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Carpathian and ilk vs. the First Amendment to the US Constitution

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Carpathian, sadly but predictably, in the face of remonstrance has continued his attempts to support ghettoising, stigmatising and silencing the voice of the Christian in public; making himself a poster-child of a clear and present danger to liberty in our time.

For example:

>>Religious activities should all be private.

Any prospects for religious conversion should be invited to listen to the message from that faith but the message itself should be a private affair.

There are parents who may not want their children exposed to certain religions or religious teachings and that barrier to religion should be considered a fundamental right and honored by all faiths.>>

Of course, conveniently (by redefining faith into an imagined projected blind fideism) such implicitly exempt their own faith, evolutionary materialist scientism and secular humanism and/or its fellow travellers.

But, such a mentality is strikingly at odds with the classic expression of protection of civil liberties found in the First Amendment of the US Constitution, Mother of democratic constitutions in our time. Accordingly, I replied and think that it is worthwhile to headline that response:

____________

The First Amdt, US Const
The First Amdt, US Const

>>>On the 1st Amdt US Const, starting with what Congress submitted:

Transcription of the 1789 Joint Resolution of Congress Proposing 12 Amendments to the U.S. Constitution

Congress of the United States
begun and held at the City of New-York, on
Wednesday the fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.

RESOLVED by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution of the United States, all, or any of which Articles, when ratified by three fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of the said Constitution; viz.

ARTICLES in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution . . . .

Article the thirdCongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances . . . .

ATTEST,

Frederick Augustus Muhlenberg, Speaker of the House of Representatives

John Adams, Vice-President of the United States, and President of the Senate

John Beckley, Clerk of the House of Representatives.

Sam. A Otis Secretary of the Senate

Thus, we see the same grand statement style that structures the Constitution as a whole:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America . . . . [Main Body, Arts I – VII] . . . . Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names. . . . . [AMENDMENTS].

Such a style, of course, underscores that the part be interpreted in light of the whole in its context.

Instantly, we see an emphasis on the blessings of liberty, a theological, covenantal reference that points to the Reformation era biblically rooted understanding of the double covenant of nationhood under God and good government of the nation with the consent of the governed, equally under God. (The modern secularist notion of splitting apart God and People is alien to the frame at work, and it leads to pernicious misunderstandings.)

If there is doubt as to what Blessings of Liberty refers to, observe the Congessional proclammation of a national call to penitent prayer in May 1776, on the eve of the Declaration as already cited, which in the context of the double-covenant view is a clear acknowledgement of the emerging USA being founded under God:

May 1776 [over the name of John Hancock, first signer of the US Declaration of Indpependence] : In times of impending calamity and distress; when the liberties of America are imminently endangered by the secret machinations and open assaults of an insidious and vindictive administration, it becomes the indispensable duty of these hitherto free and happy colonies, with true penitence of heart, and the most reverent devotion, publickly to acknowledge the over ruling providence of God; to confess and deplore our offences against him; and to supplicate his interposition for averting the threatened danger, and prospering our strenuous efforts in the cause of freedom, virtue, and posterity.. . . Desirous, at the same time, to have people of all ranks and degrees duly impressed with a solemn sense of God’s superintending providence, and of their duty, devoutly to rely, in all their lawful enterprizes, on his aid and direction, Do earnestly recommend, that Friday, the Seventeenth day of May next, be observed by the said colonies as a day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that we may, with united hearts, confess and bewail our manifold sins and transgressions, and, by a sincere repentance and amendment of life, appease his righteous displeasure, and, through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, obtain his pardon and forgiveness; humbly imploring his assistance to frustrate the cruel purposes of our unnatural enemies; . . . that it may please the Lord of Hosts, the God of Armies, to animate our officers and soldiers with invincible fortitude, to guard and protect them in the day of battle, and to crown the continental arms, by sea and land, with victory and success: Earnestly beseeching him to bless our civil rulers, and the representatives of the people, in their several assemblies and conventions; to preserve and strengthen their union, to inspire them with an ardent, disinterested love of their country; to give wisdom and stability to their counsels; and direct them to the most efficacious measures for establishing the rights of America on the most honourable and permanent basis—That he would be graciously pleased to bless all his people in these colonies with health and plenty, and grant that a spirit of incorruptible patriotism, and of pure undefiled religion, may universally prevail; and this continent be speedily restored to the blessings of peace and liberty, and enabled to transmit them inviolate to the latest posterity. And it is recommended to Christians of all denominations, to assemble for public worship, and abstain from servile labour on the said day.

Then, after the key successful victories that brought the full-bore French intervention that was the strategic hinge of ultimate victory:

December 1777: FORASMUCH as it is the indispensable Duty of all Men to adore the superintending Providence of Almighty God; to acknowledge with Gratitude their Obligation to him for benefits received, and to implore such farther Blessings as they stand in Need of; And it having pleased him in his abundant Mercy not only to continue to us the innumerable Bounties of his common Providence, but also to smile upon us in the Prosecution of a just and necessary War, for the Defence and Establishment of our unalienable Rights and Liberties; particularly in that he hath been pleased in so great a Measure to prosper the Means used for the Support of our Troops and to crown our Arms with most signal success: It is therefore recommended to the legislative or executive powers of these United States, to set apart THURSDAY, the eighteenth Day of December next, for Solemn Thanksgiving and Praise; That with one Heart and one Voice the good People may express the grateful Feelings of their Hearts, and consecrate themselves to the Service of their Divine Benefactor; and that together with their sincere Acknowledgments and Offerings, they may join the penitent Confession of their manifold Sins, whereby they had forfeited every Favour, and their humble and earnest Supplication that it may please GOD, through the Merits of Jesus Christ, mercifully to forgive and blot them out of Remembrance; That it may please him graciously to afford his Blessing on the Governments of these States respectively, and prosper the public Council of the whole; to inspire our Commanders both by Land and Sea, and all under them, with that Wisdom and Fortitude which may render them fit Instruments, under the Providence of Almighty GOD, to secure for these United States the greatest of all human blessings, INDEPENDENCE and PEACE; That it may please him to prosper the Trade and Manufactures of the People and the Labour of the Husbandman, that our Land may yet yield its Increase; To take Schools and Seminaries of Education, so necessary for cultivating the Principles of true Liberty, Virtue and Piety, under his nurturing Hand, and to prosper the Means of Religion for the promotion and enlargement of that Kingdom which consisteth “in Righteousness, Peace and Joy in the Holy Ghost.”[i.e. Cites Rom 14:9] [Source: Journals of the American Congress From 1774 to 1788 (Washington: Way and Gideon, 1823), Vol. I, pp. 286-287 & II, pp. 309 – 310.]

By the next year, we see in the 1778 Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union (which would be fought over in the 1860’s in a bloody civil war pivoting on the contradictions and compromises brought about by tolerating slavery):

And Whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline the hearts of the legislatures we respectively represent in Congress, to approve of, and to authorize us to ratify the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union. Know Ye that we the undersigned delegates, by virtue of the power and authority to us given for that purpose, do by these presents, in the name and in behalf of our respective constituents, fully and entirely ratify and confirm each and every of the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union . . . . In Witness whereof we have hereunto set our hands in Congress. Done at Philadelphia in the State of Pennsylvania the ninth day of July in the Year of our Lord One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy-Eight, and in the Third Year of the independence of America.

In short, the double covenant view I am putting on the table is not a mere idiosyncrasy to be brushed aside as of no significance. Instead, the persistent refusal to acknowledge easily documented well-founded historic and legal-covenantal truth is what needs to answer to some serious questions.

In that context, dating the US Constitution in terms of both The Year of our Lord AND of the independence of the US gives a big hint as to the significance of the already cited declaration of Independence. Indeed, the Constitution patently set out to deliver on new reformed government under God that would hold the legitimacy envisioned in the second paragraph of the declaration, viz:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15, 13:1 – 10], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .

Note, the context of understanding law espoused is stated in the first paragraph: “the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God.”

That puts Blackstone’s point and that of Locke citing Hooker up-front, centre. Let us again cite Blackstone, as this was the primary legal textbook of reference in the era in question and for a century and more beyond:

Man, considered as a creature, must necessarily be subject to the laws of his creator, for he is entirely a dependent being . . . consequently, as man depends absolutely upon his maker for every thing, it is necessary that he should in all points conform to his maker’s will. This will of his maker is called the law of nature. For as God, when he created matter, and endued it with a principle of mobility, established certain rules for the perpetual direction of that motion; so, when he created man, and endued him with freewill to conduct himself in all parts of life, he laid down certain immutable laws of human nature, whereby that freewill is in some degree regulated and restrained, and gave him also the faculty of reason to discover the purport of those laws . . . These are the eternal, immutable laws of good and evil, to which the creator himself in all his dispensations conforms; and which he has enabled human reason to discover, so far as they are necessary for the conduct of human actions. Such among others are these principles: that we should live honestly [NB: cf. Exod. 20:15 – 16], should hurt nobody [NB: cf. Rom 13:8 – 10], and should render to every one his due [NB: cf. Rom 13:6 – 7 & Exod. 20:15]; to which three general precepts Justinian[1: a Juris praecepta sunt hace, honeste vivere. alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere. Inst, 1. 1. 3] has reduced the whole doctrine of law [and, Corpus Juris, Justinian’s Christianised precis and pruning of perhaps 1,000 years of Roman jurisprudence, in turn is the foundation of law for much of Europe].

The point should be clear enough, but to clench it over, let us note the precedent of the Dutch DoI of 1581 under William the Silent of Orange and against Phillip II of Spain, which was directly influenced by Vindiciae of 1579, and which makes it plain that Natural Law was understood in a specifically Christian [in fact Calvinist] context and used in the first modern declaration of independence in an unmistakeable way:

. . . a prince is constituted by God to be ruler of a people, to defend them from oppression and violence as the shepherd his sheep; and whereas God did not create the people slaves to their prince, to obey his commands, whether right or wrong, but rather the prince for the sake of the subjects (without which he could be no prince), to govern them according to equity, to love and support them as a father his children or a shepherd his flock, and even at the hazard of life to defend and preserve them. And when he does not behave thus, but, on the contrary, oppresses them, seeking opportunities to infringe their ancient customs and privileges . . . then he is no longer a prince, but a tyrant, and the subjects are to consider him in no other view . . . This is the only method left for subjects whose humble petitions and remonstrances could never soften their prince or dissuade him from his tyrannical proceedings; and this is what the law of nature dictates for the defense of liberty, which we ought to transmit to posterity, even at the hazard of our lives. [–> note the direct parallel to the preamble, US Const] . . . . So, having no hope of reconciliation, and finding no other remedy, we have, agreeable to the law of nature in our own defense, and for maintaining the rights, privileges, and liberties of our countrymen, wives, and children, and latest posterity from being enslaved by the Spaniards, been constrained to renounce allegiance to the King of Spain, and pursue such methods as appear to us most likely to secure our ancient liberties and privileges [–> note the direct parallel to the US DoI].

Now, in that light let us look with fresh insights at the 3rd article in the Congressional Resolution of March 4 1789, latterly known as the 1st Amdt US Const:

>>Article the third… Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;>>

1 –> Congress resolves and submits to the people for their ratification.

2 –> There shall be no grand federal landeskirk of the united states, building on the principle of Westphalia 1648 of locality in religion, adjusted to republican circumstances and with better protection of dissenters.

3 –> at this time of course something like nine of the thirteen states had established local state churches, the free exercise clause specifically protected freikirke.

4 –> Thus the letter by Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists of Connecticut, is properly to be understood as affirming that Jefferson respected this as setting up a wall of protection for freedom of conscience, worship and religion from interference by the state, especially the state in alliance with a grand landeskirk or some unholy cartel of such at state level.

5 –> In our time, where evolutionary materialist, scientism based secular humanism and its fellow travellers constitute a de facto anti-church cartel, American Dissenting Christians face precisely that kind of interference that this clause was intended to be a bulwark against.

>>or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;>>

6 –> Notice, freedom to speak and to publish through media are protected in exactly the context of freedom of faith and its expression.

7 –> Yes, the primary sort of speech and publication being protected is just what Carpathian and others of like ilk would trammel, stigmatise, ghettoise and censor in the name of protecting their ears and eyes from being reminded of Him who they are fain to forget and dismiss.

8 –> The irony of this is itself a rebuke to such a radical secularism.

>> or the right of the people peaceably to assemble,>>

9 –> This is of course, again in the direct context of religious expression with application to general expression.

10 –> Peaceful assembly implies in homes, in houses of worship, in public spaces, on the streets so long as the assembly be not riotous or a mob seeking to threaten.

11 –> And, again, Carpathian and ilk are found in the lists as enemies of freedom. A sad but not unexpected irony.

>> and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances>>

12 –> As in, it was a grievance that the Constitution did not sufficiently and explicitly protect Dissenters from encroachment by potentially hostile establishments that led these to champion a bill of amendments culminating in this one as first in the list.

13 –> So, again, we find the despised evangelicals helping to build liberty.

14 –> And, the power to petition challenges the Laodicean, self-satisfied mentality of power elites that tend to lock out unwelcome voices and views. (As in, Jesus at the church door, knocking and asking to be let in . . . instead of simply forcing his way in while posing on his authority as Lord of the church; as strong a statement of Divine respect for human freedom as one can ever find, even freedom to follow a march of folly.)

It is high time for fresh thinking.>>>

_____________

We need to understand what we are facing, and we need to realise that given what is happening on the ground all around us, this is not just an isolated crank, but someone blurting out without full understanding, an agenda — nay, “a long train of abuses and usurpations . . .” —  that is clearly increasingly manifest in our time.

We need to wake up and act decisively in defence of liberty, or we will be the generation that fails in the long and sometimes challenging relay of passing the blessings of liberty to remotest posterity. END

Comments
Z, I know you want to get on with your agenda of the litany of the sins of Christendom (long since accepted as a reality and part of the general challenge of being finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often ill willed), which will warp ability to assess actual evidence and the balance on material issues. However, that does not make the evidence go away, I suggest you address Amdt 1 of US Const and its wider context as raised in OP and in previous threads such as here: https://uncommondescent.com/education/carpathian-vs-the-sword-blindfold-and-scales-of-justice/ It is fair comment that Christians, acting from their faith, made major contributions to the rise of modern liberty and democracy. That needs to be held in balance with whatever needs to be said about the sins of Christendom, and we also need to reckon with what justice and rights are as moral issues, thus tied to foundational questions about the IS-OUGHT gap and the world-root IS that grounds ought. For, might and manipulation make 'right' is a manifest absurdity. KFkairosfocus
July 27, 2015
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KF Interesting as always.
Such pivot on things like, what is a right and why do we find ourselves under the government of ought. Dismissing that, especially on evolutionary materialism, undermines mind and responsible freedom. Recognising rights, justice etc as objectively binding calls out for grounding ought in an is that can bear its weight, and that points to the inherently good creator God as that ground. Which will anger many in our day, especially as that re-opens the challenge of the gospel they would dismiss.
That's true. What I think happens, however, is that the focus on rights is much easier than the focus on obligations. Some theologians argue, in a sense, for universal rights of a sort, meaning an even greater tolerance for any possible human activity. That is obviously unsustainable when it comes to the right to commit violence against society or the church itself. But obligations create distinctions again. What are we required to do? What will the government force us to do? This is something for Christians to solve for themselves, as I see it. Otherwise, it becomes too difficult to translate the message of obligations to the non-believing public.Silver Asiatic
July 27, 2015
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anthropic: If enforce orthodoxy means force people to go to a particular church, this hasn’t been true for centuries. But Christianity traces back millennia. Per our point, it was the rise of strong balancing institutions that ended the forced conformity. anthropic: In the US, and in the American colonies before the US began, never. That's false. For instance, church attendance was mandatory among the Puritans. And tithing was required into the 19th century.Zachriel
July 27, 2015
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SA, Interesting points. I suggest there are deeper, worldview and cultural agenda roots at work. Such pivot on things like, what is a right and why do we find ourselves under the government of ought. Dismissing that, especially on evolutionary materialism, undermines mind and responsible freedom. Recognising rights, justice etc as objectively binding calls out for grounding ought in an is that can bear its weight, and that points to the inherently good creator God as that ground. Which will anger many in our day, especially as that re-opens the challenge of the gospel they would dismiss. But, we need to realise the peril our civilisation is in, and frankly, I don't know that it is not already too late. I recoil in horror from the likely price we are going to pay in blood and pain for our collective folly. KFkairosfocus
July 27, 2015
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I think the American founders assumed that churches would preserve the traditional and well-known teachings for a majority of Americans, and therefore the government could tread lightly on that topic. While there were politicians who didn't hesitate to offer Christian sermons as part of their political platform, most felt that the churches were doing a good-enough job and the majority of people would simply follow Gospel teachings and bring that with them into the voting booth or courts of law, etc. The churches, interestingly however, looked to the secularized government and instead of faith shaping the nation, the churches ended up being shaped by the very secularism that was intended to help the churches flourish. There was always an uneasy truce between the various factions within Christianity, and secularism provided a very easy solution to that on-going conflict. By removing religious distinctions in public and reducing Christianity to the minimal common element, there would be more unity and less conflict. The American government supported and promoted that, not for a sinister motive, but because it made for a more peaceful electorate. For a few short decades, that Christian-reductionism worked fairly well. There was an ecumenical commonality which kept disputes at a minimum. The world wars helped to create a social unity as well. By the 60s, an even 'better' and simpler solution arrived -- and that was merely a further reduction of distinctive characteristics of Christianity in favor of "good social works" (civil rights, end of the war, poverty reduction). What was brewing in parallel to all of this simplification of Christian belief was the most obvious and simplest solution - the dismissal of religious belief entirely. Thus we have the secular state, tolerating religion, but prefering a kind of happy unity of non-belief. Thus, the spread of atheism today. Christianity is therefore equated merely with some sort of theism. Thus the Judaeo-Christian idea (bringing together two radically different belief-sets) reduces down to a belief in God and some kind of reference to the ten commandments. This could never have worked anyway, but the wild card in the mixture has been the introduction of eastern (Islamic mainly) religious practice into the West, which does not conform to ecumenism or reductionism. For some reason, Islam is not considered Judaeo-Christian (although it is a Christian variant) but that's only because it was so unfamiliar for such a long time. The American founders really only had to deal with Anglican religious differences primarily and the separation of church and state worked fairly well within that context. There was a respect among separated Protestant groups, and it certainly took a long while, but respect was granted to Catholics in the U.S. over time also. But the price for that ecumenical tolerance was quite high. Militant secularism (now atheism) walked into the gap left by ambiguous Christian teaching. In failing to promote their own identity (for the admirable motive of not wanting to separate from other Christians), Americans tend to identify with cultural secularism, which is the religion of non-religion in many ways. There are continual signs of a new sense of identity within Christian sects, and as I see it, this is a good thing. It's mostly done with good lessons-learned from ecumenism. That is, being proud of one's heritage without using it aggressively to separate from others. This is causing many Protestants to examine their roots more carefully and become more historically oriented - and this also has a good effect, as I see it.Silver Asiatic
July 27, 2015
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F/N: It seems to be time to preliminarily identify and then correct what we could call the fallacy of secular[ist] utopian democracy. For, I cannot but observe from the above and linked threads of discussion here at UD, that in a context of directly cited evidence of the material and indeed decisive Christian contribution to the rise of modern liberty and democracy -- including pivotal, historic state papers and underlying thought from leading thinkers rooted in the philosophical, theological and specifically biblical concepts of good and just government under God as a major facet of nationhood under God -- there is a consistent refusal of secularists to engage actual evidence in favour of fear mongering and what ever more sounds like a visceral hostility to God and to ethical theism, especially its Judaeo-Christian form as largely synthesised by Paul of Tarsus. Perhaps the most ironic point is when there was an admission that people in general are finite, fallible and corruptible i.e. morally struggling and too often blinded by endarkenment (in which "the light in you is darkness"), there was a failure to recognise what this implies in general and for the course of history: a perpetual struggle against the march of folly, corruption and wrong, often claiming to be wisdom, integrity and the right. So, what is to be explained is not corrupt, incompetent and abusive or oppressive government. No, that is the natural outcome of the struggle we all face. (And it is yet another indicator of a point made by C S Lewis: the fallenness of man is a Christian doctrine you can learn or confirm to be so from the newspapers.) What needs explanation is reformation and sustained genuine progress of justice and liberty with accountability. And patently, modern democracy arose amidst the struggles of a time and era we still term the Reformation; found its first major success in North America and Australia (and somewhat more gradually in Britain), then spread wider and wider in the face of major geo-strategic struggles, with vast advances and retreats only over the past century and especially the past few decades. So, logically, we need to seek its roots in the relevant time, place and movements of reform. When we do so, lo and behold, the answers are not those of the grand narrative of evolutionary materialist largely atheistical scientism and secularist humanism. No, the answers lie in the Judaeo-Christian form of ethical theism and the reformation era concept (per Vindicae, Lex Rex and other key sources, deeply rooted in biblical theology) of nationhood under God and just government under God. As, is classically and powerfully summed up in the US Declaration of Independence, of 1776, which after first highlighting the root of law and reform as "the laws of Nature and of Nature's God" then magnificently summarises in the words of the fifty-odd founders . . . Jefferson was by no means sole and ideationally original author:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15, 13:1 – 10], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .
These words, at that time and place lay out the foundation of principles for a transformation of government, creating the framework for modern, representational democracy that balances rights, freedoms and responsibilities and the resulting self-government and thriving of a free people. Never mind the struggles, injustices, and failings of the founders, to have the insight and courage to lay out such a proposition was a magnificent achievement. An achievement that, first, explicitly reflects Judaeo-Christian ethical theism that pivots on a balance between justice under God in light of rights he endows and duties he so writes in us that they are self-evident and the free and informed consent of the governed. And second, it starts from the need to confront stubbornly abusive government by putting forward an orderly alternative, new, legitimate, credible government supported by the consent of the governed. That is, it is a classic case of ethically theistic governmental reformation backed by revolutionary resistance to increasingly abusive and stubborn misgovernment trending towards tyranny. As in, a long train of abuses and usurpations. Where, when the design of an agenda becomes evident, it is manifest that there is always a more and more factor towards an end. And so prudence points to remonstrance and petition before stronger measures; in our day the general election providing a peaceful means based on onward and ongoing reform as a principle of good government. But of course, that presumes a well informed people enjoying freedom of conscience, expression, association, the press and more. Likewise, it presumes that there is such a balance that a people can come to a free, responsible and reasonable conclusion as to circumstances, trends and indicated feasible reforms. And, it presumes that the critical end of government is the civil peace of justice, duly balancing and guarding rights, freedoms and responsibilities. Which implies that the state wields the sword in defence of that civil peace of justice. (Which, BTW, is where all of this current exchange began, with an attack on Christians for biblically supporting from Rom 12 & 13 the principle that the civil authority holds the sword of justice. That's frightening, was the cry, with a leap to taint by invidiously comparing fundies and islamIST terrorists or the like. As though, there is not a whole other side to the story, as is outlined in the OP above that secularist advocates are so patently unwilling to even acknowledge much less cogently address. Rendering the one sided litanies of talking points being trotted out distractive, unfair, atmosphere poisoning and fundamentally fallacious.) We must also highlight that evolutionary materialist secularism undermines responsible, rational freedom, and is therefore a self-falsifying ideology that is inimical to responsible, lawful, democratic self-government towards justice. For that, a clear case in point comes from Provine in his well known 1998 U Tenn Darwin Day address:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . . . Without free will, justification for revenge disappears [--> notice, the fallaciously loaded equating of the sanctions and sword of justice with revenge, an utterly different and destructive thing] and rehabilitation is the main job of judicial systems and prisons. [[NB: As C. S Lewis warned, in the end, this means: reprogramming through new conditioning determined by the power groups controlling the society and its prisons.] We will all live in a better society when the myth of free will is dispelled . . .
In short, this leading Darwinist, on Darwin Day and in the name of Darwin, announced to one and all the fundamental breach between evolutionary materialist scientism and responsible, rational freedom. But, Mr Provine, if we are not under moral government the testimony of our interior lives is a delusion. If we are not responsibly free we cannot freely choose what is reasonable, follow a warrant freely to confirm knowledge, and so cannot be reasonable. And if there is no responsible freedom, there can be no just judgement and justice. The utopian dream of a better society of the fundamentally un-free collapses in self-refutation. Kyle Butt was fully justified to reply:
Provine’s . . . [[address] centered on his fifth statement regarding human free will. Prior to delving into the “meat” of his message, however, he noted: “The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them” (Provine, 1998). It is clear then, from Provine’s comments, that he believes naturalistic evolution has no way to produce an “ultimate foundation for ethics.” And it is equally as clear that this sentiment was so apparent to “modern naturalistic evolutionists” that Mr. Provine did not feel it even needed to be defended . . . . [However, i]f it is true that naturalistic evolution cannot provide an ultimate foundation for determining the difference between actions that are right and ones that are wrong, then the door is wide open for subjective speculation about all human behavior . . . . When the concept of God is eradicated from a philosophy or society, that philosophy or society cuts off its ability to make any moral decisions. In turn, it forfeits the ability to “eradicate” such actions as rape, theft, murder, or any other immoral vice. When the Bible succinctly stated, “The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God,’ they are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none who does good” (Psalm 14:1), it offered accurate divine commentary on every person, society, or philosophy that would abandon the notion of God—“They are corrupt.” [Rape and Evolution, Apologetics Press, 2005.]
But, sadly, that something fails the test of good sense does not mean that it cannot be ideologically persuasive and politically powerful. For, a fallacy is a persuasive but misleading argument or communication. So, we must take the measure of such evolutionary materialist secularism and its agendas, and we must reckon soberly and prudently with the clear signs that this is a march of ruinous, amoral, manipulative and too often increasingly abusive folly. It is time to stand up and say no to such, and it is time to challenge adherents, promoters and enthusiasts with cogent facts and corrective arguments. It is time to insist that such acknowledge well documented history on the actual idea roots and key movements behind the rise of modern liberty and democratic, progressively reformational self government guided by and guarding justice. True progressivism, not false. And last but not least, it is time to address the underlying premise of our being under moral government, the grounding of OUGHT in a world-foundational IS capable of properly bearing that awesome weight. In the classic words of the American founders:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed
KFkairosfocus
July 26, 2015
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SB: What does it mean for a Christian who prevails politically to “enforce orthodoxy?” Zachriel
Most of Christendom from the fall of Rome to the modern era.
Let's try it again. What does your term "enforce orthodoxy" mean? Which U.S. Christians enforced orthodoxy by that definition and when did they do it?StephenB
July 26, 2015
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Carpathian
That would mean 3 million atheist murderers for each Christian murderer. If you are simply looking at a regime that was secular, then the figure also does not apply as the population does not have a ratio of 3 million atheists per Christian. Atheists in most parts of the world are out-numbered by religious followers. Atheists may make up 1/3 of the population of any given country. That means that Christians in these countries carried out the orders that resulted in murder. They are accomplices and the direct cause of those murder figures you are quoting.
I don't think you understand the argument.StephenB
July 26, 2015
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harry "As StephenB eloquently made clear, the mass murder perpetrated upon innocent humanity by the regimes of modern history that were hostile to theism make all the combined crimes of Christians over the centuries look like a petty misdemeanor by comparison." Carpathian
Not true at all.
Most definitely true.
The most represented group in the second world war were Christians. France and Italy shared the same Pope. Priests on both sides prayed to the same God to help them kill those on the other side. If all religious groups represented during WW2 told their followers to refuse to fight, the war would have ground to a halt.
All your comments about World War II are irrelevant. I don't think you understand the argument that is being made.StephenB
July 26, 2015
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Carpathian
It’s correct because The Ten Commandments forbid actions.
A spiritual leader cannot stop a war by "forbidding" the war parties to wage war, or by quoting the Ten Commandments, or by warning them about hell.StephenB
July 26, 2015
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StephenB:
With that omission, a secularist is 3,000,000 more times to murder you than a Christian.
That makes no sense at all. That would mean 3 million atheist murderers for each Christian murderer. If you are simply looking at a regime that was secular, then the figure also does not apply as the population does not have a ratio of 3 million atheists per Christian. Atheists in most parts of the world are out-numbered by religious followers. Atheists may make up 1/3 of the population of any given country. That means that Christians in these countries carried out the orders that resulted in murder. They are accomplices and the direct cause of those murder figures you are quoting.Carpathian
July 26, 2015
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harry:
As StephenB eloquently made clear, the mass murder perpetrated upon innocent humanity by the regimes of modern history that were hostile to theism make all the combined crimes of Christians over the centuries look like a petty misdemeanor by comparison.
Not true at all. The most represented group in the second world war were Christians. France and Italy shared the same Pope. Priests on both sides prayed to the same God to help them kill those on the other side. If all religious groups represented during WW2 told their followers to refuse to fight, the war would have ground to a halt.Carpathian
July 26, 2015
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Z 71 "StephenB: What does it mean for a Christian who prevails politically to “enforce orthodoxy?” Most of Christendom from the fall of Rome to the modern era." Uh, you didn't answer SB's question, Z. If enforce orthodoxy means force people to go to a particular church, this hasn't been true for centuries. In the US, and in the American colonies before the US began, never. By "modern era" you must mean starting centuries ago. Right?anthropic
July 26, 2015
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StephenB:
Carpathian: Spiritual leaders forbid actions and mete out punishment. StephenB: Incorrect and irrelevant
It's correct because The Ten Commandments forbid actions. This is only irrelevant if you believe there is no such thing as the hell that the Bible describes as the destination for those who do not follow the teachings of the Christian faith.Carpathian
July 26, 2015
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StephenB: harry was not speaking that way since he didn’t use those words and could not possibly know in advance what you would mean by them when you finally decided to inject them into the discussion. Unless he was referring to a situation where Christians could actually choose to enforce orthodoxy, then the statement was vacuous. StephenB: What does it mean for a Christian who prevails politically to “enforce orthodoxy?” Most of Christendom from the fall of Rome to the modern era.Zachriel
July 26, 2015
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Zachriel
However, they have attempted to enforce orthodoxy in the past when they had sufficient power to do so, and that is the sense in which we understood harry to be speaking.
Obviously, harry was not speaking that way since he didn't use those words and could not possibly know in advance what you would mean by them when you finally decided to inject them into the discussion. What does it mean for a Christian who prevails politically to "enforce orthodoxy?" When did such a thing ever happen?StephenB
July 26, 2015
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StephenB: There was a time, when Christians did, in fact, prevail politically in the United States. There's two senses of "prevail" being used. If harry only meant prevail in the sense of winning elections in a modern, constitutionally limited government, then Christians do not attempt to force people to attend church because such a law would never be held consistent with the constitution. However, they have attempted to enforce orthodoxy in the past when they had sufficient power to do so, and that is the sense in which we understood harry to be speaking.Zachriel
July 26, 2015
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As before, the whole idea of Carpathian in regards to the first amendment is to replace it with "thy statements shall be forced by evidence to their conclusion, or else the government will punish you" No evolutionist accepts the validity of subjectivity, opinion, they only do objectivity, facts. They have no idea whatsoever about expressing emotions with free will in reference to the spirit.mohammadnursyamsu
July 26, 2015
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kairosfocus @69
The attempt to sever declaration and constitution is ill-advised and fatal.
Right you are. It is also illogical to separate the reason for self government (the Declaration of Independence), from the blueprint for self-government (The Constitution). The purpose for the blueprint informs the design of the blueprint. Without the fundamental question, why are we doing this? there can be no follow up question, how are we going to do it?StephenB
July 26, 2015
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Zachriel
It’s hardly a contradiction.
It is obviously a contradiction: ---Harry said that when Christians prevail politically, they do not force others to attend Christian schools. ---You said that history "contradicts" his statement, indicating that Christians do, in fact, exert that kind of force when they prevail politically. Yet you also claim that Christians do, at present, prevail politically, and you also acknowledge that they do not, at present, force others to attend Christian schools. So you clearly contradicted yourself by first saying that politically-prevailing Christians force others to attend Christian schools, and then acknowledging, under scrutiny, that politically-prevailing Christians do not force others to attend Christian schools.StephenB
July 26, 2015
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Harry, I thought it helpful to enlarge your citation from == better link on edit -- John Quincy Adams' Jubilee of the Constitution address -- even that choice of anniversary and term is pregnant with Biblical, covenantal significance -- to the NY Historical Society, April 30 1839:
Of that strife the victorious combatant had been Britain. She had conquered the provinces of France. She had expelled her rival totally from the continent over which, bounding herself by the Mississippi, she was thenceforth to hold divided empire only with Spain. She had acquired undisputed control over the Indian tribes, still tenanting the forests unexplored by the European man. She had established an uncontested monopoly of the commerce of all her colonies. But forgetting all the warnings of preceding ages – forgetting the lessons written in the blood of her own children, through centuries of departed time, she undertook to tax the people of the colonies without their consent. Resistance, instantaneous, unconcerted, sympathetic, inflexible resistance like an electric shock startled and roused the people of all the English colonies on this continent. This was the first signal of the North American Union. The struggle was for chartered rights – for English liberties – for the cause of Algernon Sidney and John Hambden – for trial by jury – the Habeas Corpus and Magna Charta. But the English lawyers had decided that Parliament was omnipotent – and Parliament in their omnipotence, instead of trial by jury and the Habeas Corpus enacted admiralty courts in England to try Americans for offenses charged against them as committed in America – instead of the privileges of Magna Charta, nullified the charter itself of Massachusetts Bay; shut up the port of Boston; sent armies and navies to keep the peace, and teach the colonies that John Hambden was a rebel, and Algernon Sidney a traitor. English liberties had failed them. From the omnipotence of Parliament the colonists appealed to the rights of man and the omnipotence of the God of battles. Union! Union! was the instinctive and simultaneous cry throughout the land. Their Congress, assembled at Philadelphia, once – twice had petitioned the king; had remonstrated to Parliament; had addressed the people of Britain, for the rights of Englishmen – in vain. Fleets and armies, the blood of Lexington, and the fires of Charlestown and Falmouth, had been the answer to petition, remonstrance and address. Independence was declared. The colonies were transformed into States. Their inhabitants were proclaimed to be one people, renouncing all allegiance to the British crown; all co-patriotism with the British nation; all claims to chartered rights as Englishmen. Thenceforth their charter was the Declaration of Independence. Their rights, the natural rights of mankind. Their government, such as should be instituted by themselves, under the solemn mutual pledges of perpetual union, founded on the self-evident truths proclaimed in the Declaration. The Declaration of Independence was issued, in the excruciating agonies of a civil war, and by that war independence was to be maintained. Six long years it raged with unabated fury, and the Union was yet no more than a mutual pledge of faith, and a mutual participation of common sufferings and common dangers. The omnipotence of the British Parliament was vanquished. The independence of the United States of America, was not granted, but recognized. The nation had “assumed among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station, to which the laws of nature, and of nature’s God, entitled it” – but the one, united people, had yet NO GOVERNMENT. In the enthusiasm of their first spontaneous, unstipulated, unpremeditated union, they had flattered themselves that no general government would be required. As separate states they were all agreed that they should constitute and govern themselves. The revolution under which they were gasping for life, the war which was carrying desolation into all their dwellings, and mourning into every family, had been kindled by the abuse of power – the power of government. An invincible repugnance to the delegation of power, had thus been generated, by the very course of events which had rendered it necessary; and the more indispensable it became, the more awakened was the jealousy and the more intense was the distrust by which it was to be circumscribed. They relaxed their union into a league of friendship between sovereign and independent states. They constituted a Congress, with powers co-extensive with the nation, but so hedged and hemmed in with restrictions, that the limitation seemed to be the general rule, and the grant the occasional exception. The articles of confederation, subjected to philosophical analysis, seem to be little more than an enumeration of the functions of a national government which the congress constituted by the instrument was not authorized to perform. There was avowedly no executive power. The nation fell into an atrophy . . .
It is patent that the Constitution sets about (on the second main attempt!) the delivery of sound and safe government as the 2nd para of the declaration envisions, and so the dating of the US not to 17th Sept 1787 in the year of our Lord, but instead that is seen as being in the 13th year of independence speaks. Speaks volumes. And let us note, fighting had been going on since 1775, but that is not the date. It is July 4 1776 which is the date. And similarly, it is on the strength of that declaration (and battlefield success) that the alliance with France secured the military victory. The attempt to sever declaration and constitution is ill-advised and fatal. KFkairosfocus
July 26, 2015
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StephenB: I catch you in a contradiction It's hardly a contradiction. "Prevailing politically" in a constitutional democracy is hardly the same as having unlimited power. Bush prevailed politically in 2000, but didn't thereby acquire unlimited power. Christians hold the vast majority of seats in the U.S. Congress, so are hardly without representation. Nonetheless, they are limited in their power by strong institutions, such as the constitution.Zachriel
July 26, 2015
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StephenB: I am glad, however, that you are now saying that Christians do not prevail politically … Zachriel
They prevail politically, but are restrained by strong balancing institutions.
Zachriel, you are a riot. I catch you in a contradiction, and you try to recover by having it both ways, Christians are in control, except that they are not. What is it like to be "liberated" from the law of non-contradiction.StephenB
July 26, 2015
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Zachriel
Yeah. [Christians] They are *only* 90% of the Congress.
So, now you are back to saying that Christians prevail politically, which would indicate that harry is obviously right. When Christians are in power, they do not enact laws forcing anyone to attend a Christian church. So your objection to the contrary was totally irrational. Your other comments are equally irrational.StephenB
July 26, 2015
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Seversky: I see nothing irrational about wanting to be protected from having other people’s religious irrationalities imposed on one. Good for you. Who is going to do the protecting, and why, and based on what standard?Mung
July 26, 2015
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StephenB: Everyone, Supreme Court Justices first, were to respect and follow the “natural moral law.” If you are referring to Obergefell v. Hodges, the Supreme Court ruled on the equal protection and due process clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment, an important limitation of government power. StephenB: There was a time, when Christians did, in fact, prevail politically in the United States. Yeah. They are *only* 90% of the Congress. StephenB: During that era, they didn’t force anyone to attend a Christian church. They did require tithing. In any case, the federal government was limited by strong balancing institutions. Again, the precept was if they were not so limited. StephenB: I am glad, however, that you are now saying that Christians do not prevail politically ... They prevail politically, but are restrained by strong balancing institutions. harry: The Declaration of independence and the Constitution of the United States, are parts of one consistent whole, founded upon one and the same theory of government Theory, not law. In any case, you apparently have abandoned your previous claim suggesting Christians won't abuse power to enforce conformity. Indeed, much of the later discussion seems to advocate exactly that.Zachriel
July 26, 2015
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harry: "the mass murder perpetrated upon innocent humanity by the regimes of modern history that were hostile to theism make all the combined crimes of Christians over the centuries look like a petty misdemeanor by comparison." Zachriel:
That doesn’t salvage your claim, which was “If the Christians prevailed politically in the United States and could enact any legislation they wanted, there wouldn’t then be laws forcing everyone to attend a Christian church.” You might argue that American Christians have learned from their history, but power has a tendency to change people.
There was a time, when Christians did, in fact, prevail politically in the United States. During that era, they didn't force anyone to attend a Christian church. They didn't even try. I am glad, however, that you are now saying that Christians do not prevail politically, which is, of course, true---and different from your earlier claim:
More than 90% of the U.S. Congress is Christian, with most of the remainder made up of other religious adherents, such as Judaism and Islam."
I guess that you are willing to argue either way depending on circumstances. If you want it to be the case, then Christians are calling the shots. If you don't want it to be the case, then they are not. Such are the fruits of subjectivism Historically, the number of deaths caused is a good objective measure of who abuses power and to what extent. Secularists do most of the killing. Even at that, we don't need to study history to know the difference. Just observe the ways in which secularists isolate, punish, and slander anyone who dares to disagree with their atheistic paradigms.StephenB
July 26, 2015
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harry, @59, beautifully expressed--and true! The Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution cannot logically be separated. The latter explains how we are supposed to govern ourselves, while the former explains why we do it. We were, indeed, betrayed (not too strong of a word) by corrupt jurists, who arrogated unto themselves the power to remake the law according to their own personal whim, the very thing our founding fathers wanted to avoid. Everyone, Supreme Court Justices first, were to respect and follow the "natural moral law."StephenB
July 26, 2015
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harry: If the Christians prevailed politically in the United States and could enact any legislation they wanted, there wouldn’t then be laws forcing everyone to attend a Christian church. Seversky: If that were the case, why did it require Supreme Court decisions to put an end to compulsory prayer services in public schools? As kairosfocus makes extremely clear, the United States was founded by a generation that believed they had formed a nation "under God" the foundational principles of which were proclaimed in their Declaration of Independence from England. John Quincy Adams, son of Founder John Adams, must have been very familiar with the intentions of his father and the other Founders, growing up as he did under their influence. Contrary to popular indoctrination that is mistaken for education (as in "the DoI is not a legal document"), J. Q. Adams, in his Jubilee of the Constitution discourse, insists that the people who had declared their independence had as their charter
the Declaration of Independence. Their rights, the natural rights of mankind. Their government, such as should be instituted by themselves, under the solemn mutual pledges of perpetual union, founded on the self-evident truths proclaimed in the Declaration.
The Declaration is our primary, foundational legal document. Its "self-evident truths" were based upon a belief in God as the Creator (`All people are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness'), God as the Lawgiver (`the laws of nature and nature's God'), God as the Judge of humanity (`appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world'), and God the Protector (`with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence'). Adams also asserts that
The Declaration of independence and the Constitution of the United States, are parts of one consistent whole, founded upon one and the same theory of government ...
In a democracy founded as a nation under God, in communities where the vast majority were Christians, it should surprise no one that the schools began the day with prayer, and that many openly taught students from the Bible. This was clearly the intention of the government. In 1777, Congress, perceiving a national shortage of "Bibles for our schools, and families, and for the public worship of God in our churches," announced that they "desired to have a Bible printed under their care & by their encouragement" and ordered 20,000 copies of the Bible to be imported "into the different ports of the States of the Union." In the absence of an agenda, the Supreme Court would have ruled that anyone in such communities who was not a Christian and did not want their children exposed to Christian prayer could have their children arrive at school after the morning prayers, and spend time in the school library during classes providing Christian instruction. That would have been reasonable. That would have respected democracy and the rights of the majority. But the Court did have an anti-theistic, anti-Christian agenda. So they ruled the way they did. We certainly need to protect minority rights, but the very basis of those rights are the same as the intrinsic rights of all humanity proclaimed in our blatantly theistic Declaration of Independence, which is our primary and foundational legal document. These rights have been willfully rejected by a Supreme Court that has overthrown the government established by the Founders, and destroyed the very intellectual foundation of minority rights, while claiming to be protecting them. Minority and majority rights have become nothing more than whatever the Supreme Court decides they are at the moment, with no intellectual foundation whatsoever. They are no more and no less than the ever-changing whims of the Supreme Court. So, putting "an end to compulsory prayer services in public schools" was not required at all. It is what a treasonous Supreme Court arbitrarily imposed upon Americans to further its own atheistic, anti-Christian agenda, the rights of the majority be damned. The minority certainly have no secure rights when not even the majority has any rights except those conferred upon them black-robed barbarians who happen to comprise a majority of the Supreme Court.harry
July 26, 2015
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Seversky, I point out again, the distinction between education and indoctrination. And, I again point out the state documents and linked major documents in the OP, on that other side that I find is so often suppressed and distorted in pursuit of a one-sided litany against ethical theism in general and the Judaeo-Christian heritage in particular. KFkairosfocus
July 26, 2015
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