Michael Egnor to Jerry Coyne: God’s existence can be shown by science methods

Tjguy: A secondary function of suffering is that it helps us to see our weakness and need for God. How many deaths does that take? Sorry, just feeling a bit sad and scared and sorry for all the people who aren't going to make it through this outbreak. If there is a plan or design it would be nice to know what it is though. I can deal with a lot if I know there's a reason. JVL

@9 Tjguy: Excellent post. Thank you. Materialism will not solve the problem of evil. Truthfreedom

Seversky @1 "If your God is real then he already knew the pandemic was coming before it even hit." Yes, that is certainly true. Is. 40:13-14 "Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or as His counselor has informed Him? With whom did He consult and who gave Him understanding? And who taught Him in the path of justice and taught Him knowledge And informed Him of the way of understanding?" "If your God is real then he already knows what you are going to need before you do." This is also true. Matt. 6:8 "...your Father knows what you need before you ask him." "If your God is real then he already knows what you’re going to ask him in your prayers." This is also true! You are a real theologian! Ps. 139:4 "Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether." "So tell me, what is the point of praying?" Actually, this is a very good question and would take a long time to answer in a comprehensive way, but prayer is definitely mysterious. God is NOT a vending machine. Prayer is NOT a means for us to get our selfish desires fulfilled. Here are some of the purposes for prayer: 1) It takes our minds off of the problem and helps us to focus on the One who is greater than all and in control over all. It helps to protect us from being controlled by worry and fear. We gain hope, peace, and encouragement when we remember who He is. 2) Prayer shows our faith and trust in God and it pleases God when His children look to Him for help as opposed to trusting in themselves or some other human concept/idol, etc. 3) Prayer deepens our relationship with God and relationship is the most important thing in Christianity. A Christian is someone who has become a child of God, who knows God as his Father, and who enjoys a life-long and actually an eternal relationship with Him. So for the sake of relationship, talking with God is important. 4) Prayer sometimes is a way of us just pouring out our hearts - getting it all out and even venting our emotions, sometimes our anger - and coming to terms with God's will. 5) Prayer does move God's heart at times. It is a means to help fight our spiritual battles and our physical battles as well, even though there are times that God, because He loves us and knows best, must say "no" to our prayers - like any father would do with his kids. 6) Prayer reminds us of our own weakness and our need to depend on God for strength, wisdom, and help, even when using our God given abilities to solve the problem. It keeps us humble as well. I could go on, but .... "Apart from maybe asking him why he created COVID-19 in the first place?" Is. 55:8-9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Unfortunately, we do not always know the reasons for what God does/allows. Ultimately we know that trials are meant for our growth and that nothing is meaningless. We know that God has power over the devil and can intervene at any time if He so chooses. But He has purposes for things that we just cannot know here and now. All suffering is ultimately the result of humanity's choice to sin and go their own way. It is not necessarily due to any one person's sin per se, but may just be a general judgment on humanity for our sin. It is simply what happens in a fallen world. A secondary function of suffering is that it helps us to see our weakness and need for God. If we could solve everything on our own, we would think we are the real cat's meow and think we can do just about anything. From time to time, God has to remind us that this is simply wishful thinking. Many things are beyond our control and we are not really the Masters of our fate like we like to think. tjguy

@ Seversky

Really? How do you know? Have you tried comparing the outcomes of procedures where you prayed beforehand with those where you didn’t?

Sure you were checking the amount of prayers during the Black Plague. With your Excel sheet even. Before and after. Seversky doing stats. :) How can you know the outcome could not have been worse without people praying? Two-fold maybe? You can not know it, but for the materialist believer assertions are free. Truthfreedom

@3 Seversky

People ignore overwhelming evidence all the time if it suits them. Look at believers

How cute. :) We agree then. The materialist jihad ignores massive amounts of evidence all the time. Materialism is false but your faith is rabid and unshakeable. Truthfreedom

So prayers are just for asking things of God? Really? What is it with atheists and strawmen? ET

Severski @ #3 Thank you for your response. To avoid a scatter gun approach I would like to address your final point. I did not say that God is a possible answer. Any thing is possible. Not everything is reasonable. I said that God is the most reasonable answer when you look at the evidence with no presuppositions. The Christian God is the most reasonable answer among various beliefs in the divine. If you start with a premise that God exists, you never can understand that God is real. Your response makes me feel that you start from the premise that God can not exist. If I am wrong please correct me. For clarification - Yes I believe in the Christian God. God is not pantheistic but encompasses all created reality while at the same time being totally beyond all created reality. An example, what we know as love, is but a mere shadow of something that is infinitely above it. The mystery of God is that He is transcendent to all created being while at the same time being totally immanent with every created being. GCS

These people who say like everything is an illusion, or reality is whatever your brain says, etc., I’m pretty sure they would feel differently if they found themselves accidentally stuck into a crevice like that hiker did a few years ago, and all they had on them was barbecue sauce and it was bear country. I’m pretty sure they would figure out in short order that the grizzly was not just in their mind. Jim Thibodeau

GCS @ 2

1 – God is real.

In other words, you are saying (the Christian) God exists?

Actually God is Reality itself

So you are arguing for panentheism?

We (and the rest of the universe) are the mere shadows.

The end of the bed I banged my knee into wasn't a shadow. COVID-19 may be very small but it isn't a shadow. I'm pretty sure the asteroid that took out the dinosaurs wasn't a shadow.

2 – Science studies (or should study) reality. But since it is only studying a shadow of Reality it can only give us a shadowy glimpse of Reality.

Science studies and tries to explain what we can observe. It can only work with the information it has at any given time. We know that the information available to science currently is incomplete but we have more information today than did Isaac Newton in his day. In the future, scientists will have more than we have now. So the world will be that much less shadowy and the shadows will continue to shrink.

3 – God wants us to choose Him.

How do you know? Has he spoken to you personally?

4 – Choice is not possible when faced with overwhelming real proof – like the proverbial 2 by 4.

Sure it is. People ignore overwhelming evidence all the time if it suits them. Look at believers

5 – Therefore God gives enough proof for us to see His existence – if we seek Him.

Why so coy? Why not just appear, say "Behold, I am your God" and vanish anyone who says different?

6 – The same amount of evidence can be ignored by those who wish to avoid Him.

That's right.

7 – Conclusion: do not look for “Proof”. Look at the evidence and ask what is the best explanation of the evidence. If you do not rule out God as the answer, He always becomes the most reasonable answer.

A possible answer is not necessarily the most plausible answer? Seversky

1 - God is real. Actually God is Reality itself. We (and the rest of the universe) are the mere shadows. 2 - Science studies (or should study) reality. But since it is only studying a shadow of Reality it can only give us a shadowy glimpse of Reality. 3 - God wants us to choose Him. 4 - Choice is not possible when faced with overwhelming real proof - like the proverbial 2 by 4. 5 - Therefore God gives enough proof for us to see His existence - if we seek Him. 6 - The same amount of evidence can be ignored by those who wish to avoid Him. 7 - Conclusion: do not look for "Proof". Look at the evidence and ask what is the best explanation of the evidence. If you do not rule out God as the answer, He always becomes the most reasonable answer. GCS

@

Why prayer is wise during a pandemic. Evolutionary biologist Jerry Coyne thinks that only fools would pray about Coronavirus. He is wrong and here is why. If God is real, then prayer is probably the first thing you want to do in a crisis. A plea to the Boss is a fine preamble to the grunt work of managing a crisis.

If your god is real then he already knew the pandemic was coming before it even hit. If your god is real then he already knows what you are going to need before you do. If your god is real then he already knows what you're going to ask him in your prayers. So tell me, what is the point of praying? Apart from maybe asking him why he created COVID-19 in the first place?

I’m a neurosurgeon, and I pray before each operation. It really helps.

Really? How do you know? Have you tried comparing the outcomes of procedures where you prayed beforehand with those where you didn't? Seversky