Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

When science is useless: on the lack of scientific demonstration for unguided nature

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

“Unguided natural processes.” If you follow Intelligent Design at all – or even just follow the yammerings of the crazier Gnu atheists – you’ve probably come across that term, or something like it in the past: the claim or idea that such and such natural processes occur utterly apart from any plan or direction. Behe talks about how his work and arguments establish that something other than “unguided natural processes” would have to have been at work to explain what we see in nature, at least based on the information we have currently. Dembski says similar, with some important caveats. On the other side of the discussion, Jerry Coyne and others insist that modern evolutionary theory is wed to the idea that the processes at work in evolutionary theory are utterly unguided and unintended. You’d likely see similar when it comes to cosmology, physics, and other scientific fields.

But even if they disagree about the power of “unguided natural processes”, all of them seem united in the agreement that at least some processes in nature can be scientifically labeled as such – so it’s fair to say they’d agree that Lenski’s lab documents the outcomes of unguided natural processes.

Which puts me in a bind, since I think each and every one of them are wrong. In fact, I think they are trivially wrong, and this post is going to be sufficient to demonstrate as much to most reasonable people.

I want to be clear exactly what I’m disputing here: the claim that science shows that this or that process or set of processes is “unguided”. That claim that historical outcomes – of evolution, of cosmology, of physics and otherwise – were/are entirely and completely the result of blind nature following no plan, no map or intention, full stop.

It’s important to note that I’m not making the claim that science shows that this guidance does, in fact, exist. My view is that science is stone cold silent on these questions by necessity – they are beyond its scope, making it incapable of affirming and denying the activity of God in nature. Or gods. Or, for that matter, programmers in a simulated universe, or demiurges, or advanced aliens, or otherwise. This has always made me the odd man out among the UD contributors, but what I’m talking about actually goes far beyond considerations of ID. When I infer design, I rely on arguments, analogies, observations, intuitions, impressions, philosophy, metaphysics and more. I may even make reference to science, empirical observations and more. Frankly, I may even think I have arguments that are compelling on this front, and should lead to a design inference (or much, much more) for people who encounter them.

But I don’t think that’s science. It’s just logic, thinking, arguments, observations and axioms. Great, respectable stuff, but science, it ain’t.

I could go on for a while about why I think this – what my approach to the demarcation problem is and more. But I’m going to keep this simple.

Someone who tells me “science shows this process was/is unguided” is making a claim. The burden of proof is on them upon the instant.

For science – as opposed to philosophy or metaphysics or intuition or otherwise – to show something, you’re going to need a hypothesis, an experiment, a result. Nowadays, most people would probably insist on the supposed gold standard of peer-reviewed research. What’s more, you’re going to need a hypothesis without obvious, glaring holes in it – if you present a hypothesis of ‘I think God will make this tennis ball I’m holding in my hand turn into a pigeon’, it’s going to be trivial to tear your experimental concept apart immediately.

So, if science were able to show that selection processes, mutation processes, even radioactive processes, etc were unguided, what I’d expect to see is the same for any other supposedly scientific claim: experiments, peer-reviewed research. And this research would have to stand up to scrutiny. Lack these things, and it doesn’t matter if the claim in question is ultimately true – whatever the reasoning process is that’s being used to arrive at this conclusion, it’s not science.

At first glance, this seems like hairsplitting. But the impact on modern thought would actually be tremendous if this were more widely recognized: it, at once, is completely sufficient to defang nearly the entire suite of evangelical atheist claims about science. It turns out that evolutionary science hasn’t so much as dented the claim that design exists in biology, because the presence or lack of design is a question science is completely incapable of answering. The same holds true for every bit of physical science you wish to reference – it applies just as much to fundamental forces of nature as it does to evolutionary claims and more. Quite a lot can be discovered about those processes, but ‘guidance’ is off the table as far as science goes.

Naturally, I think this is going to be difficult to accept on all sides. The Gnu Atheist cannot – to accept this point, because to do so is to grant an unconditional surrender on one of the most central claims of the modern evangelical atheist movement. ID proponents will have a problem with it because it calls into question, if not necessarily directly, whether design inferences are science or not. BioLogos-styled Christian Darwinists will dislike it because the evangelical atheists will be in distress at the claim, and that’s generally enough to cow them.

But it’s the clear and obvious truth of the matter. If it wasn’t, these experiments would not only exist – people would be screaming about them. There’d be an episode of Cosmos devoted to it. Instead, we get side-arguments and smuggled in conclusions. And that’s all we’ll ever get, because this is an example of question where science, on its own, becomes basically useless.

Comments
Nullasalus, do I understand you correctly when I state that according to you science starts off with an "unscientific" hypothesis; unscientific because it is by definition loaded with philosophy, reasoning etc. Pure science is the attempt to test such a loaded hypothesis - the production of raw data by an experiment and or research. However any interpretation of this data is a step outside of science, since reasoning, logic and thinking kick in and those are not science. ? --- StephenB, thanks for your reply. I’m curious to find out how Nullasalus defines science and where he differs from your position.Box
April 14, 2014
April
04
Apr
14
14
2014
05:36 PM
5
05
36
PM
PDT
box
Do you agree with Nullasalus #35 #40 that confirming and disconfirming guidedness are both outside the purview of science?
I think Eric has explained it well @57. However, in the spirit of giving you a straight answer to a straight question, I have to say that I disagree with nullasalus. I think that only unguidedness is outside the purview of science. On the other hand, I do think nullasalus is being consistent insofar as he seems to dismiss the historical sciences and other related methodolgies as legitimate expressions of that genre. He hasn't really given me his coordinates, but I infer from what he says that he accepts only the hard sciences as legitimate science. Eric, Querius (and yours truly) accept forensic science, SETI, paleontology and archeology as science for the same reasons that we accept ID as science. It appears that nullasalus does not. In order to avoid any further trouble, I will refrain from speculating on Sal's position. In any case, we can take a simple example to make the point. Historical science (archeology, paleontology) can distinguish the designed artifacts found in ancient Pompei (intelligent cause) from the volcano that buried them (natural cause). The scientist knows that the artifacts can only be the result of a guided process. By definition, an artifact is designed with an end in mind. The scientist cannot know with the same degree of certainty that the activity of the volcano was not guided.StephenB
April 14, 2014
April
04
Apr
14
14
2014
11:29 AM
11
11
29
AM
PDT
Box @56: It is most certainly possible to draw an inference to the best explanation, based on our understanding of cause and effect in the world and to, therefore, confirm guidedness. That is the whole point of the ID enterprise. If someone is saying we can't conclude/confirm something unless we have (i) repeatable, empirical proof, or (ii) actual historical witness, then that is, frankly, unhelpful. Even if we grant it to be true, it is trivially true, everyone knows it, and it doesn't help move things forward. Furthermore, if we are exercising hyperskepticism, one can certainly question even empirical proofs or actual witness of events. One could, for example, posit that the experiments were tampered with, that the witness was deceived, that some other mental state made us think we saw something that we didn't, that we are just a brain in a jar in some lab and all reality is but an illusion, and so on. If the litmus test here is whether we can imagine some way in which X could be false, then nothing -- nothing -- can be considered true. But that isn't the way science works; it isn't the way the world works; it isn't practical; it isn't helpful. We have to trust our instruments. We have to trust our basic logic. We have to trust our ability to observe and understand the world around us. Thus, the only real substantive point seems to be that, given our instruments and our faculties, some things are more amenable to direct observation, confirmation and/or logical deduction than others. In contrast, some things require a reasonable inference; and we are perfectly justified in drawing reasonable inferences as long as they aren't illogical and as long as they comport with our other experimental and observational evidence of how the world works. And based on our understanding of how the world works, we can, in some instances, draw a reasonable inference ("conclude" or "confirm," if you will) that something was guided. In contrast, based on our understanding of how the world works, we cannot (at least not to the level of assurance we are trying to reach) confirm that anything was unguided. Confirming guided and confirming unguided are not parallel cases. There are good reasons for this, as I outlined in #43 above.Eric Anderson
April 14, 2014
April
04
Apr
14
14
2014
09:48 AM
9
09
48
AM
PDT
StephenB:
We can confirm guidedness beyond a reasonable doubt; we cannot confirm unguidedness at all.
Do you agree with Nullasalus #35 #40 that confirming and disconfirming guidedness are both outside the purview of science?Box
April 14, 2014
April
04
Apr
14
14
2014
02:03 AM
2
02
03
AM
PDT
nullasalus:
I’m not in the YEC camp, and never have been. But I hope you’re not saying that justifies getting worked up. What would be the point, on those terms alone?
I never thought you were. I apologize if anything I've written intimates otherwise. But there is at least one Young Earth Creationist who has been granted a platform for his views here at UD under the guise that he is an advocant of Intelligent Design, when nothing could be further from the truth.Mung
April 14, 2014
April
04
Apr
14
14
2014
01:06 AM
1
01
06
AM
PDT
Eric Anderson:
We can confirm that something was guided. That is the whole point of ID.
Right.
What we cannot confirm is that something wasn’t guided. For two reasons: (i) it requires proving a negative, and (ii) there may be guidance that is currently undetectable to us.
Right again. We can confirm guidedness beyond a reasonable doubt; we cannot confirm unguidedness at all.StephenB
April 14, 2014
April
04
Apr
14
14
2014
12:50 AM
12
12
50
AM
PDT
Querius:
Science is a structured intellectual and ethical discipline based on logic and performed by observation and measurement, and resulting in models of reality that are useful in predicting relationships and outcomes reliably. These models can be refined or replaced as necessary or as more data becomes available. The scientific method can be applied to data in disparate fields, including physics, learning theory, horse racing, engine design, radiometric dating, and so on.
Good. You have immersed yourself admirably into the deep roots of the subject matter. Based on your definition, it seems that one could make a reasoned judgment about whether or not a given intellectual enterprise rises to the level of science. It also provides a standard with which one can either agree or disagree, which is another way of saying that it discloses to the reader the assumptions that inform the argument. More than this cannot be asked. (Notice that our respective definitions are different but, in my judgment, compatible).
Darwinism and ID are each paradigms with implicit assumptions. The scientific method might be applied within each paradigm, or it might be replaced with speculative story telling, which in some cases seems to be due to ideological contamination.
I would say that ID's main methodological approaches ("irreducible complexity," "specified complexity," "historical science," "abductive reasoning," "inference to the best explanation," "cosmological fine-tuning," "the anthropic principle," and "counterflow" are all free of ideological contamination and consistent with the scientific method. Again, you have provided a standard on which a judgment can be made, which is the point at issue. In order for someone to claim that ID is not science (in this context), he must either challenge your definition of science, show that ID doesn't really apply scientific methods, or support the claim that those methods are not free of ideological contamination. I don't think that such a charge can reasonably be made. At the same time, I think it is easy to show that Darwinism is not free of ideological contamination because of its apriori commitment to methodological naturalism and its unwillingness to admit countervailing evidence. Thus, one could argue that Darwinism is only partly committed to the scientific method and follows it in a very selective way.
In addition, Science is in a continual process of change. Unfortunately, teachers and professors can become fossilized and dogmatic in what they consider The Truth. Science can never be sure of The Truth, but it is instead a series of approximations that increase in usefulness.
Agreed.StephenB
April 14, 2014
April
04
Apr
14
14
2014
12:43 AM
12
12
43
AM
PDT
Mung, I'm not in the YEC camp, and never have been. But I hope you're not saying that justifies getting worked up. What would be the point, on those terms alone?nullasalus
April 14, 2014
April
04
Apr
14
14
2014
12:42 AM
12
12
42
AM
PDT
nullasalus:
A little aggressive in here for guys largely on the same side, isn’t it?
Nope. There are no Intelligent Design arguments in favor of the "creation science" or "creation theology" assertions that life originated 6000 years ago, was wiped out in a global flood, and subsequently diversified by Darwinian means.Mung
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
11:51 PM
11
11
51
PM
PDT
Dionosio @46:
One has to have a prolific imagination to extrapolate an example of species adaptation and convert it into a grandiose theory of origin of species, without explaining how we got the finches to begin with. Really pathetic to see our gullible minds accepting such story without questioning it.
Unfortunately, there is a certain "logic" to it. To the committed materialist everything we see around us -- from stars to planets, to bacteria, to humans -- is the result of a long series of random changes adding up over long periods of time; it's all part of the grand process of "evolution." So when they see any empirical evidence for evolution, even in the most basic and limited sense like finch beaks or peppered moths, they think they have found evidence for "evolution." And since "evolution" is, by definition, what produces everything, then they think they have found evidence for the whole kit and kaboodle. Any evidence of any change becomes evidence for the whole story. Of course, if one escapes from the intellectual trap of thinking that everything is the result of the grand evolutionary process, then one is free to consider other possibilities. Like the possibility that the minor temporary adaptations we see around us might not, in fact, lead to new species, families, genera and so on. That kind of logical possibility is closed to the materialist mind. The materialist is forced, by his a priori philosophical commitment, to believe that minor miniscule adaptations just must over time, lead to more significant changes . . . to big evolution, grand evolution. Philip Johnson did a fantastic job in one of his lectures of laying out this materialist mindset and how it colors everything the materialist sees.Eric Anderson
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
09:43 PM
9
09
43
PM
PDT
StephenB, Science is a structured intellectual and ethical discipline based on logic and performed by observation and measurement, and resulting in models of reality that are useful in predicting relationships and outcomes reliably. These models can be refined or replaced as necessary or as more data becomes available. The scientific method can be applied to data in disparate fields, including physics, learning theory, horse racing, engine design, radiometric dating, and so on. Darwinism and ID are each paradigms with implicit assumptions. The scientific method might be applied within each paradigm, or it might be replaced with speculative story telling, which in some cases seems to be due to ideological contamination. In addition, Science is in a continual process of change. Unfortunately, teachers and professors can become fossilized and dogmatic in what they consider The Truth. Science can never be sure of The Truth, but it is instead a series of approximations that increase in usefulness. To deny that ID is a valid scientific paradigm, is to deny on principle even the most miniscule possibility that in the billions of Earth-like planets in the universe, there might exist intelligent agents that designed life on Earth or that an extra-dimensional entity created everything. Pragmatically speaking, even without the existence of an intelligent agent, an ID paradigm seems to promote scientific progress better that a paradigm that assumes only random processes and events. For example, the assumption that most DNA is "junk" had the effect of delaying scientific progress, which is most likely considered not a good thing. -QQuerius
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
09:43 PM
9
09
43
PM
PDT
nullasalus @ 45
A little aggressive in here for guys largely on the same side, isn’t it?
The more I read the passionate discussions y'all have in here, the more I realize how little I know :(Dionisio
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
09:35 PM
9
09
35
PM
PDT
nullasalus @ 45
A little aggressive in here for guys largely on the same side, isn’t it?
Yes, at times it seems a little aggressive, but perhaps it's just passion? ;-)Dionisio
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
09:28 PM
9
09
28
PM
PDT
PaV @ 28
Another point to consider: The Galapagos Finches. The Grants have just come out and said that their findings about the beak sizes of these finches has been thrown into question because of hybridization. Well, this was one of Darwinism’s ’cause celebre.’ An “experiment” demonstrating evolution. And now they have to backtrack.
From a non-biologist engineering common sense point of view, the whole Galapagos finches story sounds like a joke. One has to have a prolific imagination to extrapolate an example of species adaptation and convert it into a grandiose theory of origin of species, without explaining how we got the finches to begin with. Really pathetic to see our gullible minds accepting such story without questioning it.Dionisio
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
09:23 PM
9
09
23
PM
PDT
A little aggressive in here for guys largely on the same side, isn't it?nullasalus
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
08:59 PM
8
08
59
PM
PDT
Sal
You’re making stuff up about people’s motivation is tiresome. You do this a lot. You make up all sorts of labels about me which I never subscribed to.
Your answer to the question about whether ID is science amounts to this: Well, yes and no. I would characterize that as an attempt to have it both ways. You may disagree with that characterization, but I certainly didn't make up the ambivalent musings that prompted it. The fact is, you really cannot make up your mind if ID is science. How much information do you think you would need to come up with a decision?
I don’t believe creationism on the whole is science, but the science parts of creationism that are science are science, we call that “creation science”.
I don't believe that creation science is science either. That is a strawman argument and a distraction. We are discussing [a] your definition of science (which you refuse to disclose), [b] ID's definition of itself (which you discount), and ID's account of why it is science (which you ignore). In pointing out these evasions, I am not "making up labels about you," but I am pushing the envelope a bit so that you will respond. If you don't know what science is, then you cannot possibly know which intellectual endeavors rise to that level. That should be obvious.
I’m ambivalent to call ID on the whole science,
We already know that. I am asking you why you are ambivalent to call ID (as a whole) science and you are not responding. Do you think that ID (as a whole) and its hypothesis about "certain features in nature" and "intelligent causes" are not properly articulated? Do you think these concepts are meaningless unless and until you break them up into "theories of design" vs. "theories of "intelligence." Or are we all supposed to agree with the way you reframe ID's definition of itself? The fact is that you have responded to none of my arguments. Not one. ..."but the science part of ID is science, but we don’t really have a phrase “ID science” to demarcate the science parts of ID vs the parts of ID that might not comfortably fit some peoples’ views of what counts as science." Some peoples views? We don't even know your views about what counts as science or why. All we know is that you are ambivalent about it. In fact, almost everyone in the academy holds views about science and those views, typically defined as methodological naturalism, are not congenial with ID's hypothesis. In point of fact, those views are not based on a sound philosophy of science. Does it bother you at all that this is the case? Is ID supposed to cater to this kind of nonsense or try to please those who subscribe to it? You appear to think so. Do you even know why ID claims to be a scientific enterprise? If you do, what are your arguments against those reasons?
Finally, especially tiring is I held the title of scientist (junior scientist) before getting promoted to another job (senior engineer). I’ve had training in science disciplines under other scientists. As far as I can tell you focus philosophy and have yet to make much of any science post at UD.
Sorry, but I don't accept your argument from authority. You will have to make your case. (Just so that you will know, I have had sufficient training in both mathematics and science to hold up my technical end of whatever technical arguments that I make). With respect to the posts that I write, yes I often write about philosophy because the errors that ID's critics make are, on the whole, errors in reasoning.
I don’t especially appreciate you trying to talk down to me about my supposed misunderstandings of what is and isn’t science and my motivations.
It's all in your imagination. I am simply challenging your arguments and characterizing your non-responses.StephenB
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
08:28 PM
8
08
28
PM
PDT
nullasalas @40: More like: We can confirm that something was guided. That is the whole point of ID. What we cannot confirm is that something wasn't guided. For two reasons: (i) it requires proving a negative, and (ii) there may be guidance that is currently undetectable to us. This is analogous to the general design inference methodology. Namely, we can confirm that some things are designed; however, we cannot conclusively determine that something was not designed.Eric Anderson
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
07:44 PM
7
07
44
PM
PDT
PaV,
Is anthropology a science? What ‘experiments’ do they perform? Is psychology a science? What ‘experiments’ do they perform? Mostly what both of these “sciences” do is catalog ‘facts’.
Even among people who would consider those fields science, they are regarded as "soft science". I'm willing to bite the bullet and say no, those fields are valuable, but (at least in large part) they're not science. Is "political science" science? I mean, it has science right in its name. And yet, and yet...
Add to this what you’re describing as a ‘toss-up’ between the Darwinists’ claim of evolution being the result of “unguided processes” and the IDists’ claim of “intelligent design,” then, given that we have a standoff, I would think that the ‘science’ (is that what ‘science’ does: explain why things are the way they are? Is that the definition we should be using here?) that gives the ‘better explanations’ is superior? Then how is it that the recognized ‘science’, i.e., Darwinism in general, gets it ‘wrong’, and the supposed ‘non-science’ gets it ‘right’ when it comes to predictions, but they end up being able to keep the appellation ‘science’ but ID is not able to?
What I'm saying would actually rule out a fair chunk of "Darwinism" as non-science too. If you ruled as 'non-science' any claim that such and such evolutionary processes were carried out ultimately with no plan, no intention, and so on and so forth, you'd be taking out quite a chunk of modern claims about evolutionary theory.
Yet ID says that the likelihood of cytochrome c having come about by chance processes is 20^110. Seems to me that this is a bit higher than one in a hundred thousand. Fred Hoyle, an atheist astrophysicist, gives us this calculation of the odds for cytochrome c as proof positive that Darwinian evolution is a bunch of hocum. So why is Darwinism a ‘science’ and ID is not?
I have no problem calling criticisms like those scientific. Nor do I think that, say, Behe's criticisms of Darwinism are non-scientific. My problem only comes in at the level of inferences of or against design and calling said inferences science.nullasalus
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
06:16 PM
6
06
16
PM
PDT
phoodoo:
To be fair, I think a more realistic task for an unguided model for evolution would be to remove the need for a sentence about a weasel, and instead allow the program to come up with ANY meaningful set of words that is longer than say a paragraph.
First the design skeptic will argue that the process is unguided even if there is a target, because it mimics natural selection, which is unguided. Then the question arises of how replacing a single target phrase with multiple different target phrases would transform the process into one that is unguided. Given a single target phrase, how does the algorithm know which of the candidate phrases to keep and which to discard? Put in different terms, upon what basis, and to what extent, is the candidate phrase "seeded" into the next generation? Given multiple target phrases, how does the algorithm know which of the candidate phrases to keep and which to discard? Upon what basis, and to what extent, are the candidate phrases "seeded" into the next generation? What's the difference, really, if any?Mung
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
06:08 PM
6
06
08
PM
PDT
Box,
So there is no scientific way to determine that a Volvo xc90 came about by a guided process? That is outside of the purview of science?
You can use science in your investigation of that question, but once you start talking about the mental aspects - intentions, thoughts, plans, etc - yep, you're outside of science. This is what seems to throw people. Because what I just said - 'science can't determine whether a Volvo was created by an intelligent agent' - for many people gets translated as 'we can't tell whether a Volvo was created by an intelligent agent, or even make a reasonable inference'. But I believe you can make that inference, you can discern that Volvos are made by factories, which in turn are made by humans, who are agents who think, plan, have wills, etc. It's just not science. It's reasoning, it's philosophy, it's intuition and thinking, and many times, it works. I determine that every comment in this thread so far was ultimately written by an intelligent agent. "Science" doesn't show me this. I don't need science here. In fact, science would be pretty useless in this specific context.nullasalus
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
06:04 PM
6
06
04
PM
PDT
nullasalus:
‘Guided and unguided’ are irrelevant to science, outside of its purview. We don’t have guided processes, scientifically, or unguided processes. We just have processes, full stop. If we want talk about our subjective impressions, our intuitions, or our philosophical extrapolations, that’s fine. It’s just not science.
So there is no scientific way to determine that a Volvo xc90 came about by a guided process? That is outside of the purview of science?Box
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
05:59 PM
5
05
59
PM
PDT
Perhaps nullasalus does have point that is relevant to ID, rather than just a general point about science:
The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection. ID is thus a scientific disagreement with the core claim of evolutionary theory that the apparent design of living systems is an illusion.
Does ID grant that natural selection is an unguided process? Why? Is it because "natural" means "unguided"? Why grant that a process that retains the most fit and discards the least fit is unguided?Mung
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
05:56 PM
5
05
56
PM
PDT
Mung,
But many would probably argue that that approach is just playing right into their hands, to label religious believers as anti-science nutcases.
I think at this point it has been established that 'anti-science nutcase' is going to be the charge no matter what for anyone who's not a devoted secularist. But at least the affirmation of the rights of individuals to look at evidence for themselves and decide what is or isn't likely - and, at the same time, pointing out the abuses and misrepresentations of science as we encounter them - has some broad appeal.
There are no doubt many issues of interest that could be raised where science has no answers, but those are often seen as “subjective,” as if subjective is a bad things and objective is a good thing.
No doubt. But you know why so many people have that attitude? At least in my experience, it's because they falsely believe that quite a lot of their views are objective rather than subjective - or they subconsciously exclude quite a lot of their views from that test. I can only report my experiences. When I point out what I'm talking about to many atheists - that all the talk of 'unguided' nature is not established by science, that there's no experiment for it, no peer reviewed research out there establishing it and that if ever there were it would be trivial to dismantle - their response is, contra Eric, not to shrug with apathy. It's to freak out a bit. They turn to quotes from atheist scientists (who, seemingly, are the only ones they ever read) affirming that this or that is unguided, purposeless... and freak out more when I point out that the subjective opinion of a science, detached from experiment and research, is of no more value than mine or anyone else's. At least as far as science is concerned. Maybe that's an approach to these conversations ID proponents should be considering: an appeal to the validity of individuals investigating questions for themselves and coming to their own conclusions about science and guidance and intelligence - as opposed to requiring them to have blind faith in the authority of scientists or the consensus of scientists.nullasalus
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
05:51 PM
5
05
51
PM
PDT
Salvador:
I’m ambivalent to call ID on the whole science, but the science part of ID is science, but we don’t really have a phrase “ID science” to demarcate the science parts of ID vs the parts of ID that might not comfortably fit some peoples’ views of what counts as science.
You're saying we need an "ID Theology" category where you can put the "not science" portions of ID? Now here at UD we find the following:
In a broader sense, Intelligent Design is simply the science of design detection
So you disagree with the definition of ID we use here at UD? You think the broad definition is too narrow? Is it any wonder I don't think you're an Intelligent Design advocate, despite the pretense?
The reason I don’t see a contradiction is creationism is divided into two disciplines: 1. creation science 2. creation theology
What on earth is "creation theology"? Is it just code for a base literal hermeneutic?Mung
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
05:50 PM
5
05
50
PM
PDT
Eric,
But it wouldn’t move the conversation forward at all. Because the individual can then just add a qualifier and start over with making whatever point there were trying to make. Rather than talking about a “process that is unguided,” they can simply talk about a “process that appears unguided,” given our current state of knowledge.
Actually, that moves the conversation forward tremendously. You've established that science is dead silent - entirely silent - on guidance across the board, from evolution the weather to physics. The moment someone starts talking about 'a process that appears unguided', they're making a subjective judgment call. There's no 'appears unguided to us given our current state of knowledge', because 'we' disagree on that apparent guidance - and it's going to be put in further relief when it's pointed out that "knowledge" isn't what's operative here, but intuition, philosophy, and otherwise. Not science.
And, indeed, that is precisely what everyone means when they say something is unguided. So we’ve won on the technical point that, yes, something or someone could theoretically be guiding said process. But we haven’t gained any substantive ground in the discussion.
Yes, you have. There's a reason why Jerry Coyne and others repeatedly and explicitly attempt to treat 'lack of design' as 'something science has discovered/shown'. So no, it's not precisely what everyone means when they say something is unguided. Many times, even often, they're mistaken or not thinking things through.
Furthermore, as a genuine practical (and scientific) matter, we still need to be able to distinguish between different kinds of processes. We still need to distinguish between (i) processes that appear unguided, and (ii) processes that appear guided. And the simplest way to refer to them in normal conversation is “unguided” and “guided.”
No, we don't. Not as a scientific matter, since guidance of the sort we're discussing is irrelevant to the questions being asked. "Appearances" of this kind in either direction, in fact, are irrelevant to science. And we should be challenging that in normal conversation.
But in the great majority of the cases, when a process appears unguided we are probably justified — if not strictly logically, then at least practically — proceeding according to appearance and assuming (unless and until we learn something to the contrary) that the process is in fact unguided.
No, we're not justified - and treating the subjective opining of scientists about the presence or lack of guidance re: science is not 'acceptable shorthand', but abuse of scientific authority and a misrepresentation of the data. What would be justify, in the great majority of cases, is recognizing that 'unguidedness' is not demonstrated by science - there's no experiment, no research, no test for this. 'Guided and unguided' are irrelevant to science, outside of its purview. We don't have guided processes, scientifically, or unguided processes. We just have processes, full stop. If we want talk about our subjective impressions, our intuitions, or our philosophical extrapolations, that's fine. It's just not science.nullasalus
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
05:41 PM
5
05
41
PM
PDT
nullasalus:
If that’s the attitude, count me out. You shouldn’t be seeking to be part of the consensus of scientists. You should be seeking to remove unwarranted credibility from their collective reputations.
Some nice food for thought there. Thank you. But many would probably argue that that approach is just playing right into their hands, to label religious believers as anti-science nutcases. So perhaps that's too thin a line for many ID'ers to walk, or they don't know how to begin. There are no doubt many issues of interest that could be raised where science has no answers, but those are often seen as "subjective," as if subjective is a bad things and objective is a good thing. Which in itself is a value judgment, lol.Mung
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
05:34 PM
5
05
34
PM
PDT
nullasalus:
You’d think pointing out that science is being abused and miscommunicated in fundamental ways by atheists and scientists, and has been for a tremendous amount of time – in fact, arguably this very abuse is what inspired the modern ID movement, as a reaction to it – would garner interest. Likely my fault in communicating it poorly.
Nope. You communicated it just fine. I just think there's not much disagreement about it here. :) But couldn't someone come up with an operational definition of unguided and work from that and have it accepted as science? If not, why not?Mung
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
05:27 PM
5
05
27
PM
PDT
Salvador:
The reason I don’t see a contradiction is creationism is divided into two disciplines: 1. creation science 2. creation theology
lol. Dr. Hunter's maxim comes to mind. "How Religion Drives Science and Why it Matters"Mung
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
05:16 PM
5
05
16
PM
PDT
nullasalus: I think I understand your larger point. But to me it seems more of a semantic issue than a substantive one, at least in most contexts. Whenever anyone talks about a "process that is unguided" we could call them on the carpet, point out that they can't know that it is unguided, give examples (including hypothetical ones) about this or that unidentified entity that could theoretically be guiding the process and so on. Logically, we would be right. But it wouldn't move the conversation forward at all. Because the individual can then just add a qualifier and start over with making whatever point there were trying to make. Rather than talking about a "process that is unguided," they can simply talk about a "process that appears unguided," given our current state of knowledge. And, indeed, that is precisely what everyone means when they say something is unguided. So we've won on the technical point that, yes, something or someone could theoretically be guiding said process. But we haven't gained any substantive ground in the discussion. Furthermore, as a genuine practical (and scientific) matter, we still need to be able to distinguish between different kinds of processes. We still need to distinguish between (i) processes that appear unguided, and (ii) processes that appear guided. And the simplest way to refer to them in normal conversation is "unguided" and "guided." There could be a circumstance here or there in which it might be important to highlight the fact that a process which appears unguided might in fact be guided. But in the great majority of the cases, when a process appears unguided we are probably justified -- if not strictly logically, then at least practically -- proceeding according to appearance and assuming (unless and until we learn something to the contrary) that the process is in fact unguided.Eric Anderson
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
04:47 PM
4
04
47
PM
PDT
that he can have it both ways.
You're making stuff up about people's motivation is tiresome. You do this a lot. You make up all sorts of labels about me which I never subscribed to. I don't believe creationism on the whole is science, but the science parts of creationism that are science are science, we call that "creation science". I'm ambivalent to call ID on the whole science, but the science part of ID is science, but we don't really have a phrase "ID science" to demarcate the science parts of ID vs the parts of ID that might not comfortably fit some peoples' views of what counts as science. But if there were such a phrase, I'd have no problem calling "ID science" science, whereas I do have problems calling "creationism" science. Finally, especially tiring is I held the title of scientist (junior scientist) before getting promoted to another job (senior engineer). I've had training in science disciplines under other scientists. As far as I can tell you focus philosophy and have yet to make much of any science post at UD. I don't especially appreciate you trying to talk down to me about my supposed misunderstandings of what is and isn't science and my motivations. How much time have you spent studying science experiments or being associated with science laboratories? I can say at least three or more years for me. How about you?scordova
April 13, 2014
April
04
Apr
13
13
2014
04:20 PM
4
04
20
PM
PDT
1 2

Leave a Reply