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Is Atheism Rationally Justifiable?

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First, I’d like to thank Mr. Arrington for granting me posting privileges.  I consider it quite an honor, and I hope this post (and any future posts) warrants this trust.

Second, the following is an argument I think will help us to focus on a fundamental issue that lies behind ever so many of the debates here at Uncommon Descent, and elsewhere.  That is, is the sort of implicit or even explicit atheism that is so often built in on the ground floor of a “scientific” mindset truly rationally justifiable? Such cannot be assumed, it needs to be shown.

I’ll begin by defining some terms for the sake of this argument:

Definition of God (for the purpose of this thread): First cause, prime mover, root of being, objective source of human purpose (final cause) and resulting morality, source of free will, mind, consciousness; omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent inasmuch as principles of logic allow; an interventionist as necessary to facilitate movement towards final cause and also inasmuch as logical principles are not violated; source of logic — “reason itself.” (I am not talking in particular about any specifically defined religious interpretation of god, such as the Chrstian or Islamic God.)

Definition: Weak, or negative atheism is the lack of any belief that a god exists, and the position that a god probably doesn’t exist, and is not the positive belief that gods do not exist (strong atheism), and is not agnosticism (the lack of belief that god either does or does not exist and the further view that there is a lack of sufficient probability either way).  Strong atheism is the belief that no god or gods exist at all.

Definition: A worldview or mindset is rationally justified when it answers adequately to the facts of the real world as we experience or observe it, makes good sense and fits together logically, is simple but not simplistic, and honestly faces the issues and difficulties that all worldviews face.

Definition: Intellectual dishonesty occurs when (1) one deliberately mischaracterizes their position or view in order to avoid having to logically defend their actual views; and/or (2) when someone is arguing, or making statements against a position while remaining willfully ignorant about that position, and/or (3) when someone categorically and/or pejoratively dismisses all existent and/or potential evidence in favor of a conclusion they claim to be neutral about, whether they are familiar with that evidence or not.

These will be important as we consider:

Evidence in favor of God:  The following is a brief summary of the evidence that typically leads many people to make a general finding that a god (as described above) exists, even if variantly interpreted or culturally contextualized:

(1)
Anecdotal evidence for the apparently intelligently ordered anomalous, miraculous (defying expected natural processes and probabilities) events attributed to god, such as signs, supernatural events (e.g. Fatima, Guadeloupe, Paul’s Damascus Road Experience), or answers to prayers to god;

(2)
Testimonial evidence (first-hand accounts) of experience of such phenomena, including interactions with a god-like being or accounts of god-like interventions;  Also, the testimony of religious adherents of various specific gods can be counted as evidence of the god premised in this argument in the manner that various cultures can vary widely in their description of certain phenomena or experiences, and come up with widely variant “explanations”; what is interesting as evidence here, though, is the widespread crediting of similar kinds of phenomena and experience to a “god” of some sort (which might be the case of blind or ignorant people touching different parts of an elephant and thus describing “what the elephant is” in various ways). Such testimonial evidence can be counted in favor of the premise here, but cannot be held against it where it varies, because it is not testimony that such a god doesn’t exist.

(3)
The various Cosmological and Ontological Arguments for the existence of god;

(4)  The Strong Anthropic (or Fine Tuning) argument and other evidences for design of our world and of life in it;

(5) The empirical, scientific evidence assembled in support of the design arguments in #4 (such as recently persuaded Antony Flew — formerly the world’s leading philosophical atheist — that there is a god);

(6) The Moral arguments for the existence of god.

(7) Empirical and testimonial evidence of phenomena closely correlated to the existence of a god as described above, such as the survival of consciousness after death, and the existence of an afterlife realm; the evidence for interactions with correlated entities such as angels and demons (which seem to act to influence our free will towards or away from our human purpose), etc., gathered by various serious and scientific investigations into what is often referred to as the “paranormal”, including mediumship studies dating back to William Crooke and ongoing through the work at Pear Labs and the Scole Experiment, including consciousness-survival research published in the Lancet. While indirect, this evidence tends to support the proposition that god exists.

While the various arguments listed above have been subjected to counter-arguments and rebuttals of varying strengths and weaknesses across the ages, one must not lose sight that while there is much evidence of all sorts (as listed above) in favor of the existence of god; there is zero empirical evidence (to my knowledge) or and little in the way of rational argument that no such god exists.  In other words, decreasing the value of the arguments and evidence for god does not increase the value of the position that there is no god; it can only increase the reasonableness of the “weak atheist” (there isn’t enough evidence) or an agnostic position.

The commonly seen rebuttals to these argument are simply attempting to show weaknesses in or alternatives to the arguments themselves so that such arguments cannot be taken as demonstratively convincing (that god exists); such counter-arguments as a rule do not actually make the case that god (as described above) in fact does not exist.

The argument against weak atheism:

The above shows us that, ironically, strong atheism is a weak position. That is probably why atheism advocates seldom defend it in informed company. So, we must first focus on the “stronger” atheist position, the one they defend in public: “weak atheism,” generally described as absence of belief in god or gods. I will argue that it too is far weaker than is commonly recognized.

I know of no positive arguments for the strong “there is no god” position, other than the argument from evil which has been addressed by Boethius, Adams  and Platinga. Aside from that, there are only rebuttals/reactions to various “there is a god” arguments. This exemplifies how rebutting an argument does not eliminate it as evidence, it only offers an alternative perspective that one  can evaluate along with the original argument.   Depending on the strength of the rebuttal or alternative explanation, that particular positive evidence for god may be decreased in value, but there is no concurrent increase in the value of an argument against the existence of god (as described above).

If a “weak atheist” claims to “lack belief” because there is “no evidence for god,” he or she is necessarily being intellectually dishonest, because we certainly aren’t privy to all potential or available evidence. Are such atheists claiming to be omniscient? If not, then, a more modest and reasonable point would be that they are not aware of evidence for god. However, given what we have already seen, such “weak atheists” cannot genuinely claim to not know of “any” evidence for god after having perused any of the above evidence.  That is to say, there is evidence for god, just, they don’t accept it. But incredulity or hyper-skepticism on your part does not equate to “no evidence” on my part. Testimony from otherwise credible sources is not made “less credible” simply because the testimony is about something the listener personally finds to be in-credible; it is not intellectually honest to discredit the credibility of testimony only on the basis of the subject matter being debated.

Also, strong atheists often only refer to themselves as weak atheists because they have realized that the strong atheist position is an assertion they cannot support in informed company.  They do this to provide cover for their real view, which is an obvious form of intellectual dishonesty.  One can often discern when this is going on when the person ridicules belief in god or makes categorical dismissals about evidence they have never even seen; they believe there is no god, and so assume there can be no valid evidence for god, and advocate for that position rhetorically via ridicule.

Even if the “weak atheist” is not aware of any compelling evidence for god, he or she must know that we humans are quite limited in what we know, and may often be unaware of mistakes in what we think we know. That means that any categorical claim a “weak” atheist makes about the available evidence he or she is not privy to — that it is not credible or convincing — is again intellectually dishonest because you cannot justifiably make a categorical claim about something you have no knowledge of.

So, if we have a weak atheist who is aware of the existence of the above evidence and agrees that there might be more evidence they are not privy to; and who does not categorically assert problems with the evidence they have not yet seen; and who does not categorically dismiss the available evidence as “non-evidence” due to hyper-skeptical bias but rather states that the available evidence they have seen is not compelling towards a conclusion that god exists; then one must ask the following:

In the face of such overwhelming amounts of evidence — thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories; many serious arguments based on credible empirical evidence and apparently necessary logical premises and inferences; and, the complete lack of any generally successful attempt to make a sound argument that god in fact does not exist — one must ask: how can any intellectually honest person come to any conclusion other than that on the balance of the evidence, god probably existseven if god is poorly and diversely defined, and even if the experience of god is open to various interpretations and even to misunderstanding?

As an analogy: even if one has never personally experienced “love”; in the face of thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories that love exists, and empirical evidence supporting that certain physical states correspond to assertions of experiences of love, would it be intellectually honest to “lack belief” that love exists, or would it be intellectually honest to hold the view that even though one doesn’t experience love (or using the same argument, color, joy, dreams, etc.), that love probably exists – even if people are widely disparate in their explanation, description, or presentation of what love is?

Another analogy: because witnesses disagree in their description of a criminal suspect in a crime, or disagree about the particulars of the crime they witnessed, this doesn’t mean there is no criminal at all.  Depending on the testimony and evidence, one may hold that it is likely that a crime occurred, and so it is likely that a criminal exists, but that the arguments, testimony and evidence are  not enough reach a finding of “guilty” for any particular suspect.

As far as I am aware of there is no anecdotal or testimonial evidence that god does not exist (because lack of experience of a thing isn’t evidence the thing doesn’t exist), very little in the way of logical argument towards that conclusion, and there is a vast array of logical, anecdotal, testimonial and empirical evidence that god (at least as generally described above) does exist. Because a billion people did not witness a crime, and only a handful did, doesn’t tilt the scales in favor of no crime having been committed at all; imagine now a billion people that report witnessing a crime, and handful that did not, and you have something more comparable to the state of evidence concerning the existence of god.

Even if one doesn’t find that evidence compelling for for a final conclusion that god exists,  when one weighs the balance of the evidence for and against god, one should be willing to at least consider whether it is more probable that god (as described above) exists than that god does not exist.  Problematically (for the atheist), the view that it is more likely that god exists than not is not any sort of an atheistic position.

The argument against strong atheism:

Strong atheism is defined as the assertion that no god or gods exist whatsoever.

First, it is obvious that strong atheism cannot be logically supported, simply because it is impossible to prove (not in the absolute sense, but in the “sufficient evidence” sense). There may be evidence and good argument that certain gods, or kinds of gods, do not exist; but there is certainly no generally accepted evidence or successful argument that no significant, meaningful god or gods whatsoever exist, including the one as defined for this thread.

Instead of trying to actually support their own claim, strong atheists usually attempt to shift the burden of proof onto theists by essentially asking the theists to prove the atheist position wrong, implying or asserting that atheism must be held true by default.  That is, such try to argue that they have nothing to argue and can sit comfortably on their view as a default. However, that is not so; every worldview of consequence has a duty to show that it is factually adequate, coherent and explains reality powerfully and simply.  Strong atheism is not a default position; it is a positive assertion that no god or gods exist.  The default position is always “I don’t know” or true agnosticism.

Strong atheism is a sweeping, categorical assertion that something does not exist. As such, It has the job of proving a universal negative.  Perhaps this could be accomplished by showing the converse positive claim to be self-contradictory, and readers advocating strong atheism are invited to make their case based upon the definition of God at the top of this post.

Also, however unlikely it may seem to an atheist, it might be true that a god of some sort exists outside of the circle of what she or he knows or what the collective of atheists actually know. After all, we all know full well that “to err is human.” So, since the atheist could be mistaken or ignorant of the key fact or argument that would be decisive,  the strong atheist position unjustifiably excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration.  What is the rationally useful point of a metaphysical position that excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration?  Especially when it requires asserting an unsupportable universal negative? What, then, does strong atheism bring to the table of debate other than the potential for intractable error and denial of potential truth for the sake of a sweeping, unsupportable, universally negative assertion?

Conclusion: atheism is an untenable position for any intellectually honest, rational, and informed person. The belief that god (as described above, which is supported by the listed evidence) does not exist, or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god.

Comments
@Graham2 There is no evidence for Russell's teapot. What do you think about the evidence in favor of god's existence as presented by William J Murray?Box
January 7, 2013
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Box: No. You are asking for evidence of absence, and there isnt any, just as there is no evidence for the absence of the celestial teapot.Graham2
January 7, 2013
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Graham2, are you aware of any evidence against the existence of god?Box
January 7, 2013
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G2 at 48. That precise description reminds me of Marx and Freud, and of another ideologue of that same century, of much influence even now, whose name strangely escapes me.Ian Thompson
January 7, 2013
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I allowed myself to be sidetracked a bit there. ID seems to be like Scientology all over again. Extravagant promises + messianic zeal, followed by a long slow death as it is realized the emperor has no clothes.Graham2
January 7, 2013
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Graham2, since you think 'evolutiondidit' please provide a demonstration of the protein complex, they are drooling over, arising by purely Darwinian processes! Trouble is for you, and for the researchers who are floored by the 'engineering' of the protein complex, is that you don't have ANY examples of ANY molecular machines arising by material processes (you don't even have an example of a single novel protein arising in such fashion), whereas I have examples of Intelligence producing both molecular machines and proteins. Go figure!bornagain77
January 7, 2013
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Ba77: You are missing the point. Unless your point is that you (ID) just sit around, waiting for (materialist) Science to do all the hard work for you. Regarding the paper Unlocking nature’s quantum engineering ..., just because it has the magic word 'quantum' in it, you jump to the conclusion that, by golly, gee whiz, Evolution couldnt have done it. Why not?. I would rather place my 'faith' in Evolution than an invisible friend in the sky.Graham2
January 7, 2013
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Hilarious article in the New Scientist, implicitly demonstrating the decadence of the post-Christian West, in its comparison of the effectiveness of our respective education systems. In the UK, the atheist, Socialist politicos want religious schools to be denied government funding, yet they all want their children to be educated in them, and will lie and cheat to do so. Even move house, if necessary! However, what makes the article comical is that the author seeks to downplay its significance by saying how much more commercially successful and prosperous we've been in the West (never mind that it's been increasingly for the few at the dire expense of the many, and on the back of a Ponzi debt-bubble, bringing us via this polarisation, to the brink of an economic tsunami)!Axel
January 7, 2013
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Graham2, can you tell me if this paper, which came out today, either supports or questions the blind material processes of Darwinism?
Unlocking nature's quantum engineering for efficient solar energy - January 7, 2013 Excerpt: Certain biological systems living in low light environments have unique protein structures for photosynthesis that use quantum dynamics to convert 100% of absorbed light into electrical charge,,, "Some of the key issues in current solar cell technologies appear to have been elegantly and rigorously solved by the molecular architecture of these PPCs – namely the rapid, lossless transfer of excitons to reaction centres.",,, These biological systems can direct a quantum process, in this case energy transport, in astoundingly subtle and controlled ways – showing remarkable resistance to the aggressive, random background noise of biology and extreme environments. "This new understanding of how to maintain coherence in excitons, and even regenerate it through molecular vibrations, provides a fascinating glimpse into the intricate design solutions – seemingly including quantum engineering – ,,, and which could provide the inspiration for new types of room temperature quantum devices." http://phys.org/news/2013-01-nature-quantum-efficient-solar-energy.html
If Graham2 you say, against all common sense, that it supports blind Darwinian processes, please demonstrate for those of us who can't quite muster that much blind faith in the undirected processes of Darwinism that the protein complex, that they are drooling over, can arise by purely Darwinian processes! further notes:
Scientists unlock some key secrets of photosynthesis - July 2, 2012 Excerpt: "The photosynthetic system of plants is nature's most elaborate nanoscale biological machine," said Lakshmi. "It converts light energy at unrivaled efficiency of more than 95 percent compared to 10 to 15 percent in the current man-made solar technologies.,, "Photosystem II is the engine of life," Lakshmi said. "It performs one of the most energetically demanding reactions known to mankind, splitting water, with remarkable ease and efficiency.",,, "Water is a very stable molecule and it takes four photons of light to split water," she said. "This is a challenge for chemists and physicists around the world (to imitate) as the four-photon reaction has very stringent requirements." http://phys.org/news/2012-07-scientists-key-secrets-photosynthesis.html The Miracle Of Photosynthesis - electron transport - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj_WKgnL6MI Electron transport and ATP synthesis during photosynthesis - Illustration http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?rid=cooper.figgrp.1672 The Elaborate Nanoscale Machine Called Photosynthesis: No Vestige of a Beginning - Cornelius Hunter - July 2012 Excerpt: "The ability to do photosynthesis is widely distributed throughout the bacterial domain in six different phyla, with no apparent pattern of evolution. Photosynthetic phyla include the cyanobacteria, proteobacteria (purple bacteria), green sulfur bacteria (GSB), firmicutes (heliobacteria), filamentous anoxygenic phototrophs (FAPs, also often called the green nonsulfur bacteria), and acidobacteria (Raymond, 2008)." http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/07/elaborate-nanoscale-machine-called.html?showComment=1341739083709#c1202402748048253561
In what I find to be a very fascinating discovery, it is found that photosynthetic life, which is an absolutely vital link that all higher life on earth is dependent on for food, uses ‘non-local’ quantum mechanical principles to accomplish photosynthesis. Moreover, this is direct evidence that a non-local, beyond space-time mass-energy, cause must be responsible for ‘feeding’ all life on earth, since all higher life on earth is eventually completely dependent on this non-local, beyong spane and time, ‘photosynthetic energy’ in which to live their lives on this earth: Non-Local Quantum Coherence In Photosynthesis - video with notes in description http://vimeo.com/30235178 Unusual Quantum Effect Discovered in Earliest Stages of Photosynthesis - May 2012 Excerpt: The quantum effects observed in the course of the experiment hint that the natural light-harvesting processes involved in photosynthesis may be more efficient than previously indicated by classical biophysics, said chemist Gary Wiederrecht of Argonne's Center for Nanoscale Materials. "It leaves us wondering: how did Mother Nature create this incredibly elegant solution?" he said. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120524092932.htm Quantum Mechanics at Work in Photosynthesis: Algae Familiar With These Processes for Nearly Two Billion Years - Feb. 2010 Excerpt: "We were astonished to find clear evidence of long-lived quantum mechanical states involved in moving the energy. Our result suggests that the energy of absorbed light resides in two places at once -- a quantum superposition state, or coherence -- and such a state lies at the heart of quantum mechanical theory.",,, "It suggests that algae knew about quantum mechanics nearly two billion years before humans," says Scholes. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100203131356.htm A few notes on the theistic implications of light itself: It is found that light is extremely fine tuned to the atmosphere, to biological molecules and to water, for life to exist: Extreme (1 in 10^24) Fine Tuning of Light for Life and Scientific Discovery - Richards, Gonzalez - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/7715887 Visible light is incredibly fine-tuned for life to exist. Though visible light is only a tiny fraction of the total electromagnetic spectrum coming from the sun, it happens to be the "most permitted" portion of the sun's spectrum allowed to filter through the our atmosphere. All the other bands of electromagnetic radiation, directly surrounding visible light, happen to be harmful to organic molecules, and are almost completely absorbed by the atmosphere. The tiny amount of harmful UV radiation, which is not visible light, allowed to filter through the atmosphere is needed to keep various populations of single cell bacteria from over-populating the world (Ross; reasons.org). The size of light's wavelengths and the constraints on the size allowable for the protein molecules of organic life, also seem to be tailor-made for each other. This "tailor-made fit" allows photosynthesis, the miracle of sight, and many other things that are necessary for human life. These specific frequencies of light (that enable plants to manufacture food and astronomers to observe the cosmos) represent less than 1 trillionth of a trillionth (10^-24) of the universe's entire range of electromagnetic emissions. Like water, visible light also appears to be of optimal biological utility (M.Denton; W.Bradley; G.Gonzalez; J.Richards). etc.. etc...bornagain77
January 7, 2013
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KF: 50 papers ? We have all seen the list and they are a mix of 'ID friendly' papers, magazine articles, 'peer-edited' articles, etc, but say we grant that ID has produced 50 papers. How long have you been at it ... 10 years ? 20 years ? 50 papers would be the typical output of a couple of researchers for this time. What happened to the army ? And while we are at it, perhaps we could check the fecundity of PCID ?, Bio-Complexity?Graham2
January 7, 2013
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PS: It seems you don't know enough -- or don't care -- to address the difference between theology and philosophy. FYI, the issue on the table is philosophy, not theology, and phil becomes relevant when science gets derailed by hidden assumptions or ideologies. Which is exactly what Lewontinian a priori materialism -- whether blatant or hidden under "mere" methodological rules -- is about. You threw the first punch, now, put up your dukes.kairosfocus
January 7, 2013
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G2: you have not even bothered to see that there is in fact a growing body of published, peer reviewed research [now at about 50 papers IIRC], never mind the censorship, expulsion and slander games. And I cannot let up on the point that say the expulsion of Gonzalez HAD to have had an impact. And that was a piece of unjust career busting if I ever saw one. Besides, the issue is, to find well warranted truth about our world in light of empirical investigation and reasoned analysis. Where, also, on the table for this thread is the challenge to warrant the Lewontinian a priori evolutionary materialism that is so often smuggled in as a mere, centuries long methodological rule. You are playing at subject switching to derail discussion again. Put up your dukes. KFkairosfocus
January 7, 2013
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Axel: Infinity, the continuum and infinitesimals are all over the place in mathematics and its applications, so we need to have a working theory for dealing with them, well do I remember seeing this in action with calculus, curve sketching, limits, etc. The trick in our contexts of the debate points we face is that we deal with issues tied to traversing a countable of cardinality aleph null, such as infinite regress of causes or warrants. You simply cannot either count up to or count down from infinity step by step, neither can you reach to or from it in a step by step process. That is what has to be squarely faced and then we have to drive out question begging circles and self referential and incoherent frames of thought. KFkairosfocus
January 7, 2013
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My point is that if ID was as fertile as you guys claim (the growing army of 'ID theorists'), we would see, at least a dribble, of original results. I thought that was the point of this blog ... to discuss ID, but it has more or less totally degenerated to theology. When shall we see the latest ID research/discoveries that finally kill off materialism ? I dont think material Science is feeling particularly threatened. The death of the IDEA clubs is significant.Graham2
January 7, 2013
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F/N: G2 is trying the old, ID does not publish talking point, neatly ducking the exposeed reality of materialist censorship in the name of peer review, and the fact that if a certain Judge Jones had cared to acknowledge bare facts presented to him in his own courtroom, was past sell-by date in 2005. Cf the list of publications here, which does not address the cosmological side in detail, which has a lot more.kairosfocus
January 7, 2013
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In re: Axel @ 32: Yes, that's correct: formal logic is study of validity, of what it is for one assertion to follow from another assertion. It won't tell you if your initial assertions are true, and even more importantly: if you put a whole bunch of sentences into a logical system, the system will tell you which ones are inconsistent with which other ones, but it cannot tell you which sentences should be tossed. To do that, one needs a much more powerful system that a simple deductive system. For example, you might assign probabilities to the sentences, and toss out the lower-probability sentences if they are not consistent with the higher-probability sentences. But that's really one big Red Herring, since Russell's criticisms of organized religion do not depend on formal logic at all.Kantian Naturalist
January 7, 2013
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Box: Unfortunately, Russell isn't here to make his case or share his views concerning god as I've defined above. Theism is not not a philosophy subsumed by Christianity + Nordic + Greek pantheons. I think many people in the west have thrown the theistic baby out with the bathwater in a fit of ill-considered outrage and/or a sensation of intellectual superiority over what is often referred to as "stone-age myths".William J Murray
January 7, 2013
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I should have said, '... and about as useful as a bicycle-frame without wheels.... or, a crossword.'Axel
January 7, 2013
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G2: Now, it seems the problem is as bad as twisting the still in progress deconstruction of Wiki's hatchet job on ID into pretzels. Here is the root problem with addressing origins science, as addressed by Lewontin in a cat out of the bag quote that says it all:
the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[--> actually, this is another logical error, begging the question, confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [[--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [ --> and if you think you can wiggle out of this by pretending that a priori materialism does not mean just what it says, understand that to such materialists the ONLY reality is physical and/or derived therefrom, ever since Lucretius and co. That means that physical reality is the only thing there to be understood, that's why to them science (which studies the physical world in its various aspects) is the only begetter of truth, a big blunder: scientism. Similarly, the common diversion that this is quote mined fails, cf here on for the fuller quote and discussion. As to the notion that those who believe in God believe in a chaos that frustrates the possibility of science, let the brute historical fact that it was theists who founded and launched modern science from within a view that the God of order and reason made a reasonable and intelligible world for our benefit and invites us to explore and make good of it speak to that, as well as the related fact that theology highlights that to stand out as signs pointing beyond the usual order of the world, which is what miracles would be, there must first be a usual order of the world. That is, by their very nature miracles would be necessarily rare and in contexts that make sense of such signs. Not to mention, the lawful order of the world is itself a big sign, as Newton and others pointed out.]
That is why atheism, in the a priori evolutionary materialism form, cannot be ducked in the end. It is being written into the science and is begging the questions before the facts can speak. And is quite evidently in key part driven by hostility, as we see in ever so many forms. I call that throwing the first punch. A favourite distraction from that little logical blunder, is to try the turnabout accusation (the one I have objected to here that you are now trying to twist about), oh design thinking is not about the design inference, no, no, no, it is about creationism hiding in a cheap tuxedo to try to evade US Supreme Court rulings. Which is -- as noted and linked -- what Wiki says, and which (for cause) is what I call out as a piece of propagandistic fabrication of false history. As in, Wiki is playing the "they hit back first" card. Do me a favour: you tell me on the facts -- the thread is still open and the facts are laid out step by step, why the actual history of ID's founding era from 1953 - 1984 (as was laid out as just linked), is not able to speak for itself, say in the voice of Nobel Equivalent prize holder Fred Hoyle, circa 1981/2. And remember, the date of the first ID technical book, TMLO, is 1984. As, in it cannot reasonably be said to be a reaction to the Edwards decision of 1987. That is why -- frankly, deceitfully -- Wiki makes much of a 1989 high school supplement book, instead of dealing with the real deal, TMLO in context of 1953 - 1984. Where I come from, that is a strawman tactic, and where Ms Forrest and co of the NCSE and Louisiana Hummanists [= Atheists . . . hint, hint . . . ] come from, it is a strawman tactic, too. Having thrown your attempted rhetorical sucker punches, put up your dukes. If you cannot back up on facts all the material facts not just half truths, you are guilty of further trying to spread a propagandistic lie, in order to trollishly derail a thread that takes the a priori materialism jag back home to where it belongs. Namely, atheism in the form of a priori evolutionary materialism as underlying ideology. And in taking the issue back home, this thread is raising some serious questions about strong and weak form atheism and warrant that need to be answered on the merits. Maybe, WJM has it all wrong, and a priori evolutionary materialist atheism in some form can stand up in serious worldviews company. If so, feel free to show it. So far, though, what we are seeing is the same tactics that are so familiar and which he reports have been used against him for years. They have passed sell-by date. You have thrown the first punch. So, put up your dukes. In fact, let me extend the 3 months plus, no takers to date 6,000 word challenge to produce an article to make the case for materialist evolution on OOL and OO body plans accounting for the tree of life. On similar terms, I am willing to host here at UD an article that lays out the worldviews level warrant for Lewontinian a priori materialism/atheism. As the one who tried the turnabout tactic, I make it first and foremost personal: YOU are hereby invited to put up your dukes and provide the article. Let's see you make the case. Put up your dukes. KFkairosfocus
January 7, 2013
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Graham2:
There are real papers related to Evolution published more or less daily, but ID ?
What kind of "evolution" are those papers related to? Unguided, ie blind watchmaker, evolution? Or guided/ directed, ie Intelligent Design, evolution? I know how to test Intelligent Design evolution. And no one appears to know how to test blind watchmaker evolution. Strange, that...Joe
January 7, 2013
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It seems that in distinguishing the features of formal logic, Russell, arguably, led mankind up the garden path, threw us a red herring, since it is too easy for the intellectual to see logic, itself, as having autonomous merit, irrespective of the merit of the premise. To me. Formal logic is a kind of crossword for people with mathematical minds, and about as useful as a bicycle-frame without wheels. (But then, I could be biased, as I could never understand it! So, I insist it's a parlour-game for nerds). At least the notation, 'infinity', however entirely notional it apparently is, serves a very useful purpose to you bods with minds like Kairo, bornagain and the rest of you, in your mathematical forays.Axel
January 7, 2013
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William J Murray: “Sure, but since I didn’t propose a Christian definition of god anyway, are his arguments really relevant here?”
Not the part about Jesus and churches of course. Does B. Russell declare himself to be an atheist and is he therefor intellectually dishonest? Well ... B. Russell draws very near to atheism. “An agnostic, in any sense in which he can be regarded as one, may hold that the existence of God, though not impossible, is very improbable; he may even hold it so improbable that it is not worth considering in practice." To the question ’Do you think it is certain that there is no such thing as God?’ Russell answered, "No, I don't think it is certain there is no such thing — I think it is on exactly the same level as the Olympic gods, or the Norwegian gods; they also may exist, the gods of Olympus and Valhalla. I can't prove they don't, but I think that the Christian God has no more likelihood than they had. I think they are a bare possibility."Box
January 7, 2013
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Logic is no more than the skill to work out the things you WANT to understand, and is anything but proof against the most arrant lunacy, if the individual using it, no matter how prestigious his accreditations, chooses not to base his premises on sound, internally-coherent hypotheses, e.g. the internally-conflictual, nay, internecine, symbiosis of theodicy and materialism. (Cornelius isn't the only one who can use big words, even if he does so to better effect!) Leading lights of professional Establishments tend to be career-driven, rather than driven by a burning para-messianic zeal for truth and the common weal. Intellectual integrity would not figure high on the list of the professional or personal desiderata of many such luminaries. Ergo, the World is every bit as crazy as Christ taught us.Axel
January 7, 2013
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How would naturalism fit into atheism? Which is prior (encompasses the other)?Steve_Gann
January 7, 2013
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Mr. Murray, Thanks for the post and opportunity to hammer out the different kind of atheism. I greatly appreciate it. What I would like to see from strong atheists is "I have justified true beliefs that there is no God and here they are: _____, __________, ___________. So far all I have seen is sneering.Steve_Gann
January 7, 2013
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Box, Sure, but since I didn't propose a Christian definition of god anyway, are his arguments really relevant here?William J Murray
January 7, 2013
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JGuy: I have no notable related background or education, other than that I had a couple of philosophy books published in the mid 1990's.William J Murray
January 7, 2013
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In ‘Why I Am Not A Christian’ (1927), Bertrand Russell takes on arguments in favor of God one by one. Some of his objections are simply outdated. Trying to deal with the cosmological argument he states: “There is no reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our imagination. Therefore, perhaps, I need not waste any more time upon the argument about the First Cause.” Bertrand was of course unaware of the Big Bang theory. For the same reason he wasn’t able to address Fine Tuning arguments. He pays no attention to anecdotal and testimonial evidence at all. He isn’t impressed by Jesus and hates churches.Box
January 7, 2013
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Semi related note that may be of mild interest: Both Charles Darwin and Abraham Lincoln were born on the same day and shared many strange similarities: "Both men lost their mothers in early childhood, both suffered depression and both struggled with religious questions. The two also had poor relations with their fathers and each lost a child in early childbirth. Lincoln and Darwin both share "late bloomers" disease: Neither found real success until their middle years — Darwin published The Origin of the Species at 50 and Lincoln was elected President one year later." http://www.tressugar.com/Lincoln-Darwin-More-Alike-Than-Youd-Might-Think-1757730 But the one common thing that separated the two men drastically was the way they choose to handle evil in their lives. Darwin, though drifting away for a long while earlier, was permanently driven away from God because of the death of his daughter: "The death of his daughter was a significant event in Darwin’s life, and certainly consolidated his belief that a bad world is incompatible with a good God." http://askjohnmackay.com/questions/answer/darwin-did-death-charles-daughter-annie-turn-him-against-god-christianity Whereas Lincoln was driven from his mild skepticism into a deeper reliance upon God because of the death of his son: Abraham Lincoln's Path to Divine Providence Excerpt: In 1862, when Lincoln was 53 years old, his 11-year-old son Willie died. Lincoln’s wife “tried to deal with her grief by searching out New Age mediums.” Lincoln turned to Phineas Gurley, pastor of the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church in Washington. Several long talks led to what Gurley described as “a conversion to Christ.” Lincoln confided that he was “driven many times upon my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I have nowhere else to go.” Similarly, the horrors of the dead and wounded soldiers assaulted him daily. There were fifty hospitals for the wounded in Washington. The rotunda of the Capitol held 2,000 cots for wounded soldiers. Typically, fifty soldiers a day died in these temporary hospitals. All of this drove Lincoln deeper into the providence of God. “We cannot but believe, that He who made the world still governs it.” His most famous statement about the providence of God in relation to the Civil War was his Second Inaugural Address, given a month before he was assassinated. It is remarkable for not making God a simple supporter for the Union or Confederate cause. He has his own purposes and does not excuse sin on either side. "Fondly do we hope—fervently do we pray—that this mighty scourge of war might speedily pass away.... Yet if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man’s two hundred years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid with another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago so still it must be said, “the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether.” http://www.christianity.com/theology/abraham-lincolns-path-to-divine-providence-11599728.htmlbornagain77
January 7, 2013
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WJM: Some previous threads were complaining that Wiki got it all wrong, ID is not related to creationism, its all Scientific, by golly. Yet UD has degenerated to nothing but philosophy/theology. Sure, you can discuss anything you like. Dental flossing is important for oral hygeine, but how is related to ID ? If there were any real progress in ID, we would hear about it (on this blog). There are real papers related to Evolution published more or less daily, but ID ?Graham2
January 7, 2013
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