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COVID-19 and the need for skeptics in science

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Now more than ever:

Since World War II, America has suffered two respiratory pandemics comparable to COVID-19: the 1958 “Asian flu,” then the 1969 “Hong Kong flu.” In neither case did we shut down the economy—people were simply more careful. Not all that careful, of course—Jimi Hendrix was playing at Woodstock in the middle of the 1969 pandemic, and social distancing wasn’t really a thing in the “Summer of Love.”

And yet COVID-19 was very different thanks to a single “buggy mess” of a computer prediction from one Neil Ferguson, a British epidemiologist given to hysterical overestimates of deaths, from mad cow to bird flu to H1N1.

For COVID-19, Ferguson predicted 3 million deaths in America unless we basically shut down the economy. Panicked policymakers took his prediction as gospel, dressed as it was in the cloak of science.

Now, long after governments plunged half the world into a Great Depression, those panicked revisions are being quietly revised down by an order of magnitude, now suggesting a final tally comparable to 1958 and 1969.

COVID-19 would have been a deadly pandemic with or without Ferguson’s fantasies, but had we known the true scale and parameters of the threat we might have chosen better tailored means to both safeguard the elderly and at-risk, while sustaining the wider economy. After all, economists have long known that mass unemployment and widespread bankruptcies carry enormous health consequences that are very real to the victims suffering drained life savings, ruined businesses, broken families, widespread mental and physical health deterioration, even suicide. Decisions involve tradeoffs.

COVID-19 has illustrated the importance of free and robust inquiry…

Indeed, every major scientific advance challenged the “settled science” of its day, and was often denounced as pernicious and false, even dangerous. The modern blood transfusion, for example, was developed in the late 1600s, then banned for nearly a century by a hostile medical establishment, “canceling” tens of millions of lives at the altar of groupthink and hostility to skeptics.

Peter St. Onge, “The COVID-19 Panic Shows Us Why Science Needs Skeptics” at Mises Wire

The thing is, it used to just be sympathizers of some unpopular viewpoint like ID getting deplatformed. Now, COVID-19 has raised the stakes, with so many official sources demanding obedience to conflicting and wrong ideas. And our neighbors can’t afford to ignore just how destructive the establishment line, unfettered and unhinged, can be.

It’s a good time to talk to them about the problems with Establishment Science today. Too much arrogance and politicking; not enough humility or integrity.

Comments
MMT, the strain I am pointing to builds up, it is not initial discomfort. I am again trying a new "light duty" mask. KFkairosfocus
August 12, 2020
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Hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine inhibit T-cell activation pathway suggesting that if T-cell mediated immunity conveys some protection from COVID-19 taking these drugs may inhibit this response. from a reference I previously posted:
Hydroxychloroquine and its analogue chloroquine have immunomodulatory and anti-inflammatory properties and have been used for decades in the treatment of diverse T-cell–mediated immune diseases such as systemic lupus erythematosus and steroid-resistant graft-vs-host disease.8 These drugs are thought to interfere with a number of steps in the T-cell activation pathway such as major histocompatibility complex (MHC) class II antigen presentation9 and T-cell receptor–mediated intracellular calcium signaling.10
RHolt
August 12, 2020
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Thanks again, JerryET
August 12, 2020
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The latest on Tcells from MedCram 101 https://bit.ly/31LjUVl As always MedCram is highly informative. Is inherent Tcell immunity what has been called the dark matter of the population that explains infections or infections that don't progress very far? See interview with Karl Friston in early June. https://bit.ly/31FLiUK Another good source for information but just reporting as opposed to an expert commenting is Nicki Louise of Tech Startups. https://bit.ly/3fODPaX Recent topics include both the Russian and Moderna vaccine (also covered on MedCram), Scott Atlas, C19 patient interactions, drug discovery, Big Phrma, etc. When I was in graduate school we studied ways people learn. The secret is to learn from weak connections not strong connections. Strong connections will just reinforce your already possibly wrong perceptions while weak connections will challenge them and help one find more accurate information. Hans Rosling pointed out in his book, Factfulness, that the more educated you are the more ignorant you are. Primarily because of this strong connection effect.jerry
August 12, 2020
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Will there be a change in C19 policy? Dr. Scott Atlas has just been appointed to the C19 task force. Here is an article that he wrote in April. https://bit.ly/2F9FMlA In it he highlights 5 observations and then things to be done.
Fact 1: The overwhelming majority of people do not have any significant risk of dying from COVID-19. True Fact 2: Protecting older, at-risk people eliminates hospital overcrowding . True and not done in most of the world Fact 3: Vital population immunity is prevented by total isolation policies, prolonging the problem . I believe this is true but has not gotten any response in media since fear by total numbers seems to be the name of the game today. Fact 4: People are dying because other medical care is not getting done due to hypothetical projections True Fact 5: We have a clearly defined population at risk who can be protected with targeted measures . True but seems same as Fact 2
Is Dr. Atlas more likely to speak the truth than Dr. Fauci who has been lying before Congress and the press? Will there be a bigger emphasis on early treatment which we know to be possible but which Fauci had denied exists? Here is a recent interview with Dr. Atlas where he discusses the implication for schools and how we treat children. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OIHBlt0R1k&feature=youtu.bejerry
August 12, 2020
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Yes, masks can be uncomfortable. They are hot, they initially give you the impression that you can't breath, your glasses fog up if you wear them, but they are critical to getting the outbreak under control. And with some exceptions, the risk to the person wearing one is almost nil. Whereas the mask is more effective at preventing the wearer from spreading the virus than from catching the virus, the shield reduces the risk to the wearer by protecting the eyes.Mac McTavish
August 12, 2020
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A shield or a mask is OK. You can wear both and should in a hospital setting. The shield has to go around your face and below your chin.ET
August 12, 2020
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ET, why not, Comrade? Even if there is a friendly local 4 am visit?kairosfocus
August 12, 2020
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ET shields are to be worn with masks.kairosfocus
August 12, 2020
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oops, virus vaccine for CV19kairosfocus
August 12, 2020
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As for the Russian vaccine, I know I won't be standing in any line to get that shot.ET
August 12, 2020
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If a mask bothers you then wear a face shield.ET
August 12, 2020
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KF: Sputnik is an echo of the shock in 1957 Just like then, they got there first!JVL
August 12, 2020
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Mac
if a large enough percentage of people wear them, the reproduction rate can be significantly reduced, protecting those who are unable to wear masks.
How true! Dr. Norman, Kansas heath official reported the results of the Kansas mask mandate experiement. Cunties who opted for a mask mandate show a dramatic decline in Covid cases when compared to counties who did not implement a mask mandate. Here is a link that contains the graphic: https://www.wibwnewsnow.com/kdhe-kansas-experiment-shows-masks-work/ I can sympathize with KF and mask wearing. My wife is also a severe asthmatic and it has taken her a bit of getting used to wearing a mask but she realizes the growing need to do so in an ever increasing case load environment for her own safety.RHolt
August 12, 2020
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KF
At 335.87 g/mol, that is 1.19 mmol in what 6 l of blood, ~ 2*10^-4 molar, crude.
KF, your calculations and assumptions result in an estimate of whole blood concentrations of chloroquine of 200 uMol. That figure is 100 times recognized fatal and toxic thresholds for chloroquine. Stead AH, Moffat AC. A collection of therapeutic, toxic and fatal blood drug concentrations in man. Hum Toxicol. 1983;2:437–64. Stead and Moffat report fatal and toxic whole blood concentrations of 7 and 2.3 uMol/L for chloroquine. I would revisit your calculations and associated assumptions to figure out why there is this large discrepancy between your values and reported pharmacokinetics parameters of chloroquine. Jerry I would be happy to discuss the research that demonstrate HCQ has little to no efficacy of Covid-19 antiviral activity. To claim that such research does not exists is as you say 'absurd'. My responses will be semi-sporadic over the next few days since I am tending to a friend just released from hospital and in home hospice careRHolt
August 12, 2020
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RH7, Sputnik is an echo of the shock in 1957. I have doubts on sustainable efficacy of any virus. KFkairosfocus
August 12, 2020
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:Russian President Vladimir Putin announced Tuesday that Russia is the first country in the world to grant regulatory approval for a COVID-19 vaccine—dubbed “Sputnik V.” Putin claimed that one of his own daughters has already received a dose of the vaccine, according to reports from Moscow—though he didn’t note which daughter. Russian officials pledged to vaccinate millions within the month, starting with healthcare workers and teachers.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/08/russia-rushes-to-distribute-its-untested-covid-19-vaccine-sputnik-v/JVL
August 12, 2020
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MMT, I am speaking mainly in our thinking and discussions. When there is for example a significant social pressure, exceptions - especially invisible ones, become subject to undue pressure. This is familiar to me in dealing with many things. In discussions, the need for balance is too often missing and to try to explain is often to set up misperceptions and more. And it is needless to have to point this out over and over in our discussion. KFkairosfocus
August 12, 2020
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KF
MMT, they are often overlooked, never mind provisions.
They are not overlooked. Many cities require masks for people entering stores and malls. If you have a medical reason for not wearing one, all you have to do is show the doctor’s note stating this. Same with airlines. Do you have any specific examples of people being required to wear a mask when they have a medical reason why they can’t? There are certain situations where the risk is too high to allow people not to wear masks (eg, nursing homes in outbreak areas). But the only examples I have seen of people being questioned about not wearing a mask is when the person refusing to wear a mask is being belligerent and abusive.Mac McTavish
August 11, 2020
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MMT, they are often overlooked, never mind provisions. KFkairosfocus
August 11, 2020
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KF
MMT, I noted several limitations to masks, which are too often overlooked.
They are not overlooked. Even where mask wearing is mandatory, exceptions are made for people with respiratory problems like asthma and COPD. And it has been made clear that wearing a mask doesn’t necessarily protect you from COVID, but it reduces the chance of you spreading it. Which, just like herd immunity, if a large enough percentage of people wear them, the reproduction rate can be significantly reduced, protecting those who are unable to wear masks.Mac McTavish
August 11, 2020
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RHolt, I suspect, concentration in water is but slightly related to that in body. Next, modification of pH (one of the evident attack modes) is remarkably effective at low but sufficient concentrations. As, you may recall from end points of titrations with either indicator or electrical detection. A single drop is often the difference for the jump once neutrality is met. But, this is still very much a matter of a side track. And, doctors and their patients, if you checked actual cases, report dramatic changes in the first 24 hours, with a cumulative dose usually 400 mg. At 335.87 g/mol, that is 1.19 mmol in what 6 l of blood, ~ 2*10^-4 molar, crude. Also 400 mg/6 l = 67 mg/l, 4 times higher than in the fish tank. I gather it has about a 50 day half life in the body. That sort of conc is IIRC more or less typical order for a lot of things like antibiotics. KFkairosfocus
August 11, 2020
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MMT, I noted several limitations to masks, which are too often overlooked. Notwithstanding, I do try (usually with a cotton cloth mask of local manufacture), and in fact go all the way up to a light gas mask too if that seems advisable. KFkairosfocus
August 11, 2020
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KF
RH7, I have impaired lung capacity, being a lifelong asthmatic, etc. I repeatedly, reliably experience the difference between free breathing and the debilitating experience of using masks for extended periods.
Mask wearing isn’t the cure. And not everyone is capable of wearing them, yourself being an example. But they are one of the tools in the tool kit being used to limit spread. Regions and countries that have instituted masks in indoor spaces and where distancing is not possible, have Managed to keep the community spread at low levels.Mac McTavish
August 11, 2020
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no, effect that has been observed
Absolute nonsense. I am aware of no study that undermines HCQ. Nor is anyone else here including its critics. The latter have failed to produce one when asked. Maybe you want to give it a shot.jerry
August 11, 2020
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First, US media and now Canadian media go after women of color medical doctors for not toeing the line. Last week it was Dr Stella Immanuel and this week it is Dr. Kulvinder Kaur. https://bit.ly/30N1ioI The press in Canada like the press and social media in the United States uses bogus studies to attack anyone not in step with liberal principles, that is letting people die for a good cause.
One of her tweets, from Aug. 6, stated: "#Humanity's existing effective defences against #COVID19 to safely return to normal life now includes: -Truth, -T-cell Immunity, -Hydroxychloroquine." That tweet has since been taken down for violating Twitter's rules. Twitter doesn't confirm what rules a specific tweet may have violated when it has been taken down. Many doctors also replied critically to Gill's tweet.
Is saving lives no longer the objective, but paying homage to bureaucrats and our social media gurus is? I love the graphic with this tweet. https://bit.ly/33OxYjy kept a copy of it in case it is taken down.jerry
August 11, 2020
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KFrabbit trail, dosage in water in a tank is irrelevant to the point that attacks at cross-kingdom level point to core cell functions Irrelevant? I hardy think so. If it takes that dosage to affect the biochemical processes at the cross-kingdom level at core cell functions do you think you would see these effects at a dose 100-1000 times lower? If not than the comparable biochemical effective concentrations in humans are unattainable. Yes, we have dose regime recomendations of HCQ and CQ for humans with quite wide variations in response to COVID-19. The higher the quality of the trial (using HCQ or CQ) the less, to no, effect that has been observed.RHolt
August 11, 2020
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RHolt, rabbit trail, dosage in water in a tank is irrelevant to the point that attacks at cross-kingdom level point to core cell functions. We already have protocols relevant to dosage in people. KFkairosfocus
August 11, 2020
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KF
Chloroquine is typically dosed at a rate of 10 to 20 milligrams per liter (mg/l), with 15 mg/l being considered a “standard dose”
That is a whooping large dose of chloroquine. Do you think that a comparable dose in humans might just be quite toxic? If you cannot dose a human at that level how is going to effect these hypothesized biochemical pathways? A back of the envelope calculations based on pharmacokinetic data for chloroquine indicates that to achieve that concentration in humans (at peak values and assuming linearity) would mean that typical chloroquine dosing would have to be increased between 100-1000 times the recomended safe loading dose.RHolt
August 11, 2020
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Why I choose quercetin with my zinc:
Quercetin – a naturally occurring zinc ionophore. Quercetin is a flavonoid (a type of polyphenol) that’s present in a variety of edible plants – from herbs like cilantro and dill, to veggies and fruit such as onion, kale and cranberries, with the highest concentration found in capers. Quercetin was demonstrated to be a zinc ionophore in 2014.
That is probably why the EVMS also recommends it. You don't need a prescription to get it. AND it also points to personal diets as a form of protection from viruses. The article also points out the significance of zinc in fighting diseases. I would bet that people deficient in essential vitamins and minerals make up the bulk of fatalities.ET
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