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COVID-19 and the need for skeptics in science

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Now more than ever:

Since World War II, America has suffered two respiratory pandemics comparable to COVID-19: the 1958 “Asian flu,” then the 1969 “Hong Kong flu.” In neither case did we shut down the economy—people were simply more careful. Not all that careful, of course—Jimi Hendrix was playing at Woodstock in the middle of the 1969 pandemic, and social distancing wasn’t really a thing in the “Summer of Love.”

And yet COVID-19 was very different thanks to a single “buggy mess” of a computer prediction from one Neil Ferguson, a British epidemiologist given to hysterical overestimates of deaths, from mad cow to bird flu to H1N1.

For COVID-19, Ferguson predicted 3 million deaths in America unless we basically shut down the economy. Panicked policymakers took his prediction as gospel, dressed as it was in the cloak of science.

Now, long after governments plunged half the world into a Great Depression, those panicked revisions are being quietly revised down by an order of magnitude, now suggesting a final tally comparable to 1958 and 1969.

COVID-19 would have been a deadly pandemic with or without Ferguson’s fantasies, but had we known the true scale and parameters of the threat we might have chosen better tailored means to both safeguard the elderly and at-risk, while sustaining the wider economy. After all, economists have long known that mass unemployment and widespread bankruptcies carry enormous health consequences that are very real to the victims suffering drained life savings, ruined businesses, broken families, widespread mental and physical health deterioration, even suicide. Decisions involve tradeoffs.

COVID-19 has illustrated the importance of free and robust inquiry…

Indeed, every major scientific advance challenged the “settled science” of its day, and was often denounced as pernicious and false, even dangerous. The modern blood transfusion, for example, was developed in the late 1600s, then banned for nearly a century by a hostile medical establishment, “canceling” tens of millions of lives at the altar of groupthink and hostility to skeptics.

Peter St. Onge, “The COVID-19 Panic Shows Us Why Science Needs Skeptics” at Mises Wire

The thing is, it used to just be sympathizers of some unpopular viewpoint like ID getting deplatformed. Now, COVID-19 has raised the stakes, with so many official sources demanding obedience to conflicting and wrong ideas. And our neighbors can’t afford to ignore just how destructive the establishment line, unfettered and unhinged, can be.

It’s a good time to talk to them about the problems with Establishment Science today. Too much arrogance and politicking; not enough humility or integrity.

Comments
53 studies (31 peer reviewed) showing “very positive” results using HCQ as pre & post exposure prophylaxis & early treatment- How can that be?ET
August 13, 2020
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Jerry
Another very positive story on HCQ from India.
From Jerry's linked article:
A senior doctor from Gujarat Medical Education Research Society (GMERS)-run Gotri Medical College, the biggest Covid1-9 facility in the city that also caters to neighbouring districts, says,...."Although HCQ, with or without Azithromycin and other supplements like zinc, will not help anyone who has tested positive, it definitely has an impact in preventive measures and reducing the complications.”
RHolt
August 13, 2020
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Another very positive story on HCQ from India. This time as a prophylactic. https://outline.com/75nmDw
Vadodara administration drive: HCQ helping in containing Covid-19 cases, say docs as analysis begins... Dr Hussain told this newspaper, “There are conflicting studies about the use of HCQ. While initially the US studies rejected it and cited side-effects, European countries backed its prophylactic use. In Vadodara, it has shown positive results. We have been able to restrict cases in clusters. Nagarwada no longer has a huge number of cases. We haven’t seen any one developing side effects.”
jerry
August 13, 2020
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Kulvinder Kaur, Medical doctor in Toronto
2020 was the year I came to the horrific conclusion that the sanctity of human life holds absolutely no value to our governments. Power and greed control the universe
She got that right as we see every day here. By the way the Canadian medical establishment is after her for endorsing HCQ. Someone said this is the reason there are so many negative articles about HCQ, https://defyccc.com/covid-19-panel-gilead-ties/ I come. to the conclusion that most of the objections to HCQ outside of the US comes from courting drug companies while in the US it is both that and hatred of Trump. The interesting thing is that Trump is trying to save lives by promoting HCQ but opposition to HCQ is essentially killing people. There is absolutely zero reasons to oppose HCQ unless there is a better treatment. But that is not the reasons given. All the reasons given are BS reasons. Then there is Bill Gates who essentially is after power.jerry
August 13, 2020
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The IDSA guideline panel recommends that, because of uncertainty regarding its risks and benefits, the use of HCQ should be only in the context of a clinical trial. Because of the potential for toxicity, the panel suggests against HCQ+AZ combination outside of a clinical trial. This recommendation does not address the use of AZ for secondary bacterial pneumonia in patients with COVID-19. Additional RCTs and prospective outcome registries are needed to inform research for treatment with HCQ alone or in combination with AZ for patients with COVID-19 (Table s2). Table 1 - https://www.idsociety.org/globalassets/idsa/practice-guidelines/covid-19/treatment/table-1.pdf Table 2 - https://www.idsociety.org/globalassets/idsa/practice-guidelines/covid-19/treatment/table-2.pdf https://www.idsociety.org/practice-guideline/covid-19-guideline-treatment-and-management/rhampton7
August 13, 2020
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As chairman of the COVID-19 Rapid Guidelines Expert Panel of the Infectious Diseases Society of America, Bhimraj leads the team that published and continues to frequently update the IDSA’s guidelines on the treatment and management of patients with the disease. The IDSA panel relies on the GRADE method for rating the quality of evidence for scientific research. (GRADE stands for Grading of Recommendations, Assessment, Development and Evaluation.) This approach involves evaluating such factors as whether studies have a risk of bias, and if they show inconsistent, unexplained variability in results from different trials and other factors. For example, studies based on clinical trials that were cut short could be biased, according to research published in the Journal of Evidence-Based Medicine. “We talk about available evidence on benefits and harms of medications being considered for treatment of COVID-19, including drugs that have attracted a lot of attention like hydroxychloroquine,” Anecdotes about the success or failure of a medication in clinical practice are just anecdotes, not scientific evidence,” he says. “Good studies measure what matters: Does a drug really save lives and alleviate suffering and not just make lab tests and X-rays look better? Such studies are also designed to minimize error and bias so we know the truth about a medication’s benefits and harms.” A sound study includes a control group of people who receive a placebo rather than the drug being studied. For example, if 80 of 100 people in a study improve after taking a medication, that may seem like a good outcome. That’s a lot less impressive if there’s a control group of 100 people, 80 of whom also get better after taking a placebo. “The people taking the medication may have gotten better without it,” he says. “You don’t know without having a control group.” https://wtop.com/news/2020/08/doctor-fights-covid-19-with-scientific-evidence/rhampton7
August 13, 2020
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MMT, actually, no. Without endorsing any particular American pol, a particularly degenerate species, leadership, notoriously is a conundrum of theory; but there are horses for courses. In a deeply radicalised, polarised, adverse situation, sometimes real leadership must stand against the tide of loud demands and claimed majority and refuse to make fatal compromises that would go along with a march of ruinous folly, as say Ac 27 aptly illustrates. Where, we are warned against those who will flock to such as will tickle their itching ears with what they wish to hear. Which is precisely what generations of undermining respect for God as source and moral governor of reality, linked dismissal of self evident first duties of our morally governed nature and consequent disintegration of key buttresses of sustainable constitutional democracy have led us to. For just one simple instance, in even a lawful oligarchic state there is no justification for riot [Ac 19 is a classic discussion], much less any reasonably functional constitutional democracy. And so soon as, without permit for a march, one impedes people going about the ordinary business of travel or simply enjoying the civil peace (and especially if one implicitly or explicitly threatens them) one is a rioter. If one enables those who are rioting, one is also a rioter, and we have not come to arson, swarming and committing assault, battery and mayhem, or attempting to cause grievous bodily harm by deliberately blinding people with lasers, or looting or trying to impose mob rule through intimidation and vandalism etc. Those who cheer such on or try to make light of what such is, are enablers or even manipulators or instigators like Demetrius. The USA would be well advised to consider where it is trying to take our civilisation. KF PS: On first duties of reason, a start-point for mindset change:
We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. Inescapable, as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Duties, to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour, so also to fairness and justice etc. Such built in law is not invented by parliaments or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. These duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifesting our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God.
kairosfocus
August 13, 2020
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Right on cue. Thanks Mac. You are clueless. No one can unite the USA as long as the democrats are going to act like spoiled little brats. The Democratic LEADERS killed tens of thousands of people. They wanted Trump out of their respective States' affairs. Unless he was going to bail them out because they totally messed up their States' finances. And it isn't that people just disagree. You have serious issues. Trump, the Leader, has the USA going strong. Finally negotiated a better trade deal with China. That is his forteET
August 13, 2020
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I don’t understand this need to try to blame President Trump for whatever it may be at any point in time.
He is supposed to be a leader. Leaders unite. Leaders give consistent messages. Leaders show empathy. Leaders don’t blame everyone else. Leaders don’t call those they disagree with, names. Leaders accept responsibility. Leaders support allies. Leaders leaders.... stop me when I reach one that applies to Trump.Mac McTavish
August 13, 2020
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JVL: Yes, lives matter. But you CAN NOT coherently explain why. Why should a bunch of chemicals worry about another bunch of chemicals? If human lives and human health are UNIVERSAL goods, you are stating a UNIVERSAL truth. But materialism DOES NOT allow for universal truths. You are holding contradictory views. And I have the RIGHT to tell you (and other evolutionists/ materialists) so. Because THE TRUTH is something good, something to STRIVE FOR. Prolonging people's lives to force them to "know" they are pointless heaps of chemicals with no purpose... To me, JVL, that's akin to torture. IMMORAL and REPULSIVE. Thank God materialism is false.Truthfreedom
August 13, 2020
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I don't understand this need to try to blame President Trump for whatever it may be at any point in time. Haters gotta hateET
August 13, 2020
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UB, these wider themes in fact show that the problem is not confined to the design inference. The party of science is too often surprisingly unscientific and ideological. KFkairosfocus
August 13, 2020
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JVL: I’m talking about empirical, data driven science. And you’re refusal to address challenges to your views that you requested.
You are a flaming anti-science hypocrite JVL. Truly so. Would you like to start our conversation over about your claim of "no evidence for design" in biology -- and have it be publicly shown once again that you clearly and deliberately ignore that evidence? This is, after all, a website about design in biology. No matter how many times we have that conversation, not one thing will change - the physics will not change, the recorded literature will not change, the documented history of discovery will not change, the fundamental material prerequisites will not change, and neither will your unwavering ideological need to dismiss it all in favor of your priori worldview. You do realize, don't you, that these conversations are recorded in text, and can be quickly recalled with just a click of the mouse?Upright BiPed
August 13, 2020
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ET, also distribution and general climate. KFkairosfocus
August 13, 2020
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JVL, did you actually look at the data as shown? It clearly demonstrated that the US was in line with the rest of the world (including a cluster of advanced countries) on its age profile. Similarly, cases and fatalities were on the way down. Subsequently there was an obvious injection triggering a second peak, now fading. Your rhetorical zinger smart quip fails. KF PS: Let's note cumulative deaths per million, per statistica. Are you willing to call out Belgium, the UK, Spain, Italy & Sweden as more dismal failures attaching to their national leadership, and France as almost as bad? If not, then why not accept that a pandemic is bad news and will kill many, never mind what we do? We fight it but take our licks.kairosfocus
August 13, 2020
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JVL:
Explain why it is unfair to compare the US to most of the Scandinavian countries. Go on. And Canada?
Population density. Are you daft?ET
August 13, 2020
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LoL! @ JVL- YOU are the one trying to pin something on the USA's Federal Government. You are clueless. The people of the USA thankfully aren't like the sheep in the rest of the world.ET
August 13, 2020
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Truthfreedom: Democratic Governors = survival of the fittest (fittest being those in power). Leftists hate life (the un-born, the old, the “de-formed”). But you're not really trying to have a discussion so we can ignore your contributions.JVL
August 13, 2020
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ET: Umm, people working in food processing plants have become infected. If we close those down then what? Truckers get infected. If we close down trucking, then what? What exactly are you objecting too with these issues? Hard and fast lockdown? In which case the people in processing plants might not have become infected. Or truckers? I don't get what point exactly you're trying to make. Earth to JVL- Democratic Governors sent sick elderly people back to nursing homes. Tens of thousands died because of that. Those are the only deaths that can be blamed on any US Government. And it ain’t the Federal level that was the problem. Did I advocate sending sick elderly people back to nursing homes? No, I did not. You're bringing up things that have nothing to do with what I said.JVL
August 13, 2020
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Kairosfocus: JVL, did you consider a fairly obvious geographical factor-cluster for Scandinavian countries and likely Canada too? Look, just make your point clearly and in a straightforward mannor. Explain why it is unfair to compare the US to most of the Scandinavian countries. Go on. And Canada? Please do tell. And make sure you back it up with real data please.JVL
August 13, 2020
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Jerry: Now substitute science for philosophy. Your materialist main-stream-church-approved philosophy to be precise. You get the picture, do not you? No, I don't. I'm talking about empirical, data driven science. And you're refusal to address challenges to your views that you requested. And you implying that RIGHT REASON and HEALTH (something that implies less suffering and a prolonged life) are UNIVERSAL moral goods we all should strive for, is depressing. Well gosh, I didn't expect anyone of any persuasion to tell me that standing up for right, reason and health is depressing. Maybe I'm on the wrong bus. Because you are a moral relativist. And there is no good/ bad in your world. In your interpretation of what you assume my view is. I thought we both thought lives matter. Painful to watch. Materialism is the strangest cult ever. Even Scientology makes more sense. Whatever. Bill Gates lies about HCQ. Why? It has nothing to do with money since he has mountains of it. Is it about ego and control? Are you just going to ignore the issues you ask people to address and then when they did you've ignored them. Really? There are no severe side effects. It’s one of the most prescribed drugs in the world. Depends on the dosage. So people live in news bubbles. My guess that explains a lot of the negative people here. They are unaware of what is really happening and by habit or by choice limit themselves to very restricted news sources. And some people, like you, protest and protest and protest that no one is addressing your concerns. And then when someone comes along and addresses them specifically you just ignore them. A complete blank. What does that say?JVL
August 13, 2020
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Kairosfocus: By April, exceptionally poor management by the US should have been obvious. KF And I think it was apparent by then. If you consider all the data. JVL, I have added to my new, reference OP some Worldometers charts for the US documenting a break in the pattern of the epidemic Mar-April and another across June. Reminder, slope of a log-lin plot correlates to doubling time. This addition includes a significant secondary wave now beginning to taper off similar to the primary one in April to May. KF Fine. But look at the countries with a much lower death per capita toll. Look at what they did to stomp out COVID-19 in their countries. Look at how they took care of their poor and young. Look at how they got their economies up and running again. And remember that you didn't answer my question about scale or structural differences. Or why, indeed, we should grant the richest nation on the planet an lesser ability to cope with the situation. Please explain that.JVL
August 13, 2020
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Democratic Governors sent sick elderly people back to nursing homes.
My wife just got off the phone talking with an old friend who is ultra liberal and from suburban New York City. She was unaware of any problems with nursing home people in New York and she likes to keep up with the news. So people live in news bubbles. My guess that explains a lot of the negative people here. They are unaware of what is really happening and by habit or by choice limit themselves to very restricted news sources.jerry
August 13, 2020
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Bill Gates lies about HCQ. Why? It has nothing to do with money since he has mountains of it. Is it about ego and control?
What about the conversation around hydroxychloroquine, which the White House has promoted despite its repeatedly being shown to be ineffective and, in fact, to cause heart problems in some patients? This is an age of science, but sometimes it doesn’t feel that way. In the test tube, hydroxychloroquine looked good. On the other hand, there are lots of good therapeutic drugs coming that are proven to work without the severe side effects.
There are no severe side effects. It's one of the most prescribed drugs in the world. Someone should tell Bill that Ivermectin may be just as effective and even more safe. It might rain on his parade.jerry
August 13, 2020
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JVL, I have added to my new, reference OP some Worldometers charts for the US documenting a break in the pattern of the epidemic Mar-April and another across June. Reminder, slope of a log-lin plot correlates to doubling time. This addition includes a significant secondary wave now beginning to taper off similar to the primary one in April to May. KFkairosfocus
August 13, 2020
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Democratic Governors = survival of the fittest (fittest being those in power). Leftists hate life (the un-born, the old, the "de-formed").Truthfreedom
August 13, 2020
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Earth to JVL- Democratic Governors sent sick elderly people back to nursing homes. Tens of thousands died because of that. Those are the only deaths that can be blamed on any US Government. And it ain't the Federal level that was the problem.ET
August 13, 2020
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Umm, people working in food processing plants have become infected. If we close those down then what? Truckers get infected. If we close down trucking, then what?ET
August 13, 2020
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JVL, did you consider a fairly obvious geographical factor-cluster for Scandinavian countries and likely Canada too? KFkairosfocus
August 13, 2020
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If you will not consider all the available data then what are you doing? It’s not science. All good scientist take in everything availble to them. They do not want to be made to look foolish because they neglected some pertinent information. You can’t pick and choose; when you pick and choose you loose. Because you miss something that might make the difference. Now substitute science for philosophy. Your materialist main-stream-church-approved philosophy to be precise. You get the picture, do not you? And you implying that RIGHT REASON and HEALTH (something that implies less suffering and a prolonged life) are UNIVERSAL moral goods we all should strive for, is depressing. Because you are a moral relativist. And there is no good/ bad in your world. Painful to watch. Materialism is the strangest cult ever. Even Scientology makes more sense.Truthfreedom
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