Annie, git yer gun: The fundies are comin’ down from them thar hills …

With respect to the Creation Museum: I’m sure most atheists/agnostics would prefer not to have government money involved in the maintenance or building of any museum devoted to the Bible or biblical teachings. However, they must also recognize that a good many mumseusm the world over receive government support while holding biblical artifacts: the Louvre in France, for example, as well as the British Museum in London. Growing up in a Christian household, I never really questioned the validity of the flood. Jesus believed that it happened and used it to illustrate a particular time period (“just as the days of Noah, so the days of the Son of Man will be…”). Also, both Peter and Paul wrote about the flood; they also argued that the scripture was “truth.” It would be a stretch of logic to say that they were trying to get a point across by using a myth or legend. Some may wonder if the story of the whole earth being covered with water is a myth or at least an exaggeration. Indeed, to some extent the earth is still flooded. Seawater covers about 71 percent of the earth’s surface. So in reality the floodwaters are still here. And if the glaciers and polar ice caps were to melt, the sea level would rise to cover cities like New York and Tokyo. Geologists studying the landscape of the northwestern United States believe that as many as 100 ancient catastrophic floods once washed over the area. One such flood is said to have roared through the region with a wall of water 2,000 feet high, traveling at 65 miles an hour—a flood of 500 cubic miles of water, weighing more than two trillion tons. Similar findings have led other scientists to believe that a global flood is a distinct possibility. Barb

Eocene, Paul Colman - The One Thing (with Lyrics) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dgrigf-Ca48 bornagain77

Bornagain77: "I really questioned the whole global flood thing, . . " === Interesting That's a pity, because your supposed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ quoted from the Genesis Deluge of Noah's day account as a biblical fact of history. ---- On another note: It's ashame from the artist's conception and other pics I've seen of the actual Ark, why is it always depicted as a ship or boat with rounded sides when the actuall biblical description and blueprints call for the building of a rectangular box. This has actually be scientifically proven to be the best floating design. A boat/ship with rounded corners would be more easily turned over and sunk. clearly a human would have chosen rounded cornered boat design, but apparently the creator knew better. Besides, the boat/ship design is more suited for traveling from distance to distance, the ark wasn't meant to travel anywhere. The problem with such Fundie takes on actual events to make them have a Disney-like story line is that it looses real world credibility and takes on a fictional viewpoint for mere entertainment value. Eocene

Just say that if the state allows evolution etc to be taught then its attacking Christian etc beliefs. So the state is breaking any rule of neutrality. The logic here is that if truth is being taught or strived for and it touches on ideas in religion then theres no escaping it. likewise teaching truth might mean teaching Christian etc ideas are true. Too bad. Its about the truth stupid. (Remember that line way back). If the state bans and teaches opposite to God/Genesis then the state is making a official opinion on the merits of same. where is my reasoning wrong here? All this from the very Protestant Yankees/Southerners back in the day. Robert Byers

Rob Boston is clueless. For example he sez:

What these groups share is a belief – either stated upfront or implied – that evolution and religion are irreconcilable; one must choose one or the other. But many religious leaders say that’s a false choice.

Will Provine, no friend of Creationism, says:

In other words, religion is compatible with modern evolutionary biology (and indeed all of modern science) if the religion is effectively indistinguishable from atheism.1

…

The frequently made assertion that modern biology and the assumptions of the Judaeo-Christian tradition are fully compatible is false.2

…

Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented. Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent.3

As the creationists claim, belief in modern evolution makes atheists of people. One can have a religious view that is compatible with evolution only if the religious view is indistinguishable from atheism.4

‘Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear … There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That’s the end for me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life, and no free will for humans, either.’ 5

1- Academe January 1987 pp.51-52 † 2-Evolutionary Progress (1988) p. 65 † 3- “Evolution: Free will and punishment and meaning in life” 1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address 1 2 † 4- No Free Will (1999) p.123 5- Provine, W.B., Origins Research 16(1), p.9, 1994. Joseph

'Serendipitously', Crevo just posted a article on a 'geological anomaly' that contradicts the 'expected' geology of gradualism: The Rise and Fall of Submerged Landscapes http://crev.info/content/110710-rise_and_fall_of_submerged_landscapes main article is here: A Lost World? Atlantis-Like Landscape Discovered - July 2010 http://www.livescience.com/14974-geologists-remains-landscape-rose-north-atlantic-ocean-56-million-years-sinking.html ================ When You Know - Inspirational Song by Shawn Colvin from the movie Serendipity http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4209342/ bornagain77

cont: This following secular article 'honestly' admits that 'some big canyons' were formed by catastrophic floods: Secular Geology Admits to Rapid Canyon Formation by Megafloods - June 21 2010 Excerpt: “Our traditional view of deep river canyons, such as the Grand Canyon, is that they are carved slowly, as the regular flow and occasionally moderate rushing of rivers erodes rock over periods of millions of years.” Quoting Michael Lamb of Caltech, co-author of a paper in Nature Geoscience, the article said that such is not always the case: “We know that some big canyons have been cut by large catastrophic flood events during Earth’s history.” http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201006.htm#20100621a The following article investigates eight anomalies of the Grand Canyon that strongly suggest rapid formation by a catastrophic flood of global proportions: Eight factual descriptions of the Grand Canyon http://www.canyonministries.com/content/view/31/54/ Here is another anomaly of the Grand Canyon: Grand Canyon Sand Hails from Back East Excerpt: Sands from the Appalachians have found a tourist mecca in the arid Southwest, it seems. Two weeks ago it was reported that Utah’s Navajo sandstones came from the Appalachians, and now a geologist from Univ. of Arizona thinks the same for Grand Canyon sandstones, He bases his conclusion on radiometric dates of zircons in the sand which match those in Appalachia. This would require huge rivers bearing sand thousands of miles westward to Wyoming, “from whence winds blew it south into the dune fields” of Arizona. The resulting sand pile covered an area the size of the Kalahari desert. “I was very surprised by what we found,” said one of the geologists. http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev0903.htm#geo71 Here is a site that, though written from a Young Earth perspective, gives a fairly good overview of the many strange anomalies in the fossil record that point to an ancient global flood: The Fossil Record http://detectingdesign.com/fossilrecord.html Yet to be fair here is a paper outlining some fairly reasonable objections to a global flood (of note: Dr. Ross's 'Reasons to Believe' ministry has endured a fair amount of 'mudslinging' from other Christians for holding to the 'local flood' theory): Noah's Flood: A Bird's-Eye View - Steve Sarigianis http://www.reasons.org/astronomy/noahs-flood/noahs-flood-article-1 Of related interest; Rainbows are formed by what are called ‘Quantum Catastrophes’. Thus, since I find Quantum Mechanical phenomena to be thoroughly Theistic, as to the necessity of providing a coherent non-local (beyond space and time) causation, that does not dissolve into absurdity as postulated 'non-reductive' materialistic causes do, then yes I actually do think God does form rainbows; Quantum Catastrophes Excerpt: Catastrophes [1] are at the heart of many fascinating optical phenomena. The most prominent example of such a catastrophe is the rainbow. http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~ulf/catastrophe.html bornagain77

I really questioned the whole global flood thing, and certainly do not buy into the young earth creationism theology driving the science (just as I don't buy the 'theology' of Darwinism driving science), but it is also fair to note, despite my reservations, that I found Noah's global flood actually does have some fairly strong empirical evidence supporting its validity as to a real historical event; notes; Tracing Your Ancestors Through History - Noah's Descendants - video http://edinburghcreationgroup.org/video/1 TABLE OF NATIONS (GENEALOGY OF MANKIND) by Tim Osterholm Excerpt: The fact is, that wherever its statements can be sufficiently tested, Genesis 10 of the Bible has been found completely accurate; resulting partly from linguistic studies, partly from archaeology, and, more recently still, from the findings of physical anthropologists, who are, to this day, recovering important clues to lines of migration in ancient historic times. As implied in verse 32 of Genesis 10, this Table includes everybody; meaning that so-called fossil man, primitive peoples (ancient and modern) and modern man are all derived from Noah's three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. http://www.soundchristian.com/man/ This following video, and article, are very interesting for they talk about the scientific evidence for a 'genetic Adam' and a 'genetic Eve', and how the evidence relates to Noah's flood: Does human genetic evidence support Noah's flood? - Fazale Rana - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4116168 Book Review; Who Was Adam?: A Creation Model Approach to the Origin of Man: Excerpt: The Bible claims that there was a genetic bottleneck at the Genesis flood. Whereas all females can trace their ancestry back to Eve (through the three wives of Noah's sons), all males trace their Y-chromosomes through Noah (through his three sons). This predicted discrepancy for molecular dates of mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome data is actually seen in the scientific literature. http://www.godandscience.org/newsletters/2005-09.html The following videos outline some surprisingly strong geological evidence for a global flood that will make any honest person scratch their head in wonder: Startling Evidence That Noah's Flood Really Happened - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGeULHljDn8 This following article points to a global anomaly in sediment layers. A anomaly that would be expected from a global flood perspective: Ancient Earth Smackdown at Santa Fe Tells Global Story - August 2010 Excerpt: “Geologist John Wesley Powell called this major gap in the geologic record, which is also seen in other parts of the world, the Great Unconformity.” Clicking on the link elaborates further: “The Great Unconformity is a geologic feature that exists across the world at a relatively consistent rock strata (or depth relative to sea-level).” Any unconformity worldwide in its extent would seem to require to a global catastrophe. http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201008.htm#20100810a Worldwide 'planation' also points to a global disaster from water: Planation surface Excerpt: planation surface, any low-relief plain cutting across varied rocks and structures. Among the most common landscapes on Earth, planation surfaces include pediments, pediplains, etchplains, and peneplains. There has been much scientific controversy over the origins of such surfaces. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/462878/planation-surface It’s plain to see - Flat land surfaces are strong evidence for the Genesis Flood Excerpt: A planation surface is a large, level, or nearly level, land surface that has been ‘planed’ flat by running water. Scientists believe that running water cut these surfaces because they are covered by rounded rocks. Water is the only agent we know that can produce rounded rocks, by tumbling them against each other as it transports them along.,,, Planation surfaces sometimes cut across tilted sedimentary rocks. They are especially easy to recognize. The layered sedimentary rocks are often a combination of hard and soft rocks. Only a gigantic, fast-running water flow could have cut both the hard and soft rocks evenly.,,, Geomorphologist Lester King has documented that planation surfaces are abundant on all continents and found at different elevations. He noted about 60% of Africa is a series of planation surfaces. Some planation surfaces are located on the top of mountains. http://creation.com/its-plain-to-see This ‘global anomaly’ of planation, is exactly what we would expect to see from a global flood perspective, yet the dating of the global catastrophe(s) from water, as far as I know, is not yet known to accurate detail. Indeed I know of no secular reference of any known ‘mass extinction’ that mentions any ancient global disaster for water covering the face earth, to form this worldwide 'unconformity' and planation. And yet, there the worldwide anomaly sits. An anomaly that certainly requires a global deluge to explain!: The following video is very interesting for it shows a geological formation that is now known to have been formed by a catastrophic flood, yet Charles Darwin himself had 'predicted' the geological formation was formed 'gradually': Where Darwin Went Wrong - geology video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3darzVqzV2o bornagain77