2014
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The Return of the God Hypothesis - Stephen Meyer Abstract: Historian of science Frederic Burnham has stated that the God hypothesis is now a more respectable hypothesis than at any time in the last one hundred years. This essay explores recent evidence from cosmology, physics, and biology, which provides epistemological support, though not proof, for belief in God as conceived by a theistic worldview. It develops a notion of epistemological support based upon explanatory power, rather than just deductive entailment. It also evaluates the explanatory power of theism and its main metaphysical competitors with respect to several classes of scientific evidence. The conclusion follows that theism explains a wide ensemble of metaphysically-significant evidences more adequately and comprehensively than other major worldviews or metaphysical systems. Thus, unlike much recent scholarship that characterizes science as either conflicting with theistic belief or entirely neutral with respect to it, this essay concludes that scientific evidence actually supports such belief. http://www.arn.org/docs/meyer/sm_returnofgod.pdf The Return of the God Hypothesis - Stephen Meyer - video lecture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueEpWIfXao8bornagain77
April 5, 2014
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Science “excludes” the existence of a god. That could still make sense. But why? That is more interesting: “because it has no way of testing the supernatural”.
The supernatural will always be a hypothesis. It must be that way. It it were certainty one way or the other, then life as we know it would be completely different and meaningless. One way to get at this hypothesis is to take La Place's approach to God along with LaGrange's response:
Napoleon to Laplace - 'M. Laplace, they tell me you have written this large book on the system of the universe, and have never even mentioned its Creator.' Laplace, answered bluntly, Je n'avais pas besoin de cette hypothèse-là. ("I had no need of that hypothesis.") Napoleon, greatly amused, told this reply to Lagrange, who exclaimed, Ah! c'est une belle hypothèse; ça explique beaucoup de choses. ("Ah, it is a fine hypothesis; it explains many things.")
Two centuries later we are at the same point. Science can indeed explain many things but it is also incredibly silent on others. So the creator hypothesis has support at one level and non-support at another level. That is the way it will always be because it was designed that way.jerry
April 5, 2014
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