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Atheism’s problem of warrant (–> being, Logic and First Principles, No. 23)

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Atheism seems to be on the table these days here at UD and a few points need clarification.

First up, what is Atheism?

The usual dictionaries are consistent:

atheism
n. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
[French athéisme, from athée, atheist, from Greek atheos, godless : a-, without; see a-1 + theos, god; see dh?s- in Indo-European roots.]

American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2016 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.

atheism
n (Philosophy) rejection of belief in God or gods
[C16: from French athéisme, from Greek atheos godless, from a-1 + theos god]
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014

a•the•ism
n. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
[1580–90]
Random House Kernerman Webster’s College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

atheism
the absolute denial of the existence of God or any other gods.
-Ologies & -Isms. Copyright 2008 The Gale Group, Inc. All rights reserved.

However, from at least the 1880’s, there has been a claim by some advocates of the same, that what is meant is someone without faith in God.

(This tends to serve the rhetorical purpose of claiming that nothing is asserted and it can be taken as default, demanding that theists provide “compelling” warrant for faith in God. Where, often, this then leads to selectively hyperskeptical dismissals, sometimes to the degree of claiming that “there is no evidence” that supports the existence of God. [Of course, the no evidence gambit should usually be taken as implying ” there is no evidence [that I am willing to acknowledge].” Through that loophole, as fair comment, a lot of clearly question-beggingly closed minded hyperskepticism can be driven.)

There are many varieties of atheists, including idealistic ones that reject the reality of matter. However at this juncture in our civilisation, the relevant form is evolutionary materialistic, often associated with the scientism that holds that big-S Science effectively monopolises credible knowledge. (Never mind that such a view is an epistemological [thus philosophical and self-refuting] view. Evolutionary materialism is also self-refuting by way of undermining the credibility of mind.)

A key take-home point is that atheism is not an isolated view or belief, it is part of a wider worldview, where every worldview needs to be responsible before the bar of comparative difficulties: factual adequacy, coherence, balanced explanatory power. Likewise, given the tendency of modern atheism to dress up in a lab coat, we must also reckon with fellow travellers who do not explicitly avow atheism but clearly enable it.

So, already, we can see that atheism is best understood as disbelief — NB, Dicts: “refusal or reluctance to believe”/ “the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true” — in the existence of God, claimed or implied to be a well warranted view; not merely having doubts about God’s existence or thinking one does not know enough to hold a strong opinion. It inevitably exists as a part of a broader philosophical scheme, a worldview, and will imply therefore a cultural agenda.

(I add: Note by contrast, AmHD on agnosticism: “The belief that the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities cannot be known with certainty. “ Where, of course, certainty comes in various degrees, starting with moral certainty, and where knowledge, as commonly used often speaks to credibly warranted beliefs taken as true but not typically held as utterly certain beyond any possibility of error or incompleteness. We not only know that 2 + 3 = 5, but we claim knowledge of less than utterly certain facts and theories. For instance, in the mid 2000’s, the previous understanding and “fact” that Pluto was the 9th Planet of our solar system was revised through redefining Pluto as a dwarf planet.)

It will be further helpful (given objections that suggest inapt, distorted caricature) to excerpt from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, as appears at comment 11:

“Atheism” is typically defined in terms of “theism”. Theism, in turn, is best understood as a proposition—something that is either true or false. It is often defined as “the belief that God exists”, but here “belief” means “something believed”. It refers to the propositional content of belief, not to the attitude or psychological state of believing. This is why it makes sense to say that theism is true or false and to argue for or against theism. If, however, “atheism” is defined in terms of theism and theism is the proposition that God exists and not the psychological condition of believing that there is a God, then it follows that atheism is not the absence of the psychological condition of believing that God exists (more on this below). The “a-” in “atheism” must be understood as negation instead of absence, as “not” instead of “without”. Therefore, in philosophy at least, atheism should be construed as the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, the proposition that there are no gods).

This definition has the added virtue of making atheism a direct answer to one of the most important metaphysical questions in philosophy of religion, namely, “Is there a God?” There are only two possible direct answers to this question: “yes”, which is theism, and “no”, which is atheism. Answers like “I don’t know”, “no one knows”, “I don’t care”, “an affirmative answer has never been established”, or “the question is meaningless” are not direct answers to this question.

While identifying atheism with the metaphysical claim that there is no God (or that there are no gods) is particularly useful for doing philosophy, it is important to recognize that the term “atheism” is polysemous—i.e., it has more than one related meaning—even within philosophy. For example, many writers at least implicitly identify atheism with a positive metaphysical theory like naturalism or even materialism. Given this sense of the word, the meaning of “atheism” is not straightforwardly derived from the meaning of “theism”. . . . .

[A] few philosophers and quite a few non-philosophers claim that “atheism” shouldn’t be defined as a proposition at all, even if theism is a proposition. Instead, “atheism” should be defined as a psychological state: the state of not believing in the existence of God (or gods). This view was famously proposed by the philosopher Antony Flew and arguably played a role in his (1972) defense of an alleged presumption of “atheism”. The editors of the Oxford Handbook of Atheism (Bullivant & Ruse 2013) also favor this definition and one of them, Stephen Bullivant (2013), defends it on grounds of scholarly utility. His argument is that this definition can best serve as an umbrella term for a wide variety of positions that have been identified with atheism. Scholars can then use adjectives like “strong” and “weak” to develop a taxonomy that differentiates various specific atheisms. Unfortunately, this argument overlooks the fact that, if atheism is defined as a psychological state, then no proposition can count as a form of atheism because a proposition is not a psychological state. This undermines his argument in defense of Flew’s definition; for it implies that what he calls “strong atheism”—the proposition (or belief in the sense of “something believed”) that there is no God—is not really a variety of atheism at all. In short, his proposed “umbrella” term leaves strong atheism out in the rain. [–> which makes little sense]

Although Flew’s definition of “atheism” [thus] fails as an umbrella term, it is certainly a legitimate definition in the sense that it reports how a significant number of people use the term. Again, there is more than one “correct” definition of “atheism”. The issue for philosophy is which definition is the most useful for scholarly or, more narrowly, philosophical purposes.

We can go further.

For, we all have intellectual duties of care in general and as regards worldviews and linked cultural agendas. There are particular, inescapable associated duties to truth, right reason, prudence (including warrant), sound conscience, fairness, justice, etc. To see why such are inescapable, consider the consequences of a widespread rejection of such duties: ruinous chaos that would undermine rationality itself. Reason is morally governed.

Also, given that post Godel, not even sufficiently complex mathematical systems are subject to proof beyond doubt, that one cannot provide absolute demonstration is not at all the same as that one does not have adequate warrant to hold responsible certainty about key points of knowledge. In this context, the issue is reasonable, responsible faith in a credible worldview. Where, the claim one has “absence of belief in” God is often patently evasive. Why such a strange lack?

Could it be that one knows enough to realise that trying to disprove the reality of God is an almost impossible task, once there is no demonstrable incoherence in the theistic concept of God? (Where, we note, that the old attempt to use the problem of evil to lead to such a contradiction has failed; a failure that is particularly evident, post-Plantinga.)

Now, such is significant, especially given point 7 from the recently cited six-country study on atheists:

7. Also perhaps challenging common suppositions: with
only a few exceptions, atheists and agnostics endorse
the realities of objective moral values, human dignity and
attendant rights, and the ‘deep value’ of nature, at similar
rates to the general populations in their countries. (3.1)

A key to this, is the already mentioned point that our mental lives are inescapably under moral government, through undeniably known duties to “truth, right reason, prudence (including warrant), sound conscience, fairness, justice, etc.” The attempt to deny such rapidly undercuts rational discussion and the credibility of thought and communication, much as is implicit in what would happen were lying to be the norm. So, one who rejects the objectivity of such duties discredits himself.

However, it is also possible to hold an inconsistency; accepting objective morality but placing it in a framework that undermines it.

A start-point is to see that our rationality is morally governed through said duties. This means, our life of reason operates on both sides of the IS-OUGHT gap, requiring that it be bridged. That can only be done in the root of reality, on pain of ungrounded ought. And no, indoctrination, socialisation and even conscience do not ground ought. We need that the root of reality is inherently and essentially good and wise, a serious bill to fill.

You may dispute this (so, as a phil exercise, provide an alternative _____ and justify it _____ ), but it is easy to show that after many centuries of debates there is just one serious candidate: the inherently good, utterly wise creator God, a necessary and maximally great being. One, worthy of loyalty and of the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good that accords with our evident nature. This is the heart of ethical theism.

There is another angle. How much of reality do we know, how much of what is knowable do we actually hold, and how much of that is certain beyond future correction? The ratio is obviously trending infinitesimal; even dismissing Boltzmann brain scenarios, Matrix worlds and Plato’s cave worlds etc.

So, what if what is required to know God is, is beyond what one happens to know, or what one is willing to acknowledge?

In short, the positive affirmation that there is no God is arguably an act of intellectual irresponsibility, given our inability to show that being God is incoherent and our effectively infinitesimal grasp of what is knowable.

Let me add a table, as a reminder on logic of being:

Indeed, as it is easy to see that reality has a necessary being root (something of independent existence that therefore has neither beginning nor end), given that traversal of the transfinite in finite temporal-causal steps is a supertask and given that were there ever utter non-being, as such has no causal powers that would forever obtain, if a world now is, something thus always was. Thus, too, the question is: what that necessary being is, and that is further shaped by our being under moral government starting with our rationality.

Where also, a serious candidate to be a necessary being either is, or is impossible of being as a square circle is impossible of being. Where, a necessary being is a world-framework entity: a component of what is necessary for there to be any world. God as historically understood through theism is clearly such a serious candidate (if you doubt, kindly justify: ____ ), and so the one who poses as knowing that God is not implies having warrant to hold God impossible of being. Where, given the centrality of root of reality, ducking the question is clearly irresponsible.

In short, asserting or implying atheism requires a serious — and unmet — burden of warrant. END

Comments
I'm with Dave on this levitation business. There are too many examples of people being fooled to take eye witness accounts seriously. And I'm with BB about atheism. I can't take seriously people who tell me what the "real reasons" for my beliefs are.hazel
July 1, 2019
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DS, eyewitness testimony is evidence, especially from responsible and credible people. these days, with deep fake stuff beginning and the like, I think we are going to have to revert to prioritising the report of a responsible trustworthy person over the imagery and videos we have become used to. And yes, that is a warning on agit prop fakery as things get worse and worse. KFkairosfocus
July 1, 2019
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BB, kindly read and respond to the clipping in no 11 above. Your personalising without actually addressing substance is duly noted. KFkairosfocus
July 1, 2019
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KF, I wouldn't dismiss them out of hand, either, but again all we have are testimonials.
WARNING: I caution against involvement with these things unless one is thoroughly prepared and knows what one is doing. Demonically motivated attempted murder is real, and much more that I shudder to think of.
Well, I'm willing to take one for the team. Is there some way I can attract or conjure up a demon? I can set up cameras and record the whole thing. The main purpose would be to witness it myself, though.daveS
July 1, 2019
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KF, you continue to claim to understand more about the atheist world view than the atheists who comment here. DaveS, Mimis, Hazel and Sev are all atheists (I think), yet I would be willing to bet that we each have a different view as to what that means. To think that you, a devout Christian, would know more about the atheist world view than we do is just ludicrous, if not arrogant. That is why I posted comment 3. Now, if you are willing to admit that it is entirely possible for us atheists to know more about the Christian world view than you do, I might have to rethink my comment.Brother Brian
July 1, 2019
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DS, in the case I and dozens of others witnessed, no tape was a matter of privacy -- exorcism porn is porn, to use a word that seems to be migrating in meaning. KF PS: A media case: https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/haunting-indiana-home-leads-exorcism-levitation-report-article-1.1593169 and a report by a pshrink: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/07/01/as-a-psychiatrist-i-diagnose-mental-illness-and-sometimes-demonic-possession/?utm_term=.7e007a16d5b6 Based on what I have seen and dealt with I would not dismiss these out of hand. I add this interview: http://www.thechristianreview.com/battling-the-demonic-an-interview-with-americas-exorcists/ WARNING: I caution against involvement with these things unless one is thoroughly prepared and knows what one is doing. Demonically motivated attempted murder is real, and much more that I shudder to think of.kairosfocus
July 1, 2019
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KF,
it was not taped
For some reason that's always the case in these alleged paranormal incidents. Maybe I should set up a reward (like Randi did). Anyone who presents compelling video evidence of a levitation gets a $10 gift certificate to Chipotle.daveS
July 1, 2019
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BB, there you go again. You would be better advised to read this, from SEP at 11 above, in case you actually imagine as you said in 3 above: https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/atheisms-problem-of-warrant/#comment-679867 KFkairosfocus
July 1, 2019
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DS, I am not talking about minor errors but grand delusion. As you know I am a witness to a real levitation case but it was not taped, no one there was interested in such and it would probably be a privacy violation. I am talking about people I know. KFkairosfocus
July 1, 2019
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The bigger question is why Mama allowed baby to get up on the stove.Brother Brian
July 1, 2019
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Mama tells Baby not to touch the stove. Baby touches the stove. Baby blames Mama for punishing him when he meant no harm. He was merely curious. Baby denies the existence of Mama, since if she existed he would have to love her and obey her, and he refuses to do that while she is punishing him with physical pain. The God of rightness has an enemy, the god of confusion, who inspires men to think that all things are subject their reason. The deeper you go into this concept the goofier it gets.SmartAZ
July 1, 2019
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KF
You would be well advised to attend to the identified responsibilities of worldview warrant. Your strawman caricature of standard dictionary understandings, the better to personalise and polarise, is duly noted.
There’s that strawman accusation again. I’m beginning to think that you don’t know what that means. Let me provide you with a text book example so that you will have a better understanding. Person A established a false description about what what person B’s worldview is and entails, and then proceeds to pick apart the inconsistencies in this incorrectly described worldview.Brother Brian
July 1, 2019
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KF,
If the millions are all delusional, then we are looking at serious doubts on the credibility of the human mind.
Yes, and it's a well-known fact that people commit mental errors all the time. Consider the QAnon phenomenon, for example. Here's another *possible* illustration that occurred just yesterday at church. A friend was describing to me how while he was fixing his car, he dropped a part over the engine. When this happens, often the part will land in a particularly inaccessible place, very difficult to retrieve. In this case my friend was fortunate in that the part landed within easy reach, and he credited God with causing this to happen. While his explanation could be true, I cannot dismiss the possibility that this is a case of mistaken attribution. Especially in view of the horrible things that happen around the world (for example, this.) PS: I am a sucker for the paranormal, so if you can locate any decent-quality video of a levitation or some other incident which is clearly physically impossible (absent divine presence) please do post it.daveS
July 1, 2019
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F/N: More from WLC:
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/definition-of-atheism There’s a difference between saying, “I do not believe (p)” and “I believe (not-p).” Logically where you place the negation makes a world of difference. But where your atheist friends err is in claiming that atheism involves only not believing that there is a God rather than believing that there is no God. There’s a history behind this. Certain atheists in the mid-twentieth century were promoting the so-called “presumption of atheism.” At face value, this would appear to be the claim that in the absence of evidence for the existence of God, we should presume that God does not exist. Atheism is a sort of default position, and the theist bears a special burden of proof with regard to his belief that God exists. So understood, such an alleged presumption is clearly mistaken. For the assertion that “There is no God” is just as much a claim to knowledge as is the assertion that “There is a God.” Therefore, the former assertion requires justification just as the latter does. It is the agnostic who makes no knowledge claim at all with respect to God’s existence. He confesses that he doesn’t know whether there is a God or whether there is no God. But when you look more closely at how protagonists of the presumption of atheism used the term “atheist,” you discover that they were defining the word in a non-standard way, synonymous with “non-theist." So understood the term would encompass agnostics and traditional atheists, along with those who think the question meaningless (verificationists). As Antony Flew confesses, the word ‘atheist’ has in the present context to be construed in an unusual way. [--> smoking gun] Nowadays it is normally taken to mean someone who explicitly denies the existence . . . of God . . . But here it has to be understood not positively but negatively, with the originally Greek prefix ‘a-’ being read in this same way in ‘atheist’ as it customarily is in . . . words as ‘amoral’ . . . . In this interpretation an atheist becomes not someone who positively asserts the non-existence of God, but someone who is simply not a theist. (A Companion to Philosophy of Religion, ed. Philip Quinn and Charles Taliaferro [Oxford: Blackwell, 1997], s.v. “The Presumption of Atheism,” by Antony Flew) Such a re-definition of the word “atheist” trivializes the claim of the presumption of atheism, for on this definition, atheism ceases to be a view. It is merely a psychological state which is shared by people who hold various views or no view at all. On this re-definition, even babies, who hold no opinion at all on the matter, count as atheists! In fact, our cat Muff counts as an atheist on this definition, since she has (to my knowledge) no belief in God. One would still require justification in order to know either that God exists or that He does not exist, which is the question we’re really interested in.
The issue of epistemic burden-shifting is patent. KFkairosfocus
July 1, 2019
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F/N: I find this transcript at Reasonable Faith is significant:
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/media/reasonable-faith-podcast/the-proper-definition-of-atheism Dr. Craig: The standard definition of atheism is that God does not exist. It's the view that there is no God. [--> confirmed, cf above] Kevin Harris: That's not what many of the new atheists hold to. They hold to a kind of a watered-down . . . it's just a lack of belief – 'I lack belief' – which is a personal statement about themselves. Dr. Craig: Right, it's just an autobiographical confession; it's not a viewpoint that's true of false. [--> See SEP's evisceration at 11 above: "If, however, “atheism” is defined in terms of theism and theism is the proposition that God exists and not the psychological condition of believing that there is a God, then it follows that atheism is not the absence of the psychological condition of believing that God exists (more on this below). The “a-” in “atheism” must be understood as negation instead of absence, as “not” instead of “without”. Therefore, in philosophy at least, atheism should be construed as the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, the proposition that there are no gods)."] Kevin Harris: This atheist blogger wants to examine the claim of Penn that not knowing the origin of the universe justifies atheism. And Penn Jillette says [1], What makes me libertarian is what makes me an atheist -- I don't know. If I don't know, I don't believe. I don't know exactly how we got here, and I don't think anyone else does, either. We have some of the pieces of the puzzle and we'll get more, but I'm not going to use faith to fill in the gaps. [--> notice, the disparaging reference and failure to appreciate the worldviews alternatives challenge, to use comparative difficulties analysis to hold a reasonable, responsible set of first plausibles defining a faith-point or worldview core] I'm not going to believe things that TV hosts state without proof. I'll wait for real evidence and then I'll believe. Dr. Craig: Uh huh. Well, that statement doesn’t comport with the standard definition of atheism. That simply is to say that you don't know and therefore you don't have a belief in God. That's the revised definition. So this Penn fellow isn't a standard atheist, he would be an agnostic. It would be somebody who says, 'I don't know.' Now, the odd thing about his statement is that he seems to assume the only way to know that God exists is by knowing the origin of the universe, and that's very strange. I mean, think of times earlier in human history when people had no idea what the origin of the universe might have been. Does that mean that therefore they had no way of knowing that God exists? Why should we think that the only way to know God exists is by having a theory of the origin of the universe? I think that's extraordinarily peculiar. Kevin Harris: And 'I'm not going to use faith to fill in the gaps'—that's the old God of the gaps. Dr. Craig: Right, that's the old God of the gaps, but that's assuming, again, that the only way to know that God exists is through having a theory of the origin of the universe, and I can't think of anybody, frankly, who believes that. Even non-theists, I don't think, believe that in order to know that God exists you have to have a theory of how the universe originated. That's really an extraordinary claim. Kevin Harris: This atheist blogger says, “First, I reject the claim that atheism is a lack of belief.” Dr. Craig: So, he disagrees with Penn. Kevin Harris: Yes. This may be its definition among a small club of self-important atheists who have adopted a particular and peculiar private language, but it is not the American-English definition of the word. In American English an atheist is a person who believes that the proposition that at least one God exists is almost certainly, or certainly, false. Dr. Craig: I wouldn't say that the atheist is committed to the certainty of that proposition. He's just committed to the falsehood of the proposition that God exists, but he may hold that very tenuously and provisionally. [2] There's no reason to saddle the atheist with the claim that he has to be certain about it or nearly certain. Kevin Harris: He says, I'm an atheist in the American English sense of the word. I hold that the proposition that at least one God exists is almost certainly false. I also hold much of religion as it is practiced is immoral. However that is not a part of atheism, it is a corollary of that. He brings up the issue of “Is atheism a worldview or is it a subsidiary of naturalism or metaphysical naturalism as a worldview?” Dr. Craig: Oh, I don't think it's a subsidiary. Atheism, as he says, is simply the belief that there is no God. Now, the atheist might be a humanist who thinks that human beings have intrinsic moral value, or he might be a nihilist who thinks that there are no objective moral values at all. And therefore the atheist might not be committed to the claim that religions are immoral, as this atheist is. This atheist wants to affirm the objectivity of moral values despite his atheism. And there are a good many atheists who won't make that leap of faith, who will say that in the absence of God there are no objective moral values, and therefore the claims of religion are not immoral. Kevin Harris: He says, “On the question of how the universe came into existence, I do not know how it came into existence, and the proposition that some God is responsible is almost certainly false.” Dr. Craig: Uh huh. I wonder how he knows that.
This onward bit is almost as interesting -- revealing:
Kevin Harris: Yeah, that would need some justification. Dr. Craig: Right, does he give any justification or argument for why that proposition is false? Kevin Harris: Just one. He says, Let's assume I had a deck of cards. It is a special deck of cards with one billion different suits and one billion and three cards of each suit. You draw a card, don't tell me what it is. Somebody asks me to name what card you drew. I answer—'I do not know.' They ask, 'What do you think of the proposition that he drew the king of hearts?' My answer: ‘I think that the proposition that he drew the king of hearts is almost certainly false.’ There is no contradiction here. Both claims are true. I do not know what card he drew, and the proposition that he drew the king of hearts is almost certainly false. Dr. Craig: Right, it's highly improbable that that (indiscernible) but I don't see the connection with theism. What's he say about theism? Kevin Harris: On the question of how the universe came into existence I do not know how it came into existence, and the proposition that some God is responsible is almost certainly false. And even if he did draw the king of hearts and I said he drew the king of hearts, it would be utter absurdity for me to claim that I knew he drew the king of hearts. This is not knowledge; this is merely a lucky guess. No matter how certain I might be that my totally unfounded random belief is true. Do you see any correlation between the illustration? Dr. Craig: No, it seems to me that this experiment that he's suggesting is just not set up properly. Suppose we have a series of cards with pictures of U.S. presidents on them, and someone picks blindly a card from the deck and asks me to guess whose picture is on it. And suppose I say President Obama. Now, it's almost certainly false that I have picked the card with President Obama's picture on it. Given the range of alternatives it's highly improbable that the card that was randomly picked corresponds to my guess that it's President Obama. But does that mean that it's almost certainly false that Obama is the president? Well, obviously not. It just doesn't follow at all from the fact that the choice that I have picked is probably not Obama that therefore it's highly improbable that Obama is the president. The whole experiment is misconceived. This is really a strange argument, Kevin. What he seems to be saying is that if you have a number of possible explanations and you're just blindly asked to pick from one of them without any evidence then if you have this wide, wide range of alternatives any one you pick blindly is probably false; it's highly improbable that you'd have randomly picked the true explanation. But the problem with this argument is that that applies to every choice in the deck. Every one of them, any one that you might pick is almost certainly false in the sense that it's highly, highly improbable. Now, that would mean that if atheism is one of the alternatives then atheism is almost certainly false, since a random pick of that is just as highly improbable as any of the other ones. It's a trivial sort of argument because it's true of every alternative you pick, including his own chosen alternative, atheism. [3] It would be almost certainly false. Moreover, I'm not sure that he's properly set up the thought experiment because his claim is that no God is responsible for the origin of the universe. So if you have all these different gods to choose from, all these different cards to pick from the deck, what he's saying is that there is no god that has created the universe. And that's not one alternative. He's trying to rule out a vast range of cards, and in order to do that he might have to rule out virtually all of the cards except for the atheistic card. So that would make it highly probable that some god has created the universe and highly improbable that there is no god that created the universe. So it seems to me this argument really is bizarre and perhaps self-defeating, and in any case irrelevant, because what he's assuming is that we are in a state in which we have absolutely no evidence [--> sounds familiar?] and we're asked to simply blindly pick from various alternatives, and I don't think we're in such a state . . .
KFkairosfocus
July 1, 2019
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F/N: In 16 above, I pointed out:
the above concerns pivot on something prior to such: what is God, considered as a candidate being. Clearly, widely taken as a serious candidate necessary being. Such are either impossible of being (like square circles) or else actual. Where, it is seriously arguable that we need and have a necessary being root of reality, the issue being of what character in a world containing morally governed creatures — us. It is doubtful that God is impossible of being and it is doubtful that he is contingent. Arguably, he is possible of being and necessary, so actual. Those who deny or seriously doubt this have a fairly serious implicit burden of warrant.
Notice the highlighted: it is seriously arguable that we need and have a necessary being root of reality, the issue being of what character in a world containing morally governed creatures — us. The context for this is that of a cosmos that credibly had a beginning and exhibits causal-temporal succession of finite stages (think, years for convenience or stages along the usual cosmological timeline). Extending such into the past, as we recently explored, cannot go to a causal loop where a successor state t effectively reaches back to t-n and causes itself. Nor is it plausible that we have had a successive finite stage traversal of an actual transfinitely large past (and yes, an implicit transfinite is just as transfinite as an explicit one, as was recently revisited, going over grounds first looked at in 2016). This leads to a finitely remote causal root of reality. Logic of being has somewhat to say. First, that were there ever utter non-being (the genuine nothing . . . as opposed to quantum foams etc), as such has no causal powers, that would forever obtain. As a world is, manifestly, then also something always was. That is, there is arguably a finitely removed world root that always was, i.e. is of causally independent character, is a necessary being. Our challenge is to characterise it, circular cause and world out of nonbeing not being credible, with transfinite succession of finite stages being comparably difficult (start with, perpetual postponement of and assuming already completed transfinite traverse). Actually, that does point to something of eternal enduring character being beyond any finitely remote point, i.e. it is a claim as to what the world root is. One that BTW would have long since attained heat death, which just is not the case, indeed the prevalence of white dwarfs suggests that their cooling down time has not been traversed. A key to onward characterisation is that we are inescapably morally governed, starting with duties to truth, to right reason, to prudence (including warrant), to sound conscience, to fairness and justice, etc. This means we operate on both sides of the IS-OUGHT gap, especially in exercising rational freedom (which computational substrates cannot have -- they calculate based on inputs and organisation, they do not freely infer). That requires bridging the gap in the root of reality, in turn requiring inherent goodness there. As has been pointed out above, that points (after centuries of debates) to the sole serious candidate to fill such a bill: the inherently good, utterly wise creator God, a necessary and maximally great being. One, worthy of loyalty and of the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good that accords with our evident nature. That is the heart of ethical theism. As also noted, "You may dispute this (so, as a phil exercise, provide an alternative _____ and justify it _____ )." Those making the attempt will soon see why I have spoken of a sole serious candidate. Likewise, the OP goes on:
There is another angle. How much of reality do we know, how much of what is knowable do we actually hold, and how much of that is certain beyond future correction? The ratio is obviously trending infinitesimal; even dismissing Boltzmann brain scenarios, Matrix worlds and Plato’s cave worlds etc. So, what if what is required to know God is, is beyond what one happens to know, or what one is willing to acknowledge?
That is a serious challenge and it points to the unmet challenge of worldview level warrant faced by atheism. KFkairosfocus
July 1, 2019
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Sev (attn H & DS), the report of transformative experience is not in itself a proof of one's full framework of understanding, there is a comparative difficulties process to be carried out. I have given a 101 on such here on in context. Be that as it may, I note that if just one of the millions who report encounter with the living God through the once crucified, risen [with 500 eyewitnesses] Christ -- all, in accordance with & fulfillment of the centuries old prophecies of the scriptures [by count 300, core being Isa 53] -- has actually done so, then we have truth to address. Truth being, the accurate description of reality. If the millions are all delusional, then we are looking at serious doubts on the credibility of the human mind. Notice, your injection of "hallucinations" [which are of disintegrative, not genuinely transformational character] and your "based on your faith," which short circuits the comparative difficulties worldviews analysis which is key in the OP and above, which answers the question of circularity by way of worldviews level inference to the best explanation across competing worldview cores i/l/o factual adequacy, coherence and balanced explanatory power. KFkairosfocus
June 30, 2019
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Kairosfocus @ 19
DS, there are literally millions who report life transforming encounters with God, including great, positive figures in world history. That you or I may not for the moment be among that circle does not constitute an adequate reason to dismiss their reports
There are many who report transformative experiences through faiths or beliefs other than Christianity or through experiences which could be hallucinations such as those induced by psychedelic drugs, I am prepared to accept these reports as genuine but why should I accept your explanation - based in your own faith - as the right one when there may be others equally convinced of the truth of their own explanation? Do you find it conceivable that you could be wrong?Seversky
June 30, 2019
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KF, Yes, and I have heard such reports myself. Some from mainstream Christians, but also some from JWs, Mormons, Scientologists, and Hare Krishnas.daveS
June 30, 2019
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A couple of verses from Paul Simon's "Ace in the Hole", one apropos and one I just like a lot.
Some people say Jesus, that’s the ace in the hole But I never met the man so I don’t really know Maybe some Christmas, if I’m sick and alone He will look up my number Call me on the phone, and say “Hey, boy, where you been so long? Don’t you know me? I’m your ace in the hole” Once I was crazy and my ace in the hole Was that I knew that I was crazy So I never lost my self-control I just walk in the middle of the road and I sleep in the middle of the bed I stop in the middle of a sentence And the voice in the middle of my head said Hey, Junior, where you been so long Don’t you know me I’m your ace in the hole (oh yeah)
hazel
June 30, 2019
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DS, there are literally millions who report life transforming encounters with God, including great, positive figures in world history. That you or I may not for the moment be among that circle does not constitute an adequate reason to dismiss their reports. And BTW, I am one, I would not be here otherwise. KFkairosfocus
June 30, 2019
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KF, I'm not dismissing modal arguments, I just don't want to go over that again. Essentially, I have been here a few decades without encountering this omnipresent being which my Christian friends say exists and with which they have a deep relationship. It's puzzling, but I have concluded this being (probably) does not exist. How many null results are required before this conclusion is warranted?daveS
June 30, 2019
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F/N: An illustrative typical exchange drawing out key issues from the OP and discussion above is here: https://apologetics315.com/2013/10/richard-dawkins-and-the-absence-of-belief/ Particularly note how evident ignorance of logic of being (and linked roots of reality) considerations leads to needless errors and dismissiveness on the part of atheism advocates. KFkairosfocus
June 30, 2019
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DS, pardon but I think i/l/o the above it necessary to further explore the issue. Where, to consider unlikely is to hold the belief that (subject to your inevitably bounded rationality) you either have access to significant but not decisive warrant against or else that you have lack of access to adequate warrant in favour plus further reason to doubt that such exists beyond your purview. Either is a strong claim and they would fit the rubric above. In addition, you suggest dismissal of modal ontological arguments. However, the above concerns pivot on something prior to such: what is God, considered as a candidate being. Clearly, widely taken as a serious candidate necessary being. Such are either impossible of being (like square circles) or else actual. Where, it is seriously arguable that we need and have a necessary being root of reality, the issue being of what character in a world containing morally governed creatures -- us. It is doubtful that God is impossible of being and it is doubtful that he is contingent. Arguably, he is possible of being and necessary, so actual. Those who deny or seriously doubt this have a fairly serious implicit burden of warrant. KFkairosfocus
June 30, 2019
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KF, I use the term "doubt" in the sense of "to consider unlikely", not in the sense of "lacking confident warrant". I guess I don't have much more to add. I believe we've discussed the modal ontological argument before, and at this point I'm not keen to revisit it. This is an interesting topic, however, so I'm sure others will have more to say.daveS
June 30, 2019
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DS, doubt is a psychological state, not a proposition. It is an epistemological claim to personal lack of confident warrant, or possibly to factors that impair confidence in accessible warrant. Some such factors -- pardon, this is an analysis not an attempt to psychoanalyse -- can attach to simple lack of awareness or to states induced through countervailing issues or even to personal circumstances. I would suggest that the logic of being issues are pivotal to resolving such. In my view, recognising that the ethical theistic view pivots on God being a necessary and maximally great being is a key to clarifying what is at stake. Perhaps God is impossible of being, or maybe he is possible but contingent . . . with implication that ethical theism is radically wrong in its conception of God as we just saw. But I doubt the notion that the God of ethical theism is contingent will fly, one would have to show strong reason to conclude God must be subject to some external causal factor. Arguing that God is impossible of being has gone out of fashion since Plantinga. So, it looks like there is serious reason to hold God a serious candidate necessary being and to be possible, so arguably actual. KFkairosfocus
June 30, 2019
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KF@12: No. I'm just saying I doubt that God (or gods) exist.daveS
June 30, 2019
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DS, are you trying to make the case that God is not a serious candidate necessary being -- here, that he would be contingent (thus depending on external enabling causal factors*)? KF * A contingent being, C will exist in a possible world W, but not a near neighbour one W' = {W -f}, f now being manifest as an external enabling causal factor for C such that once ~f then ~C. Such a concept works for stars, trees, fires and people but would be utterly alien to any serious ethical theistic view of God.kairosfocus
June 30, 2019
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F/N: I further clip from SEP on atheism:
1. Definitions of “Atheism” “Atheism” is typically defined in terms of “theism”. Theism, in turn, is best understood as a proposition—something that is either true or false. It is often defined as “the belief that God exists”, but here “belief” means “something believed”. It refers to the propositional content of belief, not to the attitude or psychological state of believing. This is why it makes sense to say that theism is true or false and to argue for or against theism. If, however, “atheism” is defined in terms of theism and theism is the proposition that God exists and not the psychological condition of believing that there is a God, then it follows that atheism is not the absence of the psychological condition of believing that God exists (more on this below). The “a-” in “atheism” must be understood as negation instead of absence, as “not” instead of “without”. Therefore, in philosophy at least, atheism should be construed as the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, the proposition that there are no gods). This definition has the added virtue of making atheism a direct answer to one of the most important metaphysical questions in philosophy of religion, namely, “Is there a God?” There are only two possible direct answers to this question: “yes”, which is theism, and “no”, which is atheism. Answers like “I don’t know”, “no one knows”, “I don’t care”, “an affirmative answer has never been established”, or “the question is meaningless” are not direct answers to this question. While identifying atheism with the metaphysical claim that there is no God (or that there are no gods) is particularly useful for doing philosophy, it is important to recognize that the term “atheism” is polysemous—i.e., it has more than one related meaning—even within philosophy. For example, many writers at least implicitly identify atheism with a positive metaphysical theory like naturalism or even materialism. Given this sense of the word, the meaning of “atheism” is not straightforwardly derived from the meaning of “theism”. While this might seem etymologically bizarre, perhaps a case can be made for the claim that something like (metaphysical) naturalism was originally labeled “atheism” only because of the cultural dominance of non-naturalist forms of theism, not because the view being labeled was nothing more than the denial of theism. On this view, there would have been atheists even if no theists ever existed—they just wouldn’t have been called “atheists”. (Baggini [2003] suggests this line of thought, though his “official” definition is the standard metaphysical one.) Although this definition of “atheism” is a legitimate one, it is often accompanied by fallacious inferences from the (alleged) falsity or probable falsity of atheism (= naturalism) to the truth or probable truth of theism. Departing even more radically from the norm in philosophy, a few philosophers and quite a few non-philosophers claim that “atheism” shouldn’t be defined as a proposition at all, even if theism is a proposition. Instead, “atheism” should be defined as a psychological state: the state of not believing in the existence of God (or gods). This view was famously proposed by the philosopher Antony Flew and arguably played a role in his (1972) defense of an alleged presumption of “atheism”. The editors of the Oxford Handbook of Atheism (Bullivant & Ruse 2013) also favor this definition and one of them, Stephen Bullivant (2013), defends it on grounds of scholarly utility. His argument is that this definition can best serve as an umbrella term for a wide variety of positions that have been identified with atheism. Scholars can then use adjectives like “strong” and “weak” to develop a taxonomy that differentiates various specific atheisms. Unfortunately, this argument overlooks the fact that, if atheism is defined as a psychological state, then no proposition can count as a form of atheism because a proposition is not a psychological state. This undermines his argument in defense of Flew’s definition; for it implies that what he calls “strong atheism”—the proposition (or belief in the sense of “something believed”) that there is no God—is not really a variety of atheism at all. In short, his proposed “umbrella” term leaves strong atheism out in the rain. Although Flew’s definition of “atheism” fails as an umbrella term, it is certainly a legitimate definition in the sense that it reports how a significant number of people use the term. Again, there is more than one “correct” definition of “atheism”. The issue for philosophy is which definition is the most useful for scholarly or, more narrowly, philosophical purposes. In other contexts, of course, the issue of how to define “atheism” or “atheist” may look very different. For example, in some contexts the crucial issue may be which definition of “atheist” (as opposed to “atheism”) is the most useful politically, especially in light of the bigotry that those who identify as atheists face. The fact that there is strength in numbers may recommend a very inclusive definition of “atheist” that brings anyone who is not a theist into the fold. Having said that, one would think that it would further no good cause, political or otherwise, to attack fellow non-theists who do not identify as atheists simply because they choose to use the term “atheist” in some other, equally legitimate sense. If atheism is usually and best understood in philosophy as the metaphysical claim that God does not exist, then what, one might wonder, should philosophers do with the popular term, “New Atheism”? Philosophers write articles on and have devoted journal issues (French & Wettstein 2013) to the New Atheism, but there is nothing close to a consensus on how that term should be defined. Fortunately, there is no real need for one, because the term “New Atheism” does not pick out some distinctive philosophical position or phenomenon. Instead, it is a popular label for a movement prominently represented by four authors—Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens—whose work is uniformly critical of religion, but beyond that appears to be unified only by timing and popularity.
This underscores several points in the OP (pace BB) and points to the onward significance of the logic of being issue being underscored. Namely, denial of the reality of or -- on the part of a reasonably intelligent and informed person -- holding oneself to be without belief in a serious candidate necessary being's existence is in a very different epistemological category from disbelieving that in this world some contingent entity X exists. For instance I believe that no unicorns exist today but due to demand for exotic pets and the reality of genetic engineering one will within 100 years. When one holds oneself to be warranted as without belief in a serious candidate necessary being, say, S, then it seems to me that one has a worldview level burden to show impossibility of S or else that S is at most contingent. I take it that those professing to be without belief in the number 2 will not be seen as sitting on no affirmation and needing to provide no warrant for such an absence of belief, while demanding arbitrarily high warrant for those so benighted as to imagine that 2 is real. I trust the magnitude of the issue is clearer. KFkairosfocus
June 30, 2019
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KF, Oops, forgot the link. Here's the section with Beale's IQ graph. (Not that it is of interest to either of us). I don't think I have failed to put forth enough effort studying these issues. Again, if you don't think my position is atheism, you can call me something else. Perhaps a very doubtful agnostic. Edit: Obviously I'm not attempting to make the case that it is impossible for God to exist.daveS
June 30, 2019
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