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At Mind Matters News: Do any dogs go to heaven? If so, why?

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Neuroscientist Christof Koch was troubled as a child by the Catholic tradition that dogs like his beloved Purzel did not go to heaven:

In recent articles, we’ve discussed well-known neuroscientist Christof Koch’s Integrated Information Theory (IIT) of consciousness which, as he acknowledges, takes a panpsychist (everything is conscious to some degree) approach to the mind. He has explained his reasoning at MIT Press Reader: Materialists must see human consciousness as an illusion — but then whose illusion is it? Panpsychism allows humans to have actual consciousness but, he says, “experience may not even be restricted to biological entities but might extend to non-evolved physical systems previously assumed to be mindless — a pleasing and parsimonious conclusion about the makeup of the universe.” His perspective is gaining popularity in science…

One, perhaps unexpected, factor that he mentions as shaping his overall approach was youthful dissatisfaction with Catholic Church teachings about the immortality of animals…

A well-known Christian scholar and writer of the mid-twentieth century, C.S. Lewis (1898–1963), took a more complex view of the question. Lewis, in no way a pantheist, offers a tentative case for some animal immortality — based precisely on the human exceptionalism that Koch finds objectionable.

News, “Do any dogs go to heaven? If so, why?” at Mind Matters News


Takehome: Ironically, human exceptionalism, which Koch decries, holds out the possibility that some beloved animals may indeed share immortality with humans.

See also: Why would a neuroscientist choose panpsychism over materialism? It seems to have come down to a choice between “nothing is conscious” and “everything is conscious.” Materialism becomes incoherent when it requires us to believe that we only imagine we are conscious — that’s a basic error in logic.

and

The real reason why only human beings speak. Language is a tool for abstract thinking—a necessary tool for abstraction—and humans are the only animals who think abstractly

Comments
Why is it no one is answering my questions about the Christian heaven in #24? There seems to be disagreement on at least some issues, but they are mostly indirect arguments. Does the Bible not detail the conditions of heaven? Honest question out of ignorance. Is there free will in heaven? Do we retain our memories and relationships? Is it that the people who make it there cannot do evil things, or is it that they can, but would not? Do mountains, rivers, deserts, cities, small towns, cabins by the lake exist? Do the seasons change, is there a day and night cycle, are there stars and the moon? Does a universe exist? Can we visit other planets? Is there food in heaven? Is there sex? Can I change what I look like, or am I stuck looking the way I look now for eternity? Is there romance? Do people fall in love? Is there marriage? Can we have children there? Is there a wide variety of music? Are there concerts? Is there stuff to learn about, responsibilities we take on like jobs? Is there art - paint supplies, canvas, etc? Is there a wide variety of clothes? Do we have physical bodies? Are there sports? Games? Entertainment, like movies or TV shows? Or are we more like glowing orbs of pure bliss? Eternity is a long time, man. Do any of you know what you're getting yourselves into? I mean that seriously. It all seems extremely vague to me so far, but I chalk that up to my own ignorance about Christianity. What people are saying above isn't really helping to alleviate my ignorance. The only direct answers I ever got about this from what may or may not be considered a Christian was a Jehova's Witness that came by every so often and we'd talk for a while. Under his beliefs, we don't go to heaven in the endgame; we live on a new Earth paradise, where we have all the things I listed above. At least that was an end result with specificity, one that was truly appealing to me.William J Murray
June 19, 2021
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Mohammadnursyamsu,
You pay attention to objective issues with science, and you pay attention to subjective issues with religion.
I don't pay much attention to either. I pay attention to what I enjoy, and to what seems to work in making my life as personally enjoyable as possible.William J Murray
June 18, 2021
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WJM, I don't buy it, you don't really get subjectivity. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact Your enjoyment would be in category 1. But really, it is obvious one should have general consideration for all what is in category 1. Which means, other people's emotions, and generally the spirit of any decision in the universe anywhere. I don't know how to pay dedicated attention to subjective issues, other than praying to God. Talking to God in worship, it is just the perfect way. Because God rules over all, so if you pray to God, then you are dealing with all what is subjective. It is just perfect. But anyway, any other way you can figure it, the result must be to pay dedicated attention to subjective issues, as in bona fide religion. If you understand subjectivity, this should be obvious. You pay attention to objective issues with science, and you pay attention to subjective issues with religion.mohammadnursyamsu
June 18, 2021
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WJM you didn't speak with your wife. The person that you think is your wife is a fallen angel=demon. Did you make some kind of promise to "somebody" if get you in touch with your wife? This is witchcraft. Telling us you don't like what offers The Christian God that means you are an undercover sorcerer or under influence of a sorcerer .Sandy
June 18, 2021
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Mohammadnursyamsu said:
Because really what that can only mean is,...
Because that is objectively what those words mean? Because that what I must mean, objectively speaking? That may be what it means to you, but that's not what I meant when I said that. Perhaps you haven't read what I've said in this forum before about the subject. Everything I do and think is in service to my personal, subjective enjoyment. So yes, I spend a lot of time thinking about the subjective. I just don't call that activity "spiritual."William J Murray
June 18, 2021
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WJM, that is just outrageous that you are ambivalent about spirituality. Because really what that can only mean is, that you don't pay dedicated attention to subjective issues. You pay attention to objective issues, science, material, but you don't pay attention to subjective issues.mohammadnursyamsu
June 18, 2021
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To be fair, I find myself ambivalent about all religions and "spiritualities" I have read or heard about in my life. It's not just Christianity.William J Murray
June 18, 2021
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AD, I'd like to focus on something you said:
Get outside of yourself, and consider the possibilities of an intellect far greater than yours, who completely understands you, and yet loves you anyway, also wants an eternal relationship with you.
This is the single greatest problem I personally have or face with this perspective: I do not want what Christianity or Jesus offers, so far as it has been offered by various sources in my 62 years of life, nor can I offer what Christianity demands. I cannot love God more than my wife. I do not have any love for the Christian God as it has thus far been presented, or the "heaven" it offers. This is why I ask questions, such as I did in this thread, about the Christian heaven. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but I'm personally underwhelmed by the information and descriptions of the Christian God and the Christian heaven and the Christian description of existence and reality, at least to this current date. It leaves me ambivalent. But, that's me, personally. I fully accept that for many others, the Christian God, heaven and that existential reality is something they have a deep, abiding love for and relationship with. If they feel about those things at least to the degree (who knows, perhaps even more so) the way I feel about my wife. I can hardly find fault with them or disrespect them for going with and following that kind of deep, abiding, fulfilling love.William J Murray
June 18, 2021
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Also, not that he likely cares, but for my money, BA77 is hands down the best arguer for Christianity I have ever seen, including the past and present supposed "giants" of such arguments. I have always been blown away at how much pertinent evidence and information he has available, the research he has obviously done, and how he weaves it together seamlessly into his arguments. He is truly a wonder, and I respect the heck out of him. I don't often argue with BA77 because he leaves nothing to argue about. His arguments are exhaustive, logically sound, evidential, and really, things of beauty to read. I "argued" with him for weeks about the evidence for the geocentric theory, but I was only trying to understand the evidence. Once I understood the evidence, it was clear he was right, and I told him so.William J Murray
June 18, 2021
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AnimatedDust @ 54, First, I want to thank you for your very kind and sincere words. I greatly appreciate it and you heartfelt concern for my future. Second, it is not my desire to pry you from your beliefs. I respect your beliefs. I have no reason to doubt anything written as factual events in the Bible, including the resurrection of Jesus. It is my sincere belief that those who believe as you, KF and BA77 and others here believe, will realize your amazing and wonderful fulfillment of your faith. I am truly happy and feel joy for you and what you now experience and will in time come to experience. I've always believed in life after death, even when I was a young child. I've experienced a few events that should have killed me, but in that moment when I thought I was certainly going to die, there was never any fear whatsoever. I've never feared death. Now, what you (and everyone else here) doesn't know: the reason I know what my wife means to me in all it's terrible, devastating, despairing beauty and glory is because she died in April of 2017. She battled cancer for a little over 2 years before she was finally free of this world. That's why I stopped writing here for about a long time; nothing mattered to me except finding a way, if it was possible, to reconnect with her. I devoted myself to it 24/7 because, as I found out then in its fullness, she was and is everything to me. Before you think that you are sorry for my loss, I didn't lose anything. I gained so very much. For months I was in agony and despair I didn't know a human could survive. Unless you have experienced the death of your "soul mate," or a child, you have no idea what it is like. It is unimaginable. Today, over four years later, I am so grateful for the experience I don't have the words to properly express it. The experience changed me completely, and led me through a torturous path of exploration and discovery I could not have even thought of had she not died, had the depth of my love for her not been so completely revealed to me; you truly do not know what you have until it is taken away from you, and some part of you believes: I'll never have her again. She's gone. It's over." Even though I consciously believed in the afterlife, that is not what my subconscious had been trained to think because of the way people and society acts when people die. My subconscious reacted with the full force and fury of that thought: she's gone forever. Long story short, with an enormous amount of help from her, we reconnected, established communication, interaction, and developed our relationship far beyond what it was before, and we had thought, in that "before," this is as good as it can possibly get. I have visited with her physically in her "world," several times. We speak with each other constantly throughout the day. We can visit with each other any time either of us wish in ways it would take books to set up and explain properly, including psychological, emotional and physical sensations there just aren't words for in this world, except to perhaps call them "divine." I wrote and self-published on Amazon about this, wrote a daily, public blog as I was going through it, and co-founded a FB group specifically for those that have and their "significant person" die who was, and is, their "everything," who have no desire to "move on, " but rather desire to move forward with their relationship with their (dead) partner, to find a way through the grief back into a happy, joyful continuing relationship with their loves. I've spent countless hours on the phone and in zoom meetings, and in the group, working with hundreds of people. I don't charge anything for any of this, and my books are available for free to group members. Scores of people have told me that I saved their lives, gave them hope and helped to guide them back from the edge. Family, friends and society (at least in USA society) do not treat people in this situation kindly (for long) because, as everyone in that group can testify, people are uncomfortable around the grieving who refuse to "move on" from the dead. When I first met some of those people in our Zoom group, they couldn't even speak without breaking down and sobbing. Today, they experience no more grief, are full of happiness and joy, and some have also physically visited with their partners in that world much more often and for much longer periods of time than I and my wife. I don't say any of that for self-aggrandizement; I say it to disclose that this has been my life for the past four years. I am now, and have been for over two years now, more joyously happy and fulfilled than ever, am even more in love with my wife than I thought possible, and serving a community of people (yes, because I enjoy it) that have nowhere else to turn. Because I dislike anyone thinking I am an authority on any of this, last year I stepped down from my leadership and admin roles and handed the whole thing off to younger people who are more comfortable dealing with and being leaders for the growing membership, now getting close to 1000 members. Also, I wanted to spend more time with my wife, my family, painting, and developing my thoughts during this phase of my life. To be clear, if my relationship with my wife and the complete love I have for her dooms me to an eternity of pain, so be it. Absent a complete mind-wipe, that is my fate regardless of any other circumstances if I cannot be with her. I love her completely, ultimately, no matter what. I understand this about myself; there was no enjoyment of life before her; there is no enjoyment of life without her. She is my "it," and I say that because this is how she described her love for me; I am her "it." That's just the way it is for us.William J Murray
June 18, 2021
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At post 5 Sandy claimed that animals are just automations,
Nope. No animal have soul ,all are automatons . God put in their vegetative brain some software that give us the impression that they have some understanding, intelligence but all are preseted programs that run on certain ,triggers ,stimuli. - Sandy
Yet research conducted by Rupert Sheldrake strongly suggests that animals are not just mindless automations but they also have some sort of spiritual component to their being like humans do.
Jaytee, a dog who knew when his owner was coming home: The ORF Experiment - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA5wAm2c01w Comment on the video: "This exact thing happened every night with my dog on my return home from work. My mother noticed that my dog would go sit by the front door, whimper slightly and not move from that spot until I walked in about 10 minutes later. I did not catch the same train home each evening. My mother also noticed that during the time that my dog was ‘stationed’ at the door, he would not look at my mother, or acknowledge her in any way, even though my mother and the dog had be best buddies all during the day up to the moment he went and sat by the door. He was a special little dog - I really loved him" Dogs That Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home: – April 26, 2011 - With a scientist's mind and an animal lover's compassion, world-renowned biologist Rupert Sheldrake presents a groundbreaking exploration of animal behavior that will profoundly change the way we think about animals--and ourselves. How do cats know when it's time to go to the vet, even before the cat carrier comes out? How do dogs know when their owners are returning home at unexpected times? How can horses find their way back to the stable over completely unfamiliar terrain? After five years of extensive research involving thousands of people who have pets and work with animals, Dr. Sheldrake proves conclusively what many pet owners already know: there is a strong connection between humans and animals that defies present-day scientific understanding. Sheldrake compellingly demonstrates that we and our pets are social animals linked together by invisible bonds connecting animals to each other, to their owners, and to their homes in powerful ways https://www.amazon.com/Dogs-That-Their-Owners-Coming/dp/0307885968
bornagain77
June 17, 2021
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Wow. So Sandy doesn't understand that humans are animals. Are you a plant, gas or mineral, Sandy? Even Linnaeus placed us in the Animal Kingdom. Sandy:
Yes, you are.
Yes I am human. And yes all humans are animals.ET
June 17, 2021
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WJM @25 "That’s me. Heaven is meaningless to me without my wife. There’s no condition or pain hell can possibly serve up that compares to the pain of even the idea of not being with her, much less the experience itself." (BA77, this is a remarkably vulnerable and honest comment from WJM. Let's give it its due.) WJM, you are one of the most amazing intellects I have ever run across in my internet forays. I find incredible value in your eloquence and substance of things as they relate to consciousness. I read almost everything you write. Lately, I have noticed a turn in your thinking, that if I have it somewhat right, shows a gap in your big picture skills, because of your admitted lack (admitted here as well) of knowledge of the claims of Christianity. BA thoroughly articulates them in sometimes excruciating detail on a daily basis. How much time do you spend on his links and assertions? It's pretty obvious that us humans are wired a certain way, and that materialism didn't do it. You've thoroughly repudiated the material position repeatedly, game-set-match, yourself. But in all your recent banter about qualia, and such, and what we are experiencing as humans in sensory and cognitive functions, and their attendant integration, you seem to be missing the big picture. What does all this mean, and why are we this way, would be two questions. It's been said that everyone worships something. The Christian position is that anything you place greater importance on than God, will ultimately destroy you. You've just put out there that your wife is the most important thing in your life. I assume she feels the same about you. If you put all your emotional eggs in that basket, you're going to be profoundly crushed in the end. She may die tomorrow. You may die tomorrow. If nothing is worse than her death to you, you are in fact making a good thing, an ultimate thing, and there's no way it can be sustained forever. And we know forever, because we can apprehend the concept. The claims of Christianity give you an out, where you get her, and relationship with God, forever. If you place everything on her, you get nothing but despair. I am surprised you haven't done the math on this, given your giant intellect and problem solving skills in other areas of complex human consciousness. The thing is, we are told, we must become like children, to grasp what all is at stake here. If you're ignorant of Christianity, why aren't you doing something about it? I'm nobody but an admirer, but why not start with the claims of the resurrection? If it could be established to your satisfaction that there is physical life after death, wouldn't it make great sense to explore those claims to their fullest? Because if that's true, what else on this earth matters? If you have the incarnate God where he should be, He who created not only you, but your wife, and knew the kind of relationship you'd have, why wouldn't you turn your full attention to him, in order that your relationship with your wife might continue eternally? All other roads lead to bones and dust. All of your recent talk of qualia of the smell of oranges and such miss the bigger picture. What is the nature of the designer who made you/your wife and everyone else with a nose to be able to enjoy a pleasant fragrance that way? Or a beautiful melody? Or a majestic sunset? We are an integrated part of a world and a universe with a purpose, and you seem to not be able to see that, because of your giant intellect. Get your brain out of the way, and open your mind in ways not heretofore considered! BA is always talking about the Shroud of Turin, and how that image got there, and NDEs. Have you spent any time exploring his links? There are many things contained therein that should make anyone, including you, take pause. The similarities in what people experience near death should be given considerable pause. It is INCREDIBLE, and incredibly similar!! And he's pointing out how Quantum Mechanics is scientifically validating higher planes of existence! How did that darned image get on the Shroud? More radiation in less time than any machine extant in 2021 is capable of producing. SAY WHAT???? I don't think I have ever seen you comment on ANY of that. Anyway, I am not very articulate, but I hope I have given you some pause. You sound like you would give anything to keep your wife forever. What if you didn't have to give anything, but instead, only receive something, as one receives a gift? It would require humbling yourself, and possibly considering that your giant intellect is a gift as well, and you've never even considered that, nor thanked the super-intellect who gave that to you. Keep ruminating about qualia, and you may miss the very thing you wanted most, who has been right under your nose the entire time. Here's the dirty little secret: THIS UNIVERSE IS ALL FOR US. ...And a creator whose love is so boundless, that everything we see in the universe is a manifestation of that love. Nothing else explains beauty, justice, flowers, hummingbirds, music, ballet, nebulae, and the skin on a baby's butt. Humble yourself, pick up N.T. Wright's "The Resurrection of the Son of God". About 900 pages of high level scholarship. You're totally ready for it. Once you're clear that Jesus Christ did physically rise from the dead, you can use your remaining years to thank him for every breath, and your wife's every breath, and sign on to the one program that gets you everything plus her, forever. What's your alternative? Unspeakable darkness if you lose her, as you admittedly fear? Get outside of yourself, and consider the possibilities of an intellect far greater than yours, who completely understands you, and yet loves you anyway, also wants an eternal relationship with you. It's a choice. What's holding you back? Thanks for reading. --ADAnimatedDust
June 16, 2021
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Our animal friends do in fact appear to have souls (albeit simpler and without some of Man's mental faculties) and survive death, despite materialist skeptics and religious scriptures and doctrines and other fallacious sources. As just part of the evidence, there are numerous NDEer’s reports that they were reunited with beloved deceased pets during their NDEs. Lest these reports be dismissed as reassuring hallucinations generated by the unconscious mind, the general reality of NDEs has been very convincingly established by multiple types of empirical evidence, the most important of which is the numerous files of veridical NDEs where many NDEer's accounts contain facts which they could not possibly have known through their physical senses, as later verified by investigators. In fact the most important type is when the NDEer's brains were disfunctional from trauma or disease, such as cardiac arrest. A couple of examples of paranormal experiences of reuniting with beloved animals, from https://thebark.com/content/near-death-experiences-will-our-dogs-be-waiting-us : An NDE:
"...there are many tantalizing anecdotes and case reports of dogs coming to greet their human friends. For example, there was a patient named Alma, who, as she approached death, expressed a deep sense of peace. When asked where this peace came from, she told a story about having survived a fire many years earlier, during which she had lost consciousness and been burned severely. "I remember leaving my body. I could see myself on the ground below and the ambulance guys working on me. It was all very strange. Then I felt myself moving away. I saw a beautiful light and heard this amazing music that just brought me such peace. Eventually I found myself in a big yard where I’d grown up. I saw Sadie, my best childhood friend, a cute little Schnauzer. She was running toward me, wagging her tail. I’d missed her so much when she died. Yet, there she was, coming to greet me. After an emotional reunion, Alma’s mother joined them and encouraged her to “go back.” Alma didn’t want to return. “I felt so happy, so loved. I wanted to be there forever.” As her mother spoke words of encouragement, Sadie licked Alma’s face. “She was licking me like crazy and I was laughing with joy. Then I suddenly woke up in the burn unit with the worst pain I’d ever felt.” Over the following months, as she endured many agonizing treatments, including several large skin grafts, Alma clung to those moments with her mother and Sadie. “I was never afraid of death again. I know I’m going to be okay. I know Sadie and Mom are waiting for me.”"
.................. An end-of-life experience:
"Though dogs may appear in end-of-life dreams at any age, they are especially likely to arrive in the dreams of dying children.....Children often do not know someone who has already died. As a result, the deceased who have loved them best and come back to them in the end are often beloved pets. There was the case of a 13-year-old named Jessica who was having dreams about her deceased black Lab. “I dream of my old dog, Shadow, that passed away. He is in a good place,” she said. “He occasionally comes to see me, and I have a feeling he is there to say it is okay. I’m in a safe place.” Jessica’s dreams of Shadow occurred just prior to her death. They brought the child “solace and the comfort of knowing she would be entering a sheltering, safe, and familiar territory alongside her furry friend.”"
doubter
June 16, 2021
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@51 And you have just proven you are not worth arguing with You are straight wrong and delusional To the point of absurdity You don’t even know what you are quoting You are literally just wrong And you are literally insane if you think people owning pets do so because the pet looks up to them like a god. I’m sorry this is your perception. And your comment saying that Pets are subordinate also tells me that you have a very corrupted view of the relationship between humans and animals Either you are literally crazy or you are a paid troll because must NORMAL people don’t respond that way after being caught misquoting the Bible and just being plain wrongAaronS1978
June 16, 2021
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AaronS1978 Sandy do you understand that means people with riches parish like a beast This has Nothing to do with the soul of animals it means that they will be lost in probably die a very harsh death Again your logic falls short because suddenly this person doesn’t have a soul so humans can just lose their soul and not exist so there’s no eternal damnation like hell waiting for them because you don’t have a soul if you die like one of the beasts Your attempt to try to draw that animals have no soul from that once again fails because you leave out key critical portions of that entire psalm Like one through nineteen So NOPE Like for a Bible thumper you really suck
I know it's difficult to accept you love some automatons who gives you the ilusion of self importance because the poor animal is under your subordination and look at you like to god (a false god ) . Anyway my main idea was no pet or animal values more than the most despicable human being.Sandy
June 16, 2021
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Sandy do you understand that means people with riches parish like a beast This has Nothing to do with the soul of animals it means that they will be lost in probably die a very harsh death Again your logic falls short because suddenly this person doesn’t have a soul so humans can just lose their soul and not exist so there’s no eternal damnation like hell waiting for them because you don’t have a soul if you die like one of the beasts Your attempt to try to draw that animals have no soul from that once again fails because you leave out key critical portions of that entire psalm Like one through nineteen So NOPE Like for a Bible thumper you really suck Almost as bad as sev when it comes to your understanding of ChristianityAaronS1978
June 16, 2021
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And finally, at 36, Seversky asks these questions,
Is it some amorphous “unifying principle” which binds the body together(?) That sounds more like The Force from Star Wars.
To be clear of what the definition of amorphous is,
a·mor·phous adjective without a clearly defined shape or form.
You are kidding right? Your soul is precisely what gives your body the exact shape and form that your body has. Without a soul, the trillions, (upon trillions) of molecules in your body would, in fact, be amorphous, "without a clearly defined shape or form" to cohere to. You soul is exactly the reason "why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death"
The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings – Stephen L. Talbott – 2010 Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary. ,,, the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer? Despite the countless processes going on in the cell, and despite the fact that each process might be expected to “go its own way” according to the myriad factors impinging on it from all directions, the actual result is quite different. Rather than becoming progressively disordered in their mutual relations (as indeed happens after death, when the whole dissolves into separate fragments), the processes hold together in a larger unity. http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-unbearable-wholeness-of-beings
Seversky then asks,
Is it some “immaterial essence” or “animating principle” whatever that might mean?
Yes. By golly, you are getting closer to what a soul actually is. Seversky then asks,
What do you think it is and, if it exists as something, how do we detect it?
Well, as was already pointed out at the end of post 32 and continuing on through post 33, we already have 'detected' the soul, in that we have detected quantum information, which is 'non-local', (i.e. beyond any space-time materialistic explanation), and which is 'conserved', (i.e. cannot be created nor destroyed), to be ubiquitous within molecular biology, "in a wide range of important biomolecules". Please see the end of post 32, and continuing on through post 33, to see how advances in quantum biology now provide the Christian Theist with strong empirical support for his belief in the physical reality of 'immaterial' souls that are capable of living beyond the death of our material, temporal, bodies. But to go beyond the evidence I listed in posts 32 and 33, and to further, 'empirically', bolster the claim that 'non-local', i.e. 'beyond space and time', quantum principles are at play, (not only on the microscopic scale of the molecules of our material bodies,) but are also at play on the macroscopic scale of our material bodies, I can refer to a few more pieces of empirical evidence. First, as the following study found, "it is remarkable: a photon, the smallest physical entity with quantum properties of which light consists, is interacting with a biological system consisting of billions of cells, all in a warm and wet environment,” says Vaziri. “The response that the photon generates survives all the way to the level of our awareness despite the ubiquitous background noise. Any man-made detector would need to be cooled and isolated from noise to behave the same way.”,,, The researchers even go on to remark that they have no clue how such is possible, I.e. “What we want to know next is how does a biological system achieve such sensitivity? How does it achieve this in the presence of noise?"
Study suggests humans can detect even the smallest units of light – July 21, 2016 Excerpt: Research,, has shown that humans can detect the presence of a single photon, the smallest measurable unit of light. Previous studies had established that human subjects acclimated to the dark were capable only of reporting flashes of five to seven photons.,,, it is remarkable: a photon, the smallest physical entity with quantum properties of which light consists, is interacting with a biological system consisting of billions of cells, all in a warm and wet environment,” says Vaziri. “The response that the photon generates survives all the way to the level of our awareness despite the ubiquitous background noise. Any man-made detector would need to be cooled and isolated from noise to behave the same way.”,,, The gathered data from more than 30,000 trials demonstrated that humans can indeed detect a single photon incident on their eye with a probability significantly above chance. “What we want to know next is how does a biological system achieve such sensitivity? How does it achieve this in the presence of noise? http://phys.org/news/2016-07-humans-smallest.html
Moreover, the evidence that quantum mechanisms is at play on the macro level of the human brain is revealed by the following. In the following article it is noted that Multielectrode recordings have revealed zero time lag synchronization among remote cerebral cortical areas.
,,, zero time lag neuronal synchrony despite long conduction delays - 2008 Excerpt: Multielectrode recordings have revealed zero time lag synchronization among remote cerebral cortical areas. However, the axonal conduction delays among such distant regions can amount to several tens of milliseconds. It is still unclear which mechanism is giving rise to isochronous discharge of widely distributed neurons, despite such latencies,,, Remarkably, synchrony of neuronal activity is not limited to short-range interactions within a cortical patch. Interareal synchronization across cortical regions including interhemispheric areas has been observed in several tasks (7, 9, 11–14).,,, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2575223/
And as the following article states, "It’s certainly true that electrical activity in the brain is synchronised over distances that cannot be easily explained. Electrical signals travel too slowly to do this job, so something else must be at work.,,,"
The Puzzling Role Of Biophotons In The Brain - Dec. 17, 2010 Excerpt: It’s certainly true that electrical activity in the brain is synchronised over distances that cannot be easily explained. Electrical signals travel too slowly to do this job, so something else must be at work.,,, ,,, It’s a big jump to assume that photons do this job. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/422069/the-puzzling-role-of-biophotons-in-the-brain/
Moroever, evidence suggesting that quantum mechanisms are at play on the macro level of the human body itself is also revealed in the following article where it is revealed that a subject perceives a sensory stimulus on the skin at the moment the skin is touched, before the stimulus reaches the brain and before full deliberative consciousness occurs.
Do Perceptions Happen in Your Brain? - Michael Egnor - December 1, 2015 Excerpt: The sensory experiments of Benjamin Libet, a neuroscientist at U.C. San Francisco in the mid 20th century, demonstrated that a subject perceives a sensory stimulus on the skin at the moment the skin is touched, before the stimulus reaches the brain and before full deliberative consciousness occurs. Libet was flabbergasted by this result,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/12/do_perceptions101261.html
As Benjamin Libet himself remarked, "In spite of the delay for a sensory experience, subjectively there appears to be no delay."
Reflections on the interaction of the mind and brain - Benjamin Libet - 2006 Excerpt: "In spite of the delay for a sensory experience, subjectively there appears to be no delay." - Benjamin_Libet https://web.archive.org/web/20110718052421/http://www.telefonica.net/web2/lupelandia/piramidescerebro/Libet.pdf
Darwinian materialists simply have no clue how such instantaneous actions are possible at the macroscopic level of our 'material' bodies. (Shoot, Darwinists can't even explain instantaneous actions at the microscopic level of atoms and molecules). In fact, as Jim Al-Khalili, an atheist, pointed out, Darwinian biologists have not taken the principles of Quantum Mechanics into consideration at all in their studies of molecular biology, even though Erwin Schrödinger himself theorized that Quantum Principles must be at play in life way back in 1944.
Jim Al-Khalili, at the 2:30 minute mark of the following video states, ",, Physicists and Chemists have had a long time to try and get use to it (Quantum Mechanics). Biologists, on the other hand have got off lightly in my view. They are very happy with their balls and sticks models of molecules. The balls are the atoms. The sticks are the bonds between the atoms. And when they can't build them physically in the lab nowadays they have very powerful computers that will simulate a huge molecule.,, It doesn't really require much in the way of quantum mechanics in the way to explain it." At the 6:52 minute mark of the video, Jim Al-Khalili goes on to state: “To paraphrase, (Erwin Schrödinger in his book “What Is Life” (1944)), he says at the molecular level living organisms have a certain order. A structure to them that’s very different from the random thermodynamic jostling of atoms and molecules in inanimate matter of the same complexity. In fact, living matter seems to behave in its order and its structure just like inanimate cooled down to near absolute zero. Where quantum effects play a very important role. There is something special about the structure, about the order, inside a living cell. So Schrodinger speculated that maybe quantum mechanics plays a role in life”. Jim Al-Khalili – Quantum biology – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOzCkeTPR3Q
One wonders how much further along the entire field of quantum biology would be if the materialistic presuppositions of Darwinian evolution had not been hampering biologists from even studying the principles of 'quantum biology' for all these years,,, ever since Schrödinger first theorized that Quantum principles must be at play in life way back in 1944? So in conclusion, and to sum this post up, (and with what I've already written in posts 32 and 33 in mind), the Christian Theist can now appeal directly to empirical evidence from quantum biology to support his belief in the physical reality of a 'immaterial', and eternal, soul that is capable of living beyond the death of his material, temporal, body.
Mark 8:37 Is anything worth more than your soul?
bornagain77
June 16, 2021
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@Davidl1 Nope. Atheists agree with you . :))) Psalm82:6 I have said, “Ye are gods, and all of you are children of the Most High.” Psalms 49:20 Man, though he is in honor but understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.Sandy
June 16, 2021
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Psalm 69:34 "Let heaven and earth praise him, the seas and everything that moves therein." I remember in my bachelor days praying in my room... and if Spike and Hazel were in there with me I would exhort them with something like, "pray with me you wretched creatures!" LOL Andrewasauber
June 16, 2021
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@ 45 THANK YOU!!!!AaronS1978
June 16, 2021
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I'm certainly not an expert on these things, but I think there is Biblical support for the idea that animals are more than automatons. Genesis 9:5 says that God would demand an accounting from "each animal" (in addition to humans), and Genesis 9:9, 10 says that God established a covenant with both humans and animals. Both of those scriptures indicate that animals have free will and are not just automatons Nephesh, the word that is translated to soul, is used to describe both animals and humans. Ecclesiastes talks about how humans and animals have the same eventuality. I think Ecclesiastes also talks about what happens to the "spirit" of an animal when it dies. Frankly, It's hard to see anything that supports the idea that animals are just meat robots (as somebody here has posted in the past).davidl1
June 16, 2021
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@ 27 BA77 No no no no it’s not Catholic doctrine The only thing in Catholic doctrine is we have a rational soul that is eternal This is an in-house issue that is hotly debated like the death penalty I’m Catholic I am most certainly of the opinion that my fur babies and my scaly friends have souls Honestly I think all of life does Just we’re the ones made in god’s image And have the capacity to disobey God’s lawAaronS1978
June 16, 2021
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@ 38 Me thinks You might be a bit of a whackadoodle Your Response to me at 38 is odd :))))) Maybe it’s supposed to be >D or :D laughing face So a few things God does not specifically say that animals do not have souls, he also does not specifically say that we have souls short of he made us in his image Also in the Bible God does not mention that animals are nothing more than mindless automatons, and humans should think the same if they wish to follow him (be Christian Jesus is pretty silent on this matter as well) I mean nowhere in the Bible is this mentioned that once However the Bible mentions animals in a positive sense a myriad of times from helpers, symbols and sometimes in a negative sense such as the golden calve. But God works through animals to communicate with other humans and to teach lessons Animals were important enough to command Noah to gather two of each (male and female) for the ark. God also uses a whale to teach Jonah very important lesson. not to mention the very beginning of Genesis God created animals first and then offered them to Adam as companions the very thing you are condemning I also took notice of the fact that when you quoted me @ 38 you conveniently left out the part where you say I am worse than rapists pedos and murders you say I’m worse then a pedophile, a rapist, and murderer but not worse than the liar? And much like how God is silence about whether animals have souls your silence obviously means that I am not worse than a liar…………. This is obviously bad logic but it is the logic that you have deployed in regards to whether or not god’s creatures are just thrown into a waste bin or return to God The only thing you can honestly say is that God is silent on the matter to us and God isn’t exactly silent You are not the judge of nor do you know what God does with God’s creation The fate of those animals are in God’s hands and if God wishes them to be with him they will be with him You and I have no say in the matter And You calling me worse than a pedophile a murderer and rapist because of my understanding of the matter is uncalled for It is insulting because you obviously don’t understand the gravity of what those individuals do to the victims and how they destroy their rights, their freedom, and their livesAaronS1978
June 16, 2021
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ET Humans are animals.
Yes, you are. :)))Sandy
June 16, 2021
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Seversky then asks,
Does it (the soul) just drift away after death? Where does it (the soul) go?
Well, as I am sure you are well aware, in Christian theology it is held that souls do not just 'drift away', but that, ultimately, there are two final destinations for souls. Either a soul goes to heaven to live in the presence of God eternally, or else a soul is separated from God in what is termed a 'second death'. in hell. Moreover, as I've already pointed out in post 7, the Christian Theist can appeal directly to Special Relativity itself, one of our most powerful theories in science, to support his belief in the physical reality of heaven. https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/at-mind-matters-news-do-any-dogs-go-to-heaven-if-so-why/#comment-732631 Likewise, the Christian Theist can also appeal to General Relativity, again one of our most powerful theories in science, to also support his belief in an 'infinitely destructive eternity' that exists 'below' this temporal dimension. In other words, the Christian Theist can appeal directly to General Relativity to support his belief in the physical reality of hell. For instance,
Space-Time of a Black hole – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0VOn9r4dq8 “Einstein’s equation predicts that, as the astronaut reaches the singularity (of the black-hole), the tidal forces grow infinitely strong, and their chaotic oscillations become infinitely rapid. The astronaut dies and the atoms which his body is made become infinitely and chaotically distorted and mixed-and then, at the moment when everything becomes infinite (the tidal strengths, the oscillation frequencies, the distortions, and the mixing), spacetime ceases to exist.” - Kip S. Thorne – “Black Holes and Time Warps: Einstein’s Outrageous Legacy” pg. 476
What is interesting in all this is that, (while the Christian Theist can appeal directly to Special and General Relativity to support his belief in the physical reality of heaven and hell), Atheists, on the other hand, have no evidence whatsoever that the Multiverses that they have postulated to try to ‘explain. away’ the fine tuning of the universe are real, nor do Atheists have any evidence that the ‘parallel universes’ that they postulated to try to ‘explain away’ quantum wave collapse are real. In short, while Atheists may try to claim that the Christian's belief in heaven and hell is purely imaginary, the fact of the matter is that two of our most powerful theories in science both support the Christian's belief in the physical reality of heaven and hell.,,, Whereas on the other hand, the only thing that is truly imaginary, as far as the science itself is concerned, is the atheists' belief in multiverses that they postulated to try to 'explain away' God. Moreover, the atheist's 'appeal to imagination', (in order to try to avoid ever having to admit that God is real), turns out to be a sad and recurring theme for atheists. As ironic as it may seem, Imagination itself turns out to be the Atheists' primary evidence that they use to try to argue against the reality of God.
Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist (who believes Darwinian evolution to be true) is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris), who has unreliable, (i.e. illusory), beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. the illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who also must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the hopelessness of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is simply too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God (Craig, Kreeft). Who, since beauty cannot be grounded within his materialistic worldview, must also hold beauty itself to be illusory (Darwin). Bottom line, nothing is truly real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, beauty, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,, April 2021 - Detailed Defense of each claim https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/philosopher-mary-midgeley-1919-2018-on-scientism/#comment-728595 https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/from-philip-cunningham-the-human-eye-like-the-human-brain-is-a-wonder/#comment-727327
Thus, although the Darwinian Atheist and/or Methodological Naturalist may firmly believe that he is on the terra firma of science (in his appeal, even demand, for naturalistic explanations over and above God as a viable explanation), the fact of the matter is that, when examining the details of his materialistic/naturalistic worldview, it is found that Darwinists/Atheists themselves are adrift in an ocean of fantasy and imagination with no discernible anchor for reality to grab on to. This would all be very, very, humorous were it not for the very real 'eternal' consequences that are involved for their souls. Verse
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
bornagain77
June 16, 2021
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Sandy:
If I find one animal that killed a human being your “animals are perfect ” is destroyed.
Humans are animals.
To be virtuous or to sin you need reason and free will. Animals don’t have neither.
Humans are animals.ET
June 16, 2021
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Seversky asks
Is it (the soul) the entire human person minus the body(?)
Yes. As I already explained in post 32, without a 'soul' to ground their sense of personal identity the entire concept of 'self', i.e. of there being an "I", becomes a 'neuronal illusion' for the atheist. i.e. The atheist winds up in catastrophic epistemological failure! As Rene Descartes, and many others, have pointed out, our sense of self, i.e. "I am", i.e. "I exist as a real person", is the most sure thing that we can possibly know about reality. In fact, Descartes, in his infamous 'method of doubt', (which he conceptualized in his argument as an malicious demon who was fooling him about everything he was perceiving,),,,
Method of Doubt Excerpt: “Reason now leads me to think that I should hold back my assent from opinions which are not completely certain and indubitable just as carefully as I do from those which are patently false. So, for the purpose of rejecting all my opinions, it will be enough if I find in each of them at least some reason for doubt. (AT 7:18, CSM 2:12) https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/descartes-epistemology/#MethDoub The evil demon, also known as malicious demon[1] and evil genius,[2] is a concept in Cartesian philosophy. In the first of his 1641 Meditations on First Philosophy, Descartes imagines that an evil demon, of “utmost power and cunning has employed all his energies in order to deceive me.” This evil demon is imagined to present a complete illusion of an external world, so that Descartes can say, “I shall think that the sky, the air, the earth, colours, shapes, sounds and all external things are merely the delusions of dreams which he has devised to ensnare my judgement. I shall consider myself as not having hands or eyes, or flesh, or blood or senses, but as falsely believing that I have all these things.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon
In his 'method of doubt', Rene Descartes, via his malicious demon, found that he could doubt the existence of all things, including, and most importantly, doubting the existence of his very own material body, but he found that he could not doubt the fact that he existed in order to do the doubting in the first place. As Descartes explained, “we cannot doubt of our existence while we doubt….”
Cogito, ergo sum Cogito, ergo sum[a] is a Latin philosophical proposition by René Descartes usually translated into English as “I think, therefore I am”.[b] The phrase originally appeared in French as je pense, donc je suis in his Discourse on the Method, so as to reach a wider audience than Latin would have allowed.[1] It appeared in Latin in his later Principles of Philosophy. As Descartes explained, “we cannot doubt of our existence while we doubt….” A fuller version, articulated by Antoine Léonard Thomas, aptly captures Descartes’s intent: dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum (“I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am”).[c][d] The concept is also sometimes known as the cogito.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito,_ergo_sum
Descartes is hardly alone in his belief that everything we can possibly know, and/or say, about the material world must first start with the fact that we, undeniably, have conscious, immaterial, minds. Three giants of quantum mechanics, Planck, Schrodinger and Wigner, also held this view,
“No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” Max Planck (1858–1947), the main founder of quantum theory, The Observer, London, January 25, 1931 “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334. “The principal argument against materialism is not that illustrated in the last two sections: that it is incompatible with quantum theory. The principal argument is that thought processes and consciousness are the primary concepts, that our knowledge of the external world is the content of our consciousness and that the consciousness, therefore, cannot be denied. On the contrary, logically, the external world could be denied—though it is not very practical to do so. In the words of Niels Bohr, “The word consciousness, applied to ourselves as well as to others, is indispensable when dealing with the human situation.” In view of all this, one may well wonder how materialism, the doctrine that “life could be explained by sophisticated combinations of physical and chemical laws,” could so long be accepted by the majority of scientists.” – Eugene Wigner, Remarks on the Mind-Body Question, pp 167-177.
From the conclusion that he could only be certain of the fact that he existed in order to do the doubting in the first place, Rene Descartes then went on to use that conclusion from his ‘method of doubt’ as a starting point to then argue for the existence of God.
René Descartes (1596—1650) Excerpt: 5. God a. The Causal Arguments At the beginning of the Third Meditation only “I exist” and “I am a thinking thing” are beyond doubt and are, therefore, absolutely certain. From these intuitively grasped, absolutely certain truths, Descartes now goes on to deduce the existence of something other than himself, namely God. https://www.iep.utm.edu/descarte/#SH4a
It is also VERY interesting to note that Descartes' malicious demon, that he used as a philosophical tool in his 'argument from doubt', that is fooling Descartes' about everything he is perceiving, has made a modern day reappearance in the population genetics of evolutionary biology. (In some kind of poetic sense of cosmic irony), It turns out that, if Darwinian evolution were actually true, then ALL of our perceptions of reality would be illusory. Donald Hoffman has demonstrated, through numerous computer simulations, that if Darwinian evolution, and the materialistic presuppositions therein, were actually true, then ALL of our perceptions of reality would be illusory.
The Evolutionary Argument Against Reality – April 2016 The cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman uses evolutionary game theory to show that our perceptions of an independent reality must be illusions. Excerpt: “The classic argument is that those of our ancestors who saw more accurately had a competitive advantage over those who saw less accurately and thus were more likely to pass on their genes that coded for those more accurate perceptions, so after thousands of generations we can be quite confident that we’re the offspring of those who saw accurately, and so we see accurately. That sounds very plausible. But I think it is utterly false. It misunderstands the fundamental fact about evolution, which is that it’s about fitness functions — mathematical functions that describe how well a given strategy achieves the goals of survival and reproduction. The mathematical physicist Chetan Prakash proved a theorem that I devised that says: According to evolution by natural selection, an organism that sees reality as it is will never be more fit than an organism of equal complexity that sees none of reality but is just tuned to fitness. Never.” https://www.quantamagazine.org/20160421-the-evolutionary-argument-against-reality/ Donald Hoffman: Do we see reality as it is? – Video – 9:59 minute mark Quote: “Fitness is not the same thing as reality as it is, and it is fitness, and not reality as it is, that figures centrally in the equations of evolution. So, in my lab, we have run hundreds of thousands of evolutionary game simulations with lots of different randomly chosen worlds and organisms that compete for resources in those worlds. Some of the organisms see all of the reality. Others see just part of the reality. And some see none of the reality. Only fitness. Who wins? Well I hate to break it to you but perception of reality goes extinct. In almost every simulation, organisms that see none of reality, but are just tuned to fitness, drive to extinction that perceive reality as it is. So the bottom line is, evolution does not favor veridical, or accurate perceptions. Those (accurate) perceptions of reality go extinct. Now this is a bit stunning. How can it be that not seeing the world accurately gives us a survival advantage?” https://youtu.be/oYp5XuGYqqY?t=601
There is a 'small' problem for Darwinists with the fact that, if Darwinian evolution were true, then ALL of our perceptions would be illusory. Reliable observation happens to be an absolutely vital, and necessary, cornerstone of the scientific method itself.
Steps of the Scientific Method Observation/Research Hypothesis Prediction Experimentation Conclusion http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/scientific_method.html
Thus, since the reductive materialism of Darwinian evolution denies that we have ‘reliable observations, and instead claims that ALL of out perceptions of reality are illusory, then clearly Darwinian evolution can never be based upon the scientific method itself. And therefore, to state the obvious, Darwinian evolution is, once again, (in a rather dramatic fashion), falsified in its claim to be a true scientific theory. Moreover, completely contrary to what Hoffman found for our perceptions if Darwinian theory were actually true, it turns out that accurate perception, i.e. conscious observation, far from being unreliable and illusory, is experimentally found to be far more integral to reality, i.e. far more reliable of reality, than the mathematics of population genetics predicted. As the following experiment found, “reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,”.
New Mind-blowing Experiment Confirms That Reality Doesn’t Exist If You Are Not Looking at It – June 3, 2015 Excerpt: The results of the Australian scientists’ experiment, which were published in the journal Nature Physics, show that this choice is determined by the way the object is measured, which is in accordance with what quantum theory predicts. “It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,” said lead researcher Dr. Andrew Truscott in a press release.,,, “The atoms did not travel from A to B. It was only when they were measured at the end of the journey that their wave-like or particle-like behavior was brought into existence,” he said. Thus, this experiment adds to the validity of the quantum theory and provides new evidence to the idea that reality doesn’t exist without an observer. http://themindunleashed.org/2015/06/new-mind-blowing-experiment-confirms-that-reality-doesnt-exist-if-you-are-not-looking-at-it.html
Apparently science itself could care less if atheistic materialists are forced, because of the mathematics of population genetics, to believe that ALL their perceptions of reality are illusory! Of personal note, I believe that Rene Descartes, if he were alive on earth today, would find it very humorous that his 'method of doubt' is playing out in science. And I think he would find in doubly humorous that it is playing with none other than that atheistic theory of Darwinian Evolution. Indeed Darwinian evolution itself is playing the a leading role of his malicious demon. Which is to say, apparently Descartes’s malicious demon that is fooling our minds about EVERYTHING we are perceiving turns out to be none other than Darwinian evolution itself! The historical irony of how the entire situation between Descartes and Darwinian evolution has played out is simply too delicious.
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Of note, I will, if possible, try to address some of Seversky's other questions later.bornagain77
June 16, 2021
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AaronS1978June 15, 2021 at 4:58 pm By the way the only one being a judge here is you……………….
That makes you kind of awful
you failed to see that I was setting a trap for you
:))))Sandy
June 16, 2021
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Soooooooooo you don’t understand the soul. Why would anyone. Maybe when we start to truly understand QP and the mind then and only then would we start to understand the soul. All livings have something. It’s part of our Intuition. We as humans have something a bit more. I don’t have an exact answer. Why would I. Why would any one. it is something only God knows and we only have a glimpse of But Your skepticism is no more proof it doesn’t exist as my skepticism of dark flow is proof that it doesn’t exist either Both can be described as hypothetical answers to observations we as humans don’t quite understand For me I think Thomas Aquinas came close to getting right However your descriptions and mocking of the soul are as immature as those descriptions deployed to describe god and Jesus as magic men in the skyAaronS1978
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