Does Good come from God II – Harris vs Lane

_{DLH
April 8, 2011

Atheism, Creationism, Design inference, Ethics, Evolutionary psychology, Intelligent Design, Neuroscience, Philosophy, Psychology, Religion, Science

2}_{Categories
Atheism
Creationism
Design inference
Ethics
Evolutionary psychology
Intelligent Design
Neuroscience
Philosophy
Psychology
Religion
Science}

Part 9 of 9 – Harris vs Craig – Does Good Come From God
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Apologetics 315 has posted the audio link the Full Debate MP3 Audio here (120 min)
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I found the debate a fascinating test of technical debating skills vs red herrings and emotional appeals. (PS please post links to transcripts when available.)

This debate provides an interesting framework within which to examine the ID related question:
Does Information come from an Intelligent Agent?

Harris claimed that the axioms of science are accepted and obvious to everyone and provide the basis for proving there is no god. However, atheists commonly presuppose naturalistic materialism.
How can one scientifically examine if an intelligent agent exists or is causative, if one a priori excludes intelligent agents from possible causes?

I posit that in testing for an intelligent cause, one must presuppose:

1) Intelligent agents exist. (e.g. humans)
2) Intelligent agents can influence nature. (e.g. this post)
3) Some intelligent intervention can be detected. (e.g., forensics)
4) An intelligent agent may be a cause for an observed phenomena.

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April 11 See JonnyB’s follow on post:

Sam Harris Delivers Riveting Oration Championing Deism

Comments

Bruce David, You've made specific pronouncements about the scriptures themselves: "Oh, and by the way, those books that were collected into the New Testament contradict each other." #39 "I find Conversations with God and books like Seth Speaks far more compelling than the Bible." #38 "Jesus may have been resurrected. However, the “historical evidence” is entirely contained within the New Testament, which for reasons I laid out in #25, simply cannot be trusted as accurate unless one performs an act of faith that it is." #29 "Regarding using Jesus as one’s source of truth, I have been doing some research since we last conversed, and I have come to the conclusion that we simply cannot know what Jesus said or did with any certainty. There is no historical record of Jesus life dating from the first century after his death other than the New Testament." # 25 Therefore, since your contention is with the writings of the Bible, to the Bible we must go.CannuckianYankee_{April 11, 2011
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To all of you: Why do you keep quoting scripture to me as evidence for this or that belief that you have when I have already given you excellent reasons why scripture simply cannot be trusted to give us accurate information regarding what Jesus did and said, UNLESS you already accept ON FAITH, which I do not, that scripture does so? (#25) DLH said, "Are you seeking to know the truth? Or seeking every excuse to avoid the truth?" I think this pretty well summarizes the attitude of the lot of you: you know what the truth is and the rest of us (the majority of human beings on the planet) do not. Let me tell you something about myself. I have been a seeker of truth for most of my adult life, and I am now nearly 70 years old. I have had several spiritual teachers, including Reshad Feild, a Sufi master, for 15 years. I have studied a number of spiritual traditions and many, many spiritual sources, some of them quite deeply, and frankly, I find the arrogance with which you assume that your own particular spiritual source is the only one that contains truth to be myopic and spiritually provincial, to put it mildly. No spiritual tradition has a lock on the truth, and every spiritual tradition has at least some insight into the truth. One has only to read the poetry of Hafiz or Rumi, Autobiography of a Yogi by Yogananda, the Tao Te Ching, anything by Ibn al 'Arabi, or any of hundreds of other sources to know that this is true. I find the very idea that God would be so unfair, so cruel, so UNLOVING as to set the world up the way conservative Christianity has it (namely, that only those who decide to accept Jesus as their savior will avoid spending eternity in Hell) an abomination, and such a distortion of God's unconditional love as to make it unrecognizable. What are you all THINKING?! The human race is in the process of destroying itself at this moment in history. A large part of the reason why is those factions of each tradition--Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism--that believe that theirs is the only way to God or the truth. The exclusivist religions are the problem, not the solution. When we can all say, "Ours is not the only way, ours is just another way," a huge step towards peace and understanding among all people will have been achieved. And such a statement is the actual truth. Just open your eyes and look around.Bruce David_{April 10, 2011
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Bruce David, I was just talking to a friend about your quote here; 'You assume that a fulfilled prophesy is the only criterion of truth of a source of revelation. I don’t.' after I had pointed this prophecy out here; The Precisely Fulfilled Prophecy Of Israel Becoming A Nation In 1948 – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041241 Bible Prophecy Fulfilled – Israel 1948 – article Excerpt: As such, we can know for certain that the Bible, in one of the most remarkable prophecies in history, accurately foresaw the year of Israel’s restoration as an independent nation some two thousand five hundred years before the event occurred. http://ezinearticles.com/?Bible-Prophecy-Fulfilled---Israel-1948&id=449317 To top it off Jesus predicted this; Luke 21:24 “They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” Now Bruce, I don't take prophecy to be the 'only criterion of truth of a source of revelation', and could bore you to tears with many other lines of evidence I use for establishing an 'unimpeachable' foundation in Christianity, but BRUCE??? This is a prophecy that was predicted 2500 years in advance to the exact year, and even to the exact time of year. To top that off, This prophecy was fulfilled as a direct result of the aftermath of World War II , which has effected the entire world!!!! That you could so nonchalantly say 'well I don't use prophecy as the only criterion for truth' in the face of such a jaw dropping prophecy, is to completely miss the point!!! I mean come on Bruce give me a break! The man I was talking to, when I had mentioned that you denied the prophecy had any particular relevance for you, shook his head in disbelief. and I shake my head in disbelief too;,,,bornagain77_{April 10, 2011
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A little OT: I wanted to address the issue of Jesus prophecies concerning his second coming and the destruction of Jerusalem. They are clearly separate issues in Jesus' own words: 1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b] 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. The Day and Hour Unknown 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. [Matthew 24:1-44 NIV] http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024&version=NIV There are several prophecies involved here. The first is the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, which was fulfilled in 70AD by the Romans. This bit of information confused the disciples, so they asked for clarification on two separate issues: “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” So they are asking 1) when the destruction of Jerusalem will happen, and 2) what are the signs of Jesus' second coming and the end of the age? I think it's clear that the disciples are the one's linking the destruction of Jerusalem with the 2nd coming, and Jesus clarifies this for them by pointing out that certain signs will appear before that time, which will signal the 2nd coming, and that the only thing they need to be concerned with is that they not be deceived by false Messiahs and false prophets who are in fact attempting to herald the 2nd coming prematurely, and that they keep watch and pray. Why? Because nobody knows the day or the hour. It remains a mystery. So Jesus made several prophecies here which have already been fulfilled: The destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. This event is clearly only the beginning of a period Dispensational and Reform theologians have called "The Church Age," which continues to this day. The arise of false prophets and false Messiahs. His own fame throughout the world, with certain false actions being done in his name. And he made several prophecies, which have not as yet been fulfilled, concerning his second coming and the end of the age. So to say that Jesus' prophecies concerning the end times were not fulfilled when he said they would be is to misread exactly what he said. He gave no time for his second coming or for that matter, for the destruction of the temple. None of his prophecies have a time limit to them. Some were fulfilled while others have not as yet been fulfilled. Allowing thousands of years for their fulfillment is therefore logical given the nature of his discourse - as not specifying dates; only particular events and particular outcomes.CannuckianYankee_{April 10, 2011
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Bruce David you state; 'what we perceive as evil from our limited perspective while we are in the physical clearly will not be perceived as evil from the larger perspective, either by us when we are able to see from that larger perspective or by God, who always sees from the largest perspective there is.' So in God's eyes evil does not really exist??? Furthermore, Jesus death and resurrection as a atoning sacrifice for all the sins of mankind was totally pointless towards our justification in God's eyes??? How many scriptures do you have to mangle, and ignore, to justify that belief Bruce??? Bruce in your fantasy-land afterlife, does Hitler get as much of an 'attaboy' from God as Mother Teresa does since he contributed so much to enabling that,,, 'we can EXPERIENCE ourselves as the opposite of evil.'bornagain77_{April 10, 2011
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---Bruce David: “Furthermore, the gospels contradict each other in many ways. For example, Matthew has Mary and Joseph living in Bethlehem, where Jesus is born and then fleeing to Egypt to escape Herod’s orders to kill all the babies under the age of 2 are worried about what Herod’s son, the new king, might do. ---Luke’s version has them traveling to Bethlehem for the census (of which there is no historical record, by the way), where Jesus is born in a stable. Thirty three days later, they return to Nazareth.” There is no contradiction at all. Luke’s report begins earlier and provides critical information about events that preceded Jesus’ birth. Matthew gives us the relevant information about the escape to Egypt after the birth. While there is much in common among them, each of the four Gospels provides information not contained in the other three. That is why there are four of them. Each report is an independent narrative, which makes the total effort more credible, not less. In fact, both the authors you allude to are only reporting some of the events, though they each write about key elements—(Jesus was born in Bethlehem and later went to Nazareth)--- and each selects a portion of the total history to make a specific point. Luke emphasizes historical elements in which Jesus is accepted; Matthew emphasizes historical accounts in which Jesus is rejected. Each of your arguments can be taken apart with equal ease. There is no reason to go through them all. Your sources, whoever they are, are unreliable. More to the point, your record of avoiding any and all of the relevant evidence on historical Christianity is becoming legendary.StephenB_{April 10, 2011
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Bruce David Are you seeking to know the truth? Or seeking every excuse to avoid the truth? Mark 9:1 “And He used to say to them, “This is the truth I tell you - there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste of death until they shall see the Kingdom of God coming with power.” William Barclay writes: “What worries some people is that they take this as a reference to the Second Coming; . . But this is not a reference to the Second Coming at all. . . . Scarcely more than 30 years later, Christianity had swept through Asia Minor. Antioch had become a great Christian Church. It had penetrated Egypt. The Christians were strong in Alexandria. It had crossed the sea and had come to Rome and swept through Greece. Christianity had spread like an unstoppable tide throughout the world. It was literally and astonishingly true that in the life time of many there, against all expectations, Christianity had come with power. So far from being mistaken Jesus was absolutely right.” p 214 The Gospel of Mark, ISBN 0-664-20184-9 Mark 13:30 “Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place.” Barclay continues: “ . . . for this sentence does not refer to the Second Coming. It could not when the next sentence says He does not know when that day will be. It refers to Jesus’ prophecies about the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple which were abundantly fulfilled.” p 336. Are you brave enough to examine the facts and learn the truth? Or are you using any and every excuse to avoid facing the facts and hiding from the consequences? Have you considered the implications of any of Jesus' prophecies that were obviously fulfilled? Will you pluck up enough courage to read Simon Greenleaf and address the best rules of evidence in evaluating the facts?DLH_{April 10, 2011
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Bornagain: "To clearly illustrate the absurdity you will put up with,,, Bruce David please tell me does evil exist????" If God created the physical universe for a purpose, and if the existence of what we call evil within that universe is essential for the fulfillment of that purpose, then what we perceive as evil from our limited perspective while we are in the physical clearly will not be perceived as evil from the larger perspective, either by us when we are able to see from that larger perspective or by God, who always sees from the largest perspective there is. The purpose of our experience of evil, as I have explained many times, is so that by comparison, we can EXPERIENCE ourselves as the opposite of evil. This experiencing of our magnificence in all aspects of that magnificence is the purpose of physical reality, and it is delicious, awe-filled, joyous, and loving. So you see, denying the existence of evil is "absurd" only if you already are certain that evil exists. It's a circular argument.Bruce David_{April 10, 2011
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To clearly illustrate the absurdity you will put up with,,, Bruce David please tell me does evil exist????bornagain77_{April 10, 2011
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Bruce David, I stand behind the interpretation of scriptures I have given, for the interpretations I gave, concerning Jesus's teaching on the end times, takes the entire passage, as well as the surrounding circumstances in which they were said by Jesus, into context,,, whereas you are merely pulling scriptures out of context, without further scrutiny, just so as to justify your belief in pantheism. As with the other evidence I have presented, and as StephenB stated earlier, it is clear that you will ignore everything contrary to your preconceived bias! In my opinion, in matters of religion you seem to be no better than neo-Darwinists who refuse to acknowledge the overwhelming evidence for design simply because they don't want to believe in God no matter what the evidence says.bornagain77_{April 10, 2011
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Bornagain: All you have shown is that any "prophesy" in scripture is open to multiple interpretations. This is also true of the prophesies in the Old Testament which have been interpreted to portend the coming of Jesus. It's all in the interpretation, and if you're clever, you can always work it around so it says what you want it to. To me the passage in Mark 13:30 is unequivocal. Jesus has just descirbed events which will come: the sun and the moon will grow dark, the stars will fall down from heaven, and the Son of Man coming in clouds in great power and glory will be seen. Then, using the fig tree as a metaphor, he says that just as when the fig tree puts forth its leaves you know that summer is near, when you see the things he has just described you will know that he is near, at the very gates. Finally, he says that "this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place." What could be clearer? He is saying that the then current generation (his generation) will see what he has just described. And, of course, this did not happen. You clearly want very much for it to be the case that (your interpretation of) Christianity is unequivocally true. But guess what? God didn't set it up that way. God set it up so that there is reason to believe in each of the world's religions and also reason not to believe. My view is that this is deliberate, so that we ultimately understand that the truth is within each of us, and that part of our task here on earth is to find that truth within ourselves.Bruce David_{April 10, 2011
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Bruce David as to; Mark 9 1 And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” And yet right after that we have; The Transfiguration 2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus. Though that would surely convince me that I had seen the kingdom of God come with power, they also personally witnessed 'that the kingdom of God has come with power.' in the resurrection in which Jesus said to his disciples after His resurrection; Matthew 28:18 'Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.' Thus with the transfiguration, and especially with Christ's victory over sin and death, I would say most certainly that the disciples did,,, 'not taste death before they see (saw) that the kingdom of God has (had) come with power.”'bornagain77_{April 10, 2011
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OK Bruce David let's take a closer look at the Jesus' teaching concerning the end times;; The Olivet Discourse Jesus saved His fullest discussion of things to come until shortly before He died. This discussion, known as the Olivet Discourse, took place on the Tuesday evening between Palm Sunday and the day of the Crucifixion. Matthew's record of Jesus' words on this occasion requires two long chapters. Rather than reprinting the discourse in full, we will ask the reader to peruse it in his own Bible. The discourse arose out of a discussion earlier in the day, between Jesus and His disciples. 1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Matthew 24:1-3 The disciples had offered to show Jesus the magnificent buildings of the Temple (v. 1). Jesus had replied that not one stone would be left upon another (v. 2). Sometime later, as He sat on the Mount of Olives, perhaps gazing across the valley at the beautiful scene of the city spread out before Him, certain disciples—Mark informs us that it was Peter, James, John, and Andrew (Mark 13:3)—came to Him privately and sought further information (v. 3). They asked, when will these things (the destruction of the Temple) be, and what will be the sign of His coming and the end of the world (v. 3). They evidently thought that all these developments would be concurrent. Jesus' answer is an ingenious mixture of fact and symbol. In the first section of the discourse (Matt. 24:4-31), He gives a straightforward, literal account of events during the time of the end. In the middle section (Matt. 24:37 to 25:30) He presents a series of parables dealing with events attending the rapture of believers during this period, and in the last section (Matt. 25:31-46) He returns to a narrative style, describing an event just after the close of the age: the Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats. In response to the disciples' original questions, He inserts a direct answer between the first and middle sections. 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matthew 24:32-36 Here, He says four things. An event will be signaled as imminent by the budding of the fig tree (v. 32-33). A generation shall not pass before all these things are fulfilled (v. 34). We can be sure that Jesus will return, as He promised (v. 35). But no one can know exactly when Jesus will return (v. 36). To make sense of these answers, we must understand that the disciples had, no doubt unwittingly, presented Christ with two distinct questions. The first question was, "When shall these things be?" The disciples meant, "When will the Temple be destroyed?" Their second question was, "What shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world?" "Coming" corresponds to the Greek word parousia ("presence"), a technical term referring to the glorious presence that Jesus will manifest at His coming. In Matthew 24:27, Jesus uses the term with reference to His coming at the end of the Tribulation. In Greek, "end of the world" is sunteleias tou aionos, which means simply "completion of the age." The disciples wanted to know when Jesus would come and set up His kingdom. The answers to both questions lie hidden in Jesus' riddling oracle, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. This generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled" (vv. 32-34). By "generation," He evidently meant the generation that starts with the leafing out of the fig tree. With reference to the first question, the expression "these things" (v. 34) refers to the destruction of the Temple, an event that the disciples also called "these things" (v. 3), and the fig tree is the actual fig tree that Jesus found and cursed on Monday of Passion Week (Mark 11:11-14, 19-21). The disciples saw this tree putting forth leaves in A.D. 33, and the Temple was destroyed in A.D. 70, less than a generation later. Jesus' prediction that the Temple would be destroyed less than a generation after the disciples saw the budding of the fig tree was therefore fulfilled. With reference to the second question of the disciples, "these things" (v. 34) are the events He has enumerated in the preceding verses (in vv. 4-31), and the fig tree must be understood figuratively. The Fig Tree The question of great moment, therefore, is what the fig tree represents. Many commentators throughout church history have agreed that it represents the nation of Israel. In this symbolism Jesus is alluding to a vision of Jeremiah. 1 The LORD shewed me, and, behold, two baskets of figs were set before the temple of the LORD, after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon. 2 One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad. 3 Then said the LORD unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil. 4 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 5 Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good. 6 For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up. 7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart. 8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the LORD, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt: 9 And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them. 10 And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers. Jeremiah 24:1-10 The prophet saw the people of Israel as two groups of figs, one good, the other bad. The Lord told him that the good figs, representing the godly portion of the nation, would someday be planted like a fig tree, never to be rooted up. The same imagery occurs more than once during Jesus' ministry. For example, He uttered the following parable about a year before His death. 6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. 7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? 8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: 9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. Luke 13:6-9 The standard interpretation is that the owner is the Father, the keeper is Christ, and tree is Israel. If this interpretation is correct, the meaning of the parable is transparent. Jesus' ministry has gone on for three years without any fruit and the Father is ready to set Israel aside, but the Son pleads for the nation, asking that it be cultivated another year and given another chance. But notice Jesus' view of the fig tree a year later, after the year of prolonged opportunity had passed by. 11 And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve. 12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: 13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. 14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. 15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; 16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. 17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves. 18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine. 19 And when even was come, he went out of the city. 20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. 21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away. Mark 11:11-21 Why did Jesus curse the fig tree—a mere tree whose only fault was that it had not yet borne fruit? The incident is obviously symbolic. The day before the cursing of the tree was Palm Sunday, the day of Jesus' Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem, when He presented Himself to the people and their leaders as the Messiah, in fulfillment of Zechariah 9:9. The response of the nation was divided. Although some individuals accepted Him, the nation as a whole rejected Him. In particular, the elders of the people rejected and severely opposed Him (Matt. 21:15). Therefore, in His justice and holiness, God rejected the Jewish nation. Subsequently, less than forty years later, in A.D. 70, God judged the Jews by destroying their city and scattering them throughout the civilized world. Now it should be perfectly clear why Jesus cursed the fig tree on the morning after His triumphal entry. The two incidents are linked together. The cursing of the tree was a picture of the judgment that would soon fall on Israel because Israel had rejected their Messiah. Now it should also be perfectly clear what the parable of the fig tree in the Olivet Discourse means. As the disciples were walking into the city on Tuesday morning after Palm Sunday, they noticed that the tree which Jesus had cursed the day before had withered and dried up. Later, on Tuesday evening, when the memory of the withered fig tree was still fresh in their minds, Jesus spoke the parable in question. He said that when the church sees the fig tree leafing out again, it will know that "it is . . . at the doors." The Greek for "it is" can also be translated "he is." In prophecy, "door" is often a symbol for the passageway between heaven and earth (Rev. 4:1). What the parable means, therefore, is that when the nation of Israel revives after its coming disintegration and death in A.D. 70, the return of Christ will be imminent. http://www.themoorings.org/prophecy/Israel/Israel1.html This also may be of interest to you: Even Sir Isaac Newton, who is considered one of the greatest, if not the greatest, scientist who has ever lived, was a avid student of Bible prophecy: Sir Isaac Newton's Prediction For The Return Of Christ - Sid Roth video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041154 "Prophetic Perspectives, 2008-2015" - Jim Bramlett Excerpt: For years I have been intrigued with Newton's interpretation of Daniel 9:25 and the 62 weeks and 7 weeks (62 X 7 = 434 years, and 7 X 7 = 49 years), counted "from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem." In his commentary on Daniel, a copy of which I have, Newton wrote that the interpretation of those 69 weeks is usually incorrect, violating the Hebrew language. He said the two numbers should not be added together as most scholars do, but the 434 years refer to Messiah's first coming (which he demonstrated), and the 49 years refer to His second coming, after Israel is reestablished, an idea unheard of 300 years ago but happening in our generation The start date for counting has been controversial. Many thought the 49-year-count would be the date of Israel's rebirth on May 14, 1948, but, alas, that did not work out. Other dates were tried unsuccessfully. But what if the count begins on one of the two most historical dates in Jewish history, the date in the miraculous Six-Day War when Israel captured Jerusalem and the Temple Mount: June 7, 1967? Assume the 49-year count (49 Jewish years X 360 days = 17,640 days), does start on June 7, 1967. Using a date-counter Web site at http://www.timeanddate.com/date/duration.html we learn that the 17,640-day count takes us exactly to September 23, 2015. September 23, 2015 is the Day of Atonement! What are the odds against that? Many have believed that the Second Coming will be on the Day of Atonement. If he knew this, old Isaac Newton would be doing cartwheels and back flips right now. http://www.prophecyforum.com/bramlett/prophetic_perspectives.html The following scripture, which Jesus Himself spoke, gives significant weight to the idea that we should start our count of 17,640 days from the time Jerusalem came back into the hands of the Hebrews instead of counting the days from when Israel became a nation. Luke 21:24 "They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." This following videos give 'astronomical' weight to the preceding prediction by Sir Isaac Newton of how the 'days of Daniel' are to be counted and is indeed very sobering: Mark Biltz Talks About The Return Of Christ On Sid Roth - Solar & Lunar Eclipses - 2014 - 2015 - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4056071bornagain77_{April 10, 2011
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Clive Hayden: I apologize for misspelling your name earlier. You said, "The books do not contradict themselves, and besides, you’d have to have faith in them–that they were actually written for starters, and that they were about something in particular, and whether there was any actual events that they either do or do not conform to, to even say that there are contradictions that would have any meaning. All of this is taken on faith, as with any historical book. You have faith in lots of aspects even to claim any meaningful idea, even contradictions, to the texts of scripture." With all due respect, the books do contradict themselves. I have described only three of many such contradictions in post #25. And yes, I do have faith that there were books written, which have been copied by scribes through the centuries and have eventually come down to us in the form in which we now have them. What I don't have faith in is the proposition that what we now have is a true account of Jesus' life and teachings. As I say, I have no problem with you or anyone else having such a faith, but I still maintain that such a faith to be honest must somehow confront and reconcile the contradictions that exist between and among the various books of the New Testament.Bruce David_{April 10, 2011
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Bornagain: "For crying out loud Bruce David, ... can’t you see your blatant bias in all this???" Oh, I see, and you are completely objective, are you?Bruce David_{April 10, 2011
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Bornagain: The prophesy to which I refer is in Mark: "Truly I tell you, some of those standing here will not taste death before they see the Kingdom of God come into power" (Mark 9:1) Later, after describing the upheavals that will accompany the end of the age, he says. "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place." (Mark 13:30) "As well I find it very interesting (strange?) that you have truth defined in such a way as to make you final arbiter of truth no matter what evidence is presented!!!" We are each one of us of necessity the final arbiter of truth FOR OURSELVES. There is no escaping this. We must each decide what and whom to believe. There is no outside authority that can do that for us, for the simple reason that there are innumerable such "authorities" all claiming their own legitimacy, and each of us must make the choices that lead us to our own assessment of the truth.Bruce David_{April 10, 2011
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Bruce David; 'How do we know who is right?' Because my studies are of people who have actually, physically, died!!! And yours are merely 'hypnotherapy'. For crying out loud Bruce David, imparting 'suggestions' to a mind is the very heart of the 'hypnotherapy' practice. Can't you see your blatant bias in all this???bornagain77_{April 10, 2011
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Bornagain: Response to #43 and others of similar ilk: Read Journey of Souls and Destiny of Souls by Michael Newton. He is a hypnotherapist who developed a technique for regression that took people back to prior lives. It was so powerful, however, that he found some of his clients remembering going through their death in their last life and into their existence between lives. He refined this technique and was able to regress over 1000 people into remembering between life existence. What he found turned him from his atheism into a believer in a spiritual reality that included reincarnation. Mainly, it was the consistency of the reports he got from his clients that did it for him, given that these men and women did not know each other and had no knowledge of each other's sessions. The books he subsequently wrote (cited above) recount over 100 of these case histories and collectively give us a picture of what "between life" life is like. So you see, I have my own evidence that contradicts yours. How do we know who is right? One has to choose what to believe. It's as simple as that. Another interesting source of information about what it's like between lives is Seth, the entity channeled by Jane Roberts. According to Seth, our beliefs are very strong causes of what we actually experience, even after we die. So if we believe that we are going to Hell, we will actually experience that (but only temporarily, not for eternity). This may be an explanation of those experiences in your links.Bruce David_{April 10, 2011
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This is just plain blind; 'Furthermore, the prophesies you cite are in the Old Testament, which by rights should make you a Jew, not a Christian,' The Isaiah 53 prophecy was about Jesus!!!!! Furthermore Jesus correctly predicted this: Luke 21-24 'and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.' Do you really want me to look up the supposed discretion of prophecy you cited for you, or do you even care to be 'truthful' and search the matter out for yourself??? ,,, As well I find it very interesting (strange?) that you have truth defined in such a way as to make you final arbiter of truth no matter what evidence is presented!!!bornagain77_{April 10, 2011
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Bruce David, call me arrogant if you want, but I'm doing my best to be fair with the evidence, and kind towards you, especially since you clearly are in such grave error in your pantheism that very well 'could have' consequences you cannot even imagine right now! Why do you refuse to address prophecy??? Is it or is it not a sure mark of the 'supernatural'??? Does it not concern you in the least to be so biased as to not require even a modicum of outside verification of your pantheistic book; Conversations with god???bornagain77_{April 10, 2011
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Bornagain: "Merely show me the prophetic scriptures of any pantheistic book that accurately predicted the future thousands of years in advance. I would then at least admit that you are not completely misguided in your attack on Christianity and the Bible." You assume that a fulfilled prophesy is the only criterion of truth of a source of revelation. I don't. Furthermore, the prophesies you cite are in the Old Testament, which by rights should make you a Jew, not a Christian, since the prophesy that Jesus himself makes in the New Testament (that the Kingdom of God would be realized on earth in his apostles' lifetimes) was NOT fulfilled. I do not see my words as an "attack on Christianity and the Bible" either. I see them as merely pointing out the difficulties in an unexamined assumption that the Bible gives us an accurate record of Jesus' life and death. My purpose is to show that an objective look at the actual facts implies that Christian belief is a choice to have faith rather than a recognition of objective truth. This purpose is born out of a reaction to posters like you and StephenB who in your arrogance assume that you know the truth and that the rest of us, who are moved by other sources of revelation that we regard as valid, are benighted fools.Bruce David_{April 10, 2011
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Bruce, The books do not contradict themselves, and besides, you'd have to have faith in them--that they were actually written for starters, and that they were about something in particular, and whether there was any actual events that they either do or do not conform to, to even say that there are contradictions that would have any meaning. All of this is taken on faith, as with any historical book. You have faith in lots of aspects even to claim any meaningful idea, even contradictions, to the texts of scripture.Clive Hayden_{April 10, 2011
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Bruce David: The terrible, terrible lake of fire Athet Pyan Shinthaw Paulu's story: I learned later that I actually died for three days. My body decayed and stunk of death, and my heart stopped beating. My body was prepared for cremation and was put through traditional Buddhist purification rites. The king of hell told me to look into the lake of fire. I looked and I saw the saffron colored robes that Buddhist monks wear in Myanmar. I looked closer and saw the shaven head of a man. When I looked at the man's face I saw it was U Zadila Kyar Ni Kan Sayadaw [the famous monk who had died in a car accident in 1983]. I asked the king of hell why my former leader was confined to this lake of torment. I said, "Why is he in this lake of fire? He was a very good teacher. He even had a teaching tape called 'Are You a Man or a Dog?' which had helped thousands of people understand that their worth as humans is far greater than the animals." The king of hell replied, "Yes, he was a good teacher but he did not believe in Jesus Christ. That's why he is in hell." I was told to look at another person who was in the fire. I saw a man with very long hair wrapped on the left hand side of his head. He was also wearing a robe. I asked the king of hell, "Who is this man?" He replied, "This is the one you worship: Gautama [Buddha]." I was very disturbed to see Gautama in hell. I protested, "Gautama had good ethnics and good moral character, why is he suffering in this lake of fire?" The king of hell answered me, "It doesn't matter how good he was. He is in this place because he did not believe in the Eternal God." Athet Paulu after this experience: After this experience the monk is reported to have become very bold. The Burmese authorities arrested him time after time, but many people all over Burma have been saved as a result of the testimony from this resurrected monk. Source: source Magazinet 16/97 friday 2 May 1997 http://cambodiaforjesus.com/ Monk and Jesus Miracle Story http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOLEW3heQwA here is the transcript: The Buddhist Monk and Jesus Excerpt: Monk “And then the man turned and he walked away, going toward the door. And when he got to the door, he turned back around, and he said, Jesus: ‘My name is Jesus. Monk: “Now, I had never heard that name before, so I didn’t know who Jesus was. He didn’t tell me anything else about himself, only his name. And then I think I must have fallen asleep again. But later on in the night, I felt warmth in my leg. By morning, I had feeling. And when the doctors came to prep me for surgery, my leg was healed.” http://www.asiastories.com/?p=7 Thousands Of Burma Buddhist Monks Embrace Christianity, Missionaries Say Excerpt: "In recent weeks, 4,700 Buddhist monks were led to Christ through our ministry," a missionary said in a statement speaking on condition of anonymity. "It appears that the Holy Spirit had urged these monks and nuns to call our evangelists to come and share the Gospel of hope and love. After several intense discussions, close to 80 percent of the monks present in each of the monasteries raised their hands to accept Christ, and then kneeled down to pray and receive Christ as their Lord and Savior." http://www.worthynews.com/1620-thousands-of-burma-buddhist-monks-embrace-christianity-missionaries-say Hindu Woman asks Jesus to Make Himself Real – HE DID!!! - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKp8w1qR5XMbornagain77_{April 10, 2011
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StephenB: "Notice how blithely you shrug off all the evidence that DLH alludes to, a ton of which you know nothing about and all of which is based on reason, not faith." This belief you have that reason can prove that Christian doctrine is true (which Christian doctrine?) or that the Bible is historically accurate (how do you reconcile the contradictions?) is, frankly, nonsense. You can prove anything with reason. All you have to do is make the appropriate initial assumptions. See my proof that Hell does not exist in #28 for an example. Furthermore, as I have said before, there are examples in history and in recent times of absolutely brilliant philosophers who were spiritually astute and well educated in using reason who have come to other conclusions than that Christian doctrine is true. One such is Ibn al 'Arabi, the Sufi philosopher who was known as the "pole of knowledge". Another, more recent is Bulent Rauf, another Sufi and my former teacher's teacher, who was said to have "worn the hat" of Ibn al 'Arabi in our time. These men were geniuses, steeped in philosophic understanding, totally comfortable with the use of reason, and they came to other conclusions than the ones you cite. Reason is incapable of finding real truth by itself. It can only show what follows logically from something else. To find truth, one must start with something whose truth is known from some source other than reason (faith, intuition, experience, natural knowing, etc.).Bruce David_{April 10, 2011
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f/n; Bruce David, this is pretty cool, it verifies prophecy and historical accuracy in one fell swoop; Isaiah 53 and the Dead Sea Scrolls - verified prophecy before the birth of Christ Excerpt: the following corresponds to Isaiah 53 in today's Old Testament. Remember, this text was dated 100 to 335 years before the birth of Jesus Christ! Translation of the actual Great Isaiah Scroll (Isaiah 53), beginning with line 5 of Column 44: 5. Who has believed our report and the arm of YHWH to whom has it been revealed And he shall come up like a suckling before him 6. and as a root from dry ground there is no form to him and no beauty [+to him+] and in his being seen and there is no appearance 7. that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows and knowing grief 8. and as though hiding faces from him he was despised and we did not esteem him. Surely our griefs he 9. is bearing and our sorrows he carried them and we esteemed him beaten and struck by God 10. and afflicted. and he is wounded for our transgressions, and crushed for our iniquities, the correction 11. of our peace was upon him and by his wounds he has healed us. All of us like sheep have wandered each man to his own way 12. we have turned and YHWH has caused to light on him the iniquity of all of us He was oppressed and he was afflicted and he did not 13. open his mouth, as a lamb to the slaughter he is brought and as a ewe before her shearers is made dumb he did not open 14. his mouth. From prison and from judgment he was taken and his generation who shall discuss it because he was cut off from the land of 15. the living. Because from the transgressions of his people a wound was to him 16. And they gave wicked ones to be his grave and [a scribbled word probably accusative sign "eth"] rich ones in his death 17. although he worked no violence neither deceit in his mouth And YHWH was pleased to crush him and He has caused him grief. 18. If you will appoint his soul a sin offering he will see his seed and he will lengthen his days and the pleasure of YHWH 19. in his hand will advance. Of the toil of his soul he shall see {+light+} and he shall be satisfied and by his knowledge shall he make righteous 20. even my righteous servant for many and their iniquities he will bear. Therefore I will apportion to him among the great ones 21. and with the mighty ones he shall divide the spoil because he laid bare to death his soul and with the transgressors 22. he was numbered, and he, the sins of many, he bore, and for their transgressions he entreated. http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/dead-sea-scrolls-2.htm Dead Sea Scrolls - Dr. Don Patton - video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6386210757621315062 "In Extraordinary ways, modern archaeology has affirmed the historical core of the Old and New testaments - corroborating key points of the stories of Israel's patriarchs, the Exodus, the Davidic monarchy, and the life and times of Jesus." Jeffery Sheler - 'Is The Bible True', U.S. News and World Report, Oct. 25th, 1999, pg.52bornagain77_{April 10, 2011
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Bruce David, I am not completely adverse to accepting a pantheistic book (Conversations with God), even though the best comprehensive NDE studies of pantheistic cultures are overwhelming hellish in their character. Highly suspect but not completely adverse. Merely show me the prophetic scriptures of any pantheistic book that accurately predicted the future thousands of years in advance. I would then at least admit that you are not completely misguided in your attack on Christianity and the Bible.bornagain77_{April 10, 2011
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Clive Haden: Oh, and by the way, those books that were collected into the New Testament contradict each other (see my post #25 for a few examples, but there are many, many more). How do reconcile that with your faith that the Bible is historically accurate?Bruce David_{April 10, 2011
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Clive Haden: "It is an act of faith that you’re not a brain in a vat, that your reasoning has any purchase on the world, that you’re not stuck in a dream in a coma. Besides, the New Testament is a collection of books, by different authors, because it has been brought together as one bigger book is not a reason to regard it as unhistorical. All historical books you must take on faith." What you say is true. Therefore each of us is necessarily thrown back onto themselves and their own inner knowing to decide what to take on faith. I find Conversations with God and books like Seth Speaks far more compelling than the Bible. You are perfectly entitled to have faith in the historical accuracy of the Bible. I have no quarrel with that. However, know that it is an act of faith, and others' intuitive knowing may take them in other directions.Bruce David_{April 10, 2011
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Bruce David, further notes; The End of Christianity - Finding a Good God in an Evil World - Dr. William Dembski - video promo of book http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO-1jdvU7fo Book excerpt of "Finding a Good God in an Evil World"; http://www.designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf Amazon link of 'Finding a Good God in an Evil World'; http://www.amazon.com/End-Christianity-Finding-Good-World/dp/0805427430 ----------------- Does God Exist? - Elementary Student vs. Atheistic Professor http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4007708/ If God Exists, Why is there Evil? - Dr Norman Geisler - video http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=7883E7B5E122C07Fbornagain77_{April 10, 2011
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Bruce David, this may interest you John Hagee - Escape from Hell - video http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=73C91D0C8B16C31B Movie description; Do You believe in life after death? Dr. Eric Robinson wants to believe and experience that infinite love and warmth that near death testimonies claim is on the other side of life. His colleague, Dr. Marissa Holloway, is on a crusade to alleviate the fear of death and suffering by proving to the world that heaven awaits everyone. In a moment of desperation, Dr. Robinson faces death and discovers the reality of hell - a place the Bible portrays - a hell from which we must all escape.bornagain77_{April 10, 2011
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