What is “dualism” and why is it controversial?

_{Denyse O'Leary

August 19, 2018

Intelligent Design, Mind, Naturalism, Philosophy}

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Most people think we are more than just live bodies but what is the “more”? Frank Turek explains,

2. Varieties of Dualism: Ontology

2.1 Predicate dualism

2.2 Property Dualism

2.3 Substance Dualism

3. Varieties of Dualism: Interaction

3.1 Interactionism

3.2 Epiphenomenalism

3.3 Parallelism

(Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy) More.

If you don’t think you are 99.44% chimpanzee nd that consciousness is an illusion, you might want to consider what sort of dualism you are.

Hat tip: Ken Francis

See also: Alternatives to dualism: Post-modern science: The illusion of consciousness sees through itself

and

From Scientific American: “we may all be alters—dissociated personalities— of universal consciousness.”

Comments

jdk @11: Perhaps you’re right about the material world. Here’s a strong evidence that supports your opinion: Material Girl Song by Madonna Some boys kiss me Some boys hug me I think they're ok If they don't give me proper credit I just walk away They can beg and they can plead But they can't see the light (that's right) 'Cause the boy with the cold hard cash Is always Mister Right 'Cause we are living in a material world And I am a material girl You know that we are living in a material world And I am a material girl Some boys romance Some boys slow dance That's all right with me If they can't raise my interest then I Have to let them be Some boys try and some boys lie but I don't let them play (no way) Only boys who save their pennies Make my rainy day 'Cause we're living in a material world And I am a material girl You know that we are living in a material world And I am a material girl Living in a material world And I am a material girl You know that we are living in a material world And I am a material girl Living in a material world (material) Living in a material world Living in a material world (material) Living in a material world Boys may come and boys may go And that's all right you see Experience has made me rich And now they're after me 'Cause everybody's living in a material world And I am a material girl You know that we are living in a material world And I am a material girl Living in a material world And I am a material girl You know that we are living in a material world And I am a material girl A material, a material, a material, a material world Living in a material world (material) Living in a material world Living in a material world (material) Living in a material world Living in a material world (material) Living in a material world Living in a material world (material) Living in a material Songwriters: PETER BROWN,ROBERT RANS © EMI Music Publishingjawa_{August 19, 2018
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jawa, those were my mistakes. I write hurriedly, and don't proofread well, sometimes.jdk_{August 19, 2018
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jdk @11: Beware of the tricky editor in this website. It can mess up your text. In the first two paragraphs we read: “interesting” instead of “interested” “breath” instead of “breathe” “know” instead of “known” Buddy, the whole body is material. Our spiritual souls reside in our material bodies under the 4D conditions we’re in. We interact with this world through our material bodies. If you don’t like it, submit your complaint to our Creatot. BTW, your breathing illustration reminded me of this old British song: Breathe Pink Floyd Breathe, breathe in the air Don't be afraid to care Leave but don't leave me Look around and choose your own ground For long you live and high you fly And smiles you'll give and tears you cry And all you touch and all you see Is all your life will ever be Run rabbit run Dig that hole,forget the sun And when at last the work is done Don't sit down it's time to start another one For long you live and high you fly But only if you ride the tide And balanced on the biggest wave You race towards an early gravejawa_{August 19, 2018
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I'm not discussing how things came to be. I'm interesting in how you understand how things happen now that they are as they are. So, some questions. Let's take a fundamental physical process: when you breath in air, oxygen is taken in and carbon dioxide is given out. The process by how this happens is fairly well know. Is there an immaterial aspect to this process? What is the immaterial process doing? Now, let's take an inorganic example: Here's an example of electrolysis:
The key process of electrolysis is the interchange of atoms and ions by the removal or addition of electrons from the external circuit. The desired products of electrolysis are often in a different physical state from the electrolyte and can be removed by some physical processes. For example, in the electrolysis of brine to produce hydrogen and chlorine, the products are gaseous. These gaseous products bubble from the electrolyte and are collected.[3] 2 NaCl + 2 H2O ? 2 NaOH + H2 + Cl2
This is a purely chemical process. Does it have an immaterial aspect, or is the immaterial aspect only a part of living things? What do you think?jdk_{August 19, 2018
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jdk:
You believe in a dualism whereby the inert physical body is directed by an immaterial aspect that controls the physical processes in the body.
Seeing that the body isn't reducible to matter, energy and what emerges from their interactions, it is a given there is an immaterial aspect. And it just so happens that information, which is neither matter nor energy, fits the void and solves the problem. We even have first hand experience with such things, ie immaterial information directing operations of a physical system. Or do you have any evidence that living organisms are reducible to matter, energy and what emerges from their interactions? A Nobel Prize awaits the person who could demonstrate such a thing- that and more I'm sure. Any evidence that nature can produce a code along with the physical means of carrying it out? We exist, Jack, how do you think that came to be?ET_{August 19, 2018
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I see. You believe in a dualism whereby the inert physical body is directed by an immaterial aspect that controls the physical processes in the body. That's interesting.jdk_{August 19, 2018
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jdk:
Was the growth of my child not an example of nature producing a brain?
No, nature didn't produce it. It was produced as a result of immaterial information which directed the development to fulfill is pre-ordained destination. Saying nature did it would be question-begging as even the alleged theory of evolution has to be given starting populations of living organisms. Heck nature can't even produce eukaryotes from those given starting populations. How the heck can it produce brains?ET_{August 19, 2018
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In reply to DD's comment that we know of "7.6 billion examples of minds that are associated with physical brains, and precisely zero examples of minds that are not associated with physical brains.", UD said, re 2:
I can point to roughly 7.6 billion examples of intelligence that can establish encoded memory systems, and precisely zero examples of such systems arising without intelligence.
Assuming we accept as established with some certainty that human beings, and their minds, are the result of intelligence in some way, it doesn't necessarily follow that dualism is true. It may very well be that that a unitary universe exists which the designing intelligence created so as to have consciousness and its emergence in human beings complementarily coexist with what manifests as the physical world as two parts of a larger underlying whole. That is, consciousness and physical may both be products of one underlying reality, not two separate parts of reality. We just don't know. The existence of consciousness does not necessarily imply dualism. re 5, JAD responded to DD's comment by writing,
Therefore, consciousness and mind are just illusions.
I don't think that follows, as explained a bit in my reply to UD in the paragraphs above. Just because consciousness is real doesn't mean that it has a fundamentally different nature or source than physical reality. As has been discussed at some length lately, given that reality at the quantum level is nothing like the physical world as it appears to us at the sensory macroscopic level, it's a reasonable possibility, I think, that consciousness arises from the same foundation of reality as the physical world does, and concomitantly coexists with the material world, as opposed to having a ontological nature that could be separated from physical reality. Of course, I nor anyone else knows whether this is true or not at this time, and we maybe never will, but, once again, I think that the existence of consciousness does not necessarily imply that dualism is true. re 6: ET writes to DD,
Well you can’t show any examples of nature producing physical brains. And you cannot show that physical brains arose via purely physical processes.
Recently my daughter was pregnant, and gave birth to a delightful young child who clearly has a brain and is conscious (or at least I know that as much as I know anyone else is conscious.) Was the growth of my child not an example of nature producing a brain?jdk_{August 19, 2018
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Deputy Dog:
I can point to roughly 7.6 billion examples of minds that are associated with physical brains,
Well you can't show any examples of nature producing physical brains. And you cannot show that physical brains arose via purely physical processes. In other words you have nothing to account for the existence of physical brains.ET_{August 19, 2018
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“I can point to roughly 7.6 billion examples of minds that are associated with physical brains, and precisely zero examples of minds that are not associated with physical brains.” Therefore, consciousness and mind are just illusions.john_a_designer_{August 19, 2018
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I never mentioned evolution. Evolution requires measurement; and (in case were not aware) dynamics cannot explain the measurement function. Only intelligence can.Upright BiPed_{August 19, 2018
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#2 The subject is dualism, not evolution.Deputy Dog_{August 19, 2018
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#1 I can point to roughly 7.6 billion examples of intelligence that can establish encoded memory systems, and precisely zero examples of such systems arising without intelligence. From a Bayesian perspective, that makes for an extremely small likelihood that a non-intelligent origin of such systems could be true.Upright BiPed_{August 19, 2018
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I can point to roughly 7.6 billion examples of minds that are associated with physical brains, and precisely zero examples of minds that are not associated with physical brains. From a Bayesian perspective, that makes for an extremely small likelihood that dualism could be true.Deputy Dog_{August 19, 2018
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