Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The New ‘Two Cultures’ Problem: Theological Illiteracy of the Atheological

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In 1959, the physicist-novelist-UK science policy advisor CP Snow gave his famous Rede Lecture at Cambridge, where he canonized ‘the two cultures’ , a long-standing and — to his mind at least — increasing distinction between the mindsets of those trained in the ‘arts’ (i.e. humanities, social sciences) and the ‘sciences’ (i.e. natural sciences, engineering). Even back then, and certainly more so now, there was another ‘culture’ that was increasingly set adrift from the rest of academic knowledge — theology.  For example, it would be interesting to learn whether most academics believe that theology constitutes a body of knowledge — and, for that matter, whether most theologians themselves believe that their knowledge applies to more than just fellow believers.  After all, most biologists believe that Darwinism is true even though most people in general — and perhaps even in the academy — don’t seem to share that belief.

I raise this point because of a remarkable piece that appears in this week’s Chronicle of Higher Education, the weekly newspaper of American academia. The piece is called ‘Monotheism was a Civilizational Advance Because _______’ and it’s by David Barash, an evolutionary psychologist at the University of Washington who has a regular column in their ‘Brainstorm’ section. (Well, at least only the brain is credited here — rather than the entire mind…) I suppose the piece is meant to be a cute way of showing that what kids learn in school about the formative role of the Abrahamic religions in world culture is an old wives’ tale.  Thankfully, a couple of the respondents pick up on the science-religion link that Barash appears to have forgotten (or never to have learned), but the overall display is not edifying.

What always strikes me about these Darwinian dissings of religion — especially theology — is that theologians rarely fight their corner or, if they enter the fray, they end up conceding most of the relevant ground and aim for a NOMA-style settlement. (Whatever one makes of the details of his own theology, William Lane Craig is a very honorable exception to this tendency.) I sometimes wonder whether theologians are simply ashamed to defend their own knowledge base, as if they half-believe what their opponents think of them.

I say all this because ID has a tricky relationship with theology.  Many people in both the ID and anti-ID camps seem to think that admitting any theological support for ID is tantamount to denying its scientific merit.  Again, this suggests that such people have their doubts about theology as a body of knowledge. Yet, it is equally true that ID has had a long and productive relationship with theology — indeed, with ‘natural theology’, which Craig has done much to revive in recent years, especially with this book, and that Darwinists in particular have an elective affinity with an atheistic metaphysics.

When these background beliefs are put on the table, even though the discussion can soon become anxious and heated, it also becomes clearer why both sides assign different weights to different sorts of evidence. In the end, appeals to evidence can settle arguments only if the two sides agree to weight them in roughly the same way.  And clearly that’s not happening in the current state of the debate.

Comments
markf: With all due respect, I'd rather make a claim based on partial evidence (which, in the end, all evidence is) and then be shown wrong than to wait until some magic threshhold of evidence has been crossed before asserting anything. Science was born of faith, not of scepticism. But it is a faith that can be tested and shown to be false. That's the whole point of Popper's 'conjectures and refutations', which I stand by. I don't generally require students to have an ideal evidence base before opening their mouths in class. And I certainly don't demand that of colleagues!Steve Fuller
January 4, 2011
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Great to see tjm’s link to Creation Safaris. This is a wonderful service/resource for Christians looking for a little respite from the daily evolutionary onslaught and the arrogance of Big Science. As to why theologians shy away from science—no mystery there. Modern science is so specialized and abstruse that even scientists have a hard time understanding each other. Theologians could read Galileo and Bacon and Newton fairly easily. In comparison, modern science is like a foreign language. In any case, ID is the bomb. Not much is needed to tip the balance sheet away from materialism. Just give people the freedom to see what was always there—the simple fact of design in nature. They won’t believe the unbelievable.allanius
January 4, 2011
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Craig's books in only £104, don't know how that translates into dollars, but it will be more. Augustine's maxim 'if you will not believe you will not understand' was taken up by Polanyi and Torrance (Hume also believed this). Alister McGrath seeks to bring some Augustinian beliefs into a renewed natural theology as part of his fine tuning arguments, although he remains a committed TEist / Darwinist. McGrath points out that Karl Barth believed natural theology was part of a pagan religion (a sort of German nature worship) that would not lead to Christianity, although Torrance believed NT could be rescued for Christianity by seeing it in the context of divine revelation.Steno
January 4, 2011
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#20 Steve Give me some poor quality evidence then - all I ask is that it apply to reasonable proportion of the world's population and be relevant to the question. Would you not ask as much of your students? You are right that it is extremely difficult to know what the world's population believes about Darwinism. Would you not agree that, given this, the reasonable response is "I don't know"?markf
January 4, 2011
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markf: I guess you will have to live with your scepticism until the quality of survey research improves. I never said that the quality was great. But if you secretly believe that most people really do believe in Darwinism, then I suggest you tell scientists that they have nothing to worry about. In any case, I doubt if their grasp of what people 'really' think about such matters is much better than mine. The fact that more people nowadays admit to non-Darwinian views probably has little to do with some mass conversion hysteria; rather, people are simply becoming bolder in saying what they think about particular scientific views. In any case, I would certainly invite you to design some better surveys that get at what you think the salient issues are. And yes, do approach UNESCO for a grant to sample the world's population....Steve Fuller
January 4, 2011
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But on this blog I talked about one such survey last year that Theos, UK theistic evolution think-tank, conducted. Basically it showed that about as many people believed in ‘atheistic evolution’ as in young earth creationism. ID was the big — and perhaps surprising — winner in the survey.
Do you mean this survey? from the executiver summary:
People were asked to choose between four possible positions as described in the questionnaire (see pages 26-27): Young Earth Creationism (YEC), Intelligent Design (ID), Theistic Evolution (TE) and Atheistic Evolution (AE). When asked which position they considered most likely, 17% chose the YEC position,11% chose ID, 28% chose TE and 37% chose AE.
They then go on to say that the answers to the questions were often contradictory, and ended up classifying about half of the sample into these 4 groups: YEC: 11% ID: 8% TE: 18% AE: 18% (the remaining 45% couldn't be classified)Heinrich
January 4, 2011
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#16 Steve equinoxe kindly linked to the Theos report in comment #6 above. You have highlighted the support for ID but the overall result is very confusing. For example, around two thirds of the sample could be described as “believing in evolution”. Just over a third of respondents (37%) agreed that “humans evolved by a process of evolution which removes any need for God”, and just under a third (28%) that “humans evolved by a process of evolution which can be seen as part of God’s plan" But in any case a UK only survey is barely relevant to an assessment of what most people think. The attitude of scientists is I think a response to the growth in creationism, not to the absolute numbers worldwide. I hate burdens of proof arguments - but this seems particularly strange. You asserted that most people do not believe in Darwinism. Surely you don't claim that the burden of proof is on others to prove you wrong? You say there is plenty of evidence that most people don't believe in Darwinism. I have to say I am sceptical. Maybe you could point us to some of it? I would only ask that any such evidence must take into account the majority of the world's population.markf
January 4, 2011
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Steve Fuller, Are you aware of James Lennox's views about how Darwinism is inherently teleological (if wedded to 'randomness')? And if so, do you have any opinion of such?nullasalus
January 4, 2011
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tjm: First of all, you're right about the creationists taking their theology seriously as a body of knowledge that carries evidentiary weight in discussions about the nature of life. I have no problem with this. I am wondering why other theologians don't act similarly. On 'common descent', that concept has come to acquire a very specific meaning in the Darwin debates. However, it's clear from correspondence that Darwin had with a philologist Schleicher after Origin was published that he saw the common descent of all organisms from the primordial soup as analogous to the common descent of all humans from Adam. I grant you that this may be a rather exotic way of reading the Bible, but then you've got to wonder why did Darwin continue to hold on to the idea that life had a single origin from which everything else descended? Why couldn't life have multiple origins, as, say, Lamarck thought? It seems to me that Darwin was still wedded to 'first cause' style natural theology in that respect.Steve Fuller
January 4, 2011
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markf: Actually there's plenty of evidence that most people -- if we mean ordinary people -- don't believe Darwinism is true. Whether the evidence is any good again goes back to the design of the surveys involved. But on this blog I talked about one such survey last year that Theos, UK theistic evolution think-tank, conducted. Basically it showed that about as many people believed in 'atheistic evolution' as in young earth creationism. ID was the big -- and perhaps surprising -- winner in the survey. (51% assented to the basic ID proposition in the survey.) In any case, scientists themselves certainly think that most people don't believe in Darwinism. Otherwise, they would treat the public with a bit more respect and not be so paranoid when dealing with critics and opponents. After all, most surveys also say that while people are critical of this or that view in science, most people are quite pro-science in general. I would have thought that the burden of proof goes the other way: Is there evidence that most ordinary people DO believe in Darwinism?Steve Fuller
January 4, 2011
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t I think it’s important to realize the PR coup that Darwinists have scored in claiming to speak for all ‘evolutionists’, since most people who believe in evolution don’t quite realize what makes Darwin’s view so controversial. It doesn’t have to do with common descent (which after all is itself a creationist idea) but his denial that we are trying to get back to God.
1. Where in his publications does Darwin "den[y] that we are trying to get back to God"? 2. Why is Darwin's theological view at all relevant to his scientific views? 3. Why are there a lot of people who are able to reconcile evolutionary biology with a belief in a God? 4. Who do you mean when you refer to "Darwinists"?Heinrich
January 4, 2011
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#7 Steve - an interesting point about PR coups. But can you just confirm that you have no reference or data to back up your assertion that most people do not believe that Darwinism is true? Thanks Markmarkf
January 3, 2011
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One must first answer the question, How can we know anything? In other words, epistemology is senior to all other inquiries.
And how, precisely, can you know that that is the first question to answer? The idea that epistemology is senior to all other inquiries is the poppycock that has caused Western philosophy to run aground. Edward Feser makes a very strong case for this thesis in The Last Superstition. Putting epistemology ahead of ontology puts one directly on the path to sophistry.Matteo
January 3, 2011
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Bravo tjm! Dr. Fuller this is what you should have expected by opening this can of worms. :D You might be eventually forced to admit that creationists may not be "extremists" after all. They may in fact be doing exactly as you suggest.tragic mishap
January 3, 2011
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Sorry for the long posts. Dr. Fuller, you said this: "It doesn’t have to do with common descent (which after all is itself a creationist idea) but his denial that we are trying to get back to God." I'm not following you here. How is "common descent" a creationist idea? I guess that depends on your use of the word "creationist" as I understand that some IDers believe in common descent, but I do not believe that is a biblically defensible position. My understanding of the word creationist is a person who believes the Genesis account in a literal fashion. Genesis 1 makes it clear that "common descent" is not a biblical teaching as God created different things on different days. And he created Adam directly from the dust of the ground and Eve from Adam. Jesus taught that Adam and Eve were created at "the beginning of creation" and not billions of years later through evolution. I think your use of the word creationist here is confusing. Just my opinion. By the way, I would say that theologians who hold to the truth of Genesis 1 are doing exactly what you say they should do - take a stand for their area of knowledge. They are not taking a stand against science, but they are opposing the ideas and conclusions of people who refuse God's truth. You and I may disagree about the age of the earth, but the idea that the earth is 4.6 billion years old is not a proven fact. It is widely accepted to be true, but there are also good reasons to believe the earth is young. Science cannot prove the age of the earth. Evolutionary and naturalistic theories of the earth’s creation are based on uniformitarian assumptions that cannot be proven, but are simply accepted. Herein lies the problem with "scientific knowledge". If Christians also accept these assumptions, it is not surprising they too come to the conclusion that the earth is old. If Christianns reject a world-wide flood of Genesis, then an old age of the earth becomes essential - a given - to explain the rock layers and fossils. Now, when it comes to the Bible, we know that the Bible is true. We accept that apriori. Jesus made a clear statement to that effect. What is truth? Jesus said "Thy word is truth." And of course, he also said "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." Scientific knowledge though, is ever changing and is as sure and dependable as God's revelation in my opinion. Again, what began as a short post ballooned into this. Sorry!tjm
January 3, 2011
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A further quote from this website: http://creationsafaris.com/crev200708.htm#20070813a "The Christian world view is also the precondition for intelligibility in science. Both Greg Bahnsen and J. P. Moreland (see his book Christianity and the Nature of Science) have argued this case cogently that one must accept Christian presuppositions before one can even do science. To do science, you must defend the correspondence theory of truth, be able to account for a world of natural law, defend the validity of inductive inference and deductive proof, accept the reality of the mind, believe in the universal applicability of the laws of logic, and uphold universal standards of morality. All these functions come included in the Christian world view package. They are indefensible in any other world view. Christianity, then, is a precondition for the intelligibility of science and for reason itself. This does not mean that non-Christians cannot do science or use reason, because clearly they do; it means that they cannot account for the validity of science from within their own world view. Whether they are aware of it or not, they plagiarize Christian assumptions whenever they reason inductively or deductively about the world. (This, Christians know, is because they retain the image of God impressed on their souls.) The argument that a materialist, as a collection of particles and forces, can do science without God has no more power than plugging an extension cord into itself.... For the power to flow, science has to be plugged into a socket named Christian Presuppositions. We have minds that can reason about objective reality because we have an all-knowing, rational, all-wise God who imbued some of that rationality into us. He is the completion to our incompleteness." This is a big part of the reason that science developed in the Western world. Science has Christianity to thank for it's very existence and now it tries to exclude it, not realizing that in doing so, it destroys the very foundations of science itself. Without the Christian worldview, there is nothing for science to stand on. When one really examines the foundation of science or the philosophy of science, we see how bankrupt it really is apart from God. There is no good reason to accept it's conclusions as true or reliable.tjm
January 3, 2011
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Determining something to be true is almost an impossible task, even for a scientist. From the NCSE website: "All scientific conclusions are tentative." How many long held scientific truths/facts were overturned this year?! Today's knowledge often becomes tomorrows discarded theories. So how can we really believe that "today's knowledge" really is true?! Science can never determine truth. It is based on a number of unprovable assumptions and seems to work fairly well. Doing experiments and making observations is great, but the problem comes when scientists interpret their findings usually through their unprovable darwinian materialistic worldview. That is why science is not reliable. Donald Prothero says this: “Science is not about finding final truth, only about testing and refining better and better hypotheses so these hypotheses approach what we think is true about the world.” But I would like him to tell us how he defines truth. How would he even know when he has found it? In other words, what constitutes testing and refining if there is no standard of truth by which one can measure progress? How does a scientist determine whether what he/she thinks is true about the world corresponds to what is really true about the world? ie - Darwinian, materialistic worldview. I copied the next few lines from this site: http://creationsafaris.com/crev200708.htm#20070813a Scientists cannot escape philosophy. They are embedded within it, whether they like it or not. To pretend philosophy has no bearing on their work is itself a philosophy. The question is not whether a scientist practices philosophy, but how well he or she does it. These two did not do it very well. Both appealed to emotion and flights of fancy to defend objectivism and materialism. Christians are objectivists, but are the only ones who have a warrant for it. Christian objectivism is founded in the eternal, unchangeable Creator. That “anchor on the infinite” is what gives us confidence in objective reality. A materialist cannot anchor his thoughts on anything universal, necessary, or certain; he is trapped in his cage of limited perceptions. He cannot prove that his sensations and perceptions pertain to anything that is “out there” in the world (the correspondence theory of truth). The Christian has an infinite-personal God that gives us the completeness to our human incompleteness. So Fuller is right in saying that theologians need to take a stand for their knowledge!tjm
January 3, 2011
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I myself wonder whether theology can qualify as knowledge (other than as an historical record of what theologians have thought on the subject). One could equally well wonder whether philosophy, aside from history of philosophy, qualifies as knowledge. If a characteristic of knowledge is that it reflects or illuminates truth, how can we know whether either discipline does that? In order to answer such questions (or even the question of whether science provides us with knowledge), one must first answer the question, How can we know anything? In other words, epistemology is senior to all other inquiries. Most people, in my experience, never really grapple with that question. They simply assume that what they have been taught to believe on the subject is true, often without even raising the issue to the level of conscious awareness.Bruce David
January 3, 2011
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Thanks, Steve.RkBall
January 3, 2011
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markf: you're right about Ecklund's book, but I think it's important to realize the PR coup that Darwinists have scored in claiming to speak for all 'evolutionists', since most people who believe in evolution don't quite realize what makes Darwin's view so controversial. It doesn't have to do with common descent (which after all is itself a creationist idea) but his denial that we are trying to get back to God. For example, if you read Linnaeus, it's clear that he doesn't see much difference between us and the apes in terms of physical characteristics. Rather he believed that God somehow intervened to give us souls. I'm by no means saying that Linnaeus is the final word, but it's clear that once we acknowledge our genetic relationship to animals, we need to figure out how we came to be beings who are related more importantly to God than to other animals. My own view is that the answer is not to be found in a particular configuration of genes we have yet to discover. In fact, that may be the wrong level of organization to think about the issue.Steve Fuller
January 3, 2011
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markf, This was a recent UK survey. 51% of UK population are "sceptical of evolution". https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/51-of-uk-population-sceptical-of-evolution-theos-report/ I just recall the post. I don't know whether it is helpful to the discussion.equinoxe
January 3, 2011
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This may be of interest as a resource: MP3 Religious Debates, Christian Apologetics Talks, Catholic EWTN http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/audio.htm here is William Lane Craig on Unbelievable radio: http://www.rfmedia.org/RF_audio_video/Other_clips/Unbelievable-Radio-Interview/Unbelievable-Interview-with-Dr-Craig.mp3bornagain77
January 3, 2011
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#3 Steve I am sorry - I accidentally omitted the link. When I wrote "elsewhere" I mean't to link to a current debate on this forum. I am acutely aware of the methodological problems in assessing peoples beliefs on almost anything. Perhaps you can indicate a reference that includes evidence that most people do not believe that Darwinism is true? (By "most people" I mean most people, not the population of the USA). Elaine Eckland's book seems to be only about US Scientists.markf
January 3, 2011
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markf: Of course, it's being discussed elsewhere. It's being discussed all the time. The problem is that most of the research trying to make sense of people's beliefs about either religion or science tends to ask the wrong sorts of questions. 'Religion' is usually operationalised as 'churchgoing' and to ask whether people believe in 'evolution' is to allow un-Darwinian answers to count (e.g. that evolution is directed or even progressive). So you often end up getting an under-representation of people's religiosity and over-representation of their beliefs about evolution. This is why any survey on these matters always needs to be followed up with interviews to see what people really think. A recent book that's sensitive to these methodological problems is Elaine Eckland, 'Science vs. Religion: What Scientists Really Think' (Oxford 2010).Steve Fuller
January 3, 2011
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"In 1815 a poet, a scientist and a painter spoke the same language - I give many instances - but by 1830 it was increasingly difficult for them to understand each other; the sad bifurcation into two cultures was beginning." Paul Johnson, The Birth of the Modern: World Society 1815-1830 "The modern world is full of the old Christian virtues gone mad. The virtues have gone mad because they have been isolated from each other and are wandering alone. Thus some scientists care for truth; and their truth is pitiless. Thus some humanitarians only care for pity; and their pity (I am sorry to say) is often untruthful." G. K. Chesterton, Orthodoxytragic mishap
January 3, 2011
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"though most people in general — and perhaps even in the academy — don’t seem to share that belief." It just so happens this is being discussed elsewhere. What is your evidence? I haven't seen any yet.markf
January 3, 2011
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