Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An infinite past can’t save Darwin?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Philosopher and photographer Laszlo Bencze shares with us a passage from Robert J. Spitzer on the impossibility of infinite past time. He explains,

If often happens that infinity is marshaled to prop up the notion that evolution can work via random mutations, no matter how heavily the odds are stacked against that possibility. If the finiteness of our universe limits the effectiveness of randomness in producing wonders, then infinity is offered as the handy solution. Our universe was preceded by an infinite number of other universes which rolled the dice an infinite number of times until finally our own time-bound universe happened to get it “just right.” An infinite number of universes of course entails infinite time, a concept tossed blithely into discussion as if it were no more problematic than booking a meal at a restaurant.

Here is one of several proofs that Spitzer offers to show the impossibility of infinite past time. I find it rather elegant:

Infinities within an aggregating succession imply “unoccurrable,” “unachievable,” and “unactualizable,” for an aggregating succession occurs one step at a time (that is, one step after another), and can therefore only be increased a finite amount. No matter how fast and how long the succession occurs, the “one step at a time” or “one step after another” character of the succession necessitates that only a finite amount is occurrable, achievable, or actualizable. Now, if “infinity” is applied to an aggregating succession, and it is to be kept analytically distinct from (indeed, contrary to) “finitude,” then “infinity” must always be more than can ever occur, be achieved or be actualized through an aggregating succession. Any other definition would make “infinity” analytically indistinguishable from “finitude” in its application to an aggregating succession. Therefore, in order to maintain the analytical distinction between “finitude” and “infinity” in an aggregating succession, “infinity” must be consider unoccurrable (as distinct from finitude which is occurrable), unachievable (as distinct from finitude which is achievable), and unactualizable (as distinct from finitude which is actualizable). We are now ready to combine the two parts of our expression through our three common conceptual bases:

“Infinite Past Time”

“(The) unoccurrable (has) occurred.”
“(The) unachievable (has been) achieved.”
“(The) unactualizable (has been) actualized.”

Failures of human imagination may deceive one into thinking that the above analytical contradictions can be overcome, but further scrutiny reveals their inescapability. For example, it might be easier to detect the unachievability of an infinite series when one views an infinite succession as having a beginning point without an ending point, for if a series has no end, then, a priori, it can never be achieved. However, when one looks at the infinite series as having an ending point but no beginning point (as with infinite past time reaching the present), one is tempted to think that the presence of the ending point must signify achievement, and, therefore, the infinite series was achieved. This conjecture does not avoid the contradiction of “infinite past time” being “an achieved unachievable.” It simply manifests a failure of our imagination. Since we conjecture that the ending point has been reached, we think that an infinite number of steps has really been traversed, but this does not help, because we are still contending that unachievability has been achieved, and are therefore still asserting an analytical contradiction. ( – New Proofs for the Existence of God, Robert J. Spitzer, p. 181 )

Readers? Thoughts?

See also: Arrow of time points to missing dark matter

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
KF, I'll look at the rest of your post as I get time.
Setting aside Spitzer’s complex terms, that is effectively his point and beyond him, Hilbert’s via the famous hotel. Though, Hilbert showed that one would also destabilise the finite numbers by careless extrapolation — the point of the hotel. ( Cf here: http://world.mathigon.org/Infinity and: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert's_paradox_of_the_Grand_Hotel Notice one can in principle introduce the step of sending guests in room n to room 2n, and putting in new guests into 2n +1, where n starts at 0 and repeat endlessly without ever failing to fit in a new set of guests. Also observe, this operation is an all at one go, not a stepwise deliverance of the change in succession.)
How does this "destabilize" the finite numbers (in standard terms, please)? Hilbert's Hotel is a nice puzzle, but I don't understand what you mean by that.daveS
January 25, 2016
January
01
Jan
25
25
2016
06:26 AM
6
06
26
AM
PDT
KF,
DS, no clock can credibly have ticked for a countably infinite number of times to date. Thermodynamics or cosmology alone in the context that an oscillator gates energy flow from a source in such a way as to have regular cycles, is enough for that. That was already settled above.
Gary Gaulin raised the issue of oscillating universes above, some of which would be consistent with an infinite past. We can replace the clock ticks with big bang/crunch cycles. For a theistic approach, the Creator could simply "mentally" note the passing of each second.
Notice, too: once I realised fine distinctions were going to be important to you, I spoke also of starting at some point on a number line of the ORDER of Aleph null. If you will (and as Aleph null will be a point of contention), consider A to be a natural number so large that its reciprocal is an infinitesimal; i.e. it is a hyper-real with fractional part zero, and the resulting 1/A –> 0 but is not quite there. I assume you are willing to accept real numbers that can be specified as whole plus fraction with an extension of the place value system for representing the power series in the base to simply represent.
Eh? There clearly is no such natural number A. Please, let's just use the real aleph-null. And there is absolutely no need to bring in the hyperreals to this trivial example.
I trust that understanding a negative number line to be a vector reflection of the natural numbers should also be clear. Just as complex numbers will be a 90 degree anti-clockwise rotation using the i-operator [which, repeated twice effects just the reflection we want], and that the ijk system arises similarly.
Ok.
The reals, again, come out through defining whole and fractional parts and from that going to a continuum on the “any two neighbouring values can define another real value in between” principle.
Well... that might get you only to the rationals. But nevermind, we both know how to work with real numbers.
Coming back, the point is that it is obvious that at each step from 1, 2, . . . n, one has only gone through a finite process and so to continue thereafter to the order A, is going to constantly still lie unattainably far ahead — the ultimate chase after the end of the rainbow. The distance from 0 to A cannot be traversed by any finite discrete step by successive step process — an algorithm if you please.
Again this "order A" stuff. If you can rephrase this using the standard definitions, that would be great. *** I'll have to pause there so I can get some work done. I really have no idea why this is so controversial.daveS
January 25, 2016
January
01
Jan
25
25
2016
06:06 AM
6
06
06
AM
PDT
"New Proofs for the Existence of God" sounds dodgy to me. This is what I don't like about it: IMO there cannot be any proofs for the existence of God. To believe or not is not a rational choice but primarily a moral choice of free will (the heart, not so much the mind). Otherwise, authors like this one would have done it once and for all. But it does not happen this way! There are considerations of all sorts, rational ones included. But no set of rational considerations necessarily entails faith. This is why, in fact, God praises human faith: it requires lots from a human being to believe. The Biblical concept of faith is so much different from the cold mental agreement with the existence of a God.EugeneS
January 25, 2016
January
01
Jan
25
25
2016
05:09 AM
5
05
09
AM
PDT
vid http://ed.ted.com/lessons/the-infinite-hotel-paradox-jeff-dekofsky/kairosfocus
January 25, 2016
January
01
Jan
25
25
2016
02:19 AM
2
02
19
AM
PDT
DS, no clock can credibly have ticked for a countably infinite number of times to date. Thermodynamics or cosmology alone in the context that an oscillator gates energy flow from a source in such a way as to have regular cycles, is enough for that. That was already settled above. Notice, too: once I realised fine distinctions were going to be important to you, I spoke also of starting at some point on a number line of the ORDER of Aleph null. If you will (and as Aleph null will be a point of contention), consider A to be a natural number so large that its reciprocal is an infinitesimal; i.e. it is a hyper-real with fractional part zero, and the resulting 1/A --> 0 but is not quite there. I assume you are willing to accept real numbers that can be specified as whole plus fraction with an extension of the place value system for representing the power series in the base to simply represent. Notice, I am in no wise specifying Aleph null as though it were a particular individual value on the number line. I give it as an order of scale. (One where it is countable in principle as the destination of a stepwise process that lists the naturals but is beyond the finite.) I trust that understanding a negative number line to be a vector reflection of the natural numbers should also be clear. Just as complex numbers will be a 90 degree anti-clockwise rotation using the i-operator [which, repeated twice effects just the reflection we want], and that the ijk system arises similarly. The reals, again, come out through defining whole and fractional parts and from that going to a continuum on the "any two neighbouring values can define another real value in between" principle. Coming back, the point is that it is obvious that at each step from 1, 2, . . . n, one has only gone through a finite process and so to continue thereafter to the order A, is going to constantly still lie unattainably far ahead -- the ultimate chase after the end of the rainbow. The distance from 0 to A cannot be traversed by any finite discrete step by successive step process -- an algorithm if you please. But by the mirror in 0 used, the span to be traversed in the other direction is the same. There is no good reason to imagine that one can start at some A and proceed by such a process to 0, on the strength of the first result. Setting aside Spitzer's complex terms, that is effectively his point and beyond him, Hilbert's via the famous hotel. Though, Hilbert showed that one would also destabilise the finite numbers by careless extrapolation -- the point of the hotel. ( Cf here: http://world.mathigon.org/Infinity and: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert's_paradox_of_the_Grand_Hotel Notice one can in principle introduce the step of sending guests in room n to room 2n, and putting in new guests into 2n +1, where n starts at 0 and repeat endlessly without ever failing to fit in a new set of guests. Also observe, this operation is an all at one go, not a stepwise deliverance of the change in succession.) I suspect Spitzer is correct to pin his attention on the way we can imagine but we are here so if we "must" have gone through an infinite past process to get here we can say at any point that is already accomplished. But that simply begs the question of finite discrete steps traversing a span that is countably infinite. And with our doubts on the table -- we can all play the Cartesian trick of if I doubt or can construct a doubt I can dismiss, can you show us good reason to believe the supertask can be completed stepwise? As my old gramps used to say, every tub must stand on its own bottom. Remember, after finite time per astrophysics, the stars will burn out and onward in finite time they will radiate out heat to a point where the observed cosmos will be in heat death; there would be no effective heat gradient to drive a clock process. That it is not now in such a condition entails finitely remote past for the only actually observed physical cosmos. Darwin et al do not have an infinite past to play with in this cosmos, and it would be interesting for us to hear of others. KFkairosfocus
January 25, 2016
January
01
Jan
25
25
2016
01:43 AM
1
01
43
AM
PDT
Brent, Well, I'm a layperson, so there's a limit to how certain I can be on this matter.daveS
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
07:52 PM
7
07
52
PM
PDT
daveS @80,
. . . but who knows.
From a very rough recollection of something Chesterton said, "The purpose of opening your mouth is to eventually close it on something solid." If you haven't closed your "mouth" on the solidity of the impossibility of an infinitely old universe, I hope you don't eat in the same manner, or there will be no more daveS.Brent
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
07:41 PM
7
07
41
PM
PDT
Mapou @60, OK. I obviously didn't understand your comment at 5. I really thought you meant to say that even God had a beginning. Otherwise, everyone would have been much better off taking your advice at 15 and just leaving the idea of an actual infinity alone.Brent
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
07:36 PM
7
07
36
PM
PDT
Got it, Dave - thanks for the discussion.Aleta
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
07:12 PM
7
07
12
PM
PDT
Aleta, I am also saying that this scenario is not incoherent (or at least that KF's objections don't take it down). Perhaps it also argues against Spitzer's point. That's about it. Re #79, which I just read: I agree. I am mainly interested in Spitzer's particular argument here. I'm actually skeptical about an infinitely old universe overall, but who knows.daveS
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
06:43 PM
6
06
43
PM
PDT
Dave, I wrote 78 before I read 77, so now I understand more. You write, "Aleta, "Spitzer argues that a universe in which you can travel back arbitrarily far in time is impossible." There is a vast difference between discussing the pure mathematics of this, which is what I have been doing, and making claims about a universe and what may or not be possible in it. I don't think we know enough, and ever will, about either time or universes to know whether our understanding about how our mathematical understandings of infinity as applied to our universe could be extrapolated to explain or describe possible other universes (if such exist), or realms that would not even be called universes. But those are much bigger, different questions. Again, I have just been discussing the math.Aleta
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
06:33 PM
6
06
33
PM
PDT
That all seems clear. Would it be reasonable to say that your point is that there is no starting point - no first moment of time, because the past is infinite? But that seems obvious also. Aleph-null is just a way of saying that a set of numbers can be mapped 1-1 with natural numbers, and obviously the negative integers can be so mapped, and thus have cardinality aleph null. And, as you say, since we are assuming the past is infinite, every negative integer has a clock tick - a one second moment of time, associated with it. Are you saying any more than these things?Aleta
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
06:25 PM
6
06
25
PM
PDT
Aleta, I don't think I really disagree with anything you said in post #75. Spitzer argues that a universe in which you can travel back arbitrarily far in time is impossible. I disagree, and don't think his method of devising an "analytical contradiction" works, and this clock example was what I came up with to show why I think that. I'm having a hard time explaining the actual workings of this example, however.daveS
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
06:18 PM
6
06
18
PM
PDT
KF, First, strike the last sentence of my post #72. I cannot do that task in any amount of steps. Let me address something which I should have noticed somewhere. There is no "counting down to 0 from aleph-null" in my example, which you seem to imply in several posts above. Here is what I have in mind: The most recent click occurs at t-zero The tick before that at t-minus-one Before that, at t-minus-two. And so forth. t-minus-3.15 x 10^7 occurred about 1 year ago. Every natural number is thus associated with a clock tick. There is no t-minus-aleph-null. Since I'm assuming an infinite past, all these times are well-defined. The clock never "started" ticking. It is eternal (although it could stop ticking now without changing my argument). What is the cardinality of the set of clicks before the present time? Aleph-null.daveS
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
06:03 PM
6
06
03
PM
PDT
I have been trying to understand Dave's point, but I can't, and I've forgotten/never really understood, what the point of contention is, but I'm interested. If now is zero, and you start walking backward into the past (using "walking" figuratively), you will never get to "negative infinity", because infinity is not a "place to get to" but rather a shorthand for the concept that you can always keep walking: no matter where you are, you aren't ever at infinity. This seems obvious, so I don't know what other point Dave is trying to make. Want to try again, Dave?Aleta
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
06:00 PM
6
06
00
PM
PDT
DS: Please, go find a flight of stairs and walk up then down. That should suffice to show finite, discrete, successive steps in sequence. KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
05:46 PM
5
05
46
PM
PDT
The future differs from the past: The past exists and is fixed The future does not exist and is not fixed See the difference?mike1962
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
05:10 PM
5
05
10
PM
PDT
KF, You keep talking about "finite steps", which I find puzzling. Of course I've been talking about executing infinitely many steps all along. Could you rephrase the task you're asking me to complete in more direct terms? If you're asking me to count through all the natural numbers in increasing order, then count through them in reverse (in order), then I won't be able to do that. Not in a countable number of steps anyway.daveS
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
05:07 PM
5
05
07
PM
PDT
From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model A cyclic model (or oscillating model) is any of several cosmological models in which the universe follows infinite, or indefinite, self-sustaining cycles. For example, the oscillating universe theory briefly considered by Albert Einstein in 1930 theorized a universe following an eternal series of oscillations, each beginning with a big bang and ending with a big crunch; in the interim, the universe would expand for a period of time before the gravitational attraction of matter causes it to collapse back in and undergo a bounce.GaryGaulin
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
04:54 PM
4
04
54
PM
PDT
KF @67: I withdraw the second half of my post #66. I'll take a look at the Hilbert reference when I can.daveS
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
04:49 PM
4
04
49
PM
PDT
DS, We are talking about past infinite causal successions, which would entail finite discrete steps. I am aware a Steady State model was contemplated; that was in the context of imagining the observable cosmos broadly conceived to be the necessary being root of reality. For instance a steady influx of matter was envisioned. When I objected on energy conservation, I was told the rate would not be detectable on lab or solar system scale. That is, the mod is empirically substantially equivalent. Next, if you note what I did, I first set out a counting up, indicating by ellipsis that this extended beyond limits would be of ORDER -- scale -- Aleph null, i.e. a countable transfinite. Timed succession was implied. Then the reversal to count down temporally from a past beyond the singularity was represented. That is, a procedure of allegedly arriving at present n through 0 from an infinite past was symbolised. In effect think of a discrete number line extended to such an order, reflected in a plane mirror set normal to the line at 0. To represent that, use - signs and ignore the well known mirror reversal of shapes so a 3 would look like a curly E. Now, the challenge still obtains. If you will, contemplate the reversed line and step back, -1, -2, . . . you will never complete the traversal. By direct comparison, it is unattainable to step down from that order in finite successive steps either. If you do hold that to have been completed, kindly show us how so. KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
04:45 PM
4
04
45
PM
PDT
KF,
DS, no actual finite succession of steps in our world can be actually infinite.
Agreed. But I'm not talking about a finite succession of steps.
It is no more possible to physically count down from infinity as to count up to it.
Of course an infinite past is not so popular now, but the eternal steady-state universe model was considered viable at one time. What would its age in seconds be?
Simply multiply through by -1 and reverse the order: – A . . . -3, -2, -1, 0
What is minus aleph-null? I don't know anything about multiplying infinite cardinals by negative numbers.daveS
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
04:33 PM
4
04
33
PM
PDT
DS, The reals are a mental not physical reality: contemplated eternally by the mind of root reality and accessible to our own. They are foundational to a world being instantiated, e.g. take 2 and twoness which is inextricably bound up in distinct identity and in thought. I should add, I have never advocated infinite past time (causal succession of existential, influencing instants linked to successive changes such as breakfast to we are hungry again, the meal having been digested); eternity is not time. That root, necessary being reality always was does not entail that our space-time domain is of infinite past duration, indeed the evidence is it has a finitely remote beginning and is contingent pointing to a begin-ner. KF PS: To get a simplistic analogy, contemplate how the north pole is north of all longitudes at all latitudes all at once so that the 24 hours are instantly present there.kairosfocus
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
04:22 PM
4
04
22
PM
PDT
KF, The first bolded part is where he applies his alleged "analytical contradiction", which is exactly what I am questioning. I'm not convinced that an infinite past creates an achieved unachievable.
it will be clear that “infinite past time” (as defined) must be an actual infinity which Hilbert shows to be inapplicable to any reality to which the axioms of finite mathematics can be applied.
Interesting. I'll take a look at the Hilbert reference tomorrow if I get the time. Are you sure you want to go there, though? The trouble is apparently with C-infinities, which are described thusly:
3) “C-infinity.” “Infinite” is sometimes used to signify “infinity actualized within an algorithmically finite structure.” Mathematicians such as Georg Cantor hypothesized a set with an actual infinite number of members (a Cantorian set) which would not be a set with an ever-increasing number of members or an algorithm which could generate a potential infinity of members. Examples might be an existing infinite number line, or an existing infinite spatial manifold, or the achievement of an infinite continuous succession of asymmetrical events (i.e., infinite past history).
and:
Thus, if C-infinities could really exist, there could be infinite space, infinity degrees Fahrenheit, infinite mass density, infinite physical force, and infinite past time.
From your past writings, I take it you accept the existence of the set of real numbers, and so forth, which are of this type, right?daveS
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
04:16 PM
4
04
16
PM
PDT
DS, no actual finite succession of steps in our world can be actually infinite. It is no more possible to physically count down from infinity as to count up to it. Abstract to a model ideal world without heat death or the like thermodynamic rundown as stars burn out and gradually fade away into cinders etc lurking and once finite duration steps are involved, we are back to the traversal of the transfinite in successive steps. Where we cannot reason properly, that we are here so we have achieved the infinite succession to get here. Take 0, 1, 2, 3 . . . A where A indicates order of Aleph null. Readily, we cannot traverse this. Simply multiply through by -1 and reverse the order: - A . . . -3, -2, -1, 0 then concatenate with 1, 2, 3 . . . n, for now. Finite duration steps, we can readily go from 0, the singularity say to now. But all we did was to reverse sign, there is no more reason to imagine counting down from A-order to 0 in finite steps than counting up. However, when worldview commitments are in play, people will go p --> Q but I reject Q so I challenge P. I therefore leave it as a commitment implicit in certain views that we have actually successively traversed the infinite past to get here. How can you justify such a view, on the premise that every tub must stand on its own bottom. KF PS: I add, note onward discussion on Hilbert's prohibition of type C infinities: http://magisgodwiki.org/index.php?title=Mathematics#Summary_of_Hilbert.27s_Prohibition_of_Actual_Infinitieskairosfocus
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
03:58 PM
3
03
58
PM
PDT
PS: Notice how he goes on:
Failures of human imagination may deceive one into thinking that the above analytical contradictions can be overcome, but further scrutiny reveals their inescapability. For example, it might be easier to detect the unachievability of an infinite series when one views an infinite succession as having a beginning point without an ending point, for if a series has no end, then, a priori, it can never be achieved. However, when one looks at the infinite series as having an ending point but no beginning point (as with infinite past time reaching the present), one is tempted to think that the presence of the ending point must signify achievement, and, therefore, the infinite series was achieved. This conjecture does not avoid the contradiction of “infinite past time” being “an achieved unachievable.” It simply manifests a failure of our imagination. Since we conjecture that the ending point has been reached, we think that an infinite number of steps has really been traversed, but this does not help, because we are still contending that unachievability has been achieved, and are therefore still asserting an analytical contradiction. Another failure of our imagination arises out of thinking about relative progress in an historical succession. Our common sense might say that infinite past history is impossible because an infinity is innumerable, immeasurable, and unquantifiable, making the expression “an infinite number” an oxymoron. But then we get to thinking that infinite history seems plausible because each step relative to the other steps is quantifiable in its progression; each step is subject to relative numeration. Therefore, it seems like history can really achieve an infinite number of steps. However, as the above analysis reveals, this cannot be so because an infinity in a continuous succession must be unachievable or unactualizable as a whole (otherwise, it would be analytically indistinguishable from “finitude” in a continuous succession). Since, as has been said, past time must be achieved or actualized (otherwise it would be analytically indistinguishable from “present” and “future”), “infinite past time” must be an “achieved unachievable” or an “actualized unactualizable” (an intrinsic contradiction). Moreover, the expression “an infinite number” is also an intrinsic contradiction because “number” implies a definite quantity, whereas “infinity” implies innumerability (more than can ever be numbered). Therefore, infinite history and its characterization as “a completion of infinite time,” remains inescapably analytically contradictory. This intrinsic analytical contradiction reveals the problematic character of the very idea of “infinite past time.” It now remains for us to show the inapplicability of this problematic idea to our universe, and indeed, to any really possible changeable universe. This step will give ontological (“synthetic”) significance to the analytical contradiction by showing that the condition of the real world (i.e., our real universe, or any really possible changeable universe) will contradict (and therefore resist) the application of this problematic idea to it. The result will be that no real universe could have had infinite past time. Before we can proceed to this proof, we must first give an ontological explanation of real time[1], and then show that this real time must be intrinsic to any changeable universe, and then explain Hilbert’s distinction between actual and potential infinities so that it will be clear that “infinite past time” (as defined) must be an actual infinity which Hilbert shows to be inapplicable to any reality to which the axioms of finite mathematics can be applied. The ontological proof against an infinity of past time will follow from this.
kairosfocus
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
03:45 PM
3
03
45
PM
PDT
KF, As I stated before, I'm not referring to anything infinitesimal here. Maybe I should have bolded only the "how long" part, and not "how fast".daveS
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
03:39 PM
3
03
39
PM
PDT
DS: I see, likely here http://magisgodwiki.org/index.php?title=Mathematics#An_Analytical_Contradiction_in_.22Infinite_Past_Time.22 To wit:
Infinities within an aggregating succession imply “unoccurrable,” “unachievable,” and “unactualizable,” for an aggregating succession [--> this implies a physical situation of finite sucessive steps] occurs one step at a time (that is, one step after another), and can therefore only be increased a finite amount. [--> just made explicit] No matter how fast and how long the succession occurs, the “one step at a time” or “one step after another” character of the succession necessitates that only a finite amount is occurrable, achievable, or actualizable. [--> I would stress successive, finite] Now, if “infinity” is applied to an aggregating succession, and it is to be kept analytically distinct from (indeed, contrary to) “finitude,” then “infinity” must always be more than can ever occur, be achieved or be actualized through an aggregating succession. Any other definition would make “infinity” analytically indistinguishable from “finitude” in its application to an aggregating succession. Therefore, in order to maintain the analytical distinction between “finitude” and “infinity” in an aggregating succession, “infinity” must be consider unoccurrable (as distinct from finitude which is occurrable), unachievable (as distinct from finitude which is achievable), and unactualizable (as distinct from finitude which is actualizable). We are now ready to combine the two parts of our expression through our three common conceptual bases: “Infinite Past Time” “(The) unoccurrable (has) occurred.” “(The) unachievable (has been) achieved.” “(The) unactualizable (has been) actualized.”
I believe no matter how fast was likely not intended to enfold the infinitesimal. Taken with that proviso (which is suggested by what I bolded), he is saying in effect what I have said. KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
03:33 PM
3
03
33
PM
PDT
Mapou, I have not been arguing that there is anything in the physical world that is either infinite in number, infinitely small, or infinitely small. I think I've made that clear. But it's not a lie that "calculus uses infinity." Math is an abstraction - a logical system - and within that system, infinity is a concept that is useful, and essential for the development of calculus. Furthermore, calculus, and math in general, can be applied to the real world even though there isn't a perfect correspondence between it and the world. In this case, even though the infinitely small upon which calculus is based does not actually exist in the physical world, the components of the world are small enough that it is often easier - much easier - and accurate enough, to apply calculus than it is to treat those components with discrete math. An example is calculating compound interest. If you have $1000 in the bank at 10% interest for 10 years, it is easier to calculate the compound interest using the natural exponential function (which assumes instantaneous compounding) rather than the discrete exponential function: there is about a 37 cent difference in the two values, even though a day is a very large value in respect to infinitely small, and I could with some assurance do both calculations with sufficient accuracy using the scientific calculator on my computer. However, if you look other examples, such as heat loss which involves a huge number of molecules, a calculation using calculus will be vastly simpler (the discrete calculation would probably be impossible) and accurate beyond any practical limits. So the short summary is that even if infinity doesn't actually exist in the real world, using math based on the concept of infinity does work well enough for a great many things.Aleta
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
03:32 PM
3
03
32
PM
PDT
Brent:
Mapou, I agree with your sentiment at 15, but not with your stated application/conclusion in 5. If infinitude doesn’t exist in at least one sense, somewhere, or better put, some how, then nothing exists, period.
If infinity exists, it does not exist in the physical universe, that's for sure.Mapou
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
03:07 PM
3
03
07
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply