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God as a necessary, maximally great, endless being vs. the challenge to an actual infinity

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In a recent thread, the Kalam Cosmological argument family was challenged on the issue: can an actual infinity exist? If not (presumably due to Hilbert’s Hotel-like absurdities), then God could not be an infinite being as such is impossible of being.

A thread of discussion developed, and I thought a summary intervention may be helpful. On further thought, perhaps it should be headlined:

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KF, 12: >> I think several themes are worth highlighting.

It can be discussed that non-being, true nothingness cannot be a causal source. Were there ever utter nothing, such would therefore forever obtain. There would be no world.But, manifestly, there is a world.

So, we must ponder the logic of being, at least in a nutshell.

Candidates to being may be such that core characteristics central to identity stand in mutual contradiction such as those of a square circle. Such are impossible of being. And, we see principles of distinct identity necessarily embedded from the outset, especially that truths must be all so together so X and Y where Y = ~ X is not a possible state of affairs. If something could exist in a possible world were it actualised as a state of affairs, it is a possible being.

Of these, some Z can be in at least one possible world Wi, but not in another “neighbouring” one, Wj — contingent beings. The difference Wi – Wj will contain some unmet on-off enabling circumstance for Z . . . a necessary causal condition or factor for Z, say C. If Z is a fire, it requires heat, fuel, oxidiser and an uninterfered-with combustion chain reaction (cf. how Halon extinguishers work).

By contrast, we can see a being N that has no dependence on any such C, which will be in any and all possible worlds. That is, N is a necessary being and will be part of the common framework for any world W to exist. For example, distinct identity (A vs ~A) entails that two-ness and so also the endless set of naturals, must exist. [Beyond which lie the transfinites and the surreals as illustrated.] And, without necessary causal factors C, such has no beginning or end. Given that a world exists, at least one being N must be necessary. (Theists, classically hold that things like numbers are eternally contemplated by God, for instance.)

Any given case Ni is eternal, causeless, framework for any possible world, enabling and structuring it in some way. Notice, eternality not infinity, has been asserted, on the strength that for some W to be, some N must be as key to its framework. We readily see this for two-ness etc.

Such is strange to our ears, maybe, but that is a fault of our education not the logic.

Now too, our world is one of finite stage causal succession as we can see from succession of generations. But it is dubious for such to have existed to the infinitely — endlessly — remote past, as to succeed from some stage s_k to s_k+1, s_k+2 etc is equivalent to a counting succession 0,1,2 . . . which succeeds without limit but in an instance will be such that some later s_p to s_p+1, s_p+2 etc can again be matched 1:1 with 0,1,2 . . . thus showing that a transfinite span, credibly, cannot be traversed in finite-stage successive, cumulative steps. Thus if we are at a now, no S_k is transfinitely remote, even beyond say a big bang at 13.8 BYA. Our world W_a is credibly not some Ni, and has a beginning. It has a cause, a capable, sufficient one.

Where, we exist therein as responsibly and rationally free, morally governed creatures. This constrains the N_a that is at the world-root. For, post Hume et al, only at that level can the IS-OUGHT gap be soundly bridged. And we all know that after centuries of debate, only one serious candidate stands — just put up a viable alternative if you think you can. Good luck with that: ______ (Predictably, a fail.)

This is: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being; worthy of loyalty and of the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature.

But, what about, God is infinite?

I suggest, this first means that God is not externally limited or weakened so that he can be defeated or utterly frustrated in his purposes. Which, is among other things a way of saying that God is not evil, that being the privation, frustration or perversion of good capabilities out of their proper end.

God is also eternal and indestructible, as he has no dependence on external, on/off enabling causal factors. Thus, his being is without beginning or end, endless. This, being a characteristic of necessary being, which is required once a world is.

So, I think we need to reflect on what sense is meant when it is suggested that an actual infinity is impossible of being, and what are its strengths and limitations. For sure, an endless past of finite stage causal succession seems impossible and a physical, materially based infinite quantity is also dubious. But, the transfinite set of natural numbers and beyond the surreals great and small all seem necessary — framework to any world. Which in turn suggests mind capable of such a contemplation.

And more.>>

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Food for thought. END

Comments
Origenes, Recall that I never claimed that I could explain how all this happened, or even if there _was_ an explanation. I'm just asking whether these premises entail a logical or mathematical contradiction, and I am convinced they do not. Once you start asking about explanations, things get more complicated.daveS
January 3, 2018
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DaveS
I agree that each position was, at some time depending on the position, to the right of the traveler, but how do we know they all were, simultaneously?
Multiple reasons. The fact that the positions are aligned is obviously important. From this it follows that, if it was never the case that all positions were simultaneously on the right of (or at the same place as) the traveler, then it was *somehow* always the case that there are visited positions, without an explanation for them being visited. IOWs if it is never the case that all positions are ‘in front’ (or at the same place) of the traveler — all for him to visit — then he was inserted somewhere in the chain with *magically* visited positions ‘behind’ him. The traveler must have all positions in front of him, because he must visit them all. - - - - - At times this is getting so obvious, that it becomes confusing in the sense that I lose track of what the problem is.Origenes
January 3, 2018
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KF, I have presented a collection of premises. Origenes is working to show that those premises entail a contradiction. That is all.daveS
January 3, 2018
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Ds, you are posing a scenario. I am pointing out that it embeds a dubious assumption that decides the matter without proper warrant. KFkairosfocus
January 3, 2018
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Origenes, I agree that each position was, at some time depending on the position, to the right of the traveler, but how do we know they all were, simultaneously?daveS
January 3, 2018
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DaveS @247
DaveS: So, (2) and (3) from #244 tell you that it is not the case that “there are positions which are at all times to the left of the traveler”.
Exactly.
DaveS: That means that given any position, it was once to the right of (or in the same place as) the traveler. That’s completely consistent with the premises.
Indeed. But, in fact, I can get that from “the rightward traveler has visited all positions” alone. It is, of course, the step towards (4) “at some point in time there were no positions to the left of the traveler.” that is crucial. Maybe I can break this up further: - - - - - A. Every visited position was once to the right of (or in the same place as) the traveler. B. All positions are visited. C. The positions are aligned left to right. Therefore, from (A), (B) and (C) D. All positions were, at a certain point in time, all to the right of (or in the same place as) the traveler. Therefore, from (D) E. “At some point in time there were no positions to the left of the traveler.”Origenes
January 3, 2018
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Origenes, Ok, I misunderstood your reasoning. So, (2) and (3) from #244 tell you that it is not the case that "there are positions which are at all times to the left of the traveler". That means that given any position, it was once to the right of (or in the same place as) the traveler. That's completely consistent with the premises.daveS
January 3, 2018
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DaveS: Now the problem is that there aren’t any such positions.
If that is the case, then "at some point in time there were no positions to the left of the traveler." There is no other explanation. For instance, because the positions are lined-up left to right, it cannot be the case that the traveler is busy traveling rightward, while their are still unvisited positions to the left, and later in time there are not. So, at some point in time, the traveler is visiting a position with no positions on the left and all other positions on the right. Again, no other explanation. But if you think you can provide one, do let me know.
If you disagree, name one by giving its distance (in number of steps) from the front of the line.
Wait a minute my argument shows that your premises are incoherent ... — they cannot both be true — and now you expect this incoherent 'thing' to produce exact numbers?Origenes
January 3, 2018
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Origenes, Now the problem is that there aren't any such positions. If you disagree, name one by giving its distance (in number of steps) from the front of the line.daveS
January 3, 2018
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DaveS @243 I agree, that is better. So, again, for clarity: - - - - - 1. Only positions once on the right of the traveler are visited. Therefore, 2. If there are positions, which are at all times to the left of the traveler, then there are unvisited positions. 3. The traveler visits all positions. Therefore, from (2) and (3) 4. At some point in time there were no positions to the left of the traveler.Origenes
January 3, 2018
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Origenes, In the succinct version, you would need this to make the argument work: "If there are positions, which are at all times to the left of the traveler, then there are unvisited positions."daveS
January 3, 2018
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DaveS, At the moment the following formulation of the argument seems most succinct to me:
1. Only positions once on the right of the traveler are visited. Therefore, 2. If, at all times, there are positions to the left of the traveler, then there are unvisited positions. 3. The traveler visits all positions. Therefore, from (2) and (3) 4. At some point in time there were no positions to the left of the traveler.
For some obscure intuitive reason, I hold that the alternative formulation (below) might be inferior:
1. The traveler only visits positions going rightward. Therefore 2. Only positions which, at some point in time, are located on the traveler’s right are being visited. 3. The traveler visits all positions. Therefore, from (2) and (3). 4. At some point in time, at some position, all other positions must be located on the right (and none on the left).
Origenes
January 3, 2018
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Origenes,
(1) If, at all times, there are positions to the left of the traveler, then these are not visited. (2) So, positions which are, at all times, on the left of the traveler have, obviously, no chance of ever being visited.
These are very different, just as the following are different:
(1) For every time, there exist positions which are on the left of the traveler. (2) There exist positions which are, for every time, on the left of the traveler.
(1) is consistent with the original premises, while (2) is not. (Edited: 1 & 2 were reversed).daveS
January 3, 2018
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DaveS @239
DaveS
2. If, at all times, there are positions to the left of the traveler, then these are not visited.
Where does this come from?
I think you know: Only positions on the right are visited. So, positions which are, at all times, on the left of the traveler have, obviously, no chance of ever being visited. - - -
DaveS: Yes. :) Well, if you want to formalize your argument symbolically so that we can check its structure purely mechanically, then you can prove me wrong.
I think I leave the mathematics to your capable hands :)Origenes
January 3, 2018
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Origenes, Yes. :P Well, if you want to formalize your argument symbolically so that we can check its structure purely mechanically, then you can prove me wrong. Edit:
2. If, at all times, there are positions to the left of the traveler, then these are not visited.
Where does this come from?daveS
January 3, 2018
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DaveS: (2) & (3) -> (4) is a non sequitur.
On the ground of you saying so? - - - - edit: Bonus: 1. Only positions once on the right of the traveler are visited. 2. If, at all times, there are positions to the left of the traveler, then there are unvisited positions. 3. The traveler visits all positions. 4. At some point in time there were no positions to the left of the traveler.Origenes
January 3, 2018
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Origenes, From your (2) and (3) you can certainly conclude that each position must have been, at some moment depending on the position, to the right of the traveler. (2) & (3) -> (4) is a non sequitur.daveS
January 3, 2018
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DaveS @235 With a slight modification, I agree with your clarification. My revised argument goes: - - - - 1. The traveler only visits positions going rightward. Therefore 2. Only positions which, at some point in time, are located on the traveler’s right are being visited. 3. The traveler visits all positions. Therefore, from (2) and (3). 4. At some point in time, at some position, all other positions must be located on the right (and none on the left). – – – If it is never the case that the traveler visits a position from where all other positions are on the right, then there are necessarily unvisited positions. - - - - - - - -
DaveS: The collection of “positions which are located on the traveler’s right” varies with time, right?
Right.
DaveS: Choose any position, say n steps from the end, where n is a positive integer. Then that position was to the right of the traveler n + 1 seconds ago, hence it was visited.
At one point in time n + 1 must have been on the right of the traveler, otherwise n + 1 was never visited. But this is a general rule (!): For all visited positions goes that they must have been on the right side of the traveler. And, of course, we also know that ALL positions have been visited. Moreover we know that they are neatly lined-up left to right. So, at some point in time, at some position, all other positions must be located on the right (and none on the left).Origenes
January 3, 2018
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Origenes, I would add this clarification to your #2: ____ 2': Only positions which are/were located on the traveler's right at some moment are being visited. ____ The collection of "positions which are located on the traveler's right" varies with time, right? Choose any position, say n steps from the end, where n is a positive integer. Then that position was to the right of the traveler n + 1 seconds ago, hence it was visited.daveS
January 3, 2018
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DaveS #233
DaveS: This suffers from the same problem as the argument in #222. How do you get from the stated premises to the conclusion that there exists some position in the iPad’s trajectory where all other positions lie to its right?
What? To be clear, I am not arguing that your particular set contains such a position.
DaveS: But you haven’t derived the fact that this leftmost position must exist, starting with the original premises.
I agree. But never did I attempt to prove that in your set this particular position exists. I am truly surprised that you think I did. My argument is simply this: 1. The traveler only visits positions going rightward. Therefore 2. Only positions which are located on the traveler’s right are being visited. 3. The traveler visits all positions. Therefore, from (2) and (3). 4. At some position all other positions must be located on the right (and none on the left). - - - If it is never the case that the traveler visits a position from where all other positions are on the right, then there are necessarily unvisited positions.Origenes
January 3, 2018
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Origenes, This suffers from the same problem as the argument in #222. How do you get from the stated premises to the conclusion that there exists some position in the iPad's trajectory where all other positions lie to its right? You can certainly make some existential statements, for example, given any position in the chain, there is a unique position to its immediate left. That holds since we have assumed the chain has the same order properties as the nonpositive integers. But you haven't derived the fact that this leftmost position must exist, starting with the original premises.daveS
January 3, 2018
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KF, No, I am not attempting to prove anything, so I cannot be begging the question. I have pointed this out many times.daveS
January 3, 2018
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DS, do you see how you are implicitly begging the question of traversal of the infinite, again? KFkairosfocus
January 3, 2018
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DaveS @ This may be it: Because it is the case that the traveler only visits positions going rightward, he must have visited a position from where all other positions are on its right. IOWs from where there are no positions on the left — boundary. If it is never the case that the traveler visits a position from where all other positions are on the right, then there are necessarily unvisited positions.Origenes
January 2, 2018
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Origenes, Up until the last sentence, everything you have written follows from the original premises I stated. How do you prove this last statement?
And, since we never go leftward, this implies that at some point our rightward traveler must visit a position with no positions on the left at all: the ‘First Left’, a.k.a. ‘the farthest point on the left’, a.k.a. ‘the boundary.’
daveS
January 2, 2018
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DaveS: Is your first paragraph above any more than bare assertion? It looks as if you’re just stating what needs to be demonstrated.
Let me try to dig deeper: First, it is clear that there are certain requirements to the travel space. For instance, if one travels only rightward & visits all positions, then the positions must be arranged such that moving rightward coincides with (or ‘results in’) visiting all positions. If we have a travel space with positions all over the place and in every direction, then moving rightward cannot do the job of visiting all positions. We need all positions neatly lined-up left to right. Okay, about the boundary: If one travels only rightward & visits all positions, then all lined up positions on the left must have been already visited or they never will. This means that, at any point, traveling rightward & visit all, cannot take place if there are still unvisited positions on the left. And, since we never go leftward, this implies that at some point our rightward traveler must visit a position with no positions on the left at all: the ‘First Left’, a.k.a. ‘the farthest point on the left’, a.k.a. ‘the boundary.’Origenes
January 2, 2018
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Origenes, Is your first paragraph above any more than bare assertion? It looks as if you're just stating what needs to be demonstrated.daveS
January 1, 2018
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DaveS, Traveling to the right and visit every position can only take place if travel space has a certain form. The travel space must have a farthest border on the left and all positions must be aligned from left to right (between that farthest border and the now), so, that, by going rightward, all positions can be visited. Now you tell me that your infinite set has no border on the left. Well, this tells us that your travel space has not what it takes for a good ol’ rightward traveler who wants to visit all positions. However, don't you worry, these old-timers are tough as nails and used to set-backs.Origenes
January 1, 2018
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Origenes, It's an assertion which holds true under certain circumstances, but you haven't shown it follows logically from the premises I laid out (which you concisely summarized in the first (A) of #222).daveS
January 1, 2018
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DaveS: You have observed that for finite sets (where there is an element “farthest to the left”), a traversal must visit that element farthest to the left.
Not necessarily, “There must be a limit to the left that has been visited” is a logical conclusion that can be drawn even if one has never seen a specific set. - - - - - - “I have come from afar and followed the path of an arrow to your blessed city, Sire. And, noble King, I can be of service to you, because I have seen everything from afar to here.” “Then there must be a boundary to afar which you have seen, stranger,” spoketh the wise King.Origenes
January 1, 2018
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