At Mind Matters News: Do any dogs go to heaven? If so, why?

Bornagain77/32

Seversky states that, “I don’t believe in the existence of souls – whatever that means –”. From his “whatever that means” statement it is clear that Seversky has no clue why the existence of souls are postulated as being necessary in the first place.

I'm not the only one judging by the different concepts of what a soul is and/or does. Is it the entire human person minus the body when that fails? Does it just drift away after death? Where does it go? Is it some amorphous "unifying principle" which binds the body together. That sounds more like The Force from Star Wars. Is it some "immaterial essence" or "animating principle" whatever that might mean? What do you think it is and, if it exists as something, how do we detect it?Seversky

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By the way the only one being a judge here is you………………. Your response to me is not that of a loving compassionate Christian but that of a Judge mental tyrant I mean you just said I was worse than a pedophile, rapist, and a murder That makes you kind of awfulAaronS1978

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Oooooooh Sandy you poor thing take a closer look at my comment and you will realize I was being a sarcastic jerk If you read through what I said you realize that I had said rapist pedos murders and LIARS Now think a little bit, think about what that means If the criminal was a liar and they told me that they are a liar then I would let them drown But if they said that they weren’t a liar well why would liar tell me the truth? I would then let them drown It’s a lose, lose, heads I win tails you lose set up In your attempt to make me look Hypocritical you failed to see that I was setting a trap for you I already realized what you were attempting to do and I gave it right back to you as a joke Good on you though Second of all common sense if you got a murder on your boat you’re gonna die that’s a matter of self-preservation not playing God But that’s just a dash of common sense Still a Christian and I don’t believe in the death penaltyAaronS1978

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As well, DNA itself does not belong to the world of classical mechanics but instead belongs to the world of quantum mechanics. In the following video, at the 22:20 minute mark, Dr Rieper shows why the high temperatures of biological systems do not prevent DNA from having quantum entanglement and then at 24:00 minute mark Dr Rieper goes on to remark that practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it.

"What happens is this classical information (of DNA) is embedded, sandwiched, into the quantum information (of DNA). And most likely this classical information is never accessed because it is inside all the quantum information. You can only access the quantum information or the electron clouds and the protons. So mathematically you can describe that as a quantum/classical state." Elisabeth Rieper – Classical and Quantum Information in DNA – video (Longitudinal Quantum Information resides along the entire length of DNA discussed at the 19:30 minute mark; at 24:00 minute mark Dr Rieper remarks that practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it) https://youtu.be/2nqHOnVTxJE?t=1176

What is so devastating to the reductive presuppositions of Darwinists with the finding of pervasive quantum coherence, (and/or quantum entanglement and/or quantum information), within molecular biology, is that quantum coherence is a non-local, beyond space and time, effect that requires a beyond space and time cause in order to explain its existence. As the following paper entitled “Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory” stated, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,”

Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory – 29 October 2012 Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” http://www.quantumlah.org/highlight/121029_hidden_influences.php

Darwinists, with their reductive materialistic framework, simply have no beyond space and time cause that they can appeal so as to be able to explain the non-local quantum coherence, (and/or entanglement and/or information), that is now found to be ubiquitous within biology. Whereas Christians readily do have a beyond space and time cause that they can appeal to so as to explain quantum entanglement. As Colossians 1:17 states, “He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

it is also important to realize that quantum information is also conserved. As the following article states, "In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed."

Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time - 2011 Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html

The implication of finding 'non-local', (i.e. beyond space and time), and ‘conserved’, (i.e. cannot be created nor destroyed), quantum information in molecular biology on such a massive scale, in every important biomolecule in our bodies, is fairly, and pleasantly, obvious. That pleasant implication, of course, being the fact that we now have very strong empirical evidence suggesting that we do indeed have an eternal soul that is capable of living beyond the death of our material bodies. As Stuart Hameroff states in the following article, “the quantum information,,, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed.,,, it's possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.”

Leading Scientists Say Consciousness Cannot Die It Goes Back To The Universe - Oct. 19, 2017 - Spiritual Excerpt: “Let’s say the heart stops beating. The blood stops flowing. The microtubules lose their quantum state. But the quantum information, which is in the microtubules, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed. It just distributes and dissipates to the universe at large. If a patient is resuscitated, revived, this quantum information can go back into the microtubules and the patient says, “I had a near death experience. I saw a white light. I saw a tunnel. I saw my dead relatives.,,” Now if they’re not revived and the patient dies, then it's possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.” - Stuart Hameroff - Quantum Entangled Consciousness - Life After Death - video (5:00 minute mark) (of note, this video is no longer available for public viewing) https://radaronline.com/exclusives/2012/10/life-after-death-soul-science-morgan-freeman/

Thus in conclusion, although Seversky may see no need to postulate a 'soul', we find that, without a 'soul' to appeal to, the entire reductive materialistic framework of Darwinists collapses in on itself from the weight of the philosophical, mathematical, and physical objections against the reductive materialistic framework. Moreover, we now find, via advances in Quantum Biology, physical evidence for the existence of souls. In short, Seversky's denial of the existence of souls is contradicted on numerous levels from several different disciplines of study, especially including empirical science itself. Verse:

Mark 8:37 Is anything worth more than your soul?

bornagain77

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Seversky states that, "I don’t believe in the existence of souls – whatever that means –". From his "whatever that means" statement it is clear that Seversky has no clue why the existence of souls are postulated as being necessary in the first place. There is a rather gaping hole in the reductive materialistic explanations of Darwinists. Without a 'soul' to appeal to, Darwinists simply have no 'unifying principle' in order to explain why the trillions, (upon trillions), of protein, DNA, etc.. etc.., molecules of a human body cohere together as a unified single whole. As Stephen Talbott put the 'elephant in the living room' question confronting the reductive materialistic explanations of Darwinists, "the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer?"

The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings - Stephen L. Talbott - 2010 Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary. ,,, the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer? Despite the countless processes going on in the cell, and despite the fact that each process might be expected to “go its own way” according to the myriad factors impinging on it from all directions, the actual result is quite different. Rather than becoming progressively disordered in their mutual relations (as indeed happens after death, when the whole dissolves into separate fragments), the processes hold together in a larger unity. http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-unbearable-wholeness-of-beings

Darwinists, with their reductive materialistic explanations, simply have no "bottom-up' way of getting from the level of material particles in a body to the 'top-down' unifying principle that is necessary to explain why the material particles of a living creature cohere together as a single unified whole 'for precisely a lifetime'. i.e. Darwinists simply have no 'soul' to appeal to. In fact, since Darwinists have no way of getting from their 'bottom-up' materialistic explanations to the 'top-down' unifying principle that is necessary to explain why the trillions, (and trillions), of molecules of any living organisms cohere together as a single unified whole 'for precisely a lifetime', then the entire concept of personhood also becomes 'illusory' for the Darwinists. As Dr. Dennis Bonnette explains, "It turns out that if every part of you, down to sub-atomic parts, are still what they were when they weren't in you, in other words every ion,,, every single atom that was in the universe,, that has now become part of your living body, is still what is was originally. It hasn't undergone what metaphysicians call a 'substantial change'. So you aren't Richard Dawkins. You are just carbon and neon and sulfur and oxygen and all these individual atoms still. You can spout a philosophy that says scientific materialism, but there aren't any scientific materialists to pronounce it.,,,"

Atheistic Materialism – Does Richard Dawkins Exist? – video 37:51 minute mark Quote: "It turns out that if every part of you, down to sub-atomic parts, are still what they were when they weren't in you, in other words every ion,,, every single atom that was in the universe,, that has now become part of your living body, is still what is was originally. It hasn't undergone what metaphysicians call a 'substantial change'. So you aren't Richard Dawkins. You are just carbon and neon and sulfur and oxygen and all these individual atoms still. You can spout a philosophy that says scientific materialism, but there aren't any scientific materialists to pronounce it.,,, That's why I think they find it kind of embarrassing to talk that way. Nobody wants to stand up there and say, "You know, I'm not really here". - Dr. Dennis Bonnette https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVCnzq2yTCg&t=37m51s

Hey, you don't have to take Dr. Dennis Bonnette's word for it, Richard Dawkins himself agrees with materialistic philosophers who hold that consciousness is an illusion that is generated by your material brain. And as should be needless to say, if your entire conscious experience of the world is merely an illusion that is generated by your brain, then that necessary makes your entire concept of yourself as a person a 'neuronal illusion' also.

At the 23:33 minute mark of the following video, Richard Dawkins agrees with materialistic philosophers who say that: “consciousness is an illusion” A few minutes later Rowan Williams asks Dawkins ”If consciousness is an illusion…what isn’t?”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWN4cfh1Fac&t=22m57s

To drive this point home, here a few more quotes by Atheists insanely denying that they really exist as real persons,

The Brain: The Mystery of Consciousness - STEVEN PINKER - Monday, Jan. 29, 2007 Part II THE ILLUSION OF CONTROL Another startling conclusion from the science of consciousness is that the intuitive feeling we have that there's an executive "I" that sits in a control room of our brain, scanning the screens of the senses and pushing the buttons of the muscles, is an illusion. http://www.academia.edu/2794859/The_Brain_The_Mystery_of_Consciousness "There is no self in, around, or as part of anyone’s body. There can’t be. So there really isn’t any enduring self that ever could wake up morning after morning worrying about why it should bother getting out of bed. The self is just another illusion, like the illusion that thought is about stuff or that we carry around plans and purposes that give meaning to what our body does. Every morning’s introspectively fantasized self is a new one, remarkably similar to the one that consciousness ceased fantasizing when we fell sleep sometime the night before. Whatever purpose yesterday’s self thought it contrived to set the alarm last night, today’s newly fictionalized self is not identical to yesterday’s. It’s on its own, having to deal with the whole problem of why to bother getting out of bed all over again.,,, - A.Rosenberg, The Atheist’s Guide to Reality, ch.10

Thus, although Seversky may find no need for a soul, without a soul to appeal to the atheist simply has no unifying principle to appeal to to explain why the trillions, (upon trillions), of molecules of the body cohere together as a single unified whole 'for precisely a lifetime'. Moreover, without a soul to appeal to, the atheist also loses the ability ground their own sense of self identity. i.e. The entire concept of 'personhood' becomes a 'neuronal illusion' for the Atheistic materialists. Moreover, besides this rather powerful philosophical argument that the reductive materialistic explanations of Darwinian evolution can't possibly be true, with the extension of Godel's incompleteness theorem into physics, mathematics and physics also join in and prove that the reductive materialistic explanations of Darwinian evolution can't possibly be true, Specifically, in the following article sub-titled, "Gödel and Turing enter quantum physics", it is now proven that “even a perfect and complete description of the microscopic properties of a material is not enough to predict its macroscopic behaviour.,,,” and that “the insurmountable difficulty lies precisely in the derivation of macroscopic properties from a microscopic description.",

Quantum physics problem proved unsolvable: Gödel and Turing enter quantum physics - December 9, 2015 Excerpt: A mathematical problem underlying fundamental questions in particle and quantum physics is provably unsolvable,,, It is the first major problem in physics for which such a fundamental limitation could be proven. The findings are important because they show that even a perfect and complete description of the microscopic properties of a material is not enough to predict its macroscopic behaviour.,,, "We knew about the possibility of problems that are undecidable in principle since the works of Turing and Gödel in the 1930s," added Co-author Professor Michael Wolf from Technical University of Munich. "So far, however, this only concerned the very abstract corners of theoretical computer science and mathematical logic. No one had seriously contemplated this as a possibility right in the heart of theoretical physics before. But our results change this picture. From a more philosophical perspective, they also challenge the reductionists' point of view, as the insurmountable difficulty lies precisely in the derivation of macroscopic properties from a microscopic description." http://phys.org/news/2015-12-quantum-physics-problem-unsolvable-godel.html

Moreover, besides the reductive materialistic explanations of Darwinian evolution, and their implicit denial of the existence of the 'soul', being philosophically, mathematically, and physically, impossible, there is also the fact that Christian Theists can now appeal directly to empirical evidence to support their belief in the physical reality of a immortal soul. Specifically, 'non-local', (i.e. beyond space and time), and 'conserved', (i.e. cannot be created nor destroyed), quantum information is now found to be ubiquitous within molecular biology. As the following more recent 2015 paper entitled, “Quantum criticality in a wide range of important biomolecules” stated, “Most of the molecules taking part actively in biochemical processes are tuned exactly to the transition point and are critical conductors,” and the researchers further commented that “finding even one (biomolecule) that is in the quantum critical state by accident is mind-bogglingly small and, to all intents and purposes, impossible.,, of the order of 10^-50 of possible small biomolecules and even less for proteins,”,,,

Quantum criticality in a wide range of important biomolecules – Mar. 6, 2015 Excerpt: “Most of the molecules taking part actively in biochemical processes are tuned exactly to the transition point and are critical conductors,” they say. That’s a discovery that is as important as it is unexpected. “These findings suggest an entirely new and universal mechanism of conductance in biology very different from the one used in electrical circuits.” The permutations of possible energy levels of biomolecules is huge so the possibility of finding even one (biomolecule) that is in the quantum critical state by accident is mind-bogglingly small and, to all intents and purposes, impossible.,, of the order of 10^-50 of possible small biomolecules and even less for proteins,”,,, “what exactly is the advantage that criticality confers?” https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/the-origin-of-life-and-the-hidden-role-of-quantum-criticality-ca4707924552

And as this follow up 2018 article stated, "There is no obvious evolutionary reason why a protein should evolve toward a quantum-critical state, and there is no chance at all that the state could occur randomly.,,,"

Quantum Critical Proteins - Stuart Lindsay - Professor of Physics and Chemistry at Arizona State University - 2018 Excerpt: The difficulty with this proposal lies in its improbability. Only an infinitesimal density of random states exists near the critical point.,, Gábor Vattay et al. recently examined a number of proteins and conducting and insulating polymers.14 The distribution for the insulators and conductors were as expected, but the functional proteins all fell on the quantum-critical distribution. Such a result cannot be a consequence of chance.,,, WHAT OF quantum criticality? Vattay et al. carried out electronic structure calculations for the very large protein used in our work. They found that the distribution of energy-level spacings fell on exactly the quantum-critical distribution, implying that this protein is also quantum critical. There is no obvious evolutionary reason why a protein should evolve toward a quantum-critical state, and there is no chance at all that the state could occur randomly.,,, http://inference-review.com/article/quantum-critical-proteins Gábor Vattay et al., “Quantum Criticality at the Origin of Life,” Journal of Physics: Conference Series 626 (2015); Gábor Vattay, Stuart Kauffman, and Samuli Niiranen, “Quantum Biology on the Edge of Quantum Chaos,” PLOS One 9, no. 3 (2014)

bornagain77

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it depends if the criminal is a

Hahaha...so you play God's role and decide the death of a human being that maybe after this event would have returned to God. You are worse than a murderer , pedo or rapist but you feel virtuous because you are a pet lover? Please don't tell others that you are Christian . You are not.Sandy

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@ Sandy “In your boat is only one place left ,you have to choose between a criminal that is drowning and your beloved pet. Who you choose” This resolves literally nothing, it’s a version of the trolley exercise thought experiment. My choosing a human over the animal has nothing to do with whether the animal returns its creator. A Darwinist can simply cry kin selection and I would pick the human too. Second it depends if the criminal is a rapist or pedo, murderer, or liar. If so, they get to stay in the drink and Checkers gets to stay dry in the boat with me @BA77 When your right you are right I think he is a chat bot or paid to be a token atheistsAaronS1978

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That’s why animals, et al, are perfect

If I find one animal that killed a human being your "animals are perfect " is destroyed.

They don’t need to be Redeemed. They don’t sin.

To be virtuous or to sin you need reason and free will. Animals don't have neither.Sandy

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BA77, My questions are out of ignorance. I don't know what the Christian version of heaven is, or if there is discussion of it, or several interpretations, so I'm asking questions.William J Murray

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WJM apparently takes Seversky shallow view of Christianity seriously and asks, "So, In the Christian version of Heaven, is there no wildlife?" That is not my version of Christianity, and that is not what I've heard from extremely deep Judeo-Christian Near Death Experiences of extremely beautiful cities and of extremely beautiful 'countryside'. And frankly I've never heard any preacher or priest ever preach against wildlife in heaven. I've heard simply that there will be no death nor evil, nor etc.., in heaven. How 'no wildlife in heaven' 'supposedly' became Catholic doctrine I have no idea. As the OP itself mentions, CS Lewis himself, not a minor 20th century apologist for Christianity, opposed this view. I myself can think of a New Testament scripture right off the top of my head that seemingly contradicts this supposed 'doctrine' of the Catholic Church.

Matthew 10:29-31 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

bornagain77

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Sandy:

No animal have soul ,all are automatons

That is your opinion but that is all it is.ET

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Anyone ever see the movie "What Dreams May Come" with Robin Williams? In that movie, the character played by Robin Williams dies and finds himself in heaven. He learns that his wife committed suicide and is in hell. Robin goes to hell to try and save his wife, even though he's told that once you go there, you can't get back or bring a loved one back, it's never been done before. Robin's position is that he'd rather spend eternity in hell with his wife than spend eternity in heaven without her, because she *is* his heaven. That's me. Heaven is meaningless to me without my wife. There's no condition or pain hell can possibly serve up that compares to the pain of even the idea of not being with her, much less the experience itself.William J Murray

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So, In the Christian version of Heaven, is there no wildlife? No butterflies, cardinals, blue jays, buffalo, whales or elephants? What about trees, flowers, grass? Is there no food? No steak and potatoes, lobster? We never get to see or experience a lion again? And what is this about spouses? Do marriages exist in heaven or not? Are there movies, TV, books to read? Rock 'n' roll bands? Is all the music orchestral? Is there no night time, or any temperature variance? What about free will? Also, do we remember the people we love that didn't get into heaven, or do we have to live with the knowledge and grief that they are either gone or suffering for eternity? These are the kinds of specifics that it might be nice to know before having to make any eternal choices on the matter.William J Murray

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Aaron asks Seversky, "are you not reading what I’m writing about this?" Aaron, after years of dealing with Seversky I can tell you with certainty that, "No, Seversky does not ever read, or at least he does not act as if he has ever read, anything that might seriously challenge his atheistic, even anti-Christian, worldview." He repeats, basically, the same talking points against Christianity over and over again no matter how carefully KF and others have repeatedly refuted his talking points. Seversky's never really goes into any philosophical nor scientific depth in trying to defend his Atheism, but his main talking point is always something superficial. Something superficial that is usually something along the line of Richard Dawkin's argument in his book "The God Delusion" of "I find the God of the Old Testament to be a 'malevolent bully' and therefore I don't believe in Him". In short, Seversky's primary reason for not believing in God, again from what I can tell, is simply a matter of 'emotional' preference for Seversky, not a matter of objectively weighing the evidence. Seversky, for superficial emotional reasons, simply does not personally want God to exist no matter what the scientific evidence may say to the contrary of his position, nor how compelling the philosophical arguments may be against his position. In short, Seversky has some kind of 'cosmic authority problem' against God that is preventing him from ever being scientifically and philosophically reasonable with those who challenge him.

"I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.” (”The Last Word” by Thomas Nagel, Oxford University Press: 1997)”

bornagain77

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Re: Cats If you have an NDE and see things in the room or building around you (while the eyes of your body are shut), which are corroborated afterwards, then you will have perfect evidence of what is meant by "Soul" - it is You....sans your physical body (which you will eventually leave to be deposited in a grave or urn). Christian theology teaches that no sin enters Heaven. Humans, having self consciousness and Free Will, can choose to love others (Love) or love themselves over others (Not Love). Mankind as a connected body of sorts - like an M Field (Morphogenetic Field) - shares this common, connected consciousness with its mix of Love and Sin, which caused a separation from God, the Creative Source, the All-Pure, Undivided, Unity Who is Love. This is known as "Original Sin." Christian theology teaches that God "so Loved the world" that He Incarnated in order to join mankind and then to draw that M Field, all mankind, back into Union with the Creative Source of All, by living a life of perfect Love and Perfect Accord with the Divinely Willed Plan for His earthly life, rather than following self-centered will. It was in this way that mankind was "redeemed" from Original Sin. This is called in Christian theology, The Redemption of Man. Because man can sin, live feeling selfish, hateful, proud, etc., Christian theology teaches that a human person must be Redeemed from sin and be free of sin to enter into Heaven, because Sin has no entry there. So this becomes a Teaching in Christianity, that only persons who are Redeemed and free of sin go to Heaven after they leave their earthly body. This became a doctrine or law of the Church. Since animals are not Redeemed, they don't fit the qualifications for entrance to Heaven - as far as the theology goes - so they are excluded from the equation. But although it's true that animals are not Redeemed - they don't need to be. They don't sin. They don't have the free will and self consciousness to willfully choose self over another. They don't tear themselves away from The Vine. So animals, et al, don't participate in the theological categories of sin and Redemption, so that is why they are mot included in the theological discussion about "who enters Heaven." But animals have never been separated from the Creative Source, from God. They live Of Him, with Him, and In Him. When their earthly bodies are finished with their part here, they live On in the Eternity of God's Divine Life of Love. Out of Love, by Love and for Love, the physical UniVerse was extended to manifest God's Beauty, Power, Sanctity and Being. Cats, et al, are all united with God. They do not have the Free Willed Self Consciousness which can willfully live as an autonomous being. That's why animals, et al, are perfect - because the Creator acts through them, nihil obstat. Cats, et al, are never separated from the Creator. They "live and move and have their being" in God. God Lives them. Like a Vine living through its branch - when kitty's body is finished participating in the MasterWork of the Divine Truth and Beauty, kitty lives forever in the Bliss and Eternal Life of the Creator, being beautiful abd unique Eternally, and being Loved eternally. People have reported during NDE's seeing their Loved Ones in Heaven with their pets. Once kitty has come into being by the Divine Will, kitty will remain alive Forever in the Forever Home of his/her Divine Creator. Once Alive, Always Alive. Once created, Life is Alive Eternally. Life is Life - not Death. Humans, as image and likeness of the Creator, with self-consciousness and Free Will - who are capable of Loving (or not), can and do live in a way as though separated from "He Who Is," "I Am Who Am," God. We live as though separate from the One Who beats our heart and moves our lungs, divides our cells and grows our hair. Our self will, our moral life effects who we are. If we are one with Love when we die to earthly existence, we will go back to the Source of our life and being - to God's Eternal Life - Heaven. (Been there, done that - NDE). If the Love that You are has morphed into self-centeredness, you will not be able to enter into the Divine Love of Heaven. You can go to be purified of selfishness (Purgation), or if you choose your self over the Creator, He will let You have Your freely willed wish, and you will go to spend the Absolute Here and Now where Love is Not....with all the other Souls who also choose loving themselves over Actual Love (not a happy place). So this is why cats and others are not mentioned in the Redeemed Group that go to Heaven. They don't need to be Redeemed. They don't sin. But they are Never separated from God, along with the rest of the Beautiful Creatures Whom He has Created out of "the Highest Wisdom and Love which Cannot be Contained." Once Alive, always Alive. They will live on in Heaven. For man, though, it's up to us where we spend the Absolute Here and Now: with our Creator and all His Beautiful Creatures, or without Him, with "me, myself and I," the Unholy Trinity, and all the others who are like-minded. Without Love, eternal life is Hell. Thank God for kitties, each one a living work of Art. How Beautiful the Artist Who has Created them all!marian

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Everything I wrote in response to Sandy is true

Pets are irrelevants compared with people.

It's very easy to resolve our fight by responding to this question: In your boat is only one place left ,you have to choose between a criminal that is drowning and your beloved pet. Who you choose?Sandy

June 15, 2021

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Ok Sev learn something ACCURATE about religion would you! Here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_of_Assisi A Whole saint dedicated to the well being of animals Everything I wrote in response to Sandy is true You can read genesis Christianity DOES NOT discard pets as trivial Or are you just picking what Sandy says because it personally fits your distain for religion? If you are your biased is not welcome And if there is no soul (fortunately it doesn’t depend on your belief) then your forever home is dirt and everything you care about is ultimately meaningless and amounts to nothingAaronS1978

June 15, 2021

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Sev are you not reading what I’m writing about thisAaronS1978

June 15, 2021

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I am thankful to have had the good fortune to share my life with a number of cats over the years and they have proven to be more congenial companions than many of the humans I have known. I don't believe in the existence of souls - whatever that means - and I would not be much interested in a heaven that did not provide the ultimate "forever home" for them or a God that, by Christian belief, apparently discards them as worthless.Seversky

June 14, 2021

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You understand that God uses animals to communicate with people correct and has done so multiple times even in the Bible It also says in the Bible not to abuse his creation It says nothing about pets but we are to be good stewards over all that exists Which means his creation which he has left us as good stewards of this includes animals They’re not really pets, they never really belong to us, we are to take care of them And in the garden of Eden animals are presented as companions before God makes “woman” Eve from Adam’s rib I do not take a literal interpretation of the fall of man but I use it as an example showing that animals were presented first They are by no means irrelevant and we are not good stewards if we think they areAaronS1978

June 14, 2021

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If souls are said to be real (and the evidence from NDEs, SDEs, after death communications, mediumship, past life memories….etc provide good reason for believing they are) then I believe all living things have one. Any Heaven/afterlife without my furry friends is one I don’t want to be a part of.RoyRogersMcFreely

June 14, 2021

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But just from experience there are more humans I can’t stand then there are animals that I love

And that was oddly arrogant statement

True.

Who gave you that authority and I know it wasn’t God or Jesus

Your pet who you love more than me. “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. Nowhere in the Bible Jesus say something about your pet . Pets are irrelevants compared with people. You would have an excuse if you were a child.

But just from experience there are more humans I can’t stand then there are animals that I love

Yep, because your pet gives you a false sense of importance and when you are bored just send it to his cage without explanations. :)))Sandy

June 14, 2021

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Are you one of those people that takes a literal interpretation on loving thy neighbor to the point of absolutely having no emotions outside of love for them First of all Jesus says love the neighbor like I have loved you to the Apostles I admit freely I am not capable of doing this But I will try And also I can love you but I don’t have to like you Me not liking you does not determine whether or not I am Christian and if you think it does you have a very failed understanding of ChristianityAaronS1978

June 14, 2021

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I think you don’t understand that you can’t determine whether I’m a Christian or not I’m a Christian And that was oddly arrogant statement you made which is exactly why I have the perception of people I do Why do you believe you get to determine who is Christian and who is not? Especially on this matter Who gave you that authority and I know it wasn’t God or JesusAaronS1978

June 14, 2021

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But just from experience there are more humans I can’t stand then there are animals that I love

Well then I guess you don't know that you are not Christian. Yet.Sandy

June 14, 2021

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@ Sandy I am a staunch Catholic born and raised And I’m just gonna have to disagree with you on that, God is the most important thing to me, God is the source of meaning for everything that I do But just from experience there are more humans I can’t stand then there are animals that I love Even when I was a child I’ve had a natural knack for animals like my mom Even hostile animals migrate to me and calm done While on the other hand I was tortured and bullied for years by humans and I have experienced many ill from humans God created all of the creatures on the earth He just gave humans the option to be jerks Well animals can be jerks to And I understand you are probably of Thomas Aquinas’ Philosophy of the soul which I do agree with all up until you get to the material soul of the animalAaronS1978

June 14, 2021

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People who bind to pets too much they actually don't have a healthy relation with God and other human beings. There is an "emptiness" of heart that can't be filled by a pet, only by God.Sandy

June 14, 2021

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While I understand that animals do not have immortal souls as humans have, I do hope that somehow my deceased cats (and all creatures), Spike and Hazel, have found rest at home with their Creator. BTW, I plan on surprising my lovely wife with two kittens for her birthday in August. Andrewasauber

June 14, 2021

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Now that we have outlined the basics of Special Relativity, (i.e. Time Dilation and Space-time curvature), it is VERY interesting to note that there is a VERY strong correspondence between what we now know to be physically true for special relativity and what Near Death Experiencers tell us happened to them 'on the other side' of death. In the following video clip, Mickey Robinson gives us his 'sobering' Near Death testimony of what it felt like for him to experience a ‘timeless eternity’.

‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’ In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video (testimony starts at 27:45 minute mark) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voak1RM-pXo

And here are a few more quotes from people who have experienced Near Death, that speak of how their perception of time was radically altered during their experience.

‘Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything – past, present, future – exists simultaneously.’ – Kimberly Clark Sharp – Near Death Experiencer ‘There is no way to tell whether minutes, hours or years go by. Existence is the only reality and it is inseparable from the eternal now.’ – John Star – NDE Experiencer

As well, Near Death Experiencers also frequently mention going through a tunnel, towards a extremely bright light, to a higher heavenly dimension:

Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? – article with video Excerpt: “Very often as they’re moving through the tunnel, there’s a very bright mystical light … not like a light we’re used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns…” – Jeffrey Long M.D. – has studied NDE’s extensively – abcnews nightline The Tunnel and the Near-Death Experience Excerpt: One of the nine elements that generally occur during NDEs is the tunnel experience. This involves being drawn into darkness through a tunnel, at an extremely high speed, until reaching a realm of radiant golden-white light. – near death research

In the following video, Barbara Springer gives her 'sobering' testimony as to what it felt like for her to go through the tunnel:

“I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.” – Barbara Springer – (7:40 minute mark) Near-Death Experience Documentary: “Shadows: Perceptions of Near-Death Experiencers” https://youtu.be/HR0x57aMv-k?t=460

And in the following audio clip, Vicki Noratuk, who has been blind from birth, (besides being able to see for the first time in her life during her Near Death Experience), also gives testimony of going through a tunnel at a "tremendously, horrifically, rapid rate of speed" to a higher heavenly dimension.

“I was in a body, and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head, it had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And it was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.”,,, “And then this vehicle formed itself around me. Vehicle is the only thing, or tube, or something, but it was a mode of transportation that’s for sure! And it formed around me. And there was no one in it with me. I was in it alone. But I knew there were other people ahead of me and behind me. What they were doing I don’t know, but there were people ahead of me and people behind me, but I was alone in my particular conveyance. And I could see out of it. And it went at a tremendously, horrifically, rapid rate of speed. But it wasn’t unpleasant. It was beautiful in fact.,, I was reclining in this thing, I wasn’t sitting straight up, but I wasn’t lying down either. I was sitting back. And it was just so fast. I can’t even begin to tell you where it went or whatever it was just fast!” – Vicki’s NDE – Blind since birth – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e65KhcCS5-Y

And the following people, who both had NDEs, both testify that they firmly believed that they were in a higher heavenly dimension that is above this three-dimensional world and that the primary reason that they have a very difficult time explaining what their Near Death Experiences felt like to other people is because we simply don’t currently have the words to properly describe what that higher, heavenly, dimension actually feels like

“Regardless, it is impossible for me to adequately describe what I saw and felt. When I try to recount my experiences now, the description feels very pale. I feel as though I’m trying to describe a three-dimensional experience while living in a two-dimensional world. The appropriate words, descriptions and concepts don’t even exist in our current language. I have subsequently read the accounts of other people’s near-death experiences and their portrayals of heaven and I able to see the same limitations in their descriptions and vocabulary that I see in my own.” Mary C. Neal, MD – To Heaven And Back pg. 71 “Well, when I was taking geometry, they always told me there were only three dimensions, and I always just accepted that. But they were wrong. There are more… And that is why so hard for me to tell you this. I have to describe with words that are three-dimensional. That’s as close as I can get to it, but it’s really not adequate.” John Burke – Imagine Heaven pg. 51 – quoting a Near Death Experiencer

For me it is simply uncanny that there would be such a strong correspondence between what we know to be true from special relativity and what is reported to be true from NDEers of a 'timeless eternity' and of going through a tunnel to a higher, ‘heavenly’, dimension that is above this 3-D temporal realm during their NDEs. I would go so far as to say that such a strong correspondence between the Special Relativity and their NDE testimonies, (since these people, in all likelihood, don't know the intricacies of special relativity), is proof, in and of itself, that their NDE testimonies of a heavenly paradise above this temporal dimension are trustworthy and true. And, as should be needless to say, all of this evidence puts the 'scientific' atheist in a severe bind in regards to his 'non-belief' in heaven. In short, the 'science' of special relativity itself, one of our most powerful theories in science, strongly supports the Christian Theist in his belief in the physical reality of a heavenly paradise that exists above this temporal realm, and strongly disconfirms the Atheist's non-belief in heaven. Verse:

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

bornagain77

June 14, 2021

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Before we ask if humans will be reunited with their beloved pets in heaven, (I'm personally in the affirmative camp), we first have to ask, "Is heaven even a real physical place in the first place?" That most atheists claim to be 'scientific' and also claim to not believe in God, then that pretty much compels us to ask, "Is heaven even a real physical place in the first place?" And although modern science has betrayed the atheist in his 'non-beliefs' time and time again, the scientific evidence for heaven is a particularly interesting betrayal of the 'scientific' atheist in his beliefs in that it undermines all the atheist's 'non-beliefs' in one fell swoop. First, it establishes the physical reality of heaven. And by default of establishing that fact, it also establishes, albeit indirectly, the reality of God and the reality of immortal souls. In scientifically establishing the fact that heaven is a physically real place, the Christian Theist can appeal to none-other than Einstein's Special Relativity itself. Special Relativity, along with General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, and Quantum Electrodynamics, (which is a combination of special relativity and quantum mechanics), belong to a unique class of scientific theories for which we can find no disagreement whatsoever between the mathematical predictions of those theories and what we able to measure for those predictions, (in so far as measurement accuracy will allow). In other words, Special Relativity, along with General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, and Quantum Electrodynamics, is, (again, in so far as measurement accuracy will allow us to say), are to be considered 'prefect' mathematical descriptions of the universe. What is interesting about those 'perfect' scientific theories is that they are not based on three dimensional Euclidean geometry, such as Newton's theory of gravity is based on three dimensional Euclidean geometry, but is that they are all based on higher dimensional mathematics.

The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences – Eugene Wigner – 1960 Excerpt: We now have, in physics, two theories of great power and interest: the theory of quantum phenomena and the theory of relativity.,,, The two theories operate with different mathematical concepts - the four dimensional Riemann space and the infinite dimensional Hilbert space, respectively. So far, the two theories could not be united, that is, no mathematical formulation exists to which both of these theories are approximations. All physicists believe that a union of the two theories is inherently possible and that we shall find it. Nevertheless, it is possible also to imagine that no union of the two theories can be found.,,, https://www.maths.ed.ac.uk/~v1ranick/papers/wigner.pdf Four-dimensional space – with 4-D animation: Excerpt: The idea of adding a fourth dimension began with Joseph-Louis Lagrange in the mid 1700s and culminated in a precise formalization of the concept in 1854 by Bernhard Riemann.,,, Higher dimensional spaces have since become one of the foundations for formally expressing modern mathematics and physics. Large parts of these topics could not exist in their current forms without the use of such spaces.,,, Einstein’s concept of spacetime uses such a 4D space, though it has a Minkowski structure that is a bit more complicated than Euclidean 4D space. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-dimensional_space

In fact, the higher dimensional nature of special relativity was a discovery that was made by one of Einstein math professors in 1908 prior to Einstein’s elucidation of the 4-D space-time of General Relativity in 1915. (In fact, in 1916 Einstein fully acknowledged his indebtedness to Minkowski)

Spacetime Excerpt: In 1908, Hermann Minkowski—once one of the math professors of a young Einstein in Zurich—presented a geometric interpretation of special relativity that fused time and the three spatial dimensions of space into a single four-dimensional continuum now known as Minkowski space. A key feature of this interpretation is the definition of a spacetime interval that combines distance and time. Although measurements of distance and time between events differ for measurements made in different reference frames, the spacetime interval is independent of the inertial frame of reference in which they are recorded. Minkowski’s geometric interpretation of relativity was to prove vital to Einstein’s development of his 1915 general theory of relativity, wherein he showed that spacetime becomes curved in the presence of mass or energy.,,, Einstein, for his part, was initially dismissive of Minkowski’s geometric interpretation of special relativity, regarding it as überflüssige Gelehrsamkeit (superfluous learnedness). However, in order to complete his search for general relativity that started in 1907, the geometric interpretation of relativity proved to be vital, and in 1916, Einstein fully acknowledged his indebtedness to Minkowski, whose interpretation greatly facilitated the transition to general relativity.[10]:151–152 Since there are other types of spacetime, such as the curved spacetime of general relativity, the spacetime of special relativity is today known as Minkowski spacetime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

There are two interesting, empirically confirmed, facets of Special Relativity that are interesting to look at, (i.e. Time Dilation and Space-Time curvature), in establishing the physical reality of heaven. In regards to Time Dilation, one of the most intriguing things to learn about special relativity is that, for any observer traveling the speed of light, time, as we understand it, will come to a complete stop for them,

Time dilation Special relativity indicates that, for an observer in an inertial frame of reference, a clock that is moving relative to them will be measured to tick slower than a clock that is at rest in their frame of reference. This case is sometimes called special relativistic time dilation. The faster the relative velocity, the greater the time dilation between one another, with the rate of time reaching zero as one approaches the speed of light (299,792,458 m/s). This causes massless particles that travel at the speed of light to be unaffected by the passage of time.,,, Gravitational time dilation is experienced by an observer that, at a certain altitude within a gravitational potential well, finds that their local clocks measure less elapsed time than identical clocks situated at higher altitude (and which are therefore at higher gravitational potential). Gravitational time dilation is at play e.g. for ISS astronauts. While the astronauts' relative velocity slows down their time, the reduced gravitational influence at their location speeds it up, although at a lesser degree. Also, a climber's time is theoretically passing slightly faster at the top of a mountain compared to people at sea level. It has also been calculated that due to time dilation, the core of the Earth is 2.5 years younger than the crust.[32] "A clock used to time a full rotation of the earth will measure the day to be approximately an extra 10 ns/day longer for every km of altitude above the reference geoid."[33] Travel to regions of space where extreme gravitational time dilation is taking place, such as near a black hole, could yield time-shifting results analogous to those of near-lightspeed space travel. Contrarily to velocity time dilation, in which both observers measure the other as aging slower (a reciprocal effect), gravitational time dilation is not reciprocal. This means that with gravitational time dilation both observers agree that the clock nearer the center of the gravitational field is slower in rate, and they agree on the ratio of the difference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Gravitational_time_dilation

The Theistic implications of this are fairly clear to see. As Dr. Richard Swenson noted, "The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities."

"The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass." - Dr. Richard Swenson - More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 11

To grasp the whole concept of time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the very same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into special relativity. Here is a short clip from a video that gives us a look into Einstein’s breakthrough insight that allowed him to formulate special relativity.

“In the spring of 1905, Einstein was riding on a bus and he looked back at the famous clock tower that dominates Bern Switzerland. And then he imagined, “What happens if that bus were racing near the speed of light.”, (narrator: “In his imagination, Einstein looks back at the clock tower and what he sees is astonishing. As he reaches the speed of light, the hands of the clock appear frozen in time”), “Einstein would later write, “A storm broke in my mind. All of the sudden everything, everything, kept gushing forward.”, (narrator: “Einstein knows that, back at the clock tower, time is passing normally, but on Einstein’s light speed bus, as he reaches the speed of light, the light from the clock can no longer catch up to him. The faster he races through space, the slower he moves through time. This insight sparks the birth of Einstein’s Special Theory of relativity, which says that space and time are deeply connected. In fact, they are one and the same. A flexible fabric called spacetime.”) – Michio Kaku Einstein: Einstein’s Miracle Year (‘Insight into Eternity’ – Thought Experiment – 6:29 minute mark) – video https://youtu.be/QQ35opgrhNA?t=389

That time, as we understand it, comes to a complete stop at the speed of light, and yet light moves from point A to point B in our universe, and thus light is obviously not ‘frozen within time, has some fairly profound implications. The only way it is possible for time not to pass for light, and yet for light to move from point A to point B in our universe, is, (as Einstein's math professor Hermann Minkowski pointed out), if the space-time of light is of a higher dimensional value of space-time than the temporal time we are currently living in. Otherwise light would simply be ‘frozen within time’ to our temporal, 3-Dimensional, frame of reference. One way for us to more easily understand this higher dimensional framework for time that light exists in is to visualize what would happen if a hypothetical observer approached the speed of light. In the first part of the following video clip, which was made by two Australian University Physics Professors, we find that the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape as a ‘hypothetical’ observer approaches the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light.

Optical Effects of Special Relativity – video (full relativistic effects shown at the 2:40 minute mark) https://youtu.be/JQnHTKZBTI4?t=160

To give us a better understanding as to what it would be like to exist in a higher dimension, this following video, Dr. Quantum in Flatland, also gives us a small insight as to what it would be like to exist in a higher dimension:

Dr. Quantum in Flatland – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5yxZ5I-zsE (Of note: This video was once featured on Anton Zeilinger's 'outreach' page)

bornagain77

June 14, 2021

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