Paul Davies on the gap between life and non-life

_{Denyse O'Leary

February 14, 2023

Origin Of Life}

Share: Facebook; Twitter; LinkedIn; Flipboard; Print; Email

It’s a big one. Theoretical physicist, cosmologist and astrobiologist Paul Davies talks to Robert Lawrence Kuhn at Closer to Truth about the conundrums: “What is life and how did it arise from non-life? Is it as simple as the random organization of complex chemicals on the early Earth? What are the pathways whereby chemicals turned into life? Is life inevitable? Or extremely rare? What’s remarkable is how little we know. ”

A reader notes that Davies says at 37m30s: “What life makes is consistent with physics and chemistry, but is not dictated by physics and chemistry.” Well, by a process of elimination, doesn’t that leave information? Design? And how are things designed without intelligence? At this point, one can only say, Keep talking.

Comments

Origenes Well, I can only repeat the Darwinian explanation of what is happening as mutant bacteria colonize areas unavailable to non-mutants. Can any ID proponent explain the observed process more parsimoniously using ID "theory"?Alan Fox_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
11:25 AM
11
11
25
AM
PDT}

Querius @313
Could you explain how unguided evolution is hampered by natural selection?
I make my point in #278.Origenes_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
11:24 AM
11
11
24
AM
PDT}

Bornagain77 @304,
AF was shown that antibiotic resistance is the result of loss of function adaptations, and also that it is ancient, i.e. that it is ‘hard wired’ into bacteria, and what does he do? Ignores the empirical evidence and continues to act as if antibiotic resistance is the type of evidence he needs to demonstrate the feasibility of evolution.
Of course, because AF isn't listening.
As AF himself gives witness to, empirical evidence simply doesn’t matter to hard-core Darwinists. Whatever they are doing, Darwinists certainly are not ‘doing science’.
This is due to ideological poisoning that results in "science fantasy." Darwinism is also racist and colonialist at its core, which doesn't seem to bother them either. This is why I'm always saying not to waste your time on them. -QQuerius_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
11:24 AM
11
11
24
AM
PDT}

Origenes @286,
I agree with you and others who point out that things are not “random.” However, the point I am trying to make is that, granted random mutations, unguided evolution performs far worse than a blind search because it is hampered — not aided — by natural selection. IOWs the whole Darwinian concept makes no sense at all.
Could you explain how unguided evolution is hampered by natural selection? -QQuerius_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
11:10 AM
11
11
10
AM
PDT}

And, naturally, you won’t get an answer
I provided an answer. It’s straightforward and not hard to understand. There’s no search involved. The issue has always been that the end result is trivial. That is the main issue. It leads no where. Interesting that no one is commenting on the OP/video where the researchers are claiming they have the answers.jerry_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
11:10 AM
11
11
10
AM
PDT}

Whistler @284,
So, here is my question again: if unguided evolution is not a search, tell me what it is and give me a model of it. A cell is a far more advanced version of an Automatic pilot. Automatic pilots consist of four major elements:
And, naturally, you won’t get an answer. Darwinists believe unguided evolution is functionally equivalent to a search, which is why they often adopt Lamarckian terms or anthropomorphic descriptions. And of course, the biological equivalent of automatic pilots MUSTA evolved one element at a time, since they cannot foresee/anticipate the development of the other three elements. -QQuerius_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
11:04 AM
11
11
04
AM
PDT}

That makes no sense
of course it makes sense. For example: is a piece of debris such as an asteroid orbiting the sun an example of design? No! But a satellite orbiting the sun also due to gravity an example of design. Of course it is. Both are cause and effect scenarios. #27 is a simplified model/explanation of an ecology going through changes. Are the end result of all these changes what we call natural selection? Yes, they are and all are determined. https://uncommondescent.com/origin-of-life/paul-davies-on-the-gap-between-life-and-non-life/#comment-775881jerry_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
10:47 AM
10
10
47
AM
PDT}

Alan Fox
Well, for a start, I don’t think biological evolution is unguided. The biological niche acts as a designer, as seen in the giant petri dish model I linked to above.
Nonsense. The biological niche (the giant petri dish) did not design anything, instead, in specific areas, it eliminates bacteria that did not undergo certain adaptive loss of function (thank you BA77) mutations. Put differently, in specific areas only those bacteria are untouched by natural elimination (the grim reaper), that underwent certain adaptive loss of function mutations.Origenes_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
10:46 AM
10
10
46
AM
PDT}

Ba77 at 304, Alan Fox, and others here, believe they have no choice but to promote evolution. Why? ID represents a 'divine foot' in the door. The horrible possibility, now shown to be true, that living things are designed. Once too many people start realizing that attempts to promote what has clearly been shown to be a failed idea, they will realize that they are, in fact, designed. Though ID, as science, does not identify the designer, the average person, and the Catholic Church, will immediately connect the unnamed designer to God. This will result in a reality too terrible to contemplate for some: God returns to science and Darwinism is overthrown. That is what Alan Fox and some others here are trying to prevent. If there is a large increase in religious belief, especially Christianity, It would, according to some, ruin everything for millions of people. They might abandon secularism and turn to religion or realize that if there is a designer, and God is the designer, then they are responsible for their actions to God.relatd_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
10:42 AM
10
10
42
AM
PDT}

Alan Fox doesn’t understand the theory he promotes.
It's true I haven't invested much effort in trying to explain my understanding of the process of evolution here at UD. But I'm more interested in hearing about "Intelligent Design" hypotheses and how to test them.
There is an end result and it’s determined by the boundary conditions but that is not a design. Unless one wants to say every effect in a cause and effect scenario is designed.
That makes no sense.
See #27.
I read through your comment at #27. I found nothing in that comment I could make sense of. At least I agree with Origenes on that.Alan Fox_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
10:38 AM
10
10
38
AM
PDT}

Alan Fox doesn’t understand the theory he promotes. There is an end result and it’s determined by the boundary conditions but that is not a design, necessarily. Unless one wants to say every effect in a cause and effect scenario is designed. See #27. Also, the bacteria experiment was neither an organized search or an example of Evolution. Its basic genetics due to population variation. Mutations also possibly caused a new resistant strain to become dominant but it was most likely already there with its genetic makeup. If it wasn’t already there, the bacteria would have probably died out.jerry_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
10:25 AM
10
10
25
AM
PDT}

I'm working on a book idea. "Selling Evolution: How 1950s used car salesman techniques were used to sell evolution to a new generation." Back in 1967, a book titled The Naked Ape appeared. Baloney then and baloney now. https://www.amazon.com/Naked-Ape-Zoologists-Study-Animal/dp/0385334303 From this book's description: "The Naked Ape takes its place alongside Darwin’s Origin of the Species, presenting man not as a fallen angel, but as a risen ape, remarkable in his resilience, energy and imagination, yet an animal nonetheless, in danger of forgetting his origins." In danger of forgetting God made him.relatd_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
10:24 AM
10
10
24
AM
PDT}

AF was shown that antibiotic resistance is the result of loss of function adaptations, and also that it is ancient, i.e. that it is 'hard wired' into bacteria, and what does he do? Ignores the empirical evidence and continues to act as if antibiotic resistance is the type of evidence he needs to demonstrate the feasibility of evolution. As AF himself gives witness to, empirical evidence simply doesn't matter to hard-core Darwinists. Whatever they are doing, Darwinists certainly are not 'doing science'.bornagain77_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
10:21 AM
10
10
21
AM
PDT}

"The biological niche acts as a designer" So there IS Design in Nature. ID'ers correct all along. Andrewasauber_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
10:17 AM
10
10
17
AM
PDT}

AF at 301, "The biological niche acts as a designer..." Designer of what? Apes to humans?relatd_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
10:08 AM
10
10
08
AM
PDT}

If unguided evolution is not a search, tell me what it is and give me a model of it.
Well, for a start, I don't think biological evolution is unguided. The biological niche acts as a designer, as seen in the giant petri dish model I linked to above.Alan Fox_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
10:02 AM
10
10
02
AM
PDT}

Alan Fox
There is no search in that experiment.
If unguided evolution is not a search, tell me what it is and give me a model of it.Origenes_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
09:50 AM
9
09
50
AM
PDT}

You just proved my point, this video documents a search for antibiotic resistance.
There is no search in that experiment.Alan Fox_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
09:46 AM
9
09
46
AM
PDT}

AF references this video: "The Evolution of Bacteria on a “Mega-Plate” Petri Dish" AF is either purposely selling, or he has been sold, snake oil,,
Over time, you see new clones of resistant bacteria emerge and grow onto the higher concentrations of antibiotic and eventually spread across the plate.,, Second, antibiotic resistance is nearly always the result of a functional loss on the part of the mutant bacteria. Bacteria lose the ability to take up or metabolize the antibiotic, which renders then resistant to the toxicity of the antibiotic. Thus, the evolutionary change demonstrated in the experiment is the loss, not the gain, of function. Of course, no one doubts that mutations change bacterial populations by impairing function. The radical Darwinian claim is that mutations and genetic recombination accrued by natural selection are responsible for all of the adaptive gain in function in living things. This experiment demonstrates the opposite: the mutations accrue by artificial selection and represent loss of function. https://evolutionnews.org/2016/09/the_low_bar_of/ Dr. Behe isn’t losing any sleep. Antibiotic-resistant bacteria demonstrate evolution by breaking stuff — not by building it and certainly not by creating complex new biological information. On the contrary, information is lost. In other words, says Behe, what we have here is devolution, not evolution, the opposite of what needs to be explained by Darwinian theory. https://evolutionnews.org/2016/09/michael_behe_is/ List Of Degraded Molecular Abilities Of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria: Table 1 excerpt: Actinonin - Loss of enzyme activity Ampicillin - SOS response halting cell division Azithromycin - Loss of a regulatory protein Chloramphenicol - Reduced formation of a porin or a regulatory protein Ciprofloxacin - Loss of a porin or loss of a regulatory protein Erythromycin - Reduced affinity to 23S rRNA or loss of a regulatory protein Fluoroquinolones - Loss of affinity to gyrase Imioenem - Reduced formation of a porin Kanamycin - Reduced formation of a transport protein Nalidixic Acid - Loss or inactivation of a regulatory protein Rifampin - Loss of affinity to RNA polymerase Streptomycin - Reduced affinity to 16S rRNA or reduction of transport activity Tetracycline - Reduced formation of a porin or a regulatory protein Zittermicin A - Loss of proton motive force http://www.trueorigin.org/bacteria01.asp Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - 'The Fitness Test' - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYaU4moNEBU Antibiotic resistance is ancient - September 2011 Excerpt: Here we report targeted metagenomic analyses of rigorously authenticated ancient DNA from 30,000-year-old Beringian permafrost sediments and the identification of a highly diverse collection of genes encoding resistance to ?-lactam, tetracycline and glycopeptide antibiotics. Structure and function studies on the complete vancomycin resistance element VanA confirmed its similarity to modern variants. These results show conclusively that antibiotic resistance is a natural phenomenon that predates the modern selective pressure of clinical antibiotic use. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v477/n7365/full/nature10388.html?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20110922 (Ancient) Cave bacteria resistant to antibiotics - April 2012 Excerpt: Antibiotic-resistant bacteria cut off from the outside world for more than four million years have been found in a deep cave. The discovery is surprising because drug resistance is widely believed to be the result of too much treatment.,,, “Our study shows that antibiotic resistance is hard-wired into bacteria. It could be billions of years old, but we have only been trying to understand it for the last 70 years,” said Dr Gerry Wright, from McMaster University in Canada, who has analysed the microbes. http://www.scotsman.com/news/health/cave-bacteria-resistant-to-antibiotics-1-2229183# Antibiotic resistance genes are essentially everywhere - May 8, 2014 Excerpt: The largest metagenomic search for antibiotic resistance genes in the DNA sequences of microbial communities from around the globe has found that bacteria carrying those vexing genes turn up everywhere in nature that scientists look for them,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/05/140508121347.htm
bornagain77_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
09:33 AM
9
09
33
AM
PDT}

Alan Fox
Ori: If unguided evolution is not a search, tell me what it is and give me a model of it.
AF: Here’s a beautiful experiment. https://youtu.be/plVk4NVIUh8
You just proved my point, this video documents a search for antibiotic resistance.Origenes_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
09:31 AM
9
09
31
AM
PDT}

AF at 293, OK. Bacteria never turn into something else. They remain bacteria. They do not sprout legs and turn into dinosaurs. Imagine a very large group of humans being exposed to a disease or toxic chemical. Except we have the already existing ability to swap genetic material through Horizontal Gene Transfer. Bacteria have this ability. Through the exchange of genetic material, some bacteria will survive. However, if the toxic chemical is too strong, everyone dies. It's like saying we should stop using bleach to disinfect surfaces because bacteria are now immune to bleach.relatd_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
09:23 AM
9
09
23
AM
PDT}

"give me a model of it." “there exists no model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. According to our current understanding, there never will be.,,,” - Robert Marks
Top Ten Questions and Objections to ‘Introduction to Evolutionary Informatics’ – Robert J. Marks II – June 12, 2017 Excerpt: “There exists no model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. Hard sciences are built on foundations of mathematics or definitive simulations. Examples include electromagnetics, Newtonian mechanics, geophysics, relativity, thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, optics, and many areas in biology. Those hoping to establish Darwinian evolution as a hard science with a model have either failed or inadvertently cheated. These models contain guidance mechanisms to land the airplane squarely on the target runway despite stochastic wind gusts. Not only can the guiding assistance be specifically identified in each proposed evolution model, its contribution to the success can be measured, in bits, as active information.,,,”,,, “there exists no model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. According to our current understanding, there never will be.,,,” https://evolutionnews.org/2017/06/top-ten-questions-and-objections-to-introduction-to-evolutionary-informatics/ Robert Jackson Marks II is an American electrical engineer. His contributions include the Zhao-Atlas-Marks (ZAM) time-frequency distribution in the field of signal processing,[1] the Cheung–Marks theorem[2] in Shannon sampling theory and the Papoulis-Marks-Cheung (PMC) approach in multidimensional sampling.[3] He was instrumental in the defining of the field of computational intelligence and co-edited the first book using computational intelligence in the title.[4][5] – per wikipedia
bornagain77_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
09:18 AM
9
09
18
AM
PDT}

If unguided evolution is not a search, tell me what it is and give me a model of it.
Done above but you said you won’t read. That’s OK. Maybe someone else can explain it to him. Aside: none of the anti ID people seem to have a clue either. It’s basic genetics fully accepted by ID. If you disagree, explain why.jerry_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
09:11 AM
9
09
11
AM
PDT}

If unguided evolution is not a search, tell me what it is and give me a model of it.
Here's a beautiful experiment. https://youtu.be/plVk4NVIUh8Alan Fox_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
09:10 AM
9
09
10
AM
PDT}

Sandy @276,
What you call it “random” actually is an error in the system. Darwinists have been controlling the language in the last 80 years and ID proponents fell into the trap by using those terms .
I agree that mutations are errors in a phenomenally complex system. I think Darwinists fell into their own trap. The word “random” is tricky, because unpredictable is not the same thing as mathematically random. But basically, Darwinists claim the equivalent of shooting bullets into a jet engine will eventually improve the jet engine. As “proof” of this fantasy, they point to the bullet holes in the housing that didn’t result in the engine exploding, thus, they claim that ALL previous bullets MUSTA somehow improved the jet engine. MUSTA is the name of one of their gods of the gaps.
It’s impossible to know if a mutation is random without knowing EVERYTHING about the cell.
What’s an example of a non-random mutation? Epigenetic changes are triggered by environmental stimuli and result in a gross changes over a single generation, such as the size of the beaks of Darwin’s finches.
No positive mutations are observed but adaptation works like a charm. Why? Not because of chance. Chance has no place in life systems that survive for 1 week let alone thousands of years.
Again, pre-programmed epigenetic adaptation seems to be operating here rather than mutation. The complete lack of any observed evidence for mutations that cause an increase in complexity and function is the elephant in the room. There are only examples of deleterious mutations that exhibit temporary benefit as Michael Behe pointed out with his examples concerning Malaria. I think that chance plays a part in adaptation, but not in generating novel genetic complexity. -QQuerius_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
09:09 AM
9
09
09
AM
PDT}

@Kairosfocus: :) What are you talking about? Those accidents "random" mutations ( if cell doesn't manage to repair or compensate ) lead to genetic diseases and death . Do you think that radiations create something? Darwinists tried and abandoned this path. :)Sandy_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
09:08 AM
9
09
08
AM
PDT}

"It’s simply the process by which the less well-favored species lose out in the competition for resources in a given environmental niche." Some live, some die. Not much there. Andrewasauber_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
08:59 AM
8
08
59
AM
PDT}

Sandy, if you are to add 2 + 3 and get a random result, that overwhelmingly will be an error. Random processes are creating errors, such as radioactivity. KFkairosfocus_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
08:45 AM
8
08
45
AM
PDT}

Alan Fox
Ori: In the context of finding biological novelties, unguided evolution is a search.
AF: No.

Ori: If unguided evolution is not a search, tell me what it is and give me a model of it.
AF: There’s no search. Please pay attention.
If unguided evolution is not a search, tell me what it is and give me a model of it.Origenes_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
08:28 AM
8
08
28
AM
PDT}

Evolution is fast except when it's slow. Evolution makes a lot of changes except when it doesn't. There is no reason for human beings to exist today, but we are told that we 'just happened' to survive. Then we had a "common ancestor" with apes and - somehow - self-upgraded to our "modern" form. The level of storytelling here is beyond common fiction today.relatd_{February 22, 2023
February
02
Feb
22
22
2023
08:24 AM
8
08
24
AM
PDT}

Prev 1 2 3 4 … 12 Next

You must be logged in to post a comment.

Leave a Reply