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Darwin’s Doubt author Steve Meyer on methodological naturalism (materialism)

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Darwin's Doubt

… with an aside from physicist Rob Sheldon.

Further to materialism guarantees impasse, Meyer writes,

As science advanced in the late nineteenth century, it increasingly excluded appeals to divine action or divine ideas as a way of explaining phenomena in the natural world. This practice came to be codified in a principle known as methodological naturalism. According to this principle, scientsits should accept as a working assumption that all features of the natural world can be explained by material causes without recourse to purposive intelligence, mind, or conscious agency.

Proponents of methodological naturalism argue that science has been so successful precisely because it has assiduously avoided invoking creative intelligence and, instead, searched out strictly material causes for previously mysterious features of the natural world. In the 1840s, the French philosopher August Comte argued that science progresses through three [20] distinct phases. In its theological phase, it invokes the mysterious action of the gods to explain natural phenomena, whether thunderbolts or the spread of disease. In a second, more advanced, metaphysical stage, scientific explanations refer to abstract concepts like Plato’s forms or Aristotle’s final causes. Comte taught that science only reaches maturity when it casts aside such abstractions and explains natural phenomena by reference to natural laws or strictly material causes or processes. Only in this third and final stage, he argued, can science achieve “positive” knowledge. – Darwin’s Doubt, pp. 20–21.

It’s not clear to a modern observer that Comte’s first phase is science at all. If the only thing to be said about disease is that the gods send it, that doesn’t leave much of a field for research. And indeed, people who believe that do not do any research; they, wisely from their perspective, put their energies into placating the gods.

Rob Sheldon made the point here recently that

Methodological naturalism works great on superstition and animism. It evolved as a response to the inborn nature of humans to “wear the lucky blue sock”.

Yes, the instinct to try to manipulate reality instead of studying it.

Now, it’s not clear that Plato or Aristotle were doing science either. They were trying to determine the framework of reality in which science could be done—a prior project, it seems to me. Thus, Aristotle may be regarded as a founder of science, but not, strictly speaking, a scientist (whether we are fans of MN or not).

When we come to the third phase, material causes, Sheldon adds, re MN,

… it prevents the doing of good science, as you point out, because it cannot question its own presuppositions. Therefore it is a “vestige” of formerly useful organs, a “living fossil” of what is no longer viable.

The presupposition that mind, whatever it is, can be reduced to matter is a good example. Crackpot theory reigns.

Fair enough, the truly cracked pots are regularly discarded in favour of pots with only a few deepening fissures, and if that is what we mean by progress, well, researchers can go on making that sort of progress indefinitely. No reasonable person envies their position: The simple fact that information (the substance of the mind) is not material, and cannot be dealt with as if it were. That fact cannot by definition be allowed to penetrate the fog. Here’s a thought from evolutionary biologist G. C. Williams that sums up a part of the problem:

“Information doesn’t have mass or charge or length in millimeters. Likewise, matter doesn’t have bytes. You can’t measure so much gold in so many bytes. It doesn’t have redundancy, or fidelity, or any of the other descriptors we apply to information. This dearth of shared descriptors makes matter and information two separate domains of existence, which have to be discussed separately, in their own terms.” – G. C. Williams, quoted in By Design or by Chance?, p. 234.

Bound to be ignored.

A compensating factor is that it is easier to write about the resulting nonsense, which hardly repays study, than it would be to write about serious gains in understanding, which stretch the mind. Still, around here, we’d all prefer the latter anyway. – O’Leary for News

Comments
…present natural science does not have causally efficacious consciousness that can cause anything at all..
Such as creating hypotheses, or theories, or setting up experimental apparatus and perform tests, or generating models and creating simulations of those models in computers.Mung
November 3, 2013
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nightlight:
...present natural science does not have causally efficacious consciousness that can cause anything at all..
Including, of course, causing robots that can draw pictures.
...hence it can’t originate life or design complex molecules either.
Hence, robots that draw pictures are not possible, either.Mung
November 3, 2013
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Nightlight @ 55, The ID hypothesis is already on the table – that some features of the natural world are best explained by the act of an intelligent agent, as opposed to unguided processes. An inherent prediction of ID has been that the information in the genome is semiotic in nature. The material conditions required for semiosis can be demonstrated to be evident during protein synthesis, and thus, that prediction has been satisfied.Upright BiPed
November 3, 2013
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Nightlight @ 54, re: Your continued insistence on the general position (i.e. that all things must be measurable by science in order to be considered by science): We know there are phenomena which cannot be measured, because if they were measurable they could not function as they do. This is what I was pointing out to you earlier; some things are measurable, while others are not because they can’t be, so they must be demonstrated locally in order to know they exist. This demonstration of regularity has been historically effective for science to advance knowledge, in fact, the advancement of knowledge has depended on it. So (really) you can stop demanding that all things be measurable – your demand is not only invalidated by the history of science, it violates the nature of reality itself. Besides that, demarcation arguments against ID are typically pursued only to avoid data. They are useless (i.e. boring), and the most useless and boring of them are those already invalidated in the pursuit of science. As for your specific argument, I can see (from your verbosity) how much you have invested in it and that you intend on re-wording and re-detailing it over and over again. It simply won’t matter to you that it’s invalidated by recorded history. There is little that can be done about that.Upright BiPed
November 3, 2013
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@Upright BiPed #53
I don't have to defend a position on consciousness in order to make an argument for ID; my argument is much more narrow. If I were to make a statement about an arrangement of matter than can evoke a functional effect within a system, but because this arrangement must remain physicochemically arbitrary to the effect it evokes, it requires a second arrangement of matter to establish a local relationship - then I can only be talking about something within the living kingdom (i.e. translated information). It's something that requires pre-existing organization in order to exist, and it was required prior to the onset of cellular life. Period.
Well, of course if you drop 'conscious agency' as the causal source of the design, you are fine as far not having to argue about status of 'consciousness' in the present natural science. But you still need to fill in a scientific hypothesis. You have reached the point above of "requires pre-existent organization." So, what exactly is the scientific hypothesis you propose that science should test? Is it: "the origin of life and its evolution were designed by the 'pre-existing organization'." ? That has a bit of tautological ring to it, since any state of the physical system is caused by the previous (pre-existent) state of the physical system. It doesn't seem there is anything that needs testing about such hypothesis, since that is already well known property of the physical systems which is encoded in the dynamical equations of physics. How do you express in the language of natural science the intelligence attribute of that 'pre-existent organization' ? The next paragraph you wrote doesn't help very much in locating the scientific hypothesis you are proposing:
However, if I make the statement that this material arrangement (that evokes the effect) is actually made up of a sequence of individual arrangements taken from a finite set of arrangements, and those individual arrangements each exist independent of thermodynamic law - then I can only be talking about language, mathematics and protein synthesis. It's something that requires the same establishment of physicochemically arbitrary relationships as in the previous paragraph, but it also requires the establishment of the dimensional operation of the system, again, prior to the onset of cellular life.
That's a bit vague for a scientific hypothesis. What is "dimensional operation" ? I get a sense that you are saying that DNA and cellular machinery are language-like, which is observation many have made and being an impression as what DNA reminds you of, there is nothing there that needs testing or falsifying. Can you explicitly state a complete, self-contained scientific hypothesis that can be tested or falsified by natural science? You basically need to make a leap at this point and say something new beyond the often heard observations such as what it all looks like to you or reminds you of. You need to state a hypothesis on what can produce such system, what is the causal source, what are its characteristics and where or how would natural science look for the proposed causal source of such arrangements and verify or falsify it. If you leap into 'conscious agency' as the causal source, we're leaving the present naural science and entering the realm of philosophy and theology, and it's back to my previous post and the critique of the DI's ID. If you leap into 'computational process' as the causal source, then we agree.nightlight
November 3, 2013
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@Upright BiPed #53 From your response, I think there is one question that has to be clarified, before the questions Q1 and Q2 I brought up in post #52 make sense. Namely, I was starting with an unstated assumption motivated by the statements and behaviors of the Discovery Institute and their supporters here. So this is the question zero which I would like to see answered here: Q0. Do Discovery Institute (DI) and its supporters want ID to be a hypothesis of the present natural science? If the answer is NO, then there is nothing to argue with them or their supporters here since we completely agree -- the DI's ID is a philosophical-theological thesis not a scientific hypothesis within present natural science, as explained in Q1 and Q earlier, and that is what they wished ID to be. But why then do they and their supporters here complain of being unfairly rejected or "expelled" from the natural science for being un-scientific? Or that they can't teach ID in science classes or at universities or publish ID in scientific journals? Hence, the only answer to Q0 consistent with the above behaviors of DI and their supporters is YES -- they meant the ID hypothesis to be taken as a hypothesis of the present natural science. If so, i.e. if they do wish the ID to become a part of the present natural science, they will have to drop the "conscious agency" as the causal source of the design since present natural science does not have causally efficacious consciousness that can cause anything at all, hence it can't originate life or design complex molecules either. The present natural science doesn't even have a method to establish the mere existence of consciousness anywhere, in humans, animals or in anything else, let alone demonstrate that consciousness can cause any effects on matter-energy at all. Hence, within present natural science the statement that 'conscious agency' has designed and built life and its complex molecules is meaningless statement. As explained in the post #52 after question Q2, the only way to fix DI's ID hypothesis so it can become a hypothesis of the present natural science, while retaining the 'conscious agency' as the causal source of the design, is to enlarge the DI's ID hypothesis into a 3 part hypothesis: a) consciousness exist b) consciousness scientifically established in [a] exerts causal effects on matter-energy c) as special case of [b], consciousness has causally affected origin of life and its evolution (e.g. designed & built required complex molecules) Here, the original DI's ID is pushed down into the third place since [a] and [b] need to be scientifically established before the [c] can be expressed as scientifically meaningful hypothesis (since [c] is a special case of [b] and [b] requires [a] as its key building block; [a] is the subject of the sentence [b]). But now with the enlarged DI hypothesis, considering the long history of failures regarding [a] and [b], we are looking at possibly another hundred or thousand years before [a] and [b] could be established as scientific facts, and only then, when causally efficacious consciousness has become part of some far future natural science, the original DI's ID [c] can be accepted with its apparently precious 'conscious agency' as the causal source of the design. So the only question that we need to clarify is Q0 -- do DI and its supporters want ID to be a part of present natural science? If the answer is NO, then we are in complete agreement, there is nothing to debate. If the answer is YES, then the conclusions deduced earlier follow automatically -- DI's ID must be altered either as: A1) 3 part hypothesis [a] + [b] + [c] and wait a long time for some future natural science, before part [c] gets its turn or as: A2) it must drop the 'conscious agency' as the causal source of the design and replace it with something that can design and that is causally efficacious within the present natural science, such as 'computational process'. Having gone through this circle before at UD, the typical response here is to attack the "present natural science" as inadequate since it cannot account for something that is the most obvious experience anyone could have -- consciousness and its causal efficacy in matter-energy realm. Well, OK, we all agree that the "present natural science" is inadequate, and some future natural science, in hundred or in thousand years may solve the problems [a] and [b]. In other words, by attacking inadequacy of the present natural science, you are now changing answer YES to Q0 and choosing answer NO, and have decided to follow path (A1) -- you wish to keep the 'conscious agency' as causal source and wait for some future more complete natural science which has solved problems [a] and [b], so that [c] can be meaningfully stated as a scientific hypothesis within that more complete future natural science. In the meantime, the [c] cannot not become a hypothesis of any natural science which lacks [a] and [b], and will thus remain what it is now, a philosophical-theological thesis. Which means, you can't teach ID in science class as a scientific hypothesis and an alternative to neo-Darwinian hypothesis. You also have no grounds to whine of being unfairly "expelled" from science journals or university science courses since you choose to wait for some future natural science in which 'conscious agency' is scientifically meaningful so you can state your hypothesis [c] as meaningful scientific hypothesis. But you can't have your cake and eat it too -- you can't keep the 'conscious agency' as causal source of the design and still have [c] as the scientific hypothesis of the present natural science since [c] is meaningless in the present natural science (without [a] and [b] checked off as scientifically meaningful first). So, I would like to hear the answer to question Q0 above, then to Q1 and Q2 from the post #52 if they differ from mine (NO on Q1 and YES on Q2). If Q0 is YES, then it logically follows that (A2) is the only path which can get you there.nightlight
November 3, 2013
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Nightlight, GP’s argument (if I may) is based on the simple premise that you can’t un-know what you already know to be true – or more specifically, the only thing you can actually directly know for certain is that you exist, i.e. you are conscious of your existence; you can separate yourself from the world and interact with that world. Everything else is an inference. We look for regularities to make our best inferences, and those inferences that are precisely the same for everyone are considered laws, reality and truth. His premise is instantaneously applicable to any scientific investigation, and it’s preposterous to suggest that it isn’t applicable to the only thing we can actually know for certain. Consciousness agents exists and interact with the world. ID proponents relish the day that the counter-argument is reduced to not knowing whether conscious agents exist and interact with the world. :) I don’t have to defend a position on consciousness in order to make an argument for ID; my argument is much more narrow. If I were to make a statement about an arrangement of matter than can evoke a functional effect within a system, but because this arrangement must remain physicochemically arbitrary to the effect it evokes, it requires a second arrangement of matter to establish a local relationship – then I can only be talking about something within the living kingdom (i.e. translated information). It’s something that requires pre-existing organization in order to exist, and it was required prior to the onset of cellular life. Period. However, if I make the statement that this material arrangement (that evokes the effect) is actually made up of a sequence of individual arrangements taken from a finite set of arrangements, and those individual arrangements each exist independent of thermodynamic law – then I can only be talking about language, mathematics and protein synthesis. It’s something that requires the same establishment of physicochemically arbitrary relationships as in the previous paragraph, but it also requires the establishment of the dimensional operation of the system, again, prior to the onset of cellular life. GP gets to the claim that conscious agents interact with the world from the simple premise that one cannot legitimately deny the only thing they can know to be true, and I get the claim that massive pre-existing organization (as well as the material capacity for language and mathematics) preceded cellular life from the simple premise that it’s not possible to translate recorded information into a material effect without using an arrangement of matter or energy as an information-bearing medium. Those are the intractable facts, and both claims are defended by universal observation.Upright BiPed
November 2, 2013
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@Upright BiPed #50
Nightlight, there are things in nature that are measurable, and there are things in nature that are not measurable, but must be demonstrated instead. Both exists in reality. To propose that the latter are `outside of science', or even worse, `not real', does not comport with the documented history of science.
No one is suggesting anything about un/reality of consciousness. In fact, far from denying its existence in humans as I am being repeatedly accused of, as a panpsychist I believe that consciousness is a fundamental attribute of all matter-energy in the universe, not just of the matter-energy chunks making up human brains. But that's another topic altogether. Q1. The issue debated is whether consciousness can produce any causal effects on matter-energy according to present natural science. The answer to Q1 is no. That is a plain fact. If anyone believes it does, bring in the scientific finding that demonstrates: a) Existence of 'consciousness' (as direct experience) b) This 'consciousness' can causally affect matter-energy This is not a question about our intuition regarding (a) and (b) but whether natural science can or has established (a) and (b) as scientific facts. I am stating that it hasn't and despite several explicit requests, there was nothing posted in this thread so far from the other side to show anything different. As to why even ask Q1 -- it has to do with question: Q2: Does formulating ID hypothesis with 'conscious agency' as the causal source of the design, as Discovery Institute (DI) and many here routinely do, disqualify such ID as a hypothesis of present natural science? If answer to Q1 is no, then answer to Q2 is yes. Namely, since according to present natural science consciousness cannot cause any effects on anything in matter-energy realm, then it certainly cannot cause some such effects on any specific subset of matter-energy realm, such cells or proteins. If within present natural science consciousness can't affect anything at all, then it certainly can't affect anything in particular either. Of course, the problem above can be fixed by reformulation of the DI's ID hypothesis via expansion into a chain of 3 dependent scientific hypotheses: a) consciousness exist b) consciousness exerts causal effects on matter-energy c) as special case of (b), consciousness has causally affected origin of life and its evolution (e.g. designed & built required complex molecules) This indeed is a perfectly valid scientific hypothesis, albeit a lot larger and much harder to demonstrate. Namely, if natural science could have demonstrated (a) and (b), it would have done that already. At present, no one has any clue how demonstrate (a) and (b). They have been open problems for thousands of years and may well remain like that for another few thousands. Hence, DI's ID formulation has sabotaged the ID hypothesis by gratuitously turning it into either: (i) philosophical-theological thesis that is outside of present natural science (i.e. if the (a) and (b) not included into it) or: (ii) much harder composite hypothesis (a) + (b) + (c), requiring among others a demonstration of presently insurmountable sub-conjectures (a) and (b). It is also clear that DI, which unfortunately seems to be dominated by philosophers, theologians and lawyers, is completely clueless as to why that their formulation (i) is not a hypothesis of natural science but a philosophical-theological thesis (DI never extended it into scientifically valid, but much harder, composite hypothesis (ii)). The most obvious suggestion for fixing (i) is to reformulate DI's ID hypothesis by removing 'conscious agency' out of it and replacing it with 'computational process' as the causal agency behind the design. Namely, 'computational process' is something that natural science knows to exist and knows that it can exert causal effects on matter-energy. Hence the insurmountable problems (a) and (b) become unnecessary for the valid scientific hypothesis. Therefore, with reformulated ID, call it ID2, the only hypothesis which needs to be demonstrated is that: ID2: the origin and evolution of life are results of a computational process. This is a valid scientific hypothesis and it is specific enough that natural science can work with it right away. First, by seeking to uncover this computational process (James Shapiro and Santa Fe Institute on Complexity Science have largely done this job -- the "computers" are "biochemical networks"), and second to reverse engineer and decompile the algorithms running on this distributed self-programming computer and find out how exactly it originated and evolved life. The above is the line of discussion that I was aiming at (and have in fact stated it few times already). Unfortunately, the folks debating the topic so far couldn't get beyond question Q1. They kept insisting that answer to Q1 is yes (i.e. that consciousness is causally effective part of the present natural science), while persistently refusing to provide any scientific paper that demonstrates the underlying hypotheses for the "yes" answer, the (a) and (b). So, that's where we're at now.nightlight
November 2, 2013
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Imagine suggesting that demontrating something to be a regularity is insufficient for knowledge. pfft. Are you trying to stay in the dark ages? :) cheers...Upright BiPed
November 2, 2013
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I admit upfront that I have not read this thread, but I commend GP for his consistency. Nightlight, there are things in nature that are measurable, and there are things in nature that are not measurable, but must be demonstrated instead. Both exists in reality. To propose that the latter are 'outside of science', or even worse, 'not real', does not comport with the documented history of science. Not only has natural science (in the course of investigation) relied upon the unmeasurable-yet-demonstrable, but has actively sought out those phenomena in order to advance our understanding. To suggest that those things (that can only be demonstrated to exist) must suddenly become measurable in order to carry any force in our understanding, is simply silly. Not only does that cross with the actual history of the sciences, but it demands that all things in the operation of the natural world must comply to the methodological demands of a certain segment of humanity - even if being measurable violates reality. Sorry, but your britches ain't that big.Upright BiPed
November 2, 2013
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It is a correlation between output of generators, which is physical event A, and statement of intention, which is physical event B (the sound waves of the statement). "Consciousness" was never detected or measured let alone shown to cause anything. No one knows how to do that (if you know how, let me know). They only detected sound of a statement, which all kinds of devices can produce. You simply got duped by the imaginative interpretations by the overly enthusiastic researchers. To help you avoid getting suckered into such nonsense again and again as you seem to be prone to, I would suggest you check this paper explaining the "hard problem of consciousness." If you give it few minutes of careful reading, you will understand why what those PSI guys claimed is a big load of bunk.nightlight
November 2, 2013
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NL, your original claim was:
"consciousness, has (no) causal effects on matter-energy"
I showed you an experiment, from Princeton University no less, showing that 'intentionality', which is an exclusive property of consciousness,,,
The Mind and Materialist Superstition - Six "conditions of mind" that are irreconcilable with materialism: Excerpt: Intentionality,,, Qualia,,, Persistence of Self-Identity,,, Restricted Access,,, Incorrigibility,,, Free Will,,, - Michael Egnor, professor of neurosurgery at SUNY, Stony Brook http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/11/the_mind_and_materialist_super.html
,,,(that intentionality) had a consistent 'anomalous' effect on matter-energy, specifically it had an effect on random number generators. Here is/are the results of the experiment(s) conducted over 12 years,,,
Correlations of Random Binary Sequences with Pre-Stated Operator Intention: A Review of a 12-Year Program Abstract: Strong correlations between output distribution means of a variety of random binary processes and pre-stated intentions of some 100 individual human operators have been established over a 12-year experimental program. More than 1000 experimental series, employing four different categories of random devices and several distinctive protocols, show comparable magnitudes of anomalous mean shifts from chance expectation, with similar distribution structures. Although the absolute effect sizes are quite small, of the order of 10–4 bits deviation per bit processed, over the huge databases accumulated the composite effect exceeds 7 ?( p approx.= 3.5 × 10 –13). These data display significant disparities between female and male operator performances, and consistent serial position effects in individual and collective results. Data generated by operators far removed from the machines and exerting their efforts at times other than those of machine operation show similar effect sizes and structural details to those of the local, on-time experiments. Most other secondary parameters tested are found to have little effect on the scale and character of the results, with one important exception: studies performed using fully deterministic pseudorandom sources, either hard-wired or algorithmic, yield null overall mean shifts, and display no other anomalous feature. http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/pdfs/1997-correlations-random-binary-sequences-12-year-review.pdf
That is an impressive result in my book and directly contradicts your claim that there is NO causal relation between consciousness, matter and energy. For you to try to play this off to some other unknown causes (which they took into consideration in the experiment(s)) is for you to be very disingenuous to the evidence at hand. The effect was shown to be consistent over several years against the null hypothesis of no conscious causation (which is your position). I find your refusal to deal honestly with the evidence at hand telling and join Gpuccio in saying:
You are obviously not interested in scientific reasoning.
Verse and Music:
Luke 16:31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'" Coldplay - Yellow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98o1bi7MIoQ
bornagain77
November 2, 2013
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What experiment? I am explaining to you why the experiments you brought up don't demonstrate what you got duped into believing they showed. They merely show correlations between physical events in 2 places A and B. So what? Countless physical events in different places correlate all the time. Where and how did they show that "consciousness" did anything there or that it was even present on the scene at all? What exactly was their "consciousness" detector and how does it work? Brand and model? Do you have a data sheet where it claims to measure 'consciousness'? What are the units for 'consciousness' that the alleged apparatus shows its results in? What is its error margin in percents? Or were you hypnotized while reading and can't remember any of it? You are welcome, if you saw the proof in those papers that I missed, to explain where it was hiding.nightlight
November 2, 2013
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No No NO NL, cite exact experiment please! If I wanted excuses I would talk to a six year old with his hand in a cookie jar! :)bornagain77
November 2, 2013
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@ba77 #44 -- there is nothing in any of those experiments that detects or measures "consciousness" quantity. They are merely observing correlations between physical events in places A and B. That's about as surprising as texting from place A to friend in place B, which causes correlated events in places A and B. While each person may describe what they were thinking or feeling during the exchange, that doesn't imply it was their thoughts or feelings that caused correlation between physical events at locations A and B. You would need to eliminate all possible known physical interaction, to barely reach the stage at which you have demonstrated that either a) unknown physical interaction is causing correlations OR b) thoughts are causing correlations. So even after that refinement of experiment (none of which was done in those experiments), you still end up with 2 conjectures, only one of which contains consciousness as causal agency. How would one go beyond that and exclude (a) is unclear and it may be impossible.nightlight
November 2, 2013
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NL, funny, they found consistent 'anomalous' evidence directly contradicting what you claimed, and you do not accept it. How did I know that you would do that?
Study suggests precognition may be possible - November 2010 Excerpt: A Cornell University scientist has demonstrated that psi anomalies, more commonly known as precognition, premonitions or extra-sensory perception (ESP), really do exist at a statistically significant level. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-precognition.html
:) Well anyways, instead of trying to 'explain away' the evidence, please present the EXACT experimental evidence that explains exactly why they got the results they got. i.e. In science, experiment results carry (far) more weight than conjecture/rationalizations. That's the beauty of science!bornagain77
November 2, 2013
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@ba77 #38
NL you keep claiming that consciousness has no causal role in reality and yet you were already shown this (and you ignored it):
Correlations of Random Binary Sequences with Pre-Stated Operator Intention: A Review of a 12-Year Program - 1997 http://www.princeton.edu/~pear.....review.pdf Scientific Evidence That Mind Effects Matter - Random Number Generators - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4198007
I have ran into those Princeton experiments several times before. They are merely conjecturing that 'consciousness' played causal role in the action of "noise" based "random number generators" but experiments are not designed to demonstrate (verify or falsify) such conjecture. Namely, those are unshielded devices which could be affected by electro-magnetic and cosmic radiation. Since human brain operation can both be affected by the same kinds of fields as well as generate EM fields, the mere correlation between devices and states of (some) human brains isn't overly surprising to require some non-physical explanation. To eliminate correlations due known physical field and particles, the random generators would have to be in a deep underground location (e.g. like neutrino detectors in old mines or underground caves) and operate on a local, isolated power source. Let me know when the experient with fully shielded generators shows excess correlations.nightlight
November 2, 2013
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@gpuccio #37
Your "arguments" are becoming even worse. Asking for a scientific paper that demonstrates the existence of consciousness and its ability to interact with matter is like asking for scientific papers that demonstrate that apples exist and that they fall on the ground occasionally. Science does not need papers to demonstrate that observable facts exist. Science is about explaining facts and their connections.
Thanks, this confirms that you are finally conceding that no scientific paper or finding exists that establishes a) existence of consciousness and b) its causal effects on matter-energy. Of course, if you cared to check any of the thousands of papers on the "hard problem of consciousness" as suggested earlier you could have known that fact all along. Also confirmed is my suspicion that you are utterly incapable of discerning between personal opinions/experiences and statements/facts of natural science. While that's not an overly uncommon affliction, it is somewhat puzzling that someone suffering from such a severe case would insist on debating the status of consciousness in natural science. Well, thanks for the effort, anyway. The challenges of trying to explain the issue to someone with the above affliciton, for whom such issue cannot exist, did help me clarify and express better some of my own thoughts on the matter.nightlight
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Well OKIE DOKIE, we have a clear difference of predictions (just how science should be done! :) ). I would wager heavy, but alas I don't gamble, and you will most likely deny the results as 'quantum poofery' anyway since they go against your deeply held, even 'religious', beliefs. I did not see a date for when they are scheduled to take the experiment up to the space station. Do you happen to know?bornagain77
November 2, 2013
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@ba77 #34
What specifically does your theory predict as a result for the following experiment?
Since Planckian networks operate through local interactions, the prediction is that local behaviors will be observed only i.e. no quantum magic/non-locality will happen (as it never does). The proposed experiment is merely a warmed over ancient beam-splitter experiment, with conventional photodetectors replaced by mechanical nano-devices (oscillators). The only way such beam splitter experiments yield 'quantum magic' claims is by cheating, mostly by deceiving passively-aggressively through omissions (by withholding of complete data to give room for imaginative interpretations), or less often via gross cheating as done in this fairly recent experiment. In the latter experiment they provided enough data about the instruments and their settings, so that the sleight of hand could be spotted upon careful reading. In that Physics Forum thread I explained the cheating technique which consisted of miscofiguring the critical coincidence circuit so that the detection window was well outside of the manufacturer's requirements for the circuit. As result, the grossly misconfigured coincidence circuit missed most of the simultaneous detections, producing illusion of near perfect (actually overly perfect, which is what tipped me off to look closer) particle-like exclusivity of the detector triggers (i.e. when one detector triggers, the other one at the opposite side of the beam splitter fails to trigger).nightlight
November 2, 2013
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NL, I still want to know you specific prediction for this experiment:
Showdown between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics: Physicists Eye Quantum-Gravity Interface -Oct. 31, 2013 Excerpt: Gravity curves space and time around massive objects. What happens when such objects are put in quantum superpositions, causing space-time to curve in two different ways?,,, Markus Aspelmeyer, a professor of physics at the University of Vienna, is equally optimistic. His group is developing three separate experiments at the quantum-gravity interface — two for the lab and one for an orbiting satellite.,, Many physicists expect quantum theory to prevail. They believe the ball on a spring should, in principle, be able to exist in two places at once, just as a photon can. The ball’s gravitational field should be able to interfere with itself in a quantum superposition, just as the photon’s electromagnetic field does. “I don’t see why these concepts of quantum theory that have proven to be right for the case of light should fail for the case of gravity,” Aspelmeyer said. But the incompatibility of general relativity and quantum mechanics itself suggests that gravity might behave differently. https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20131031-physicists-eye-quantum-gravity-interface/
My prediction is, since I hold consciousness to be foundation to reality, is that it will be found that the gravitational field will interfere with itself in a quantum superposition.bornagain77
November 2, 2013
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NL you keep claiming that consciousness has no causal role in reality and yet you were already shown this (and you ignored it):
Correlations of Random Binary Sequences with Pre-Stated Operator Intention: A Review of a 12-Year Program - 1997 http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/pdfs/1997-correlations-random-binary-sequences-12-year-review.pdf Scientific Evidence That Mind Effects Matter - Random Number Generators - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4198007
related notes:
Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research - Scientific Study of Consciousness-Related Physical Phenomena - publications http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/publications.html The Global Consciousness Project - Meaningful Correlations in Random Data http://teilhard.global-mind.org/
As well you were already shown that consciousness and free will are to be considered axioms (founding principles) to quantum mechanics:
What Does Quantum Physics Have to Do with Free Will? - By Antoine Suarez - July 22, 2013 Excerpt: What is more, recent experiments are bringing to light that the experimenter’s free will and consciousness should be considered axioms (founding principles) of standard quantum physics theory. So for instance, in experiments involving “entanglement” (the phenomenon Einstein called “spooky action at a distance”), to conclude that quantum correlations of two particles are nonlocal (i.e. cannot be explained by signals traveling at velocity less than or equal to the speed of light), it is crucial to assume that the experimenter can make free choices, and is not constrained in what orientation he/she sets the measuring devices. To understand these implications it is crucial to be aware that quantum physics is not only a description of the material and visible world around us, but also speaks about non-material influences coming from outside the space-time.,,, https://www.bigquestionsonline.com/content/what-does-quantum-physics-have-do-free-will Free will and nonlocality at detection: Basic principles of quantum physics - Antoine Suarez - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhMrrmlTXl4
In fact, the foundation of quantum mechanics within science is now so solid that researchers were able to bring forth this following proof from quantum entanglement experiments;
Can quantum theory be improved? - July 23, 2012 Excerpt: However, in the new paper, the physicists have experimentally demonstrated that there cannot exist any alternative theory that increases the predictive probability of quantum theory by more than 0.165, with the only assumption being that measurement (*conscious observation) parameters can be chosen independently (free choice, free will, assumption) of the other parameters of the theory.,,, ,, the experimental results provide the tightest constraints yet on alternatives to quantum theory. The findings imply that quantum theory is close to optimal in terms of its predictive power, even when the predictions are completely random. http://phys.org/news/2012-07-quantum-theory.html *What does the term "measurement" mean in quantum mechanics? "Measurement" or "observation" in a quantum mechanics context are really just other ways of saying that the observer is interacting with the quantum system and measuring the result in toto. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=597846
Now this is completely unheard of in science as far as I know. i.e. That a mathematical description of reality would advance to the point that one can actually perform a experiment showing that your current theory will not be exceeded in predictive power by another future theory is simply unprecedented in science and certainly deserves more recogniton than it has recieved thus far! And please note that free will and consciousness are axiomatic (the only assumption) to Quantum Theory in the experiment. Perhaps NL, you would like to overturn that particular experiment instead of calling everything you don't like in QM 'quantum poofery'? But the evidence against your position, the position that consciousness has no causal role in reality, goes much further than that (as impressive as that experiment is). General Relativity is found to be 'incomplete' as to providing a coherent explanation for the centrality we see for ourselves within the CMBR of the universe (i.e. Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation) yet quantum mechanics provides an adequate explanation for the centrality we witness for ourselves within the 'sphere' of the CMBR:
The Galileo Affair and Life/Consciousness true "Center of the Universe" Excerpt: But as compelling as it is to use the privileged planet principle, in conjunction with the centrality of the Earth in the 4-Dimensional (4D) space-time of General Relativity, to establish the centrality of the Earth in the universe, this method of establishing centrality for the earth falls short of explaining ‘true centrality’ in the universe and still does not fully explain exactly why the CMBR forms an ‘almost’ perfect sphere around the Earth. The primary reason why the higher dimensional 4D space-time, governing the expansion of this 3-Dimensional universe, is insufficient within itself to maintain 3D symmetry becomes clear if one tries to imagine radically different points of observation in the universe. Since the universe is shown to have only (approximately) 10^79 atoms to work with, once a person tries to imagine keeping perfect 3D symmetry, from radically different points of observation within the CMBR sphere, a person quickly finds that it is geometrically impossible to maintain such 3D symmetry of centrality within the CMBR sphere with finite 3D material particles to work with for radically different 3D points of ‘imagined observation’ in the universe. As well, fairly exhaustive examination of the General Relativity equations themselves, seem to, at least from as far as I can follow the math, mathematically prove the insufficiency of General Relativity to account for the ‘completeness’ of 4D space-time within the sphere of the CMBR from differing points of observation in the universe. [13] But if the 4D space-time of General Relativity is insufficient to explain ‘true 3D centrality’ in the universe, what else is since we certainly observe centrality for ourselves within the sphere of the CMBR? Quantum Mechanics gives us the reason why. ‘True centrality’ in the universe is achieved by ‘universal quantum wave collapse of photons’, to each point of ‘conscious observation’ in the universe, and is the only answer that has adequate sufficiency to explain ‘true 3D centrality’ that we witness for ourselves within the CMBR of the universe. As well, whereas higher math refuses to give General Relativity clearance as a complete description of reality, higher math has recently (June 2013) confirmed the confidence we can have in Quantum Mechanics as an accurate description of reality. [13a & 13b] Moreover because of advances in Quantum Mechanics, the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. [14] 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit
bornagain77
November 2, 2013
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nightlight: Your "arguments" are becoming even worse. Asking for a scientific paper that demonstrates the existence of consciousness and its ability to interact with matter is like asking for scientific papers that demonstrate that apples exist and that they fall on the ground occasionally. Science does not need papers to demonstrate that observable facts exist. Science is about explaining facts and their connections. Science is about establishing the connection between the fact of conscious representations (absolutely observable by all human beings) and the process of design and its outputs, the designed objects. You are obviously not interested in scientific reasoning. Your choice.gpuccio
November 2, 2013
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@Mung #32
Given your argument about robots and pictures, if someone draws a picture and I draw one just like it, wouldn't the inference be that I was programmed to do so just like e robot was programmed?... How does this rid us of consciousness as required for a causal explanation?
The idea of robot comparison was to illustrate that human-like actions, such as painting, design, construction, conversations,... do not intrinsically require any additional intelligence or powers. All such actions (any finite sequence of them) can be entirely accomplished by pure matter-matter interactions, as far as all aspects of those actions than can be objectively perceived. That is simply a direct counterexample to the assertion being made that performing such human-like actions necessarily implies or requires the accompanying inner experience (consciousness) to drive/control them. The counterexample demonstrates plainly that there is no such requirement or implication.
We can know who programmed the robot, but who programmed me?
Unlike robots, or conventional digital computers, the neural networks (networks with links that adapt to some punishments & rewards), such as human brain, cellular biochemical networks, Planck scale networks, are distributed self-programming computers as sketched in earlier post1 with followups in post2 and post3. As explained there, they are programmed by the interaction with their environment. In principle, one can view even digital computers as being programmed by the interaction with their environment (by the programmer sitting at the console of the computer and interacting with their keyboard and screen).nightlight
November 2, 2013
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@gpuccio #33
Present natural science has no clue whether consciousness can cause anything in the realm of matter-energy, let alone that it can do something as specific as come up with and make proteins. You may feel personally that it can do and it did exactly that, but all kinds of people feel all kinds of things, and so what.
This is wrong and arrogant. There is absolutely no doubt that consciousness can cause things, and in no way that is a question of "personal feel".
You are obviously grossly misreading what I wrote as the full quote of both sides above illustrates. I am obviously talking about the absence of findings in "natural science" (not in personal experience) that demonstrate any causal role, or even just mere existence, of the accompanying inner experience (consciousness). You keep repeating that this is false. Well, show then the scientific paper that establishes: a) existence of the inner experience (consciousness), then b) that this demonstrated entity, consciousness, has causal effects on matter-energy phenomena. Note regarding (a): establishing a statement as an acoustic or optical signal, declaring "I am conscious" is not a synonym for establishing existence of 'consciousness' since the identical acoustic-optical signals can be produced by countless devices. I have never seen such paper and I don't believe it exists. You seem to claim that such scientific finding does exist. So where is it? Show it here, don't just claim that "there is no doubt" as if you are a surgeon general talking about second hand smoke or global warming expert at UN or EPA. Show me the research, the methods and findings, independently replicated of course (since "there is no doubt" about it, reproducibility should be trivial). What is the journal and paper reference for the alleged finding? If you fail to produce it, it means you can't find it either and you are quietly conceding that such scientific finding does not exist, as I stated all along. Note that I also don't claim that present natural science is correct about it. The repeated use of attribute "present" (natural science) is meant to suggest that some future natural science will be able to include consciousness in the scientific models of reality. But presently, whether you like it or not, it simply doesn't have it. As to why I insist on "natural science" rather than being satisfied with personal experience level of demonstration, as all of you here seem to be -- the relevant question in UD forum is whether Discovery Institute's version of ID hypothesis, which attributes causal role to 'conscious agency' in the origin and evolution of life is a hypothesis of natural science. Since, despite numerous requests from me, we still haven't seen here a citation of any finding of natural science that establishes: (a) existence and (b) causal effect of consciousness on anything in the matter-energy realm, then DI's ID hypothesis is not a scientific hypothesis since it invokes entity and attributes a causal role to it that natural science has no clue about. Hence, as far as the present natural science is concerned, DI's ID could have equally invoked pink fluffy turtle in the sky as the causal agency that designed and built the proteins.nightlight
November 2, 2013
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nightlight, What specifically does your theory predict as a result for the following experiment? Showdown between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics: Physicists Eye Quantum-Gravity Interface -Oct. 31, 2013 Excerpt: Gravity curves space and time around massive objects. What happens when such objects are put in quantum superpositions, causing space-time to curve in two different ways?,,, Markus Aspelmeyer, a professor of physics at the University of Vienna, is equally optimistic. His group is developing three separate experiments at the quantum-gravity interface — two for the lab and one for an orbiting satellite.,, Many physicists expect quantum theory to prevail. They believe the ball on a spring should, in principle, be able to exist in two places at once, just as a photon can. The ball’s gravitational field should be able to interfere with itself in a quantum superposition, just as the photon’s electromagnetic field does. “I don’t see why these concepts of quantum theory that have proven to be right for the case of light should fail for the case of gravity,” Aspelmeyer said. But the incompatibility of general relativity and quantum mechanics itself suggests that gravity might behave differently. https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20131031-physicists-eye-quantum-gravity-interface/bornagain77
November 2, 2013
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nightlight: First of all, I thank you for clarifying in detail your thoughts. After reading your #29, I think I have no more uncertainties about what you believe. That is fine. What is not fine at all is that I can now state with certainty that I find your ideas truly uninteresting, inconsistent and somewhat irritating. Frankly, as you certainly are an intelligent person, I expected something better from you. I have no intention to go into an endless discussion, given the deep difference between our views. However, I think I owe you at least a few brief explanation of why I still disagree with almost all you say. 1) You seem to believe that you have a right to decide what is science and what is not, on the basis of I don't know which unwarranted authority, and that everybody should follow your personal views. The nature of science is not a scientific issue. It is a problem which can only be address in the context of the philosophy of science. IOWs, it is a philosophical problem, not a scientific one. And philosophical problems are by their same nature controversial. You, like many others who misunderstand epistemology, seem to thing that absolute categories about science do exists, and that they are exactly those you believe in. Well, I have bad news for you: many (including me) will disagree. 2) Your view of reality is essentially dogmatic. You feel at liberty to decode things without substantiating your opinions with shareable arguments. The following points will be good examples of that. 3) You state, without substantiating it, that consciousness has no role in science, and no casual power that can be investigated by science. That is utterly false. In your words:
Similarly, consciousness has been recognized for thousands of years, but so far no one knows how to make something out of it in natural science. As far as present science is concerned, it has no causal effects on anything.
And:
Present natural science has no clue whether consciousness can cause anything in the realm of matter-energy, let alone that it can do something as specific as come up with and make proteins. You may feel personally that it can do and it did exactly that, but all kinds of people feel all kinds of things, and so what.
This is wrong and arrogant. There is absolutely no doubt that consciousness can cause things, and in no way that is a question of "personal feel". First of all, nothing of what we know and do in science would be possible without consciousness. Therefore it is beyond confutation that consciousness is the cause of science. If that is not enough for you, I am a medical doctor, and I can ensure you that conscious representation are extremely important in medical science (or do you believe that medicine is not a science?). Let's take the example of physical pain. Physical pain is a conscious experience. As a conscious experience, it can both be caused by material causes and have material effects. We try to avoid pain in patients, because we believe that is one of the purposes of medical science, and also because the material effects of pain can be devastating. We try to quantitatively assess pain, and we have both questionaries and objective signs and symptoms scales to measure semi-quantitatively the subjective experience of pain and relate it to material causes and effects. Well, pain is a conscious experience. We should maybe ignore it, and follow your rules, just to be in line with your concept of "natural science". Moreover, there is no doubt that conscious representations are the cause of designed things. Your attempts at denying that are ridiculous at best. Let's take my example again. I ask you to visualize a blue rectangle (a conscious experience, shared by our common language about conscious experiences). Nobody in his own mind would have any doubt about what is happening. I am asking you to do one thing, and you comply. Then I ask you to draw what you have visualized. And you do that. How can you deny that the form in the drawing is, in this context, an instantiation of the form you visualized? This is not a question of personal feel. This is perfectly correct, empirical, scientific procedure. 4) You don't understand the concept of dFSCI and its role in the scientific reasoning of ID. Maybe you have never followed my posts here, but in my application of the concept of dFSCI I have always explicitly stated that to assess the presence of absence of dFSCI in an object, we need, among other things, to be sure that no explicitly known and detailed algorithm present in the system can be responsible for the observed output. The invocation of mythological possible algorithms that could some day be discovered has no consequence on the evaluation of dFSCI, because myth and wishful thinking are not science. Therefore, with my definition od dFSCI, Durston has certainly demonstrated that most protein families do exhibit dFSCI. Period. The association between the presence of dFSCI in an object and its origin from conscious design is, again, empirical. It is an inference by analogy, supported by the easy observation that all objects that exhibit dFSCI, and whose origin can be independently assessed, originate from design, without any exception. IOWs, the presence of dFSCI in an object is a marker of design origin with 100% specificity. This is science, and not vague philosophy. 5) You are essentially a dogmatic person, and I don't like dogma. The only reason why you deny ID, design detection, and its obvious consequences in understanding the biological world is your personal dogma that the inclusion of the concept of consciousness in a scientific reasoning prevents it from being scientific. That dogma, like all dogmas, is irrational, unsubstantiated, and supported only by your debatable personal authority, or by some other authority that you consider as valid. In science, philosophy and cognition I accept no authority and no dogma. Therefore, it is really unlikely that we may agree on anything. All that is made even more serious by the fact that you recognize the insufficiency of a science that does not take into account consciousness. That makes you even more guilty of a dogmatic attitude. Neo darwinists, at least, do believe in their RV + NS explanation, however absurd it may be, and try to detail it and defend it, at the best of their (rather confused) understanding. You, instead, while admitting the inconsistency of present so called scientific explanations, still refuse, for a dogmatic principle established by you alone, to take into consideration the only reasonable explanation available, that is ID. Even more irritatingly, you rely on vague perspectives of new postulates, whose only purpose seems to be to revive the limitations of materialism on some more extravagant and trendy level. Or on fairy tales such as imaginary algorithms running automatically at Planck scale. Forgetting, however, that Dembski's UPB takes into account even the Planck scale for a random search of CSI. But you probably thing that your Plank scale algorithms are very intelligent, and can find things very efficiently. What are you, then? A new sophisticated form of theistic evolutionist? The simple truth is that design can be scientifically detected with 100% specificity using dFSCI or any equivalent concept. And that a scientifically safe and reliable design inference can be made for most biological objects, certainly for most protein families. This is science at its best, whatever you may say.gpuccio
November 2, 2013
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nightlight:
As far as present science is concerned, it has no causal effects on anything. While you may feel it does cause you to draw a picture, a robot can be programmed to draw identical picture, and with robot all that it does can be explained via matter-matter interactions. There is nothing in the present science that suggests that anything beyond such matter-matter interaction is needed for you to draw your version of the picture either.
Given your argument about robots and pictures, if someone draws a picture and I draw one just like it, wouldn't the inference be that I was programmed to do so just like e robot was programmed? We can know who programmed the robot, but who programmed me? How does this rid us of consciousness as required for a causal explanation? I wonder if you would allow yourself to be defended in court by a robot lawyer before a robot judge and jury.Mung
November 2, 2013
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@ba77 #30
And yet your ad hoc imaginary computer in the sky, which you have substituted for God, can compute it? And in your deluded imagination this is science?
You are making things up as you go it seems. I never located any computer in the sky (I think you confused it with your deities which supposedly live in heavens). Computational interpretation of physical laws is also not my idea. And FYI it is a legitimate science which is done mostly by physicists, but also by computer scientists, mathematicians, biochemists and others (often under labels "Complexity Science" and "Digital Physics"). The specific variant I described, the Planck scale networks, are not my idea either. The basic idea and some of its variants have been explored by physicists for pregeometry at least since 1971 ("spin networks" by Roger Penrose). I am merely extending the notion from the networks which compute only physical space-time and laws of matter-energy, to networks which run more complex algorithms extending to the fine tuning of physical laws, origin and evolution of life. My variant is mostly inspired by Wolfram's NKS approach to natural science. The Planck scale networks, which are the distrinbuted self-programming computer in question, are not outside, let alone above, but rather they work from within matter-energy, computing behavior of matter-energy at each point of space-time. Hence, they are more like a driver controlling the car from inside, not like a crane lifting and moving the car from outside. The latter method (of control via external boundary conditions) would be how your deities operate, being Roman knockoffs of Hebrew knockoffs of Persian and Egyptian knockoffs of the stone age sky gods. To help you avoid further misquotes and misinterpretations, the hyperlinked TOC for the main posts on Planckian networks is in the second half of this post. This post introduced the basic idea, followed by couple dozen posts explaining various aspects of the concept to posters here, including several responses to your requests for clarification. Hence, your gross misstatement above about it is a bit puzzling (hopefully it's due to a memory lapse or general ignorance rather than malice).nightlight
November 2, 2013
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NL you state,
“nothing can compute it” is also a statement of personal faith (or of what you could and could not conceive), not a scientific fact.
And yet your ad hoc imaginary computer in the sky, which you have substituted for God, can compute it? And in your deluded imagination this is science? My oh My the irony is rich! Is God No Better Than A Special Computer? – William Lane Craig – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xinwkb_b4k4 Digital Physics Argument for God’s Existence – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Xsp4FRgas Digital Physics Argument Premise 1: Simulations can only exist is a computer or a mind. Premise 2: The universe is a simulation. Premise 3: A simulation on a computer still must be simulated in a mind. Premise 4: Therefore, the universe is a simulation in a mind (2,3). Premise 5: This mind is what we call God. Conclusion: Therefore, God exists. i.e. Just because you prefer imaginary computers in the sky to God NL does not make it more 'natural' than God nor does it come closer to being science? In fact it a prime example of unrestrained imagination driving science instead of being constrained by it!bornagain77
November 2, 2013
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