From a philosophy prof and chaplain:
Let’s now look at an example of a scientific proof and contrast it with an argument from philosophy. An argument from natural science goes something like this (there are even some philosophical moves here, such as the move from effect to cause):
“Everything that has a beginning has a cause. The universe had a beginning. Therefore, the universe had a cause.”
Most of the effort is usually placed on the second premise to marshal evidence for the universe’s beginning. For example, the second law of thermodynamics (law of entropy) is often invoked. It says that energy in a closed system (a system that doesn’t get energy from the outside) converts from usable to unusable energy. In other words, when we take our cell phones off of their chargers the battery begins to die until it is recharged. In the absence of a charger (energy from the outside), when it dies the phone will simply not work. The move in this argument is to show that there is nothing outside the known universe that provides energy. Thus, left to itself, the universe is running out of usable energy. If the universe existed from the infinite past, it would have already run out of energy by now. But it hasn’t. Therefore, the argument says that the universe has not existed forever into the past, but had a beginning. And if it had a beginning, it had a beginner.
Arguments like this are very strong, but they depend on the accuracy of interpretations and notions such as how the second law of thermodynamics works and to what extent it can be applied. Does the law apply to everything? Does it apply to the whole universe? Is the universe getting outside energy (whatever that would mean)? Thus, there is a degree of probability with this reasoning. It is based on induction and is thus not certain.
Philosophical proofs on the other hand lead to deductive (metaphysical) certainty. That is, scientific theories change, but the nature of the world does not… Brian Huffling, “Why Philosophical Proofs for God Are Better Than “Scientific” Proofs” at J. Brian Huffling, Ph.D.
His basic point is that philosophy, unlike science, can deal in deductive proofs which are stronger than inductive evidence. But is the divide between science and philosophy so very clear?
Readers? Thoughts?
See also: Are black holes partly a philosophy question?
John Lennox vs. Peter Atkins: Can science explain everything?
and
Why neither weak nor strong scientism can gorund ethics
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Interesting topic.
Of course the premises on which the “proof” is based could be faulty. I don’t believe there is certainty (that God exists) to be had whether the “proof” is philosophical or scientific.
Doubtless the writer thinks that way because he is a philosopher and not a scientist. I would think a pragmatic judgement about which is “better” would be better: which “proofs” work best with various sorts of people? I imagine that philosophical arguments would work better with some people, while scientific ones would work better with others. So why not use either or both as appropriate? Then, of course, there is the question of “proof”; given that many do not accept “deductive certainty” in such arguments, one can hardly refer to philosophical arguments as “proofs” in the same sense as mathematical deductions.
A philosophical argument is just that, an argument It may follow the correct logical form, in which case we say it’s valid, but it can still be complete nonsense. For example, borrowing from Lewis Carroll’s Jabberwocky
All toves are slithy
All borogoves are toves
Therefore all borogoves are slithy
Our confidence in the truth of the conclusion to a philosophical argument depends on our confidence in how true is the information contained in the premises.
Science is not concerned so much with philosophical truth as with trying to find testable explanations for what we can observe or infer about the universe in which we find ourselves. If they are concerned with truth it is in the sense of the correspondence theory under which an explanation or description is true to the extent it can be observed to correspond with the phenomena for which it purports to provide an account.
Neither are the two disciplines mutually exclusive. Philosophy can provide the metaphysical underpinnings for what science does and guide research and there can be very few philosophers who would turn down any empirical support for their conclusions offered by science.
Seversky:
And that is why evolutionism is not science- it makes untestable claims.
DaveS the atheist claims,
Is he certain about that uncertainty?
Without God there can be no certainty. For prime example, without God there can be no certainty that we really exist as conscious persons.
,,, Yet the most certain thing that we can possibly know about reality is the fact that we really do exist as conscious persons.
Therefore if you are absolutely certain that you really exist as a conscious person then you can also be absolutely certain that God also exists as a conscious person since ‘personhood’ can only be reasonably grounded within Theism.
Thus for us to be absolutely certain about anything, God must necessarily exist in order to be able to ground that certainty.
Of supplemental note:
Nice post from Sev@3.
And I’m certain that Ed isn’t certain that that there is no certainty (that God exists). 🙂 It’s more likely (I’m not certain about this) that, taking as much into consideration as he can, Ed doesn’t believe there is certainty (that God exists) to be had, whether the “proof” is philosophical or scientific, which is in fact exactly what he said. Ed can correct me if I’m wrong.
We all have beliefs which are based upon as much evidence and logic as we can find, but for which I am certain we would say we were not certain.
My understanding is that it is not possible to ‘mathematically’ prove the existence of God. It is His will that a person should come to believe freely. Otherwise there would be no worth in such straight-jacketed belief. But freedom means responsibility. One day He will hold everyone responsible for their free choice.
Seversky said:
Science doesn’t offer any explanations; it offers descriptive models, which do not explain those behaviors.
Philosophy is the fundamental root of science and all considerations of who, what and where we are. Philosophy (acknowledged or not, examined or not) is the root of every model (scientific or not) and every conscious perspective that interprets and orders our perceptions of existence. It is not secondary or minor in any respect; it is primary. Until one understands and critically examines the perhaps unrecognized and non-articulated philosophy they are employing in the navigation and understanding of their experience, they are simply the functioning tools of whatever haphazard agglomeration of subconscious conditioning ( a philosophical junk pile) has been bred into them since childhood.
Hazel at post 6 references Ed’s uncertainty, but Ed has not commented in this thread. But anyways regardless of that mistake, Hazel prefaces her own statements about her own certainty and uncertainty with the specific words “I’m” and/or “I am”,,,
Thus my argument for God from our own subjective consciousness experience is confirmed by Hazel’s very own word’s, “I am”. Hazel with the words “I am” is declaring to all the rest of us reading her comment that she is in fact having a personal subjective conscious experience and that her certainty and/or uncertainty about anything else coming after that is in fact predicated upon her first having that personal subjective conscious experience of “I am”, i.e. predicated upon us first accepting her “I am” statement prior to us accepting whether she is certain or uncertain. But we have no direct way of ‘scientifically’ knowing that she is in fact having a personal subjective conscious experience of “I am”. We must take her word for it. Of course, I firmly believe, and/or am absolutely ‘certain’ of the fact that she is a real person having a personal subjective conscious experience of “I am”, but she simply has no way of proving that point to me. or to anyone else, either scientifically and/or logically. As Alvin Plantinga noted in his book “God and Other Minds’, “the evidence for God is just as good as the evidence for other minds; and conversely, if there isn’t any evidence for God, then there is also no evidence that other minds exist.”
In fact, if we wanted to play hyper-skeptics, as atheists do with the overwhelming evidence for God, I could just sit back and simply deny Hazel’s claim that she really is having personal conscious experience and I could further hold that she is merely a ‘philosophical zombie’ going through the motions of personhood.
She, Hazel, who ‘I am’ absolutely certain is having a personal subjective conscious experience, simply has no way of proving that point to us, especially if we simply choose not to ever accept her word for it. Such as it is with the refusal of atheist’s to ever accept any evidence for the reality of God. i.e. If Theist’s wanted to, we could take the same hyper-skeptical position of atheists and simply refuse to ever accept any evidence that the atheist might offer that he/she really exist as a real person having a ‘real’ personal subjective conscious experience.
Of course, especially with advances in neuroscience and quantum mechanics, I can provide much scientific evidence for the reality of the immaterial mind and free will (both for God’s mind and our own immaterial mind), thus bolstering our certainty in the reality of our own immaterial mind and in God’s mind, but the main point of the argument from consciousness that I made in post 5 is that ‘certainty’ itself is, first and foremost, predicated upon us having a “I am” subjective conscious experience in the first place. Nothing else can come before “I am”. And Hazel, apparently unaware of the exact point that I was making in post 5, comes along and verifies the main point that I made in post 5 with the three “I am” statements she made preceding her specific beliefs about her certainty. and/or uncertainty. To which I say, “Thank you Hazel for proving the exact point that I was making.”
It is also interesting to note that God, when asked, told Moses to tell the Israelites that his name is “I am”
hazel- there isn’t any evidence for materialism.
Oops. When I said Ed in 6 I meant DaveS.
ET @10:
Not only is there no evidence (that I know of) supporting materialism, there is plenty of evidence against it. Also, as a worldview philosophy, it is entirely self-defeating. As I’ve pointed out many times, people can walk around claiming to be a materialist, but they cannot even act as if materialism is true.
Philosophy brought science (Western) into existence, and science denies philosophy’s paternity. We need a “DNA” test! 🙂