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Questions for Proponents of Methodological Naturalism

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Earlier I posted some questions for critics of methodological by Dr. Joshua Swamidass. I plan on writing a response to Dr. Swamidass’s criticisms and questions, but for the moment I will offer my own questions to the proponents of Methodological Naturalism (update – my answers to these questions are here and here).

I often get the feeling that “methodological naturalism” is often raised in modern times for the simple reason of excluding specific groups of people from science rather than being a real position on the philosophy of science. The reason I think this is that (a) it relies on a definition of “natural” that seems to either be never stated, (b) it is asserted against groups of people for which it is only tangentially related, and (c) it is only used to curtail infractions in a single direction. For instance, most creationism is actually methodologically naturalistic, or, if it is not, it is trivially easy to make it so (every description of the actions of the flood I’ve seen are naturalistic – none talk about miracles during the flood). Yet creationists are usually the group pointed to by methodological naturalists when they are making their case.

I would say that, although the questions below are immediately obvious to me as questions one should ask about methodological naturalism (it took me about 10 minutes to come up with them), I have never seen any proponent of methodological naturalism take them up. These seem to be basic, fundamental questions that need answering if methodological naturalism is so important to science. The fact that they are not seems to me to indicate that, at least for many, the point of methodological naturalism is not to have a well-founded philosophy of science, but just to be able to exclude certain groups you don’t like and pretend to be doing it on principle.

Here are the questions:

  1. In methodological naturalism, what exactly is meant by naturalism? How does one determine if a proposed cause is “naturalistic” or not? Some people say, “unobservable,” but if that means it can’t be physically seen it is no different than other parts of physics and chemistry. If that means that it has no effects in the current world, then that is a definition that no supernaturalist would agree with (I certainly think the human soul exhibits effects – i.e., humans would be different without a soul). Other people have tried “testability,” but that is merely the flip side of “observable”. Therefore, what would really count as a demarcation between a proposed cause as being “naturalistic” vs. “non-naturalistic”? If a set of criteria cannot be deduced, then wouldn’t that make “methodological naturalism” equivalent to “special pleading against explanations I don’t like”?
  2. Many of the things that were essential to naturalism in the 1600s were overturned by Newton, and many of the things that were essential to naturalism in the 1800s were overturned by Quantum Mechanics. If naturalism is such a fuzzy concept as to be continually overturned by new physics, why is it important?
  3. If humans have a supernatural component (i.e., a soul), then is it problematic for biologists to not be allowed to probe the parts of human behavior dependent on it, and/or require them to give wrong explanations for behavior (i.e., use a naturalistic explanation when one is not appropriate)?
  4. Is there a way to determine whether or not a phenomena is understandable via naturalism when it is first investigated? If not, what should a scientist do if they are investigating a cause but later discover that it is not naturalistic? Should they abandon their research? What would the appropriate move be?
  5. Doesn’t methodological naturalism mean that scientists who are philosophically naturalistic can study more types of phenomena than those who disagree philosophically, because of the types of causes they believe responsible? Is it reasonable to exclude groups of people from scientific discussions based on whether or not they agree with philosophical naturalism?
  6. If there is a disagreement among scientists as to whether or not a particular phenomena is naturalistic or non-naturalistic, what is the appropriate place for such scientists to have a discussion? Should the results of this discussion influence scientific practice? Should science journals heed the results of such discussions? Should science textbooks heed the results of such discussions? If not, what is the point of having such discussions at all?
  7. If two scientists (A and B) agree that phenomena X with description Y are the cause of an event, but A believes that the phenomena is non-naturalistic, and B believes that the phenomena is naturalistic, does that mean that scientist B can investigate it but scientist A cannot?
  8. If a phenomena that has been studied in science journals for years is later found to be non-naturalistic (by whatever definition given), should that phenomena cease to be covered by the science journals? Should the prior papers be retracted?
  9. If a phenomena is currently under discussion in a philosophy journal as to whether or not the phenomena is naturalistic, what should the status of scientific research be? Should scientists stop doing research until a result is found by the philosophy journals? Should the science journals feel bound to the decision of the philosophy journals? If so, which ones would hold the definitive answers? If not, what would the point of methodological naturalism be except to enforce philosophical naturalism?
  10. The Big Bang was founded by a Priest who, in his unpublished work, said that it confirmed the Genesis account of creation. Today, many people (including some who do research on it) continue to hold to this idea, and say that the Big Bang shows that the universe has a supernatural origin. Does that mean that the Big Bang theory should be removed from science? Why or why not? How do those criteria affect other theories that involve divine origins?
  11. In many other academic areas with boundaries, the boundaries are informative rather than strict. I.e., if my studies are in Renaissance art, it would certainly be problematic if I spent my entire time talking about Hellenistic art or automobile designs. However, no one would object at all for including some ideas in a Renaissance art journal on how ideas from Hellenistic art studies can be used in Renaissance art studies, or how Renaissance art can influence modern automobile designs. However, the strict methodological naturalism being promoted is not simply informative, but normative, which actively prevents this type of crossover knowledge. Why are the sciences the only area where crossover knowledge is not important?
  12. Experience is not the same as naturalism. We have experience of the supernatural just in talking with other people (as consciousness and creativity – two aspects of humanity – are supernatural, not natural). Thus, one could ground the supernatural in experience just like the natural. Therefore, could one not use such experience scientifically as well?

Anyway, if you are a methodological naturalist, I would love to hear your answers to these questions.

Comments
johnnyb 6, "If there is a disagreement among scientists as to whether or not a particular phenomena is naturalistic or non-naturalistic, what is the appropriate place for such scientists to have a discussion?" A phenomena is just what you see (maybe not with your eyes, maybe with a microscope or telescope or gieger counter). Natural or supernatural is the cause. Even if something really is a miracle, scientists always keep trying to show that the miracle is a superstition, like a rain god causing the rain to fall or wind god causing the wind to blow. Because they did away with lots of old superstitions. Now they think that even God is a superstition. Except Christian scientists think there really are miracles. But they have to show miracles really don't happen very much. Just every now and then when God has special relationship with his people. Maybe when people are healed by prayer and doctors can't explain how.Erasmus Wiffball
August 21, 2016
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We can’t actually observe consciousness or the creation of creative ideas within consciousness.
So what? It isn't necessary to observe the creation of an idea in order to draw a scientific inference of its existence. SETI doesn't have to observe ET sending a signal to know that a signal has been sent.StephenB
August 21, 2016
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johnyb number 5 "Doesn’t methodological naturalism mean that scientists who are philosophically naturalistic can study more types of phenomena than those who disagree philosophically, because of the types of causes they believe responsible? Is it reasonable to exclude groups of people from scientific discussions based on whether or not they agree with philosophical naturalism?" A phenonmena is what you can see. A scientist can study anything he can see. (Don't jump on me for not saying she.) If a phenomena has an invisible cause then the scientist will see the phenomena anyway. But he wont see that the true cause is not a phenomena because he thinks invisible causes are a superstition. He lumps God in with the wind god and the river god and the sea god and all that.Erasmus Wiffball
August 21, 2016
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johnnyb number 4 "Is there a way to determine whether or not a phenomena is understandable via naturalism when it is first investigated? If not, what should a scientist do if they are investigating a cause but later discover that it is not naturalistic? Should they abandon their research? What would the appropriate move be?" Like I said, naturalists don't control science. Scientists don't think they really understand what they see unless they connect it to other things they can see. But you can't see the supernatural God. They think that because people use to have a lot of superstitions about invisible stuff causing stuff they could see, and science got rid of the supersitions, then everything invisible causing stuff is just superstitious. the dali lama thinks that God is just a superstition. So the UN makes us sink to the lowest level, and hide the Truth. Just so we don't offend anybody AT ALL in the World. No matter how piddly their country.Erasmus Wiffball
August 21, 2016
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johnyb said "If humans have a supernatural component (i.e., a soul), then is it problematic for biologists to not be allowed to probe the parts of human behavior dependent on it, and/or require them to give wrong explanations for behavior (i.e., use a naturalistic explanation when one is not appropriate)? I think the problem is we let the United Nations take control of science. Now science is forced to work the same in America as they would do it in Tibet even though they they don't do it in Tibet. Almost all the science papers in the world are written by Americans. But the dali lama is an atheist. So it is politically incorrect to say that God is the cause, no matter if 51 or more percent of Americans know that God is the cause. Dr. Axe is right. God made us to see design. You have to harden your heart to not see design. Most Americans see design. But they don't see design in Tibet because then they would see God.Erasmus Wiffball
August 21, 2016
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johnnyb said: "Many of the things that were essential to naturalism in the 1600s were overturned by Newton, and many of the things that were essential to naturalism in the 1800s were overturned by Quantum Mechanics. If naturalism is such a fuzzy concept as to be continually overturned by new physics, why is it important?" Maybe because naturalism does not tell science what to do? Instead science tells naturalists what nature is? Just an idea.Erasmus Wiffball
August 21, 2016
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johnnyb said, "In methodological naturalism, what exactly is meant by naturalism?" I'm sure they make up naturalism as they go. Naturalists change what they mean when science has new developments. They do not stick to their guns. Scientists discover new stuff, like conservation of energy in the 1800s, and naturalists change what their saying.Erasmus Wiffball
August 21, 2016
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A philosopher says he came up with the term methodological naturalism in 1983. I would not bet on it, because he is bound to be an atheist (no objective moral reason not to tell lies and help his carreer). His name is Paul de Vries. About half of the article on naturalism in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is about methodological naturalism. I would not bother reading it though. You can tell right off the author is an atheist. Paul Nelson wrote about methodological naturalism at Evolution News and Views about 2 years ago. He is a good solid YEC. So I trust what he says. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/methodological_1089971.html They used to have a lot about methodological naturalism at the American Scientific Affiliation. I do not believe they are all real Christians though. So watch out. BioLogos says a lot about methodological naturalism. But I think they are all Democrats, like Frances Collins. Might as well be Muslims like Obama.Erasmus Wiffball
August 21, 2016
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to johnnyb: I'll note that I watched and responded to #6 when you first posted it. I later said I would be interested in a response from you, but unfortunately never got one.jdk
August 21, 2016
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Just as an FYI - some of you might take a moment to watch the videos that we have up from the AM-Nat conference. The playlist for the videos is here (note - I have not yet gotten all of the videos edited/uploaded yet). There are videos on modeling non-naturalistic processes, how non-naturalism has helped science in the past, how non-naturalism can aid in machine learning, and how to manage the material/non-material divide in psychology. Anyway, I suggest anyone interested in the subject give the videos a watch.johnnyb
August 21, 2016
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My comment had nothing to do with materialism - what I am saying here is true even for theists..We can't actually observe consciousness or the creation of creative ideas within consciousness. We can observe behavior and products that we deem creative, but we can't observe anyone's consciousness or ideas other than our own.jdk
August 21, 2016
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Also, consciousness and creativity (in the sense of novel ideas) can’t be studied scientifically because there is no common way to observe them: we are each of us the sole observer of our consciousness.
On the contrary. We can easily observe the effects of a creative act and identify it as a cause. Any SETI signal that qualifies as a communicative act also qualifies a creative act. Further, nature cannot produce a creative act in an art form. There is no logical pathway from matter in motion to Mozart's fifth symphony--nothing in the cause could possibly produce the effect. Thus, no rational person can believe in materialism.StephenB
August 21, 2016
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Also, consciousness and creativity (in the sense of novel ideas) can't be studied scientifically because there is no common way to observe them: we are each of us the sole observer of our consciousness. We can study observable behavior, including our descriptions of our consciousness, and we can study physiological phenomena that appear to be correlated with consciousness, but can't scientifically study consciousness itself.jdk
August 21, 2016
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If I am giving a scientific report, then it will not explicitly mention God or anything supernatural. It will just report on what can be observed and what can be found by others who repeat the investigation. That does not mean that I am excluding God or the supernatural. Some might see them as implicit, though that will vary from person to person. I won't explicitly mention them and I won't explicitly exclude them. I'm not sure that has anything to do with methodoligical naturalism. It just has to do with good scientific practice. As for what is meant by "methodological naturalism"? I'm really not sure. Everybody who discusses it seems to be hopelessly vague. That's one of the reasons that I don't bother with it.Neil Rickert
August 21, 2016
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johnny writes,
We have experience of the supernatural just in talking with other people (as consciousness and creativity – two aspects of humanity – are supernatural, not natural).
That's a metaphysical belief that not everyone agrees with.jdk
August 21, 2016
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